Skillen pushes back on the idea that faith is something we practice once a week. Instead, he invites us to see it as something that shapes every part of our lives. The Sabbath, in this conversation, isn’t just a day off—it’s a gift. It’s an invitation from God to rest, to reflect, and to reconnect with what He’s doing in the world.

By the end, it challenges you to think differently — not just about the Sabbath, but about how you engage with life as a whole. It’s a reminder that faith isn’t a compartment; it’s meant to touch everything.

Takeaways:

1. The discussion emphasizes that the meaning of history is not solely tied to the American narrative or the advancement of intellectual enlightenment.
2. Christians are encouraged to perceive their lives as integral to God's overarching story, which necessitates a holistic engagement beyond a single day of worship.
3. The concept of Sabbath is explored as not merely a day of rest, but as a paradigm for understanding the fullness of life and creation's purpose.
4. The dialogue highlights the danger of reducing the Christian message to a mere escapist theology, advocating for a more expansive understanding of human vocation within God's creation.
5. Skillen and Fleming argue that our understanding of sin and salvation must encompass the stewardship of creation and the responsibilities inherent in our various vocations.
6. The conversation calls for a reevaluation of how Christians engage with the secular world, emphasizing that every aspect of life, including politics and work, reflects God's glory and purpose.

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Together, they wrestle with whether we’re actually seeing the end of secularization as we’ve known it, and what that could mean for the church moving forward. If the cultural ground is shifting, how should faith communities respond?

The conversation leans into that question—inviting Christians to pay closer attention to both the spiritual hunger and the institutional challenges around us. It’s not just about reacting, but about understanding the moment we’re in and engaging it thoughtfully.

At the end of the day, this episode is an invitation to step back and consider how attitudes toward faith and spirituality are changing—and how we, as a community, can navigate that with wisdom, clarity, and hope.

Takeaways:

1. The discussion emphasizes the shifting narratives that influence contemporary thought, particularly those that often go unnoticed yet significantly affect people's beliefs and behaviors.
2. Secularism is not merely declining; it is morphing, leading to new forms of spiritual exploration that challenge traditional paradigms.
3. The hosts advocate for a compassionate approach in church leadership, emphasizing the need for understanding the burdens faced by congregants in a rapidly changing world.
4. There is a burgeoning curiosity towards spirituality among younger generations, which could present a unique opportunity for churches to engage with these individuals meaningfully.
5. The podcast highlights the importance of embodying the gospel through communal living and relational connections that extend beyond mere Sunday gatherings.
6. As modern challenges intensify, the need for churches to adapt and nurture a deeper understanding of faith and community becomes increasingly essential.

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Emerson shares why these conversations can be especially tough for long-time Christians—people who care deeply about their faith but may have settled into familiar ways of thinking. They also talk about how living in a racialized society shapes not just our personal views, but the very systems and structures around us.

More than anything, this episode feels like an invitation—an encouragement to pause, reflect, and take meaningful steps forward. It’s a call for the church to grow into a more honest, inclusive, and beautifully diverse community that better reflects the heart of God’s kingdom.

Takeaways:

1. The conversation emphasizes the necessity of expanding one's understanding of the gospel and the kingdom of God, particularly in a racially divided society.
2. Divided by Faith highlights the importance of recognizing structural racism as an integral part of American society, which often goes unaddressed by well-intentioned individuals.
3. The need for churches to reflect the diversity of their neighborhoods is crucial for fostering a more inclusive community that embodies the kingdom of God.
4. The podcast discusses how individualistic perspectives can limit the understanding of collective issues, urging listeners to consider communal faith experiences in a diverse context.

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Drawing from the Apostle Paul’s teaching in Ephesians, they discuss how the Gospel forms a new humanity that breaks down ethnic divisions and calls the church to live out that reality in a world increasingly shaped by polarization. The conversation also challenges individualistic versions of the Gospel that can unintentionally reinforce segregation within church communities.

Dr. Gray emphasizes that the unity of the church is not just a theological idea but a lived reality shaped by love and empowered by the Holy Spirit. As they address the cultural pressures surrounding Christian nationalism, Fleming and Gray call the church to rediscover its identity as a foretaste of God’s Kingdom—a community where people from every nation, tribe, and tongue find belonging and purpose in Christ.

Takeaways:

1. Travis Michael Fleming and Derwin Gray emphasize the essential nature of the church as a new creation community, transcending ethnic divisions and embodying unity in Christ.
2. The discussion highlights the biblical foundation of multi-ethnic church dynamics, rooted in the teachings of the Apostle Paul and the inclusive nature of the Gospel.
3. Derwin Gray articulates the importance of the church reflecting God's covenant promise to Abraham, which includes a diverse family of believers from all nations and backgrounds.
4. Both speakers address the contemporary challenges of Christian nationalism and the need for the church to represent a countercultural model of reconciliation and love in a divided society.
5. The conversation underscores that the Gospel is not merely about individual salvation but rather about participating in a collective identity as the body of Christ, a community marked by grace.
6. Gray and Fleming call for a reformation in how the church approaches community, emphasizing the necessity of embodying the values of the Kingdom of God in everyday interactions.

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Travis Michael Fleming talks with Brad Edwards about his book The Reason for Church and why politics has replaced the church as a primary source of meaning in modern life. They also discuss how the Boomer-era embrace of market theology turned the church into a consumer product—and how recovering a deeper vision of the church may be more necessary now than ever.

Takeaways:

1. Politics have increasingly become a significant source of meaning and purpose in our lives, shaping our identities and beliefs.
2. The church must be seen not merely as an institution, but as a vital community that facilitates genuine spiritual growth and connection.
3. Individualism has profoundly influenced contemporary attitudes toward the church, fostering an anti-institutional sentiment that challenges communal faith practices.
4. The failure to engage with cultural assumptions can result in a diminished understanding of the church's role as a transformative force in society.
5. A robust ecclesiology of exile is necessary for modern Christians to navigate and thrive in a culturally diverse and often antagonistic landscape.
6. Generous hospitality is essential for the church to cultivate relationships and demonstrate the love of Christ in a fragmented world.

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Dr. Wright articulates a comprehensive understanding of the Great Commission, showing that it calls believers to a life of obedience that encompasses all dimensions of existence—spiritual, social, and ethical. This missioholistic approach to discipleship is emphasized throughout the conversation, where Dr. Wright challenges the notion that mission is solely about conversion, insisting that it also involves the transformation of life and society in accordance with Kingdom values.

Dr. Wright's addresses previous critiques and expands upon the missional hermeneutics that have emerged since the book's first publication. Dr. Wright's insights reveal the necessity of understanding the continuity of God's redemptive plan, which includes both Israel and the Church in a dynamic relationship rather than a replacement theology. This profound realization invites listeners to reconsider their own engagement in mission, urging them to reflect on how their lives can align with God's overarching narrative of redemption and restoration in a broken world.

Takeaways:

• In the realm of discipleship, it is imperative to align our actions with our beliefs, as articulated by both Jesus and the Apostle Paul.
• The gospel, while freely given by God's grace, demands a life of obedience and submission to Jesus as Lord over every aspect of life.
• The mission of God encompasses the entire narrative of Scripture, revealing a purpose that extends beyond mere evangelism to the reconciliation of all creation.
• Understanding the mission of God requires a holistic approach, integrating both faith and works, as seen in the teachings of Jesus and the writings of Paul.
• The second edition of 'The Mission of God' addresses critiques from the first edition, clarifying the role of Israel and emphasizing the inclusive nature of God's redemptive plan.
• Holistic mission reflects the character of God, where our actions demonstrate the truth of the gospel, leading others to inquire about the God we serve.

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Their discussion encourages listeners to embrace a more integrated understanding of theology that is not merely theoretical but is deeply rooted in the realities of human experience. Pastoral leaders are urged to reflect on their own spiritual journeys, recognizing that true ministry flows from a place of authenticity, humility, and a commitment to embodying the Gospel in all facets of life.

Takeaways:

• The conversation emphasizes the necessity of integrating academic rigor with theological practice in the church.
• Travis and Craig explore the implications of a holistic view of Christ that informs every aspect of life, including economics.
• They discuss the importance of patience and slow spiritual formation in a culture that prioritizes immediacy and instant results.
• The speakers highlight the disconnect between academia and the church, advocating for a collaborative approach to theology and ministry.
• Craig stresses the significance of understanding biblical narratives as foundational to shaping a coherent theological expression.
• The episode elucidates the challenges faced by pastors in modern ministry and the need for a reflective and intentional practice of faith.

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Smith traces the historical and theological roots of Mammon, arguing that its influence extends far beyond personal finances and into the very structures of our lives. He warns church leaders of its subtle seduction and calls for communities shaped by loyalty to God rather than the lure of material success. Throughout their dialogue, Travis and Smith emphasize the need for a deeper, more holistic vision of discipleship—one that resists consumerism, challenges cultural assumptions, and re-centers the gospel as the true measure of flourishing. Their exchange urges listeners to engage Scripture and culture with fresh eyes, embracing a countercultural faith that confronts the creeping idolatry of wealth.

Takeaways

• Travis Michael Fleming and David W. Smith explore what it truly means to choose between God and Mammon, revealing how wealth and materialism quietly shape spiritual life and ministry.
• Smith emphasizes that the worship of Mammon is not simply about money—it reflects a wider cultural idolatry that reshapes Christian values, priorities, and commitments.
• Listeners are invited to examine their own financial choices and ask whether their lives reflect service to God or obedience to Mammon’s demands.
• The discussion highlights the need for Christians to recognize the socio-economic systems that subtly mold their worldview and ministry effectiveness—and to critique how those systems influence their faith.
• Smith shows how Mammon’s growing power has seeped into church practices, bending them away from the gospel and resulting in a weakened, compromised discipleship.
• Ultimately, the conversation reminds the Church that resisting materialism opens the door to rediscovering the true demands of the gospel and cultivating a more authentic, faithful community.

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They’re not tucked away on the margins. They’re shaping our culture in boardrooms and in Hollywood, in politics and in tech. From Kash Patel to Vivek Ramaswamy, Mindy Kaling to Kal Penn, Indian Hindus are woven into the fabric of American life. Some practice their faith devoutly; others carry it as part of their cultural story. But their presence—and their influence—is everywhere.

Hinduism isn’t a far-off religion confined to India. It shows up in our neighborhoods, our workplaces, and even our rhythms—through yoga studios, meditation trends, and the growing Indian diaspora that now calls America home.

With grace and clarity, Dr. Tennent helps us rethink how we view and love our Hindu neighbors. He invites us to move past stereotypes and recognize the incredible diversity, beauty, and complexity found within Hindu communities.

Together, we explore Hinduism’s deep history, the range of beliefs held by those who identify as Hindu, and the real challenges Western Christians face when trying to share the hope of the gospel across cultural lines. More importantly, we talk about the kind of relationships that open doors—relationships rooted in humility, hospitality, and genuine friendship.

This conversation isn’t just informative—it’s a call to action for the church. God has brought the nations to our doorsteps. Are we ready to meet them with Christlike love?

Takeaways

• Hinduism has become a significant presence in American life, shaping culture in ways many Christians haven’t yet noticed.
• Travis and Dr. Tennent expose common Western misunderstandings about Hinduism and invite listeners into a fuller, more compassionate perspective.
• Listeners are encouraged to slow down, listen well, and build meaningful relationships with their Hindu neighbors.
• Faithful witness means learning to communicate the gospel in ways that connect with Hindu worldviews and cultural experiences.
• Many Hindus in the U.S. have not been exposed to Christianity’s long, rich history in India—something that can reshape conversations about faith.
• Understanding issues like caste can help Christians love and disciple their Hindu friends with deeper wisdom and sensitivity.

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Joining me are Gerardo Marti and Mark T. Mulder, who unpack Schuller’s philosophy and show how his entrepreneurial approach reshaped American Christianity—and the way ministry was done and measured. As we trace his life and career, we uncover the tension between innovation and the challenges it created for ministry leaders.

At the same time, this episode doesn’t shy away from the hard questions. We examine the idolatries embedded in his approach—the elevation of growth, charisma, and performance—and the unintended consequences that continue to ripple through the church today. It’s an invitation for leaders to celebrate what was done well, but also to wrestle with the ways these patterns have shaped our culture and ministries, asking: How do we lead faithfully in the midst of these legacies?

Key Takeaways:

• Robert Schuller played a formative role in shaping contemporary American congregational life, influencing both growth strategies and worship practices.
• Many pastors today remain unaware of his contributions, highlighting a gap in historical understanding.
• His entrepreneurial approach to church growth left a lasting imprint on modern ministry practices.
• Schuller’s methods illustrate the ongoing tension between innovation and tradition in church leadership.
• His story demonstrates the complexities of ministry, combining charisma, resources, and community in distinctive ways.
• Schuller’s legacy serves as both a cautionary tale and a guide for church leaders navigating cultural change.

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Throughout the conversation, Dr. Goheen critiques traditional approaches to discipleship that focus primarily on personal piety while neglecting the cultural and social dimensions of faith. He challenges the church to reimagine itself as a missional community—actively engaging the world to demonstrate the transformative power of the Gospel. Listeners are invited to reflect on their own faith journeys and consider how they can contribute to a more robust, culturally engaged expression of Christianity. Dr. Goheen’s insights confront the idols of our age and call for a renewed commitment to the Gospel’s expansive vision, which encompasses all of creation.

Travis and Dr. Goheen also explore practical strategies for ministry leaders and believers to deepen their understanding of faith within their cultural context. He emphasizes the importance of cross-cultural dialogue and learning from the global church to uncover blind spots in Western Christianity. This episode is an invitation to rethink discipleship, community engagement, and cultural apologetics—fostering a faith that is not only personally transformative but socially relevant and profoundly impactful-one that is missioholistic in nature.

Takeaways:

• The church has not been adequately discipled, leading to a distorted understanding of the gospel.
• Discipleship should encompass a broader view, engaging with cultural influences and idolatry.
• Understanding the biblical story is essential for reshaping discipleship and church life effectively.
• The core of the Christian faith is found in Jesus Christ, contextualized within the grand narrative of scripture.
• Recovering the gospel's breadth involves recognizing and confronting cultural idolatry in contemporary society.
• The church's mission is to embody the new humanity, reflecting God's kingdom in a fractured world.

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They emphasize the necessity of countering the dominant narratives of contemporary society with the transformative truths of the gospel. Through their discussion, they advocate for a holistic approach to catechism that not only imparts knowledge but also fosters a deeper relationship with God. This conversation is a call to action for church leaders and laypersons alike to embrace catechism as a means of spiritual formation, encouraging a return to the core principles of Christianity that can guide and sustain believers in an increasingly complex world.

Takeaways:

• The Gospel Way Catechism serves as an accessible tool for discipleship, aiming to ground believers in fundamental Christian doctrines amidst contemporary cultural challenges.
• Catechism, often perceived as antiquated, is in fact a vital means of instruction, promoting understanding of the gospel story over prevailing cultural narratives.
• The authors emphasize the importance of counter catechesis, which critically engages and challenges cultural ideologies that conflict with biblical teachings.
• A significant objective of the Gospel Way Catechism is to encourage Christians to live out their faith distinctly, embodying a lifestyle that reflects the transformative power of the gospel.
• The catechism is structured to address contemporary anthropological questions, providing clarity on identity, purpose, and the Christian worldview in a secular age.
• The authors posit that effective catechism develops both knowledge and a culture within the church that resists secular influences and promotes gospel-centered living.

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Their conversation confronts the barriers that individuals face in their prayer lives, such as feelings of inadequacy and the tendency to approach God with a façade of performance rather than authenticity.

Kyle emphasizes that prayer should not be viewed as a chore or a checklist item, but as a vital means of fostering a relationship with God, wherein one can present their true self, including doubts and struggles.

Their conversation emphasizes the significance of honesty in prayer, encouraging ministry leaders to embrace their vulnerabilities and acknowledge their need for divine grace. Through the conversation, Kyle and Travis aim to inspire a reimagining of prayer as a deeply personal and transformative practice, urging ministry leaders to cultivate a prayer life that reflects both sincerity and a genuine desire for connection with God.

Takeaways:

• Prayer is fundamentally about presence rather than performance, allowing us to bring our authentic selves to God.
• The disorientation many experience in prayer often stems from an overemphasis on theological knowledge at the expense of a genuine relationship with God.
• Honesty in prayer can reveal our deepest struggles and desires, ultimately leading us closer to God's transformative love.
• Our spiritual practices should encourage us to draw near to God, acknowledging our need for His mercy rather than relying on our perceived goodness.
• Feeling distant from God can often be a part of the spiritual journey, as He uses these moments to invite us into deeper communion with Him.
• To truly engage in prayer, we must confront our inner conflicts and bring them before God, allowing Him to work through our vulnerabilities.

