Matthew and Jack sit down with Danielle Allen, who wants the United States to undergo a “democracy renovation” so that the house that the founders built responds to the needs of the present day. Allen, a political philosopher and scholar of public policy at Harvard, marries theory and practice in her work. She covers both in this conversation, touching on her theory of justice, her campaign for governor of Massachusetts, and the urgent need for democracy renovation. The path forward, in her eyes, involves reforming democratic institutions to achieve political equality, building a cross-ideological supermajority in support of constitutional democracy, and reviving the lost art of respectful political disagreement. 

Danielle Allen is the James Bryant Conant University Professor at Harvard and the director of the Allen Lab for Democracy Renovation. She is the author of several books, including “Justice by Means of Democracy,” “Democracy in the Time of Coronavirus,” and “Cuz: The Life and Times of Michael A.” She is also the founder and president of the nonprofit Partners in Democracy and a Washington Post contributing columnist.

Jonathan is also the author of the 2022 book This Will Not Pass: Trump, Biden, and the Battle for America’s Future. Check out his political column here. It’s a treat.

In this episode, we talk about Bo’s journey from a shy and conflict-averse child to an expert debater, we discuss how to apply the virtues of debating to our real-world disagreements, and we ask Bo how he understands the role of arguments in journalism and the law. 

Like good debaters, we also think critically about debating and pose some tough questions about the activity’s limitations. Ultimately, we’re persuaded and inspired by Bo’s conclusion. Debating, with all its shortcomings and imperfections, promises something special: to help restore humility and civility to our arguments, to help us grapple with the pressing political and ethical questions of the day, and to give its participants a special space in which to listen and be heard.

Introduction: 00:00

Bo’s childhood: 02:53

Bo’s rhetorically ambitious style: 07:57

Effect of debating on political views/arguments: 11:20

Frameworks for real-life arguments: 18:21

Bo’s responses to criticism of debate: 24:42

Generative AI’s threat to persuasion: 42:07

Arguments in the law: 47:23

Advice to Debaters and Non-Debaters: 52:46

Professor Adatto is a Scholar in Residence at Harvard’s Mahindra Humanities Center and a Lecturer on Social Studies. In addition to Picture Perfect, she is the author of the children’s book Babayan and the Magic Star. Her work has appeared in the New York Times, the Atlantic, the New Republic, Time magazine, and other national publications, and her writings on the media helped spark a national debate about coverage of presidential campaigns.

Introduction: 0:00

Political photo ops: 4:12

Ethical relationship between photographer and subject: 12:38

Photographing war and suffering: 20:37

Persuasive rhetoric in politics: 26:01

Political rhetoric in popular music: 34:52

Babayan Story Project 41:08

We highly recommend subscribing to Matthew’s Substack, Slow Boring, and reading his book One Billion Americans.

0:00:00 Introductions

00:00:50 21-year-old Matt Yglesias + evolving views

00:09:37-00:15:21 Substack blogging

00:15:21 Political messaging

00:30:07 Political polarization

00:42:09 Crime

00:56:00 Higher education

01:03:39 Happiness and optimism

*Note*: Jack incorrectly called out Chuck Grassley. The Senator who asked Zuck how Facebook makes money was Orrin Hatch, not Grassley. Grassley’s Twitter account is still funny though.