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They discuss how the decline of American traditional religion (i.e. Christianity) is not attributable to a singular cause but rather a confluence of multifaceted cultural, social, and technological transformations that collectively create a "converging perfect storm."

Throughout their conversation, they explore the historical context of these changes, elucidating how shifts in family dynamics, the rise of neoliberal capitalism, and the impact of digital technology have redefined the religious landscape.

They then discuss how the implications of these transformations affect pastors and ministry leaders today, urging them to do a thorough examination of how some of the more recent ministry methods inherited from Boomer church leaders and approaches may no longer work, but rather how a missioholistic one might.

Their conversation is a call for thoughtful engagement with these pressing issues, inviting listeners to reflect critically on the future of faith in an increasingly complex world.

Takeaways:

• The discussion emphasizes that the decline of traditional religion is not solely due to secularization but is influenced by various cultural shifts and technological changes over time.
• Christianity's adaptation to modernity has led to a narrow understanding of its teachings, reducing religion to moralistic and therapeutic ideals rather than a comprehensive worldview.
• The rise of neoliberal capitalism has fostered an environment that promotes individualism and competitiveness, which contradicts the communal and stable aspects traditionally associated with religious practice.
• Multiculturalism has introduced complexities to religious discourse, leading to a perception that all beliefs are equally valid, which can undermine the conviction necessary for religious adherence.
• The podcast highlights generational shifts, indicating that younger generations are less likely to engage in traditional religious practices due to societal changes in family structures and mobility.
• In light of these cultural changes, it is crucial for pastors and ministry leaders to engage thoughtfully with their communities and adapt their approaches to remain relevant and impactful.

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The discussion frames this obsolescence within the context of significant cultural transformations that have rendered conventional religious practices less relevant to contemporary life. Dr. Smith articulates the difference between mere statistical decline and the broader cultural implications of obsolescence, arguing that the perceptions surrounding traditional religion have shifted dramatically. He outlines the rise of alternative spiritualities and the increasing preference for individualized, non-institutional forms of belief. This episode encourages ministry leaders to engage with these cultural dynamics critically, challenging them to find new pathways for relevance and connection in an ever-evolving spiritual landscape. It serves as a crucial reminder that understanding the cultural zeitgeist is essential for effective ministry in the modern context.

Takeaways:

• Dr. Christian Smith's research reveals that traditional religion in America is not only declining but has become culturally obsolete, reflecting a significant shift in societal values and priorities.
• The discussion highlights that the cultural obsolescence of traditional faith is not merely a decline in attendance, but a broader change in how religion is perceived and practiced in society today.
• Politics has emerged as a response to a perceived loss of cultural influence, indicating that current Christian nationalist movements may reflect desperation rather than strength in religious adherence.
• The podcast emphasizes the necessity for ministry leaders to adapt their approaches to effectively engage with contemporary cultural dynamics and the spiritual needs of younger generations.
• Dr. Smith's findings suggest that the traditional religious narrative struggles to resonate with today's youth, necessitating a reevaluation of ministry methods and outreach strategies.
• The episode underscores the importance of understanding cultural shifts and their implications for the future of ministry, advocating for deeper engagement and transformation within communities.

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The face the difficult question on the necessity for Christians to thoughtfully navigate the political landscape without succumbing to tribalism, particularly in light of the alarming statistic that 80% of pastors feel ill-equipped to address political and civic engagement.

Dr. Miller gives some helpful and crucial distinctions, emphasizing the importance of acknowledging legitimate grievances while maintaining a critical stance against the co-opting of the Gospel for political ends. As we delve into practical strategies for fostering civil dialogue within congregations, we are reminded of our calling to confront the idolatries inherent in both political affiliations and societal narratives. This conversation serves as a clarion call for ministry leaders to cultivate a holistic discipleship that encourages critical engagement with the culture, thereby reinforcing the transformative power of faith in the public sphere.

Takeaways:

• The conversation highlights the complexities surrounding Christian nationalism, emphasizing the need for thoughtful engagement with its underlying grievances.
• Dr. Paul Miller's insights reveal the importance of distinguishing between legitimate concerns and harmful political ideologies within the Christian community.
• Pastors are encouraged to cultivate an environment of open dialogue in their congregations regarding political and social issues, rather than adhering to a singular partisan line.
• The podcast stresses that Christians should not allow their faith to be co-opted by tribalism or political allegiance, as this undermines the core tenets of the Gospel.
• A call to action for church leaders to equip their communities with a robust understanding of civic engagement that honors God without succumbing to idolatries.
• The discussion underscores the necessity of holistic discipleship, urging churches to move beyond superficial engagement and foster deeper moral formation among their members.

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Throughout the conversation, Fleming and Miller confront the ways blending faith with nationalism can distort the gospel. They stress the importance of navigating these issues with wisdom and discernment, advocating for a faith that reflects God’s character rather than a politicized version of Christianity. The dialogue serves as a reminder to uphold the integrity of the gospel while thoughtfully engaging with societal issues, encouraging listeners to consider how their faith can shape their actions in a diverse and dynamic cultural landscape.

Takeaways:

• American Christian nationalism posits that the United States should maintain its identity as a Christian nation, influencing its governance.
• The intersection of faith and patriotism generates complex discussions regarding the boundaries of national identity and religious belief.
• Cultural apologetics plays a crucial role in evaluating how Christian values are communicated within the broader American culture.
• Historical perspectives reveal a longstanding intertwining of Christian identity with American nationalism, necessitating careful theological examination.
• Christian nationalism, at its core, risks distorting the essence of the Gospel, prioritizing political agendas over spiritual authenticity.
• A balanced political theology encourages Christians to engage in social justice without conflating their faith with nationalistic fervor.

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By drawing parallels to Postman’s seminal work, the discussion emphasizes that the medium through which messages are conveyed inexorably alters the messages themselves. This is particularly salient for ministry leaders who navigate the complexities of fostering authentic community amidst the distractions of digital engagement.

The conversation highlights the necessity for churches to reclaim their distinctiveness by prioritizing embodied community practices over digital convenience, thereby fostering deeper connections and substantive spiritual growth. The authors suggest actionable strategies for ministry leaders to cultivate environments that resist the allure of digital consumerism, advocating for a return to foundational ecclesiastical principles that promote holistic spiritual formation in an increasingly fragmented society.

Takeaways:

• The podcast delves into the significant influence of technology on our communication and how it shapes our understanding of the message we convey.
• Brett McCracken and Ivan Mesa's book, 'Scrolling Ourselves to Death,' emphasizes the need for churches to critically evaluate their use of technology in outreach and engagement.
• The discussion explores the notion that no technological medium is neutral and that each form alters the content and delivery of messages.
• Listeners are encouraged to prioritize embodied community and personal relationships over digital distractions to foster deeper connections in ministry.

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Miller highlights that suburbs, often seen as mere backdrops, carry embedded assumptions about race, class, and culture—assumptions that have historically shaped evangelical expressions of faith, sometimes in ways that stray from the gospel’s call to justice and inclusivity.

As these suburban landscapes continue to change, becoming more diverse and pluralistic, the church faces the challenge of adapting its approaches and engaging authentically with its communities. This episode encourages listeners to rethink how place influences faith and underscores the need for a more thoughtful, context-sensitive approach to ministry in suburban settings.

Takeaways:

• Travis Michael Fleming and Brian J. Miller discuss how suburban environments profoundly influence evangelical identities and practices.
• The conversation highlights the necessity for churches to adapt to the changing demographics of suburbia, which is becoming more diverse.
• Miller argues that evangelical faith has historically been shaped by suburban culture, often prioritizing comfort over gospel radicalism.
• The podcast emphasizes the importance of context in shaping belief systems, advocating for churches to engage with their local communities meaningfully.

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Sayers articulates how modern society has shifted from valuing institutional integrity to prioritizing individual platforms, which can lead to rapid rises and falls among leaders. He expresses concern over the performative nature of contemporary leadership, where the cultivation of a public persona can overshadow genuine character and authenticity. The conversation further explores the implications of this shift for ministry leaders, who must navigate a landscape that increasingly values performance metrics over relational depth. Sayers advocates for a return to the notion of 'pillars'—individuals who embody wisdom, stability, and community support.

Throughout the episode, Sayers encourages listeners to reevaluate their roles in fostering authentic connections within their communities. He posits that true leadership requires a commitment to cultivating spiritual authority through personal struggles and faithfulness, rather than succumbing to the pressures of a performance-driven culture. This insightful dialogue not only critiques the current cultural landscape but also provides a transformative vision for leaders seeking to make a meaningful impact in an age characterized by disconnection and superficiality.

Takeaways:

• The UN report indicates a significant global dissatisfaction where 60% of people feel pessimistic about the future despite historical improvements in living standards.
• The concept of platforms in leadership has evolved, where individuals now prioritize building a platform over serving institutions, leading to a crisis in leadership legitimacy.
• Cultural apologetics, as articulated by Travis, plays a crucial role in establishing the Christian voice within contemporary culture amidst rising secularism.
• The phenomenon of platform pain points highlights the paradox of increased connectivity through social media, yet a growing sense of individual disconnection and dissatisfaction.
• The shift from platforms to pillars emphasizes the need for collective wisdom and community support over individualistic pursuits in modern ministry contexts.
• As society trends towards individualism, the church must navigate the challenges of maintaining genuine community and spiritual authority in a performance-driven culture.

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Takeaways:

• Emotional maturity in leadership entails addressing hard issues while maintaining relational connections, fostering a healthy environment.
• The podcast discusses the importance of leading joyfully and relationally, especially in challenging cultural contexts.
• Leaders must prioritize emotional resilience and relational health to create thriving communities and avoid toxic cultures.
• The conversation emphasizes that true leadership involves being present and connected, reflecting the character of Christ in all interactions.
• The importance of community in discipleship is stressed, highlighting that relationships significantly impact personal growth and transformation.
• Listeners are encouraged to cultivate joyful attachments and support systems that help navigate the complexities of leadership.

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Takeaways:

• Effective leadership integrates joy and maturity, which are essential for sustainable influence.
• Mature leaders cultivate relationships rather than relying on fear to motivate their teams.
• Returning to joy serves as a crucial mechanism for enduring hardship within leadership contexts.
• The absence of joy in leadership results in a toxic environment characterized by fear and burnout.
• Understanding the neurological basis of relationships can enhance a leader's effectiveness and overall organizational health.
• Leadership is fundamentally a discipleship issue, emphasizing that personal growth is intertwined with relational dynamics.

Keep up with updates from Apollos Watered: The Center for Discipleship & Cultural Apologetics.

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Takeaways:

• The podcast explores the intersection of neurotheology and spiritual transformation, highlighting the challenges faced in teaching individuals to embody Christ-like behavior.
• Travis and Jim discuss the implications of honor and shame in contemporary culture, emphasizing their biblical roots and relevance.
• They delve into the significance of multigenerational communities in fostering spiritual growth, asserting that diverse age groups enhance relational dynamics.
• The conversation reveals insights into how understanding brain functions can aid in better spiritual formation and facilitate transformative experiences in faith communities.
• Listeners are encouraged to pursue deeper relational connections within their ministries, moving beyond mere performance-driven models to embrace holistic spiritual growth.
• The episode underscores the importance of cultivating joy and healthy communication in ministry, advocating for a return to relational authenticity in faith-based interactions.

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Together, they examine how our understanding of God, ourselves, and our interactions with others shapes our spiritual landscapes. Wilder invites us to reconsider the foundational elements of our faith, arguing that while theological correctness is a necessity, it is our relational dynamics that shape our spiritual identity.

This framework emphasizes the importance of community (i.e. church) and shared life experiences as catalysts for growth, and how our belief is seen in our loves and how we truly love people.

By fostering genuine connections, we can cultivate environments where transformation flourishes, challenging the prevailing tendencies toward individualism in contemporary society. Wilder's insights serve as a call for a renewed focus on relational engagement, echoing the biblical narrative that our identities are forged in the context of community, love, and shared purpose.

Takeaways:

• The brain is inherently relational, seeking connections with others to facilitate shared life experiences.
• Transformation occurs through relational dynamics rather than mere theological understanding or behavioral modification.
• Neurotheology reveals that spiritual formation is fundamentally communal and embedded in our brain's design.
• The early church thrived on relational connections, which are crucial for genuine spiritual growth today.
• When we engage in authentic community, we unlock the potential for personal and collective transformation.
• Understanding our identity is shaped by how others perceive us, necessitating the importance of identity groups over accountability groups.

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Takeaways:

• The historical divide between science and imagination has led to a grim perception of the world, which we must counter with the eye of imagination.
• Imagination is a crucial aspect of our Christian walk, as it enables us to engage with God's story in a profound manner.
• Malcolm Guite emphasizes that imagination is not merely a creative exercise but a vital aspect of our understanding and relationship with God.
• By cultivating our imagination through the arts, we can deepen our comprehension of truth, beauty, and the divine, as expressed in Christian faith.
• Cultural apologetics serves to establish a Christian voice within society, highlighting the significance of imagination in conveying the gospel effectively.
• The act of creation is an eternal process, reflecting God's nature and inviting us to participate in shaping our perception of reality.

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Takeaways:

• The conversation emphasizes the transformative power of the Christian imagination in understanding existence.
• Travis Michael Fleming recounts a profound experience with the Psalms that altered his perception of reality.
• Malcolm Guite discusses the necessity of cultivating a rich Christian imagination in contemporary society.
• The episode explores how literature and poetry can illuminate deeper truths about the human experience.
• Both speakers articulate the significance of vulnerability in relation to faith and divine love.
• The dialogue highlights the importance of community and shared experiences in fostering spiritual growth.

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Root emphasizes that each believer is called to be an ambassador for Christ, underlining the imperative nature of evangelism in the life of every Christian, regardless of their specific gifts or vocations. T

hrough their discussion, they share poignant anecdotes from Lewis’s life, illustrating how he actively sought to share the gospel, often in unconventional settings, such as the Socratic Club at Oxford or through his extensive correspondence.

This episode is enlightening and encouraging, and serves as a compelling reminder of the importance of personal testimony and relational evangelism, encouraging you to embrace opportunities to convey the message of Christ to those around you.

Takeaways:

• Travis Michael Fleming and Jerry Root emphasize that we are mere ambassadors of God, tasked with sharing His message of love and grace.
• The discussion highlights that the act of evangelism transcends one’s personal gifting, as every believer is called to share the Gospel.
• C.S. Lewis's unique ability to communicate profound truths in accessible language serves as an inspiration for effective evangelism.
• Listeners are encouraged to engage with individuals where they are, using personal relationships to facilitate meaningful conversations about faith.
• The podcast underscores the importance of viewing all people as created in the image of God, which necessitates sharing the Gospel with everyone we encounter.
• Jerry Root illustrates the necessity for ongoing relationships in evangelism, suggesting that spiritual growth often requires time and patience.

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Takeaways:

• Travis Michael Fleming and Jerry Root explore the transformative power of C.S. Lewis' imagination in evangelism during their insightful discussion.
• Root emphasizes the importance of engaging the imagination to effectively communicate the gospel message in contemporary culture.
• The conversation highlights how Lewis' works evoke deep longings within individuals, prompting them to seek spiritual fulfillment and truth.
• Lewis' ability to transcend denominational boundaries allows him to resonate with a diverse audience across various Christian traditions.
• Travis shares personal anecdotes about evangelism, illustrating how relational connections can facilitate meaningful conversations about faith.
• Root discusses the necessity of community in theological exploration, asserting that individual understanding flourishes within a collective context.

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Thank you for making a difference!

Are you ready to go deeper in your faith and discover how to live out God's Kingdom in today's world?

Sign up for the Blueprint Cohort, a 5-week guided journey through Blueprint: Kingdom Living in the Modern World. We’ll meet Wednesdays from 12–1 PM ET, starting May 28 via Zoom.

🗓 Meeting Dates:

• May 28
• June 4
• June 11
• June 18
• June 25

Whether you're a pastor, leader, or simply hungry to grow, this cohort is designed to refresh, equip, and encourage you.

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The dialogue unfolds with a profound exploration of the contemporary ecclesiastical landscape, particularly through the lens of Apollos Watered and Travis Michael Fleming's literary contribution, Blueprint. The discussion is enriched by Dr. Scott Duncan, a senior pastor who has navigated the complexities of ministry in the culturally rich yet challenging environment of Huntington, West Virginia. Through this engaging conversation, we delve into pressing issues facing church leaders today, such as biblical illiteracy, the necessity for apologetics, and the urgent need for culturally responsive discipleship. Dr. Duncan shares his pastoral experiences, highlighting the disconnect between the church and the surrounding community, where a staggering 70% of individuals do not identify with any Christian faith. This reality serves as a backdrop against which the insights from Blueprint become a critical resource for revitalizing church engagement and fostering spiritual growth. The episode emphasizes the importance of equipping leaders to confront these challenges with clarity and conviction, ultimately fostering a church that is both rooted in the Gospel and responsive to the cultural shifts of our time.

Takeaways:

• Travis Michael Fleming and Scott Duncan underscore the significance of engaging with diverse theological perspectives for the enrichment of understanding in ministry.
• The podcast highlights the pervasive issue of biblical illiteracy within congregations, necessitating a robust approach to teaching the overarching narrative of Scripture.
• Scott Duncan emphasizes the importance of fostering community and connection among church members to combat spiritual apathy and enhance collective witness.
• The discussion reveals the challenges faced by church leaders in modern culture, where traditional values often clash with contemporary secular beliefs.
• Both speakers advocate for the necessity of equipping church leaders through resources such as Travis's book, Blueprint, to navigate the complexities of faith in today's world.
• Apollos Watered seeks to empower leaders by refreshing their commitment to the gospel as they engage their communities with clarity and conviction.

Keep up with updates from Apollos Watered: The Center for Discipleship & Cultural Apologetics.

Get Travis's book Blueprint: Kingdom Living in the Modern World.

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Thank you for making a difference!

Are you ready to go deeper in your faith and discover how to live out God's Kingdom in today's world?

Sign up for the Blueprint Cohort, a 5-week guided journey through Blueprint: Kingdom Living in the Modern World. We’ll meet Wednesdays from 12–1 PM ET, starting May 28 via Zoom.

🗓 Meeting Dates:

• May 28
• June 4
• June 11
• June 18
• June 25

Whether you're a pastor, leader, or simply hungry to grow, this cohort is designed to refresh, equip, and encourage you.

👉 Sign-Up Link Here!

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The podcast episode delves into the intricate dynamics of community within a post-Christian context, highlighting the necessity of belonging and the transformative power of genuine fellowship.

Irwyn Ince Jr. articulates a profound understanding of community as a divine reality, drawing upon the concept of perichoresis to illustrate the interplay of unity and diversity within the Trinity. This theological foundation suggests that true community is not merely a human construct but a reflection of God's nature.

As the discussion unfolds, it becomes evident that the journey towards authentic community demands vulnerability and a willingness to extend oneself beyond familiar boundaries, particularly for those from minority backgrounds.

Along with Ince, Jr., the episode features insights from such leaders as Bishop Claude Alexander, Allen Yeh, Stephen O. Presley, O. Alan Noble, N.T. Wright and Michael Goheen emphasize that the church, as a microcosm of the Kingdom of God, must embody diversity and reconciliation. Ince Jr. poignantly raises critical questions regarding the cost of belonging, urging listeners to consider the sacrifices individuals make in pursuit of genuine community and the importance of creating spaces where all voices are heard and valued. The overarching message underscores the call for maturity within the church, advocating for a collective journey that embraces discomfort as a catalyst for growth and unity, ultimately reflecting the beauty of the Gospel in a fractured world.

Takeaways:

• The need for community and belonging is essential for every individual, transcending mere desire to become a fundamental requirement.
• The concept of perichoresis, representing the divine dance within the Trinity, serves as a foundational principle for understanding authentic community.
• True community is not merely a human construct but rather a reflection of God's divine nature, emphasizing unity amidst diversity.
• Engaging with diverse perspectives within the church enriches our understanding of God and enhances our communal worship experience.
• The journey towards authentic community necessitates maturity, which often entails discomfort and personal growth in faith.
• To fully embody the Gospel, the church must embrace its missional identity, engaging with the world in love, justice, and faithfulness.

Keep up with updates from Apollos Watered: The Center for Discipleship & Cultural Apologetics.

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Love people.

Sounds simple, but in many churches today, the Great Commandment has largely been unintentionally overlooked.

Today's conversation is about rediscovering the Great Commandment, which calls us to love God with the entirety of our being and to extend that love to our neighbors. But it's not about love in abstract theory, but everyday practice. It's a call to learn the skills of how we love our neighbors (and our enemies).

We delve into the profound implications of this commandment and how love must permeate our existence and interactions, shaping our identity as a community of faith.

As we navigate the complexities of modern life, it becomes evident that the act of loving others necessitates recognizing their intrinsic value as creations of God, a foundational truth that undergirds our relationships. Throughout our conversation, we grapple with the challenges of maintaining this love amidst distractions and cultural divisions, and we explore the necessity of fostering a communal identity that embodies these principles. By emphasizing love as a transformative force, we aspire to cultivate a community that not only professes but actively practices the essence of the Great Commandment in every facet of life.

Takeaways:

• The Great Commandment emphasizes the necessity of loving God and loving others, which serves as the foundation for all Christian living.
• True transformation in the church occurs not merely through information but through love that is relational and communal in nature.
• When we lose our first love, we risk losing our identity as a church, which must be rooted in love and humility.
• The church should foster a community where joy and love are central, shaping the character of its members and their interactions with the world.

Keep up with updates from Apollos Watered: The Center for Discipleship & Cultural Apologetics.

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The episode serves as a profound exploration of the changing landscape of evangelism, spearheaded by Travis Michael Fleming and a cohort of insightful guests. The discourse begins with an acknowledgment of the historical context of evangelism, particularly the reliance on a shared cultural framework that has now eroded due to the effects of globalization and pluralism. Fleming articulately argues that the previous methods of evangelism, which often assumed a common Christian heritage, are increasingly ineffective in a society where individuals may possess little to no familiarity with the Christian faith.

As the conversation progresses, the speakers delve into the implications of this cultural shift on the Great Commission, emphasizing that it must be understood not just as a call to make converts but as an imperative to cultivate discipleship. This reflects a broader understanding of the Christian mission—one that prioritizes long-term relational engagement over transient decisions. The speakers highlight that contemporary evangelism must navigate a landscape marked by skepticism and diverse worldviews, necessitating a deeper investment in the lives of individuals and a willingness to engage in meaningful dialogue.

Furthermore, the episode underscores the urgency of this conversation against the backdrop of alarming statistics regarding church attendance and spiritual disaffiliation. With millions of individuals distancing themselves from organized religion, Fleming and his guests contend that the church must adapt its approach to evangelism. The discussion culminates in a call to action, urging listeners to embrace a holistic understanding of discipleship that reflects the relational heart of the gospel, thereby transforming the way the church engages with a world in need of hope and connection.

Takeaways:

• The Great Commission encompasses more than mere evangelism; it entails a lifelong journey of discipleship.
• Cultural shifts necessitate a reevaluation of evangelistic methods to engage diverse worldviews effectively.
• A relational approach to evangelism fosters deeper connections and understanding of the gospel's implications.
• The church must prioritize both justification and sanctification in its mission to make true disciples.

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Throughout the discussion, Fleming examines the duality of the church's challenges, where leaders grapple with the pressures of maintaining relevance while adhering to scriptural truths. He highlights the urgent need for a reformative approach that acknowledges both the rot within the church and the vibrant expressions of faith emerging from immigrant communities and new congregational forms. The podcast serves not only as an indictment of the current trajectory of evangelicalism but also as a clarion call for a return to spiritual robustness and discipleship, emphasizing that the future of the church hinges upon its ability to engage deeply with Scripture and foster authentic community.

As the episode unfolds, Fleming articulates three critical pillars of Kingdom living that will form the basis of the upcoming series: the Great Commandment, the Great Community, and the Great Commission. Each of these components is presented as essential for navigating the complexities of modern faith. He implores listeners to reconsider how these tenets can reshape their lives and churches, ultimately guiding them toward a thriving expression of faith amidst societal turbulence.

Takeaways:

• The podcast addresses the profound crisis currently faced by the church, highlighting that it necessitates not only awareness but a courageous call for reformation and renewal.
• It is imperative to recognize that many churches are experiencing significant decline, as evidenced by the staggering number of individuals who have distanced themselves from church attendance.
• The conversation underscores the alarming trend of reduced engagement with Scripture among congregants, indicating a deeper spiritual malnutrition within the church community.
• The current cultural climate reveals a tug-of-war between institutional preservation and the pursuit of authenticity, with individuals feeling compelled to choose sides.
• The need for a transformative approach to discipleship and family formation is emphasized, as the future of the church hinges on effectively passing down faith to the next generation.
• The series aims to explore the foundational pillars of Kingdom Living, encouraging a return to the essence of loving God and one another as a means to rejuvenate the church.

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Takeaways:

• The Great Commission is not merely a task to be accomplished, but rather an ongoing invitation to participate in God's unfolding story of redemption, emphasizing the importance of viewing ourselves within this grand narrative.
• In contemplating the Great Commission, it is crucial to recognize that approximately 87% of individuals from major world religions have no personal connection with a Christian, highlighting the vastness of the mission field ahead of us.
• The dialogue suggests a re-evaluation of our approach to the Great Commission, advocating for a long-term commitment to evangelism and discipleship rather than viewing it as a finite goal to achieve swiftly.
• Understanding our place within the biblical story helps to ground our identity as Christians, reminding us that we are active participants in God's plan rather than passive observers of the faith.
• It is essential to integrate the Great Commission with the Great Commandment and the Great Community, creating a holistic understanding of faith that informs how we live, love, and lead in the world today.
• The conversation stresses the necessity of practical obedience to Christ's teachings, indicating that the Great Commission involves not just evangelism, but also embodying the gospel through our actions and relationships.

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The conversation navigates through the complexities of modern ministry, addressing the inherent tensions that arise when engaging with contemporary culture while remaining anchored in biblical truths. Fleming and Wright delve into the detrimental consequences of a fragmented view of Scripture, which often leads to an impoverished understanding of the gospel. They advocate for a return to the biblical story, which is characterized by themes of creation, fall, redemption, and restoration. This dialogue serves as a vital reminder that understanding our role within God's mission is intrinsically linked to our comprehension of the biblical narrative, urging listeners to immerse themselves in the scriptures to enrich their faith and enhance their capacity to serve effectively.

Takeaways:

• The podcast emphasizes the significance of understanding the biblical narrative for effective ministry.
• Travis Michael Fleming and Christopher J.H. Wright stress that the Great Commission encompasses more than mere conversions; it involves disciple-making.
• The conversation highlights the dangers of reducing the Bible to isolated moral lessons, which can obscure God's overarching story of redemption.
• A thorough comprehension of the biblical story shapes our beliefs and influences our actions in leadership and ministry contexts.

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The dialogue between Travis Michael Fleming and Dr. James Davison Hunter serves as a critical reflection on the state of American society and the role of Christianity within it. As Hunter articulates in *Democracy & Solidarity*, the current political crisis is deeply rooted in cultural dynamics that extend far beyond the superficialities of electoral politics. Through their conversation, they dissect the implications of a culture marked by a reluctance to engage in meaningful dialogue and an increasing reliance on coercive power to effect change. Hunter posits that a true understanding of love—one that encompasses care and compassion—must inform the Christian response to societal challenges. This intimate and thought-provoking episode invites listeners to reconsider their approach to cultural engagement, emphasizing the importance of building relationships and fostering understanding at a time when polarization seems to dominate. As they conclude, both Fleming and Hunter highlight the potential for renewal through a recommitment to the foundational principles of the Christian faith, urging believers to navigate the complexities of modern life with grace and integrity.

Takeaways:

• The conversation emphasizes that political solutions often fail to effectuate lasting cultural change, highlighting the need for deeper cultural engagement.
• Travis and James argue that Christian activism's reliance on political power obscures the importance of love and compassion in societal transformation.
• The discussion reveals that the current political climate is marked by active nihilism, which hinders a united vision of America that includes diverse voices.
• An essential point made is that true cultural renewal requires a comprehensive strategy that transcends mere political maneuvering and addresses foundational societal values.
• Hunter articulates that the church's identity should not be conflated with political power, as this diminishes its theological essence and role in society.
• The podcast underscores the necessity for Christians to engage in the deep work of culture, which involves listening, dialoguing, and lovingly serving their communities.

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Dr. Hunter, the author of Democracy and Solidarity, brings profound insight into how culture is formed, how power is wielded, and why our current moment feels so divisive. We’ll discuss the cultural forces shaping our worldview, the tension between democracy and solidarity, and how Christians can engage these challenges with wisdom, conviction, and grace.

This conversation goes beyond political allegiances to the deeper question: How do we remain faithful to the gospel in an age of polarization? If you’re a pastor, ministry leader, or believer wrestling with these issues, this episode is a must-listen. Join us as we explore a way forward—one that doesn’t compromise truth but seeks to embody the kingdom of God in a fractured world.

Takeaways:

• Dr. Hunter articulates the notion that America's political crisis is rooted in a deep cultural fragmentation that undermines democratic cohesion.
• The concept of 'deep structures of culture' highlights the invisible, foundational beliefs that shape societal behavior and interactions.
• In discussing democracy, Dr. Hunter emphasizes the need for solidarity and shared moral frameworks to counteract divisive polarization in society.
• The historical context of America's founding illustrates a hybrid Enlightenment that integrates various cultural and religious influences into a unique democratic identity.
• Dr. Hunter argues that understanding the contradictions within the ideals of freedom and equality is essential for navigating contemporary political discourse.
• The podcast underscores the imperative for Christian leaders to foster unity and solidarity, reflecting Christ's teachings, amidst cultural and political disagreements.

Keep up with updates from Apollos Watered: The Center for Discipleship & Cultural Apologetics.

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The Art of Living in Season is a companion for everyday saints who wonder how they can follow Jesus-what they can give him-wherever, whenever, and whoever they are.

Check out Sylvie's website and get the book.

If you want to purchase a santon from France or another here. There is also an American website that sells these particular santons.

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In a thoughtful dialogue on Apollos Watered, Travis Michael Fleming and Sylvie Van Hooser explore the transformative themes found in her book, "The Art of Living in Season." Sylvie, a botanical artist, draws from her rich experiences across different cultures to advocate for a lifestyle that honors the natural rhythms of life, particularly as we transition into the Advent season. Their conversation emphasizes the significance of slowing down, reconnecting with nature, and embracing communal traditions that foster a deeper relationship with God and each other. Sylvie introduces listeners to the French tradition of the "creche," a nativity scene that incorporates little figurines representing local community members, embodying the essence of shared stories and collective faith during the holiday season.

Throughout their discussion, Sylvie reflects on the disorienting pace of modern life, where technology often leads to isolation and a disconnect from the physical world. She shares her personal journey of navigating these challenges and highlights how intentionally incorporating seasonal practices can help individuals find stability and meaning amidst life's transitions. By rooting oneself in local customs and the church calendar, she suggests that individuals can cultivate a sense of belonging and purpose, inviting God into their everyday lives.

The episode serves as a powerful reminder of the beauty of community, the importance of hospitality, and the need for a more profound engagement with the world around us. Sylvie’s message encourages listeners to reflect on their own practices and consider how they can reintroduce intentionality into their routines, fostering relationships that honor both the sacred and the ordinary. Ultimately, this conversation inspires a renewed commitment to embracing the seasons of life, allowing God's presence to permeate every moment and enriching our connections with one another.

Takeaways:

• Incorporating seasonal practices can deepen our connection to faith and community.
• The creche tradition invites us to celebrate Advent with intentionality and connection.
• Slowing down during the holidays allows us to truly appreciate God's gifts around us.
• Engaging with the church calendar helps ground our spiritual lives in meaningful rhythms.
• Food and shared meals are vital to fostering relationships and expressing gratitude.
• Embracing the art of living in season can transform our everyday experiences into a joyful pilgrimage.

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Today's guest is Dr. Brian Fikkert. Dr. Fikkert is Professor of Economics and Community Development and the Founder of the Chalmers Center for Economic Development at Covenant College. He is coauthor of the best-selling book When Helping Hurts: How to Alleviate Poverty Without Hurting the Poor…and Yourself as well as Helping Without Hurting in Short-Term Missions, Helping Without Hurting in Church Benevolence, and From Dependence to Dignity: How to Alleviate Poverty Through Church-Centered Microfinance. Dr. Fikkert earned a Ph.D. in economics from Yale University, specializing in international economics and economic development. He is the author of numerous articles in both academic and popular journals. Prior to coming to Covenant College, he was a professor at the University of Maryland—College Park and a research fellow at the Center for Institutional Reform and the Informal Sector.

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Michael Wear is the Founder, President, and CEO of the Center for Christianity and Public Life, a nonpartisan, nonprofit institution based in the nation's capital with the mission to contend for the credibility of Christian resources in public life, for the public good. For well over a decade, he has served as a trusted resource and advisor for a range of civic leaders on matters of faith and public life, including as a White House and presidential campaign staffer. Michael is a leading voice on building healthy civic pluralism in twenty-first-century America. He has argued that the spiritual health and civic character of individuals is deeply tied to the state of our politics and public affairs. 

Michael previously led Public Square Strategies, a consulting firm he founded that helps religious organizations, political organizations, businesses, and others effectively navigate the rapidly changing American religious and political landscape.

Michael is the author of The Spirit of Our Politics: Spiritual Formation and the Renovation of Public Life, a paradigm-shifting book that advances a vision for spiritual formation in the context of political life. Michael’s first book, Reclaiming Hope: Lessons Learned in the Obama White House About the Future of Faith in America, offers reflections, analysis, and ideas about the role of faith in the Obama years and what it means for today. He has co-authored or contributed to, several other books, including Compassion and Conviction: The AND Campaign's Guide to Faithful Civic Engagement, with Justin Giboney and Chris Butler. He also writes for The Atlantic, The New York Times, The Washington Post, Catapult Magazine, Christianity Today, and other publications on faith, politics, and culture.

Learn more about Michael.

Learn more about The Center for Christianity and Public Life.

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Michael Wear is the Founder, President, and CEO of the Center for Christianity and Public Life, a nonpartisan, nonprofit institution based in the nation's capital with the mission to contend for the credibility of Christian resources in public life, for the public good. For well over a decade, he has served as a trusted resource and advisor for a range of civic leaders on matters of faith and public life, including as a White House and presidential campaign staffer. Michael is a leading voice on building healthy civic pluralism in twenty-first-century America. He has argued that the spiritual health and civic character of individuals is deeply tied to the state of our politics and public affairs. 

Michael previously led Public Square Strategies, a consulting firm he founded that helps religious organizations, political organizations, businesses and others effectively navigate the rapidly changing American religious and political landscape.

Michael is the author of The Spirit of Our Politics: Spiritual Formation and the Renovation of Public Life, a paradigm-shifting book that advances a vision for spiritual formation in the context of political life. Michael’s first book, Reclaiming Hope: Lessons Learned in the Obama White House About the Future of Faith in America, offers reflections, analysis, and ideas about the role of faith in the Obama years and what it means for today. He has co-authored or contributed to, several other books, including Compassion and Conviction: The AND Campaign's Guide to Faithful Civic Engagement, with Justin Giboney and Chris Butler. He also writes for The Atlantic, The New York Times, The Washington Post, Catapult Magazine, Christianity Today, and other publications on faith, politics, and culture.

Learn more about Michael.

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He serves as the Senior Fellow for Religion and Public Life at the Center for Religion Culture and Democracy (an initiative of First Liberty Institute) and Associate Professor of Church History at Southern Seminary. 

Stephen O. Presley earned his undergraduate degree at Baylor University, a Th.M. from Dallas Theological Seminary, and a Ph.D. from the University of St. Andrews in Scotland. He is married to Haley and they have four children and reside in McKinney, TX.

Learn more about Stephen and get the book.

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Takeaways:

• The Christian life has often been perceived as fragmented, lacking integration among its various aspects.
• A vital component of engaging with contemporary culture involves fostering a local Christian community rooted in trust and love.
• Addressing the challenges faced in a postmodern world necessitates a holistic approach to Christian living, not solely reliant on political or charity actions.
• The early church serves as a model for living integrated lives, emphasizing the importance of a shared narrative in the face of cultural opposition.
• Hope is an essential theological virtue that must permeate our lives, guiding us through challenges and affirming Christ's reign.
• Cultural sanctification entails a dynamic interplay between indigenizing faith within cultures while maintaining its distinctiveness and relevance.

He serves as the Senior Fellow for Religion and Public Life at the Center for Religion Culture and Democracy (an initiative of First Liberty Institute) and Associate Professor of Church History at Southern Seminary. 

Stephen O. Presley earned his undergraduate degree at Baylor University, Th.M. from Dallas Theological Seminary, and Ph.D. from the University of St. Andrews in Scotland. He is married to Haley and they have four children and reside in McKinney, TX.

Travis and Stephen talk about his new book, Cultural Sanctification, and how there is really nothing new under the sun. This was one of the best and most invigorating conversations ever had on Apollos Watered and it will help you in your calling to engage the world for Jesus.

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Informative, challenging, and enriching, this is a conversation that will help you think through what God is doing, what He is calling us to do, and how we can join the opportunities He has created for us.

Check out the American Bible Society.

Download the State of the Bible Report.

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Join Travis as he continues his discussion with Dean Flemming, as they discuss the need to contextualize the gospel so that our audience understands it, and is challenged by it.

Today's guest is Dr. Dean Flemming. Dean Flemming (Ph.D., University of Aberdeen) is an award-winning author, Bible teacher, and seminar speaker. He is Professor Emeritus of New Testament and Mission at MidAmerica Nazarene University and teaches New Testament at the Missional Training Center in Phoenix, AZ. He served for 24 years as a theological educator in the Philippines and Germany and has taught in many global settings.

Dean is the author of six books, including Contextualization in the New Testament, which won a Christianity Today book award, and a commentary on Philippians that received the Smith-Wynkoop book award. He writes especially on the connection between the New Testament and mission.

An ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene, Dean has pastored churches in Ohio and Japan. He is active in his local church, which includes teaching an adult Bible class.

Today, he joins Apollos Watered to discuss his book, Contextualization in the New Testament, and how the early church contextualized the message of Jesus to its audience and we must do the same thing as well.

This conversation will help you to identify what contextualization is, why and how it was done in the early church, and how it might help you communicate the Gospel effectively today to those in your world.

Learn more about Dean Flemming.

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It sounds complicated, but it's actually not as hard as we think. You have probably heard the phrase, "Know your audience!" That's what we are talking about. Communicating to your audience in a way that they understand. As Christians, we call this process, "contextualization." How do we go about communicating the gospel to those from different backgrounds than us that enables us to communicate in a way that they understand without compromising what the Gospel calls for.

Today's guest is Dr. Dean Flemming. Dean Flemming (Ph.D., University of Aberdeen) is an award-winning author, Bible teacher, and seminar speaker. He is Professor Emeritus of New Testament and Mission at MidAmerica Nazarene University and teaches New Testament at the Missional Training Center in Phoenix, AZ. He served for 24 years as a theological educator in the Philippines and Germany and has taught in many global settings.

Dean is the author of six books, including Contextualization in the New Testament, which won a Christianity Today book award, and a commentary on Philippians that received the Smith-Wynkoop book award. He writes especially on the connection between the New Testament and mission.

An ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene, Dean has pastored churches in Ohio and Japan. He is active in his local church, which includes teaching an adult Bible class.

Today, he joins Apollos Watered to discuss his book, Contextualization in the New Testament, and how the early church contextualized the message of Jesus to its audience and we must do the same thing as well.

This conversation will help you to identify what contextualization is, why and how it was done in the early church, and how it might help you communicate the Gospel effectively today to those in your world.

Learn more about Dean Flemming.

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Join Travis and Dr. Vincent Bacote as they discuss what it means to be a political disciple in a polarized world.

Dr. Vincent Bacote is a Professor of Theology and the Director of the Center for Applied Christian Ethics at Wheaton College in Wheaton, IL.

He is the author of Reckoning with Race and Performing the Good News: In Search of a Better Evangelical Theology (2020), The Political Disciple: A Theology of Public Life (2015), The Spirit in Public Theology: Appropriating the Legacy of Abraham Kuyper (2005), and has contributed to books including On Kuyper (2013), Aliens in the Promised Land (2013), Keep Your Head Up (2012) and Prophetic Evangelicals (2012).

He is a regular columnist for Comment Magazine and contributes to other magazines, including Books and Culture, Christianity Today, Think Christian and re:generation quarterly, and journals such as Christian Scholars Review, Urban Mission and the Journal for Christian Theological Research.

He is a member of the Evangelical Theological Society and the Society of Christian Ethics.

He resides in the Chicago area with his family.

Travis and Vincent discuss what it means to be political, why the church needs to have a robust political theology (how God wants us to go about politics that is biblically faithful), common grace, and how our political theology has changed over time, as well as the very purpose of government.

Vincent also discusses some other theologians and how they have shaped how we see politics today, names like Abraham Kuyper, John Howard Yoder, and Stanley Hauerwas. While they may be unfamiliar, they have affected how we view and even engage the political process today. Vincent also gives Travis some lessons on Jazz.

Learn more about Vincent.

Get Vincent's book The Political Disciple. One of the books referred to is Contours of the Kuyperian Tradition by Craig Bartholomew and Bruce Riley Ashford.

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Jake is the editor-in-chief of Mere Orthodoxy, an online periodical seeking to be a voice of sanity in the midst of craziness. His writing has appeared in First Things, Books & Culture, Christianity Today, Commonweal, Front Porch Republic, National Review and Fare Forward. He is the author of two books, In Search of the Common Good: Christian Fidelity in a Fractured World and What are Christians for?: Life Together at the End of the World.

Travis and Jake discuss Lincoln, Nebraska, Tanzania, Wendell Berry, N.T. Wright, Herman Bavinck, Francis Schaeffer, Elisabeth Elliot, and what our role as Christians is to be in the world.

Episodes referred to in this episode:

Listen to #234 | What Are Christians For? with Jake Meador, Pt. 1

Learn more about Jake.

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Jake Meador is today's guest on Apollos Watered, discussing his book, What Are Christians For?

Jake is the editor-in-chief of Mere Orthodoxy, an online periodical seeking to be a voice of sanity in the midst of craziness. His writing has appeared in First Things, Books & Culture, Christianity Today, Commonweal, Front Porch Republic, National Review and Fare Forward. He is the author of two books, In Search of the Common Good: Christian Fidelity in a Fractured World and What are Christians for?: Life Together at the End of the World.

Travis and Jake discuss Lincoln, Nebraska, Tanzania, Wendell Berry, N.T. Wright, Herman Bavinck, Francis Schaeffer, Elisabeth Elliot, and what our role as Christians is to be in the world.

Learn more about Jake.

Check out Mere Orthodoxy.

Sign up for the class, "God's Greatness | Your Mission" here!

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Takeaways:

• The complexity of modern life necessitates a robust Christian faith capable of addressing myriad challenges.
• Many individuals are deconstructing their faith due to a lack of comprehensive teaching on Christian life and purpose.
• Christians are called not only to make disciples but also to engage meaningfully with cultural and societal issues.
• The conversation explores the broader implications of what it means to be a Christian in a fragmented world.
• The book 'What are Christians for?' challenges readers to reevaluate their understanding of Christian identity and mission.
• Understanding the historical context of Christianity can illuminate contemporary issues and inform a holistic approach to faith.

Stephen T. Pardue (PhD, Wheaton College) directs the ThM/PhD in theological studies and church history at the Asia Graduate School of Theology and teaches theology at the International Graduate School of Leadership in Manila, Philippines. He is the author of Why Evangelical Theology Needs the Global Church and the coeditor of 10 books, including Majority World Theology and Asian Christian Theology. He and his wife, Teri, have four children and belong to Union Church of Manila.

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A couple of the episodes referenced in today's episode:

#150 | Scriptural Illiteracy & Secular Imagination, Pt. 1 | Kevin Vanhoozer

#151 | Scriptural Illiteracy & Secular Imagination, Pt. 2 | Kevin Vanhoozer

Understanding Tom means understanding not only what he is saying, but what he is responding to. Without that as a backdrop, you miss his point. Listen in and hear not only what he says, but what he is responding to, and as if often the case, it's the abuses in mind.

N.T. Wright (Tom) is currently Research Professor Emeritus of New Testament and Early Christianity at St Mary’s College in the University of St Andrews and Senior Research Fellow at Wycliffe Hall, Oxford. He has authored or co-authored over 90 books, and today he joins Apollos Watered to discuss his newest book, "Jesus and the Powers: Christian Political Witness in an Age of Totalitarian Terror and Dysfunctional Democracies."

Other episodes referred to in this episode:

#150 | Scriptural Illiteracy & Secular Imagination, Pt. 1 | Kevin Vanhoozer

#151 | Scriptural Illiteracy & Secular Imagination, Pt. 2 | Kevin Vanhoozer

#226 | The Church Between Temple & Mosque | Dan Strange

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Takeaways:

• N.T. Wright emphasizes that the problem with sin is not merely personal failure, but failing to fulfill God's creational purposes in the world.
• The concept of being human in a biblical sense includes being agents of God's restorative work in creation, not just focusing on individual salvation.
• Politics from a theological perspective requires Christians to view political engagement as part of their mission to embody God's kingdom on earth.
• Wright critiques Western individualism in Christianity, advocating for a corporate understanding of faith and community that reflects our shared identity in Christ.
• The church's political witness must challenge both external powers and internal inconsistencies, holding leaders accountable to God's standards.
• Wright argues that genuine political engagement should reflect the values of the kingdom of God, prioritizing love and justice for all people.

Today we welcome N.T. Wright to the show. Prof. Wright is currently a Research Professor Emeritus of New Testament and Early Christianity at St Mary’s College in the University of St Andrews and a Senior Research Fellow at Wycliffe Hall, Oxford. He has authored or co-authored over 90 books, and today he joins Apollos Watered to discuss his newest book, "Jesus and the Powers: Christian Political Witness in an Age of Totalitarian Terror and Dysfunctional Democracies."

Takeaways:

• Tom Wright emphasizes the importance of understanding the political implications of the Gospel.
• The kingdom of God is not just a spiritual concept but has earthly significance.
• Christians are called to engage in politics wisely and biblically, not reactively.
• The church should reflect a diverse community that challenges societal norms of division.
• Dark powers influence human authority, and Christians must discern these influences in society.
• The church's witness is to embody love and unity, showcasing God's kingdom in action.

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Today's guest is Cherie Harder, President of the Trinity Forum. Cherie Harder serves as President of the Trinity Forum. Before joining the Trinity Forum in 2008, Ms. Harder served in the White House as Special Assistant to the President and Director of Policy and Projects for First Lady Laura Bush.

Earlier in her career she served as Policy Advisor to Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, advising the Leader on domestic social issues and serving as liaison and outreach director to outside groups. From 2001 to 2005, she was Senior Counselor to the Chairman of the National Endowment for the Humanities (NEH), where she helped the Chairman design and launch the We the People initiative to enhance the teaching, study, and understanding of American history. Before that, Ms. Harder was the Policy Director for Senator Sam Brownback and also served as Deputy Policy Director at Empower America.

She holds an Honors B.A. (magna cum laude) in government from Harvard University and a post-graduate diploma in literature from the University of Queensland in Brisbane, Australia, where she was a Rotary Scholar. She is also a Senior Fellow at Cardus, an Editorial Board member of Comment magazine, a past board member of Gordon College and the C.S. Lewis Institute, a current board member of the Convergence Center for Policy Resolution and Faith and Law, and an advisory board member of the National Museum of American Religion.

Check out The Trinity Forum

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Pastor and author Stephen McAlpine shows us that the answers aren't that complex. We can future-proof our churches. Listen in as Travis and Stephen discuss Stephen's new book, Futureproof: How to Live for Jesus in a Culture That Keeps on Changing (Discipleship resource: a Christian response to cultural change and the future of the church)

Check out Stephen's website.

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#futureproof #stephenmcalpine #Christianity #church #churchinnorthamerica #reformation #rechurching #Jesus #Christ #brideofchrist #hope #christisking #apolloswatered #wateringfaith #travismichaelfleming #evangelicalism #Christian #goodnews #churchattendance #americanevangelicalism #committed

Takeaways:

• The contemporary church must refocus its hope on the age to come, as emphasized in the Bible, to navigate the present cultural challenges.
• It is imperative for church leaders to articulate the return of Jesus as the cataclysmic event that will usher in our ultimate hope.
• To effectively future-proof the church, individuals must resist the temptation to seek fulfillment solely in present circumstances and instead look towards God's eternal promises.
• The cultural discombobulation experienced today requires church leaders to provide a clear and compelling vision that transcends mere moral guidance or therapeutic messages.
• As society becomes increasingly secular, churches must foster deeper communal connections among believers to counter the isolating effects of modern life.
• The church's mission in a hostile culture is to showcase beauty, justice, and mercy, reflecting God's character in a world that often overlooks these values.

In The Great Dechurching, authors Michael Graham, Jim Davis, and Ryan P. Burge have done the work and come back with the stats. It's both better and worse than we could imagine. 40 million people have stopped going to church in the last 25 years and that's just the tip of the iceberg. However, amid such depressing news, there is hope. Because many of them are willing and ready to come back!

Listen as Travis and Michael Graham discuss the book, the stats, and what we can do to help connect people to Jesus and His church.

Referenced in this episode is Dechurching.com, The Keller Center.

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#thegreatdechurching #Christianity #church #churchinnorthamerica #reformation #rechurching #Jesus #Christ #brideofchrist #hope #christisking #MichaelGraham #theKellerCenter #apolloswatered #wateringfaith #travismichaelfleming #evangelicalism #Christian #goodnews #churchattendance #americanevangelicalism

Takeaways:

• The term 'dechurching' describes individuals who attended church regularly but now do so less than once a year.
• Michael Graham's research reveals a staggering 40 million people have left church over the past 25 years.
• Many who left did so for pragmatic reasons, not due to theological disagreements or scandals.
• Over half of those who left evangelical churches are open to returning if invited.
• The study identifies distinct profiles of de churched individuals, each with unique reasons and circumstances.
• There is hope as many de churched individuals still maintain a positive view of evangelicalism.

Today, we welcome one of the greatest living historians of American history, George Marsden, who can help us do just that. Dr. Marsden brings Edwards into the twenty-first century, along with Augustine and C.S. Lewis, he helps us to see how we can reorient our lives in our modern times to be more God-centered and ordered by our loves rather than the algorithms of our modern world.

Dr. Marsden is Professor of History Emeritus at the University of Notre Dame, is an influential historian who has written extensively on the interaction between Christianity and American culture, particularly on Christianity in American higher education and on American evangelicalism. He is well known for his biography Jonathan Edwards: A Life. He has authored other books including The Soul of the American University, Religion and American Culture, Fundamentalism and American Culture, and C.S. Lewis’s “Mere Christianity”: A Biography.

Marsden studied at Haverford College, Westminster Theological Seminary, and Yale University; he has taught at Calvin University, Duke University, and the University of Notre Dame.

Today, we discuss his newest book on Edwards, "An Infinite Fountain of Light: Jonathan Edwards for the Twenty-First Century."

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Takeaways:

• The exploration of Jonathan Edwards' theological insights offers a profound understanding of authentic Christianity amid contemporary ideological distractions.
• Dr. George Marsden emphasizes the importance of historical context when interpreting the works of Jonathan Edwards and their relevance today.
• Edwards' notion of rightly ordered loves serves as a guiding principle for Christians to assess their faith and its impact on their community.
• Understanding the intersection of Christianity and culture is essential to grasp how faith evolves and influences societal norms over time.
• The revivalist spirit of the 18th century, exemplified by Edwards, invites a reconsideration of modern evangelical practices and their theological foundations.
• Marsden articulates the necessity of humility and charity as core virtues within the Christian community, reflecting the true essence of Christ-like love.

What is the mission of the church today? What role does the cultural mandate play? And how can the 20th-century Dutch missiologist, J.H. Bavinck help us understand the mission today so that we can do it both faithfully and fruitfully? What role does contextualization play in communicating that mission? That's what we discussed on today's show!

Daniel Strange is the director of Crosslands Forum and the vice president of The Southgate Fellowship. He is one of the inaugural fellows of The Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics and is the author of Their Rock Is Not Like Our Rock: A Theology of Religions (Zondervan, 2015), Plugged In (The Good Book Company, 2019), and Making Faith Magnetic (The Good Book Company, 2021) (the book we are talking about today!) He is a contributing editor for Themelios and an elder of Hope Community Church, Gateshead, U.K., which is part of the Fellowship of Evangelical Churches (FIEC).

It's a fantastic, fun, and faith-filled conversation that can help you build a bridge with unbelievers so that they too can know Jesus. This is a must-listen!

Check out #177 Daniel Strange, Pt. 1 and #178 Daniel Strange, Pt. 2

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In this episode, Travis and Jenn discuss some of the seven deadly sins, and how our contemporary online lives are often guilty of the sin of vainglory, and our constant scrolling is a form of the ancient sin of acedia. We need to address these sins and cultivate habits that enable godliness.

Jen is a writer, speaker, coach, and podcast host. She is the author of five books: A Habit Called Faith, Surprised by Paradox (winner of Christianity Today’s 2020 Award of Merit for Beautiful Orthodoxy), Keeping Place, and Teach Us to Want (winner of Christianity Today’s 2015 Book of the Year). She holds a B.A. in French from Wheaton College, an M.A. in Literature from Northwestern University, and is working to complete an M.F.A from Seattle Pacific University. After eleven years of living in Toronto, Jen now lives in Cincinnati with her husband and two youngest children. You can follow Jen on Twitter and Instagram @jenpmichel, subscribe to her Monday letters at www.jenpollockmichel.com, and listen to episodes of the Englewood Review of Books podcast.

Learn more about Jen

Listen to Part 1

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Today, we welcome Jen Pollock Michel onto the show to discuss her book, In Good Time.

Jen is a writer, speaker, coach, and podcast host. She is the author of five books: A Habit Called Faith, Surprised by Paradox (winner of Christianity Today’s 2020 Award of Merit for Beautiful Orthodoxy), Keeping Place, and Teach Us to Want (winner of Christianity Today’s 2015 Book of the Year). She holds a B.A. in French from Wheaton College, an M.A. in Literature from Northwestern University, and is working to complete an M.F.A from Seattle Pacific University. After eleven years of living in Toronto, Jen now lives in Cincinnati with her husband and her two youngest children. You can follow Jen on Twitter and Instagram @jenpmichel, subscribe to her Monday letters at www.jenpollockmichel.com, and listen to episodes of the Englewood Review of Books podcast.

Learn more about Jen

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Takeaways:

• The conversation emphasizes the importance of reexamining our relationship with time in order to avoid the pitfalls of modern productivity culture, which often views individuals as mere machines.
• Jen Pollock Michel's book, 'In Good Time', introduces eight habits designed to help individuals resist the impulse to hurry and embrace a more peaceful approach to productivity.
• The podcast discusses the notion that time management, as understood today, has been co-opted by modern assumptions, detracting from its original biblical intent of redeeming time.
• The hosts reflect on the societal pressures that lead individuals to feel excessively busy, often at the expense of meaningful relationships and spiritual growth.
• A significant theme of the episode is the concept of belonging and how our relationships with others are fundamental to living out our faith amidst the chaos of contemporary life.
• The discussion also touches on the alarming conditions faced by workers in modern corporations like Amazon, which serve as a metaphor for broader societal issues concerning human dignity and productivity.

They also tackle the topic of political engagement for Christians, especially during an election cycle characterized by division and moral complexity. Mohler asserts that while Christians must take a stand on social issues such as abortion and marriage, they should do so with a spirit of humility and a clear understanding of the gospel's transformative power. The discussion is rich with historical context, drawing on past theological insights to inform current practices, and highlights the importance of establishing vibrant, convictional communities that reflect the teachings of Christ. Mohler's insights serve as both a warning and a call to action for believers navigating the tumultuous waters of modernity, urging them to embrace their faith with courage and conviction while engaging meaningfully with a world that is increasingly hostile to traditional values.

Takeaways:

• Dr. Albert Mohler emphasizes the importance of a thick Christian culture that transcends contemporary cultural norms.
• The decline of church attendance reflects a loss of cultural convenience rather than conviction.
• Engaging in the political arena is necessary for Christians, but we must maintain integrity.
• The church must focus on translating the gospel into every culture while retaining its essence.
• Mohler argues for the necessity of Christianity in supporting liberal democracy and human dignity.
• Christians should not fear societal decline but rather engage with renewed commitment to faith.

Learn more about Dr. Mohler, his program The Briefing, and The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

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Travis welcomes special guest Pete Wehner to the show today. Pete is a Senior Fellow at the Trinity Forum, a writer and thinker who served in the Reagan administration and both Bush presidencies including as head of the office for strategic initiatives. He has written three books and has written for many publications, recently for The Atlantic and the NY Times. I met Pete at a symposium and found him to be a thoughtful and insightful voice in evangelicalism and into evangelicals' political involvement. He is a committed Christian, a political insider, and a voice needed for this moment.

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Takeaways:

• The healing of a country fundamentally relies on the healing of individual lives, emphasizing personal relationships.
• As Christians, it is imperative to engage with those who differ in opinion, fostering understanding and compassion rather than viewing them as mere political adversaries.
• Political engagement should reflect our identity as Christians, prioritizing our faith over partisanship and political gain.
• The Christian witness is severely compromised when political actions contradict the core tenets of love and unity emphasized by Jesus.
• Building genuine relationships and understanding others' stories is essential for reducing divisions within the church and society at large.
• In politically charged climates, Christians are called to embody the values of patience and compassion, reflecting Christ's teachings in all interactions.

Travis welcomes special guest Pete Wehner to the show today. Pete is a Senior Fellow at the Trinity Forum, a writer and thinker who served in the Reagan administration and both Bush presidencies including as head of the office for strategic initiatives. He has written three books and has written for many publications, recently for The Atlantic and the NY Times. I met Pete at a symposium and found him to be a thoughtful and insightful voice in evangelicalism and into evangelicals' political involvement. He is a committed Christian, a political insider, and a voice needed for this moment.

Episodes featured in today's show: Misreading Scripture with Individualist Eyes by Randy Richards.

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Takeaways:

• The healing of a nation fundamentally relies on the healing of individual lives, emphasizing personal transformation.
• Engaging with differing perspectives within one’s community fosters understanding and deepens relationships, transcending mere political discourse.
• The political landscape today poses significant challenges for communities of faith, often resulting in division among congregants and families.
• Christians must navigate the complexities of political engagement while maintaining their commitment to the teachings of Jesus Christ.
• Many church leaders express a desire to avoid political discussions to focus solely on spiritual matters, yet they must confront the realities of their congregants' beliefs.
• The approach to politics among Christians should be characterized by integrity, empathy, and a commitment to truth, rather than divisive rhetoric.

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In this second conversation with professor and former missionary, Matthew Bennett, they continue to discuss his book, Hope for American Evangelicals.

Using Lesslie Newbigin as a guide, Matthew takes a missionary perspective to help us look at the American evangelical house and what needs to be done to remodel it by removing the rot and enhancing the good. Travis and Matthew discuss evangelicalism, missions, contextualization, multi-ethnic ministry, sexual ethics and so much more. It's a conversation to help you find the connecting points to reach your world with the glorious news of Jesus.

Check out part 1 of the conversation or Reaching and Teaching Ministries International.

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Travis welcomes Amy Howley Pierson to the show to discuss her book, Makers in a Thinker's World: What Brain Science Teaches about the Spiritually Transforming Power of Creativity. Rediscover what it means to be creative, what our brains say about it, and how important it is in our spiritual formation.

Learn more about Amy.

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Listen in as Travis continues his discussion with Jeff Haanen on his book, Working from the Inside Out (IVP, 2023). Jeff is a writer, entrepreneur, and founder of the Denver Institute. It's a conversation about how we follow God in our workplace, how transformation takes place, and how we can walk with God in the space where we spend most of our lives.

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Takeaways:

• The essence of every missionary encounter is fundamentally rooted in one's personal identity.
• Our growth in wisdom necessitates an understanding of both God and oneself, as emphasized by Calvin.
• Transformation occurs not merely through intention but through engaging in consistent spiritual practices.
• In the complexity of contemporary culture, discerning our environment is crucial for effective Christian witness.
• The journey of self-discovery is continuous; I remain committed to confronting my past and internal struggles.
• To truly engage with culture, one must be formed from within, allowing the internal to influence the external actions.

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Takeaways:

• The gospel is fundamentally the proclamation of what God has accomplished through Jesus Christ, serving as the ultimate good news for humanity.
• In our contemporary society, vocation must be understood as our active response to God's call, impacting every facet of our lives, including work and culture.
• To effectively engage in Christian mission, we must critically analyze the intricacies of daily life and the various contexts in which individuals operate.
• It is essential for church leaders to comprehend the unique challenges and realities faced by individuals within their respective workplaces.
• The concept of work is often misconstrued; we must reclaim a robust theology of work that integrates faith into everyday professional practices.
• Holistic discipleship requires a deep examination of our identity in Christ and how that informs our interactions and behaviors in the secular world.

Travis and Andrew discuss how the post-Christian West came to be, what it means for us now, and how we can live effectively.

Andrew Wilson (PhD, King’s College London) is the teaching pastor at King’s Church London and a columnist for Christianity Today. He’s the author of several books, including Remaking the World, Incomparable, God of All Things, and Echoes of Exodus. You can follow him on Twitter.

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Today's guest is historian Mark Noll. Mark and Travis talk about C.S. Lewis and his reception by Americans in the early to mid part of the 20th century. Unlike any author before or since, Lewis tapped into the imagination with the truth that people could grab a hold of and understand. Join Travis and Mark as they sift through Lewis' reception by Catholics, Protestants, and the mainstream media. It's a conversation that will stimulate your faith and appreciate God working through him.

Mark is one of the leading church historians in the English-speaking world. Recently retired as the Francis A. McAnaney Professor of History at the University of Notre Dame and before that, he served as Professor of History and Theological Studies at Wheaton College. He taught courses on American religious and intellectual history, the Reformation, world Christianity, and Canadian history.

Dr. Noll has written and edited numerous books, most recently including Evangelicals: Who They Have Been, Are Now, and Could Be (with George Marsden and David Bebbington, Eerdmans, 2019), In the Beginning Was the Word: The Bible in American Public Life (OUP, 2015), From Every Tribe and Nation: A Historian’s Discovery of the Global Christian Story (Baker Academic, 2014), Jesus Christ and the Life of the Mind (Eerdmans, 2011), and Clouds of Witnesses: Christian Voices from Africa and Asia (co-written with Carolyn Nystrom, IVP, 2011). He has also served on the editorial boards for Books & Culture and Christian History and as co-editor of the Library of Religious Biography for Wm. B. Eerdmans. In 2006 he received the National Endowment for the Humanities medal at the White House. Dr. Noll currently lives in Wheaton, Illinois, with his wife, Maggie.

Check out Mark's books.

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Joining Travis on today's show is Dr. Russell Moore, the editor-in-chief of Christianity Today to discuss his new book, "Losing Our Religion: An Altar Call for Evangelical America." Travis and Russell discuss the status of evangelicalism in America. Is it really representative of the upside-down kingdom that Jesus is talking about? Or is it a type of Christian atheism or even, dare we say a form of Christian paganism? What does it mean to be patriotic in the midst of this? Is it possible to be patriotic and not a Christian nationalist? What is wrong with Christian nationalism anyway? These are just some of the questions they discuss on today's show as Russell guides us into the landmines of today's American evangelical landscape, helping us to see where the minefields are, but also where there is safe ground as we seek to be biblical faithful Christians, fulling the mission God has for us in this unique cultural moment.

Conversations like this are meant to help encourage and equip you in your mission encounter with Western culture. Our Western culture has many great things in it, but also some unique underlying idolatries that many who are within a Western culture often miss. Dr. Moore helps us to see some of these idolatries and how many within American evangelicalism are not living out biblical Christianity, but rather destructive idolatries that are toxic to biblical faith. It's a fascinating and insightful conversation and one that will unmask idolatries you may have in order that you may forsake them and live out of the truth of the Gospel as you go about your missionary encounter with Western culture.

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Today, we welcome Ashley Hales to the show to discuss her book, A Spacious Life: Trading Hustle and Hurry for the Goodness of Limits. Travis and Ashley discuss the habits of hurry we have cultivated, the need for rest and rhythm, and steps that we can embrace the spacious life God has laid out for us.

Learn more about Ashley.

Some of the episodes referred to on today's show:

#171 | Transfigure Your Imagination, Pt. 1 | Malcolm Guite

#172 | Transfigure Your Imagination, Pt. 2 | Malcolm Guite

#179 | The Joy Switch, Pt. 1 | Chris Coursey

#180 | The Joy Switch, Pt. 2 | Chris Coursey

#181 | The Evangelical Imagination, Pt. 1 | Karen Swallow Prior

#182 | The Evangelical Imagination, Pt. 2 | Karen Swallow Prior

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Dr. Goheen, drawing on the work of Lesslie Newbigin, takes us into the heart of Western culture showing us that while the Western culture has brought many advances, it has also brought many dangers that are a threat to the propagation of the Christian faith. You will learn more about how we got to his place of having a secular society, the myth of objective secularism, and be able to identify many of the idolatries at work in the West and in the church. Mike also gives us a vision of the story of God's already/but not yet doctrine of the kingdom and our salvation. All of this and more can be found in Mike's book, The Church and Its Vocation: Lesslie Newbigin's Doctrine of Ecclesiology (Baker, 2018).

Dr. Mike Goheen began his professional life as a church planter in the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) and pastor in the Toronto area. Then, for over two decades, he taught worldview studies, biblical theology, and missiology at Dordt College, Redeemer University College, Trinity Western University, Regent College, and Calvin Theological Seminary. For most of that time, he has held part-time pastoral and preaching positions in local congregations.

Presently, he splits his time between Vancouver, Canada, and Phoenix, Arizona, where he directs the theological education program at the Missional Training Center (MTC). He also serves as scholar-in-residence for Surge Network of churches in Phoenix.

Mike has authored, co-authored, or edited twelve books, including Introducing Christian Mission Today: Scripture, History, and Issues (IVP, 2014), and A Light to the Nations: The Missional Church and the Biblical Story (Baker, 2011). He spends time each year in Brazil, Chile, and Hungary training pastoral leaders.

Mike has been married to Marnie since 1979. They have four married children and eleven grandchildren.

Learn more about Mike and the Missional Training Center and check out his books.

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Dr. Goheen, drawing on the work of Lesslie Newbigin, takes us into the heart of Western culture showing us that while the Western culture has brought many advances, it has also brought many dangers that are a threat to the propagation of the Christian faith. You will learn more about how we got to his place of having a secular society, the myth of objective secularism, and be able to identify many of the idolatries at work in the West and in the church. Mike also gives us a vision of the story of God's already/but not yet doctrine of the kingdom and our salvation. All of this and more can be found in Mike's book, The Church and Its Vocation: Lesslie Newbigin's Doctrine of Ecclesiology (Baker, 2018).

Dr. Mike Goheen began his professional life as a church planter in the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) and pastor in the Toronto area. Then, for over two decades, he taught worldview studies, biblical theology, and missiology at Dordt College, Redeemer University College, Trinity Western University, Regent College, and Calvin Theological Seminary. For most of that time, he has held part-time pastoral and preaching positions in local congregations.

Presently, he splits his time between Vancouver, Canada, and Phoenix, Arizona, where he directs the theological education program at the Missional Training Center (MTC). He also serves as scholar-in-residence for Surge Network of churches in Phoenix.

Mike has authored, co-authored, or edited twelve books, including Introducing Christian Mission Today: Scripture, History, and Issues (IVP, 2014), and A Light to the Nations: The Missional Church and the Biblical Story (Baker, 2011). He spends time each year in Brazil, Chile, and Hungary training pastoral leaders.

Mike has been married to Marnie since 1979. They have four married children and eleven grandchildren.

Learn more about Mike and the Missional Training Center and check out his books.

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In the Psalms, we are taught how to look forward to the Messiah's kingdom, how to lament, celebrate, praise, trust, and recognize God's coming King. It is one of the most mysterious books and the most encouraging books, and it can be an interpretive minefield, which is why it helps to have such a renowned Old Testament scholar like Bruce Waltke step in as our guide.

Travis and Bruce discuss his most recent book which he co-authored with Fred G. Zaspel, How To Read and Understand the Psalms (Crossway, 2023). Dr. Waltke is one of the preeminent Old Testament scholars, an "ent" of Old Testament studies. He holds a doctorate in Greek and New Testament from Dallas Theological Seminary and a doctorate in Ancient Near Eastern Languages and Literature from Harvard.

His teaching career, spanning Dallas Theological Seminary, Regent College, Reformed Theological Seminary, Westminster Theological Seminary, and Knox Theological Seminary won him a reputation of being a master teacher with a pastoral heart. Dr. Waltke also pastored several churches, lectured at many evangelical seminaries in North America and has spoken at numerous Bible conferences.

He is a member of the Committee of Bible Translation of the New International Version and helped translate the New American Standard Version. He served as editor for the Theological Word Book of the Old Testament, The New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology and Exegesis, The New Geneva Study Bible, and Spirit of the Reformation Study Bible.

Dr. Waltke has traveled widely as a Bible expositor, as an Area Supervisor for excavations at Gezer, Israel, and as Director of field study trips to the Middle East and the Classical World. He is married and has three grown children.

Dr. Waltke has published widely in various scholarly journals and contributed to many scholarly reference volumes.

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Anne is the editor-in-chief of Comment Magazine, host of The Whole Person Revolution podcast, and co-editor of Breaking Ground: Charting Our Future in a Pandemic Year.

Prior to working at Comment, she worked for Laity Lodge, the H.E. Butt Foundation in Texas, the Ethics and Public Policy Center, World Affairs Journal, and the New York Times. She is a Senior Fellow at the Trinity Forum and a Fellow at the Urban Reform Institute.

She is the author of The Fabric of Character: A Wise Giver’s Guide to Renewing our Social and Moral Landscape (2019) and has been published in The Atlantic Monthly, the Washington Post, and Bittersweet Monthly.

Anne spent the formative years of her childhood overseas. Upon returning to the U.S. she received her bachelor’s degree from Wheaton College (IL) and a master’s degree from Georgetown University. She currently lives in Washington, D.C.

Anne referred to a variety of books today:

Keys to Bonhoeffer's Haus: Exploring the World and Wisdom of Dietrich Bonhoeffer by Laura M. Fabrycky.

The Story of the Trapp Family Singers by Maria Von Trapp

My Bright Abyss: Meditation of a Modern Believer by Christian Wiman

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Today's guest is Pastor and Theologian Chris Castaldo back to the show to discuss his new book, Upside-Down Kingdom. They discuss the Beatitudes and everyday life, but season it with all things Italy, Italian food, the Italian Reformation, and so much more.

Chris is the author of Holy Ground: Walking with Jesus as a Former Catholic, Talking with Catholics About the Gospel: A Guide for Evangelicals, and co-authored more.

Listen to the first part of the conversation: #204 | Living A Countercultural Life, Pt. 1 | Chris Castaldo

Check out Chris' website.

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Today's guest is Pastor and Theologian Chris Castaldo back to the show to discuss his new book, Upside-Down Kingdom. They discuss the Beatitudes, and everyday life, but season it with all things Italy, Italian food, the Italian Reformation, and so much more.

Chris is the author of Holy Ground: Walking with Jesus as a Former Catholic, Talking with Catholics About the Gospel: A Guide for Evangelicals, and co-authored more.

Check out Chris' website.

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Chris Martin is a content marketing editor at Moody Publishers and a social media, marketing, and communications consultant. He writes regularly in his newsletter, Terms of Service, and refers to Bibletolife.com

It's a conversation about where we all live and the challenges that the social internet brings to each one of us. Chris lives outside Nashville, Tennessee with his wife, Susie, their daughter, Magnolia, and their dog, Rizzo.

Check out part 1- #202 | The Wolf In Your Pocket, Pt. 1 | Chris Martin

Some other episodes on technology and its effect on us:

#84 | Analog Church | Jay Y. Kim

#95 | Restless Devices-Countering Conformity With Ancient Christian Practices, Pt. 1 | Felicia Wu Song

#96 | Restless Devices-Countering Conformity With Ancient Christian Practices, Pt. 2 | Felicia Wu Song

#160 | Analog Christian | Jay Y. Kim

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Chris Martin is a content marketing editor at Moody Publishers and a social media, marketing, and communications consultant. He writes regularly in his newsletter, Terms of Service, and refers to Bibletolife.com

Travis and Chris discuss his new book from Moody Publishers, The Wolf in Our Pockets: 13 Ways the Social Internet Threatens the People You Lead? It's a conversation about where we all live and the challenges that the social internet brings to each one of us. Chris lives outside Nashville, Tennessee with his wife, Susie, their daughter, Magnolia, and their dog, Rizzo.

Some other episodes on technology and its effect on us:

#84 | Analog Church | Jay Y. Kim

#95 | Restless Devices-Countering Conformity With Ancient Christian Practices, Pt. 1 | Felicia Wu Song

#96 | Restless Devices-Countering Conformity With Ancient Christian Practices, Pt. 2 | Felicia Wu Song

#160 | Analog Christian | Jay Y. Kim

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The question is: are sinners welcome at your church? Yes, we call people to repentance, but when does that happen? Do you require them to behave before they belong? Believe? What's the order? Do they have to look and sound like everybody else before they are accepted? What are the standards? Who is in and who is out? Is there room for a process? What happens when someone sins? What about the person who is in sin and just starting to come to church and wants to learn? And what about the person who is considered an insider but whose personal life is a complete mess? What do we do? What is more important: believing? behaving? belonging? Which should come first? And what does that matter?

Our guide in our journey today is Dr. Mark Baker. Mark is the J.B. Toews Chair Professor of Mission and Theology at Fresno Pacific Biblical Seminary and the author of Centered-Set Church: Discipleship and Community Without Judgmentalism (Downers Grove, IL: IVP Academic, 2021)

Mark helps us to examine what he calls three different approaches to church. Borrowing from the missiologist Paul Hiebert, he helps us to see what is considered a "bounded set," "fuzzy set," and a "centered" set approach to church. This is a conversation about where you live in the everyday-its about how we judge and shame others, and what the best approach is to ensure flexibility with the process while honoring the purity of obedience. You can learn more at Centered-Set Church.

Get the first part of the conversation:

#200 | Does Your Church Allow For People In Process?, Pt. 1 | Mark Baker

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Our guide in our journey today is Dr. Mark Baker. Mark is the J.B. Toews Chair Professor of Mission and Theology at Fresno Pacific Biblical Seminary and the author of Centered-Set Church: Discipleship and Community Without Judgmentalism (Downers Grove, IL: IVP Academic, 2021)

Mark helps us to examine what he calls three different approaches to church. Borrowing from the missiologist Paul Hiebert, he helps us to see what is considered a "bounded set," "fuzzy set," and a "centered" set approach to church. This is a conversation about where you live in the everyday-its about how we judge and shame others, and what the best approach is to ensure flexibility with the process while honoring the purity of obedience. You can learn more at Centered-Set Church.

Kevin also mentioned some of his favorite episodes:

#105 | Prophetic Voices in Chaotic Times | Trevin Wax

#117 | Defending Shame, Pt. 1 | Te-Li Lau

#118 | Defending Shame, Pt. 2 | Te-Li Lau

#126 | You Are Not Your Own Pt. 1 | Alan Noble

#127 | You Are Not Your Own, Pt. 2 | Alan Noble

#129 | Relax, You're Only Human, Pt. 1 | Kelly Kapic

#131 | Relax, You're Only Human, Pt. 2 | Kelly Kapic

#164 | The Thrill of Orthodoxy, Pt. 1 | Trevin Wax

#165 | The Thrill of Orthodoxy, Pt. 2 | Trevin Wax

Travis referred to some of his:

#60 | The Magna Carta of Humanity, Pt. 1 | Os Guinness

#61 | The Magna Carta of Humanity, Pt. 2 | Os Guinness

#166 | Biblical Critical Theory, Pt. 1 | Christopher Watkin

#167 | Biblical Critical Theory, Pt. 2 | Christopher Watkin

#171 | Transfigure Your Imagination, Pt. 1 | Malcolm Guite

#172 | Transfigure Your Imagination, Pt. 2 | Malcolm Guite

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Takeaways:

• The concept of a centered-set church shifts the focus from rigid boundaries to a relational orientation toward Jesus, fostering inclusivity.
• In a centered-set framework, individuals are recognized as belonging based on their movement towards the center, rather than strict adherence to rules.
• The centered-set model encourages deep transformation and discipleship, as it emphasizes personal growth and relational connection over judgmentalism.
• By prioritizing relationship with Jesus as the center, churches can cultivate a more compassionate and understanding community, moving beyond superficial metrics of membership.

Travis welcomes Charles Stone to the show today. Charles has been a pastor for over 40 years serving as a Lead Pastor, Teaching Pastor, Associate Pastor, and Church planter. He has an engineering degree from Georgia Tech, a Master's of Divinity from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, and a Doctorate of Ministry from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. His most recent degree is an executive master's in the neuroscience of leadership from The Neuroleadership Institute. He's completing a post-baccalaureate certificate in Therapeutic Models of Mindfulness from Wilfred Laurier University and has completed a graduate certificate in Mind, Brain, and Teaching from Johns Hopkins University. He's currently enrolled in the Ph.D. program at Columbia Biblical Seminary and is researching stress in pastors.

He's been professionally trained in these areas by these organizations:

• Professional coaching through the Professional Christian Coaching Institute (ACC certified under the International Coaching Federation)
• Strategic Planning through Ministry Advantage (certified)
• Vision Clarity through the Church Unique Process with Auxano (certified)
• Conflict Management through Peacemakers
• Brain-Based Leadership through the Neuroleadership Institute and the Academy of Brain-Based Leadership

Learn more about Charles and get the book.

If you want to learn more about neurotheology through these episodes:

If you want to learn more about neurotheology check out our previous conversations:

#107 | Jim Wilder, God on the Brain, Pt. 1

#108 | Jim Wilder, God on the Brain, Pt. 2

#109 | Michel Hendricks-Relational Reformation, Pt. 1

#110 | Michel Hendricks-Relational Reformation, Pt. 2

#120 | Marcus Warner: Our Walk, Wounds, and Warfare, Pt. 1

#121 | Marcus Warner: Our Walk, Wounds, and Warfare, Pt. 2

#140 | Jim Wilder, Escaping Enemy Mode, Pt. 1

#141 | Jim Wilder, Escaping Enemy Mode, Pt. 2

#179 | The Joy Switch, Pt. 1 | Chris Coursey

#180 | The Joy Switch, Pt. 2 | Chris Coursey

#193 | Escaping Enemy Mode in Marriage & Families | Jim Wilder

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Today we welcome Dr. Gina Zurlo for the second part of our conversation about Global Christianity. Dr. Zurlo holds a PhD in History and Hermeneutics from Boston University School of Theology (2017). She is the Co-Director of the Center for the Study of Global Christianity at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary (South Hamilton, MA) and Visiting Research Fellow at Boston University’s Institute on Culture, Religion and World Affairs. She is an interdisciplinary scholar, crossing between history, sociology, and World Christianity with a particular interest in women’s experiences of Christianity and church life worldwide.

Dr. Zurlo is the co-editor of the World Christian Database (Brill) and associate editor of the World Religion Database (Brill). She is one of the authors of the third edition of the World Christian Encyclopedia (Edinburgh University Press, 2019), which covers the history and current status of Christianity in every country of the world down to the denominational level.

Travis and Dr. Zurlo discuss her newest book, Christianity Around the World, which is a popular reference work to introduce readers to the state of Christianity in every nation of the world, complete with colorful maps and graphs. They discuss the state of Christianity in America, how it is shifting, and what it means for us today.

If you want to hear the first part of this conversation:

#197 | What Does the Future of Christianity Look Like? Pt. 1 | Gina Zurlo

Some other episodes related to this episode or referred to in this episode:

#30 | What God Is Doing In The World, Pt. 1 | Todd M. Johnson

#32 | What God Is Doing In The World, Pt. 2 | Todd M. Johnson

#69 | The Insanity of God, Pt. 1 | Nik Ripken

#70 | The Insanity of God, Pt. 2 | Nik Ripken

#71 | The Insanity of God, Pt. 3 | Nik Ripken

#103 | Reaching the Nations in Your Neighborhood | David Garrison

#161 | Inalienable: How Marginalized Kingdom Voices Can Help Save The American Church | Eric Costanzo, Daniel Yang, & Matthew Soerens

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Dr. Gina A. Zurlo holds a PhD in History and Hermeneutics from Boston University School of Theology (2017). She is the Co-Director of the Center for the Study of Global Christianity at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary (South Hamilton, MA) and Visiting Research Fellow at Boston University’s Institute on Culture, Religion and World Affairs. She is an interdisciplinary scholar, crossing between history, sociology, and World Christianity with a particular interest in women’s experiences of Christianity and church life worldwide.

Dr. Zurlo is the co-editor of the World Christian Database (Brill) and associate editor of the World Religion Database (Brill). She is one of the authors of the third edition of the World Christian Encyclopedia (Edinburgh University Press, 2019), which covers the history and current status of Christianity in every country of the world down to the denominational level.

Travis and Dr. Zurlo discuss her newest book, Christianity Around the World, which is a popular reference work to introduce readers to the state of Christianity in every nation of the world, complete with colorful maps and graphs. They discuss the state of Christianity in America, how it is shifting, and what it means for us today.

Some other episodes related to this episode:

#30 | What God Is Doing In The World, Pt. 1 | Todd M. Johnson

#32 | What God Is Doing In The World, Pt. 2 | Todd M. Johnson

#103 | Reaching the Nations in Your Neighborhood | David Garrison

#161 | Inalienable: How Marginalized Kingdom Voices Can Help Save The American Church | Eric Costanzo, Daniel Yang, & Matthew Soerens

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God continues to grow our ministry, but He calls people like you to help do it! Support the Ministry of Apollos Watered today!

If we are to fulfill the mission of God, we need to know how to apply the Scripture to our lives, and in order to do that effectively, it helps to understand the social world of the New Testament. When we do that, our understanding, appreciation, and application of Scriptural truth is expanded and strengthened, and we are able to have the Scripture speak to us in our everyday lives and where we really live.

Our guide in our journey for this second conversation on the subject is New Testament and Greek scholar Dr. David DeSilva. Travis and David discuss his book, Honor, Patronage, Kinship, and Purity: Unlocking the New Testament Culture, a book that has become a major influence in understanding the world of the New Testament and how it relates to many of our modern honor-shame cultures (cancel culture is all about honor and shame).

It's a conversation that will enlighten, challenge, and encourage you to go deeper in your understanding and appreciation of the Bible and God's plan for you.

If you want to listen to the first part of the conversation:

#195 | Are We Living For Biblical Honor Or Worldly Success? Pt. 1 | David DeSilva

More about honor and shame:

#15 | Increase Your Vision of God and the World | Jackson Wu

#26 | Misreading Scripture With Individualist Eyes | Randy Richards

#34 | Rediscovering Hospitality: A Lesson from Eastern Cultures | Jayson Georges

#64 | Finding Hope, Shedding Shame, Pt. 1 | Audrey Frank

#65 | Finding Hope, Shedding Shame, Pt. 2 | Audrey Frank

#117 | Defending Shame, Pt. 1 | Te-Li Lau

#118 | Defending Shame, Pt. 2 | Te-Li Lau

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God continues to grow our ministry, but He calls people like you to help do it! Support the Ministry of Apollos Watered today!

If we are to fulfill the mission of God, we need to know how to apply the Scripture to our lives, and in order to do that effectively, it helps to understand the social world of the New Testament. When we do that, our understanding, appreciation, and application of Scriptural truth is expanded and strengthened, and we are able to have the Scripture speak to us in our everyday lives and where we really live.

Our guide in our journey into the social world of the New Testament is New Testament and Greek scholar Dr. David DeSilva. Travis and David discuss his book, Honor, Patronage, Kinship, and Purity: Unlocking the New Testament Culture, a book that has become a major influence in understanding the world of the New Testament and how it relates to many of our modern honor-shame cultures (cancel culture is all about honor and shame).

It's a conversation that will enlighten, challenge, and encourage you to go deeper in your understanding and appreciation of the Bible and God's plan for you.

Travis referenced a few episodes on today's show:

#117 | Defending Shame, Pt. 1 | Te-Li Lau

#118 | Defending Shame, Pt. 2 | Te-Li Lau

#107: Jim Wilder, God on the Brain, Pt. 1

#108: Jim Wilder, God on the Brain, Pt. 2

#150 | Scriptural Illiteracy & Secular Imagination, Pt. 1 | Kevin Vanhoozer

#151 | Scriptural Illiteracy & Secular Imagination, Pt. 2 | Kevin Vanhoozer

#122 | Does God Still Do Biblical Miracles in The Modern World, Pt. 1 | Craig Keener

#123 | Does God Still Do Biblical Miracles in The Modern World, Pt. 2 | Craig Keener

Travis also referenced Kent and Barbara Hughes's book, Liberating the Ministry from the Success Syndrome.

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Travis welcomes Dr. Scott Sunquist, President of Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, to the show to help us navigate and harness the story of history so that we might be able to help the church chart a new path forward in our modern post-everything world. Christian history can help us understand who we are, where we have come from, and how we fit into what God is doing in the world. That being said, history is much more than a record of what happened in the past, it is an unfolding of a story, and that story must be told accurately, or it could lead to disastrous results in the present.

Travis and Dr. Sunquist discuss his book, The Shape of Christian History, and how Christian history helps guide us when done correctly. It's a conversation that enlightens, equips, and encourages you to press forward in fulfilling the mission God has for you where you are.

Scott is the author of The Unexpected Christian Century: The Reversal and Transformation of Global Christianity, 1900-2000, Understanding Christian Mission: Participation in Suffering and Glory, Why Church?: A Basic Introduction, and co-author of History of the World Christian Movement: Earliest Christianity to 1453, History of the World Christian Movement: Modern Christianity from 1454-1800.

Check out more episodes dealing with Global Christianity and Christian history:

#30 | What God Is Doing In The World, Pt. 1 | Todd M. Johnson

#32 | What God Is Doing In The World, Pt. 2 | Todd M. Johnson

#72 | Is Secularization Killing Your Faith? | Philip Jenkins

#170 | Polycentric Missiology: Everyone to Everywhere | Allen Yeh

#175 | Eating Theology With The World | Gene Green

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It's a conversation that helps equip us to recognize when we go into enemy mode in our marriage or with our kids, and how we can find a way out. This isn't a theoretical conversation, but one rooted in the Fleming household whenever one of its members goes into enemy mode, and we are willing to bet that your house is a lot like theirs!

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Learn more about Life Model Works.

If you want to learn more about neurotheology check out our previous conversations:

#140: Jim Wilder, Escaping Enemy Mode, Pt. 1

#141: Jim Wilder, Escaping Enemy Mode, Pt. 2

#107: Jim Wilder, God on the Brain, Pt. 1

#108: Jim Wilder, God on the Brain, Pt. 2

#109: Michel Hendricks-Relational Reformation, Pt. 1

#110: Michel Hendricks-Relational Reformation, Pt. 2

#120 Marcus Warner: Our Walk, Wounds, and Warfare, Pt. 1

#121 Marcus Warner: Our Walk, Wounds, and Warfare, Pt. 2

#179 | The Joy Switch, Pt. 1 | Chris Coursey

#180 | The Joy Switch, Pt. 2 | Chris Coursey

Get Jim's books: Escaping Enemy Mode, The Other Half of Church, Renovated: God, Dallas Willard, and the Church that Transforms, Joy Starts Here: the transformation zone, Joyful Journey: Listening to Immanuel, The Pandora Problem: Facing Narcissism in Leaders and Ourselves, Rare Leadership, Rare Leadership in the Workplace, and The Solution of Choice.

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Ajith serves as Teaching Director of Youth for Christ in Sri Lanka after being National Director for 35 years. His grassroots ministry has been and is primarily with the urban poor. Learn more about Ajith.

Listen to the first part: #191 | How Do We Disciples In A Multicultural World? Pt. 1 | Ajith Fernando

Tips for those wanting to understand shame:

#117 | Defending Shame, Pt. 1 | Te-Li Lau

#118 | Defending Shame, Pt. 2 | Te-Li Lau

Tips for sharing the Gospel cross-culturally:

#115 | Good News In A Diverse World, Pt. 1 | Jay Moon & Bud Simon

#116 | Good News In A Diverse World, Pt. 2 | Jay Moon & Bud Simon

Learn more about suffering:

#147 | Help and Hope in Your Suffering, Pt. 1 | Mark Talbot

#148 | Help and Hope in Your Suffering, Pt. 2 | Mark Talbot

And other episodes referred to in this episode:

#170 | Polycentric Missiology: Everyone to Everywhere | Allen Yeh

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Takeaways:

• The truth is foundational to our faith, yet the methods of understanding it must adapt to the cultural context in which we find ourselves.
• The communal aspect of discipleship is paramount; we cannot faithfully follow Christ in isolation.
• Suffering is often marginalized in Western theology, yet it plays a crucial role in the sanctification process of believers.
• Prayer serves not only as a means of communication with God but also acts as a therapeutic element for the soul, affirming our identity and security in Christ.
• Culturally appropriate teaching methods are essential; they allow us to engage with the truth of Scripture in a way that resonates with diverse audiences.
• The concept of insider movements highlights the complexities of faith expression in multicultural contexts, necessitating a nuanced understanding of how believers navigate their cultural identities.

Ajith serves as Teaching Director of Youth for Christ in Sri Lanka after being National Director for 35 years. These days his main responsibilities in YFC are counseling, mentoring, and teaching staff and volunteers. With his wife Nelun he is active in a Methodist Church just outside Colombo, most of whose members are recent believers. His grassroots ministry has been and is primarily with the urban poor. Learn more about Ajith.

Some of the biases we have as Westerners approaching the Scriptures:

#26 | Misreading Scripture With Individualist Eyes | Randy Richards

For those who desire to hear how technology is influencing our spiritual formation:

#95 | Restless Devices-Countering Conformity With Ancient Christian Practices, Pt. 1 | Felicia Wu Song

#96 | Restless Devices-Countering Conformity With Ancient Christian Practices, Pt. 2 | Felicia Wu Song

Other episodes referred to in the episode dealing with Asian culture both in the West and non-West, as well as secularization:

#15 | Increase Your Vision of God and the World | Jackson Wu

#34 | Rediscovering Hospitality: A Lesson from Eastern Cultures | Jayson Georges

Tips for those wanting to understand shame:

#117 | Defending Shame, Pt. 1 | Te-Li Lau

#118 | Defending Shame, Pt. 2 | Te-Li Lau

Tips for sharing the Gospel cross-culturally:

#115 | Good News In A Diverse World, Pt. 1 | Jay Moon & Bud Simon

#116 | Good News In A Diverse World, Pt. 2 | Jay Moon & Bud Simon

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God continues to grow our ministry, but He calls people like you to help do it! Support the Ministry of Apollos Watered today!

Often times that is not the case for those who come from different cultural backgrounds, but who were born and live in the United States. Today, we welcome, Linson Daniel and Sabrina Chan to the show, two of the four authors of the book, Learning Our Names: Asian American Christians on Identity, Relationships, and Vocation (IVP, 2022) (Sabrina Chan, Linson Daniel, LA Thao, E. David de Leon).

They help us to see the unique obstacles and experiences that second-generation Asians face as they attempt to navigate the majority Caucasian cultural landscape of the United States and the church. They write from diverse perspectives within the Asian Christian community (East Asian, Southeast Asian, and South Asian) giving a unique insight into a growing and significant group.

It is a conversation that helps inform and enlighten, but also carries an invitation to learn and grow in what it means to be a disciple of Jesus in a multicultural world so that the glory of Christ might shine forth. If you are from a cultural background other than Asian, listen in as they discuss their unique challenges. For those who are from Asian American backgrounds, it is an encouragement to share your story.

Linson Daniel is Associate Pastor of METRO Church with locations in Frisco and Farmers Branch, TX. The son of Indian Immigrants from Kerala, he was born in Mesquite, TX. He is a married father of two. Learn more about Linson.

Sabrina S. Chan is the national director of Asian American Ministries for InterVarsity, and a daughter of immigrants from Hong Kong. She is a married mother of two. Learn more about Sabrina. Find her on social media @sabrinachanwrites.

Sabrina referenced the book Following Jesus Without Dishonoring Your Parents.

To learn more about the various Diaspora peoples, check out:

#144 | God on the Move Among Diaspora Peoples | Sam George

Hear some personal stories as well as what God is doing in the West through various people groups as well as various issues that came up in the conversation:

#5 | Culture, Community, and Confronting Cries of Injustice | Daniel Yang

#161 | Inalienable: How Marginalized Kingdom Voices Can Help Save The American Church | Eric Costanzo, Daniel Yang, & Matthew Soerens

#170 | Polycentric Missiology: Everyone to Everywhere | Allen Yeh

#175 | Eating Theology With The World | Gene Green

#53 | The Beautiful Community, Pt. 1 | Irwyn L. Ince, Jr.

#55 | The Beautiful Community, Pt. 2 | Irwyn L. Ince, Jr.

#30 | What God Is Doing In The World, Pt. 1 | Todd M. Johnson

#32 | What God Is Doing In The World, Pt. 2 | Todd M. Johnson

Some of the biases we have as Westerners approaching the Scriptures:

#26 | Misreading Scripture With Individualist Eyes | Randy Richards

For those who come from Asian backgrounds wanting to hear more interviews from Asian American Christians:

#95 | Restless Devices-Countering Conformity With Ancient Christian Practices, Pt. 1 | Felicia Wu Song

#96 | Restless Devices-Countering Conformity With Ancient Christian Practices, Pt. 2 | Felicia Wu Song

#84 | Analog Church | Jay Y. Kim

#160 | Analog Christian | Jay Y. Kim

#74 | Holy Discontent, Heart Desire, and Hope in Desperate Times, Pt. 1 | James Choung

#75 | Holy Discontent, Heart Desire, and Hope in Desperate Times, Pt. 2 | James Choung

Other episodes referred to in the episode:

#117 | Defending Shame, Pt. 1 | Te-Li Lau

#118 | Defending Shame, Pt. 2 | Te-Li Lau

#145 | Faithful Disobedience, Pt. 1 | Hannah Nation

#146 | Faithful Disobedience, Pt. 2 | Hannah Nation

Conversation on racism:

#99 | A Unifying Alternative to Colorblindness & Antiracism | George Yancey

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Travis welcomes Old Testament professor Dr. Andy Abernethy to the show as they discuss his book Savoring Scripture. In addition, to being an Old Testament professor at Wheaton College, Andy is a former college basketball player and the son of a college basketball champion, and NBA player.

After a season of rebellion in his late teens, Dr. Abernethy experienced God’s mercy in Christ in a radical way and transferred to a liberal arts Christian college. A major surprise arose at his new college; though he thought the Bible was boring before, he now loved reading it, even the Old Testament. He was not naïve, however, about the challenges of understanding these ancient Scriptures. By the end of his college years, Dr. Abernethy sensed God directing him to devote his life to studying and teaching God’s word. He went on to seminary, and after a few years in pastoral ministry, undertook further study in the Old Testament.

Prior to Wheaton, Dr. Abernethy was a Lecturer in Old Testament at Ridley College (Melbourne), where he benefited greatly from teaching and living with fellow Christians in a cross-cultural and post-Christian context. At Wheaton, he is excited to see students enjoy getting to know God more through the Old Testament and grow as faithful interpreters of Scripture. Dr. Abernethy's primary research area is the book of Isaiah, though Psalms, the Latter Prophets, biblical theology, and the topic of eating attract his attention too. He has written numerous articles and is also the author of several books: Eating in Isaiah (Brill, 2014); The Book of Isaiah and God’s Kingdom (IVP, 2016); Interpreting the Old Testament Theologically: Essays in Honor of Willem A. VanGemeren (Zondervan Academic, 2018), God’s Messiah in the Old Testament (Baker, 2020); Discovering Isaiah (Eerdmans/SPCK, 2021).

Travis and Andy discuss the Bible and how to read the Bible in a way that is honoring God and keeps in mind His communication with us. It's a conversation that will refresh, encourage, and inspire you to read the Word of God all over again. And plus they have some discussions on basketball (so that's fun!). Learn more about Dr. Abernethy

In this episode, we referenced a couple of different other episodes:

#150 Kevin Vanhoozer: Scriptural Illiteracy & Secular Imagination, Pt. 1

#151 Kevin Vanhoozer: Scriptural Illiteracy & Secular Imagination, Pt. 2

#170 Allen Yeh | Polycentric Missiology

And check episodes that help us understand the Bible better:

#26 Randy Richards: Misreading Scripture With Individualist Eyes

#77 Michael S. Heiser-Naked Scripture, the Supernatural, and Scared Evangelicals

#88 Tremper Longman III, Pt. 1-The Bible You Need Is The One You Read

#89 Tremper Longman III, Pt. 2-Scripture, Psalms, and Nourishing Your Soul

#101 Esteban Shedd: Creative Communicators Engaging Global Urban Culture

#106 Donald Whitney: Praying the Bible

#111 John Plake: Scripture Engagement, Trauma, and Transformation in Chaotic Times

#187 | The Emotions of God, Pt. 1 | David T. Lamb

#188 | The Emotions of God, Pt. 2 | David T. Lamb

Feel free to email Dr. Abernethy: andrew.abernethy@wheaton.edu

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Travis and Dr. David T. Lamb continue their discussion on his new book, The Emotions of God (IVP, 2022). Dr. Lamb is the MacRae Professor of Old Testament Dean of the Faculty at Misso Seminary in Philadelphia, PA. Dr. Lamb has extensive teaching experience, including cross-cultural projects in Nigeria, Mexico, Kazakhstan, and Russia. He is the author of The Historical Writings: Introducing Israel’s Historical Literature (Fortress, 2016), Prostitutes and Polygamists: A Look at Love, Old Testament Style (Zondervan, 2015), God Behaving Badly: Is the God of the Old Testament Angry, Sexist and Racist? (InterVarsity Press, 2011), Righteous Jehu and His Evil Heirs (Oxford University Press, 2007), The Story of God Commentary 1, 2 Kings (Zondervan). Dr. Lamb worked with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship from 1986-1999, serving as campus staff, team leader, and area director.

If we are to unlock our mission, we need to know who the God we serve is and we need to know who we are. We are not machines, and God has called us in our full humanity to follow Him with the entirety of who we are. Our emotions are a gift and come from Him. Without understanding properly who He is, we can't understand who we are, and if we can't understand who we are, we can't understand what He has called us to be and do. It's a conversation that delves deep into the heart of God and helps us to fulfill the mission He has for us.

Check out the first part of our conversation: #187 David T. Lamb | The Emotions of God, Pt. 1

And check episodes that help us understand the Bible better:

#26 Randy Richards: Misreading Scripture With Individualist Eyes

#77 Michael S. Heiser-Naked Scripture, the Supernatural, and Scared Evangelicals

#88 Tremper Longman III, Pt. 1-The Bible You Need Is The One You Read

#89 Tremper Longman III, Pt. 2-Scripture, Psalms, and Nourishing Your Soul

#101 Esteban Shedd: Creative Communicators Engaging Global Urban Culture

#106 Donald Whitney: Praying the Bible

#111 John Plake: Scripture Engagement, Trauma, and Transformation in Chaotic Times

#150 Kevin Vanhoozer: Scriptural Illiteracy & Secular Imagination, Pt. 1

#151 Kevin Vanhoozer: Scriptural Illiteracy & Secular Imagination, Pt. 2

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God continues to grow our ministry, but He calls people like you to help do it! Support the Ministry of Apollos Watered today!

Today, welcome Dr. David T. Lamb to the show to discuss his new book, The Emotions of God (IVP, 2022). Dr. Lamb is the MacRae Professor of Old Testament Dean of the Faculty at Misso Seminary in Philadelphia, PA. Dr. Lamb has extensive teaching experience, including cross-cultural projects in Nigeria, Mexico, Kazakhstan, and Russia. He is the author of The Historical Writings: Introducing Israel’s Historical Literature (Fortress, 2016), Prostitutes and Polygamists: A Look at Love, Old Testament Style (Zondervan, 2015), God Behaving Badly: Is the God of the Old Testament Angry, Sexist and Racist? (InterVarsity Press, 2011), Righteous Jehu and His Evil Heirs (Oxford University Press, 2007), The Story of God Commentary 1, 2 Kings (Zondervan). Dr. Lamb worked with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship from 1986-1999, serving as campus staff, team leader, and area director.

If we are to unlock our mission, we need to know who the God we serve is and we need to know who we are. We are not machines, and God has called us in our full humanity to follow Him with the entirety of who we are. Our emotions are a gift and come from Him. Without understanding properly who He is, we can't understand who we are, and if we can't understand who we are, we can't understand what He has called us to be and do. It's a conversation that delves deep into the heart of God and helps us to fulfill the mission He has for us.

And check episodes that help us understand the Bible better:

#26 Randy Richards: Misreading Scripture With Individualist Eyes

#77 Michael S. Heiser-Naked Scripture, the Supernatural, and Scared Evangelicals

#88 Tremper Longman III, Pt. 1-The Bible You Need Is The One You Read

#89 Tremper Longman III, Pt. 2-Scripture, Psalms, and Nourishing Your Soul

#101 Esteban Shedd: Creative Communicators Engaging Global Urban Culture

#106 Donald Whitney: Praying the Bible

#111 John Plake: Scripture Engagement, Trauma, and Transformation in Chaotic Times

#150 Kevin Vanhoozer: Scriptural Illiteracy & Secular Imagination, Pt. 1

#151 Kevin Vanhoozer: Scriptural Illiteracy & Secular Imagination, Pt. 2

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God continues to grow our ministry, but He calls people like you to help do it! Support the Ministry of Apollos Watered today!

Nancy Pearcey is the author of the upcoming book The Toxic War on Masculinity: How Christianity Reconciles the Sexes. Her most recently published book is Love Thy Body: Answering Hard Questions about Life and Sexuality. Her earlier books include The Soul of Science, Saving Leonardo, Finding Truth, and two ECPA Gold Medallion Award Winners: How Now Shall We Live (coauthored with Harold Fickett and Chuck Colson) and Total Truth. Her books have been translated into 19 languages. She is professor and scholar in residence at Houston Christian University. A former agnostic, Pearcey has spoken at universities such as Princeton, Stanford, USC, and Dartmouth. She has been quoted in The New Yorker and Newsweek, highlighted as one of the five top women apologists by Christianity Today, and hailed in The Economist as "America's pre-eminent evangelical Protestant female intellectual."

For anyone who wants data to show them the benefit of Christianity, then listen in as Travis and Nancy discuss this immensely important topic. They talk about many things in the show-L.L. Bean, Nancy's love for the violin, Francis Schaeffer, and so much more. This episode will surely help equip you when you are challenged by the notion that Christian masculinity is toxic.

There are many episodes referred to in and after this episode. Here they are for your listening pleasure:

#185 Nancy Pearcey | The Toxic War on Masculinity, Pt. 1

#78 Nancy Pearcey, Pt. 1-Sex, Self, Splits in Reality, and the Search for Meaning

#79 Nancy Pearcey, Pt. 2-Loving the Body, Learning the Language, & Life Change

#166 | Christopher Watkin: Biblical Critical Theory, Pt. 1

#167 | Christopher Watkin: Biblical Critical Theory, Pt. 2

#171 | Malcolm Guite: Transfigure Your Imagination, Pt. 1

#172 | Malcolm Guite: Transfigure Your Imagination, Pt. 2

#177 | Daniel Strange | Magnetic Points, Pt. 1

#178 | Daniel Strange | Magnetic Points, Pt. 2

#181 | Karen Swallow Prior | The Evangelical Imagination, Pt. 1

#182 | Karen Swallow Prior | The Evangelical Imagination, Pt. 2

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God continues to grow our ministry, but He calls people like you to help do it! Support the ministry of Apollos Watered today!

For many, subjects such as masculinity and femininity have become battlegrounds in our culture wars with Christianity in the crosshairs, but is the Christian view of masculinity actually toxic? Nancy Pearcey is back and her newest book challenges many of the secular notions of toxic masculinity.

Nancy Pearcey is the author of the upcoming book The Toxic War on Masculinity: How Christianity Reconciles the Sexes. Her most recently published book is Love Thy Body: Answering Hard Questions about Life and Sexuality. Her earlier books include The Soul of Science, Saving Leonardo, Finding Truth, and two ECPA Gold Medallion Award Winners: How Now Shall We Live (coauthored with Harold Fickett and Chuck Colson) and Total Truth. Her books have been translated into 19 languages. She is professor and scholar in residence at Houston Christian University. A former agnostic, Pearcey has spoken at universities such as Princeton, Stanford, USC, and Dartmouth. She has been quoted in The New Yorker and Newsweek, highlighted as one of the five top women apologists by Christianity Today, and hailed in The Economist as "America's pre-eminent evangelical Protestant female intellectual."

For anyone who wants data to show them the benefit of Christianity, then listen in as Travis and Nancy discuss this immensely important topic. They talk about many things in the show-L.L. Bean, Nancy's love for the violin, Francis Schaeffer, and so much more. This episode will surely help equip you when you are challenged by the notion that Christian masculinity is toxic.

There are many episodes referred to in and after this episode. Here they are for your listening pleasure:

#78 Nancy Pearcey, Pt. 1-Sex, Self, Splits in Reality, and the Search for Meaning

#79 Nancy Pearcey, Pt. 2-Loving the Body, Learning the Language, & Life Change

#166 | Christopher Watkin: Biblical Critical Theory, Pt. 1

#167 | Christopher Watkin: Biblical Critical Theory, Pt. 2

#171 | Malcolm Guite: Transfigure Your Imagination, Pt. 1

#172 | Malcolm Guite: Transfigure Your Imagination, Pt. 2

#177 | Daniel Strange | Magnetic Points, Pt. 1

#178 | Daniel Strange | Magnetic Points, Pt. 2

#181 | Karen Swallow Prior | The Evangelical Imagination, Pt. 1

#182 | Karen Swallow Prior | The Evangelical Imagination, Pt. 2

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God continues to grow our ministry, but He calls people like you to help do it! Support the ministry of Apollos Watered today!

Jeff is an author, leader, speaker, missiologist, and movement catalyst. He has served as the Executive Director of the Canadian National Baptist Convention, Executive Director at Church Planting Canada, and Co-Founder and Chief Missiologist at Church Multiplication Institute.

Learn more about 100Movements.

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Jeff Christopherson addresses this and so much more in his newest book, Once You See: Seven Temptations of the Western Church: A Novel (100 Movements, 2022). Jeff is an author, leader, speaker, missiologist, and movement catalyst. He has served as the Executive Director of the Canadian National Baptist Convention, Executive Director at Church Planting Canada, and Co-Founder and Chief Missiologist at Church Multiplication Institute.

Travis and Jeff discuss the current state of evangelicalism and how evangelicalism has become stuck in a certain form of ministry built on principles of attraction within a high Christendom culture, but as they show, the culture has shifted and God is doing a new work. What is it? What is it going to look like? Listen in to find out!

Learn more about 100Movements.

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Travis and Karen talk about all things evangelicalism and culture and how they overlap. They also discuss her departure from the Southern Baptist Convention, and her desire for the church in North America going forward.

Karen Swallow Prior, Ph. D., is a reader, writer, and professor. In addition to her newest book, she is the author of On Reading Well: Finding the Good Life through Great Books (Brazos 2018); Jane Eyre: A Guide to Reading and Reflecting (B&H 2021), The Scarlet Letter: A Guide to Reading and Reflecting (Read and Reflect with the Classics) (B&H 2022), Frankenstein: A Guide to Reading and Reflecting (B&H 2021), Sense and Sensibility: A Guide to Reading and Reflecting (B&H 2020), Tess of the d'Urbervilles: A Guide to Reading and Reflecting (B&H 2022), Fierce Convictions: The Extraordinary Life of Hannah More—Poet, Reformer, Abolitionist (Thomas Nelson, 2014); and Booked: Literature in the Soul of Me (T. S. Poetry Press, 2012).

She is co-editor of Cultural Engagement: A Crash Course in Contemporary Issues (Zondervan 2019) and has contributed to numerous other books. She has a monthly column for Religion News Service. Her writing has appeared at Christianity Today, New York Times, The Atlantic, The Washington Post, First Things, Vox, Think Christian, The Gospel Coalition, and various other places. She hosted the podcast Jane and Jesus. 

Karen gives frequent lectures and talks on her work. Among the places she has spoken are Wheaton College, University of Minnesota, Indiana Wesleyan University, Northwestern University, Grace College, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, The Gospel Coalition Conference, Redeemer University College, Toronto Baptist Seminary, United Theological Seminary, Festival of Faith and Writing, Baptist General Convention of Oklahoma’s Women’s Conference, Roanoke Regional Writers Conference, The Row House Forum, Q Boston, the Glen Workshop, and the Humane Society of the United States.

She completed her Ph.D. at the State University of New York at Buffalo and her undergraduate studies at Daemen College in Amherst, New York. Her academic focus is British literature, with a specialty in the eighteenth century, a period she loves for its emphasis on philosophy, ethics, aesthetics, and community, as well as its efforts at correcting the universal human impulse to gravitate toward extremes. Her scholarly work has appeared in 1650-1850: Ideas, Aesthetics, and Inquiries in the Early Modern Era; The Shandean; The Scriblerian and various literary encyclopedias.

She is a contributing editor for Comment (an online magazine we love), a founding member of The Pelican Project, a Senior Fellow at the Trinity Forum, a Senior Fellow at the International Alliance for Christian Education, a former Senior Fellow at the L. Russ Bush Center for Faith and Culture and is a former member of the Faith Advisory Council of the Humane Society of the United States. She and her husband live on a 100-year old homestead in central Virginia with dogs, chickens, and lots of books.

Check out our other conversations on the imagination and how evangelicalism has developed and how it has shaped our imagination and how we live.

#181: Karen Swallow Prior | The Evangelical Imagination, Pt. 1

#114 J.D. Payne: Rediscovering The Apostolic Imagination

#154 David Bebbington The Dominance of Evangelicalism, Pt. 1

#155 David Bebbington The Dominance of Evangelicalism, Pt. 2

#158 Mark Noll | What's An Evangelical? | It's Complicated, Pt. 1

#159 Mark Noll | What's An Evangelical? | It's Complicated, Pt. 2

#171 | Malcolm Guite: Transfigure Your Imagination, Pt. 1

#172 | Malcolm Guite: Transfigure Your Imagination, Pt. 2

Check out the NLT.

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Travis and Karen discuss her forthcoming book, The Evangelical Imagination: How Stories, Images, and Metaphors Created a Culture in Crisis (Brazos 2023). They discuss how we developed this idea of what the good life is and what it is supposed to be and how some have ordered their lives to get it. They also discuss Flannery O'Connor, eighteenth and nineteenth-century literature, modern evangelicalism, her departure from the Southern Baptist Convention, and her desire for the church in North America going forward.

Karen Swallow Prior, Ph. D., is a reader, writer, and professor. In addition to her newest book, she is the author of On Reading Well: Finding the Good Life through Great Books (Brazos 2018); Jane Eyre: A Guide to Reading and Reflecting (B&H 2021), The Scarlet Letter: A Guide to Reading and Reflecting (Read and Reflect with the Classics) (B&H 2022), Frankenstein: A Guide to Reading and Reflecting (B&H 2021), Sense and Sensibility: A Guide to Reading and Reflecting (B&H 2020), Tess of the d'Urbervilles: A Guide to Reading and Reflecting (B&H 2022), Fierce Convictions: The Extraordinary Life of Hannah More—Poet, Reformer, Abolitionist (Thomas Nelson, 2014); and Booked: Literature in the Soul of Me (T. S. Poetry Press, 2012).

She is co-editor of Cultural Engagement: A Crash Course in Contemporary Issues (Zondervan 2019) and has contributed to numerous other books. She has a monthly column for Religion News Service. Her writing has appeared at Christianity Today, New York Times, The Atlantic, The Washington Post, First Things, Vox, Think Christian, The Gospel Coalition, and various other places. She hosted the podcast Jane and Jesus. 

Karen gives frequent lectures and talks on her work. Among the places she has spoken are Wheaton College, University of Minnesota, Indiana Wesleyan University, Northwestern University, Grace College, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, The Gospel Coalition Conference, Redeemer University College, Toronto Baptist Seminary, United Theological Seminary, Festival of Faith and Writing, Baptist General Convention of Oklahoma’s Women’s Conference, Roanoke Regional Writers Conference, The Row House Forum, Q Boston, the Glen Workshop, and the Humane Society of the United States.

She completed her Ph.D. at the State University of New York at Buffalo and her undergraduate studies at Daemen College in Amherst, New York. Her academic focus is British literature, with a specialty in the eighteenth century, a period she loves for its emphasis on philosophy, ethics, aesthetics, and community, as well as its efforts at correcting the universal human impulse to gravitate toward extremes. Her scholarly work has appeared in 1650-1850: Ideas, Aesthetics, and Inquiries in the Early Modern Era; The Shandean; The Scriblerian and various literary encyclopedias.

She is a contributing editor for Comment (an online magazine we love), a founding member of The Pelican Project, a Senior Fellow at the Trinity Forum, a Senior Fellow at the International Alliance for Christian Education, a former Senior Fellow at the L. Russ Bush Center for Faith and Culture and is a former member of the Faith Advisory Council of the Humane Society of the United States. She and her husband live on a 100-year old homestead in central Virginia with dogs, chickens, and lots of books.

Check out our other conversations on the imagination and how evangelicalism has developed and how it has shaped our imagination and how we live.

#114 J.D. Payne: Rediscovering The Apostolic Imagination

#154 David Bebbington The Dominance of Evangelicalism, Pt. 1

#155 David Bebbington The Dominance of Evangelicalism, Pt. 2

#158 Mark Noll | What's An Evangelical? | It's Complicated, Pt. 1

#159 Mark Noll | What's An Evangelical? | It's Complicated, Pt. 2

#171 | Malcolm Guite: Transfigure Your Imagination, Pt. 1

#172 | Malcolm Guite: Transfigure Your Imagination, Pt. 2

Check out the NLT.

Sign up for the Apollos Watered newsletter.

Help water-thirsty souls by partnering with Apollos Watered!

Chris Coursey is an ordained minister, pastoral counselor, published author, and international speaker. He is also the curriculum designer and leader of THRIVE training which uses creative, interactive exercises to train leaders in the 19 relational skills that result in positive character change. Chris has authored/co-authored several books including The 4 Habits of Joy-Filled Marriages, Relational Skills in the Bible, The 4 Habits of Joy-Filled People, Transforming Fellowship, The 4 Habits of Raising Joy-Filled Kids, 30 Days of Joy for Busy Married Couples, and The Joy Switch, the book in our discussion today.

Learn more about THRIVEtoday.

If you are interested in neurotheology be sure to check out these episodes, as we delve into the topic of neurotheology and how it works in leadership, how we engage our enemies, those we love, and how it affects our walk with Jesus.

Check out Part 1: #179 Chris Coursey, Pt 1.-The Joy Switch

#107 Jim Wilder, Pt. 1-God on the Brain (intro to neurotheology)

#108 Jim Wilder, Pt. 2-God on the Brain (intro to neurotheology)

#109 Michel Hendricks, Pt. 1-Relational Reformation

#110 Michel Hendricks, Pt. 2-Relational Reformation

#120 Marcus Warner, Our Walk, Wounds, & Warfare, Pt. 1

#121 Marcus Warner, Our Walk, Wounds, & Warfare, Pt. 2

#140 Jim Wilder, Pt. 1-Enemy Mode

#141 Jim Wilder, Pt. 2-Enemy Mode

#142 Marcus Warner, RARE Leadership, Pt. 1

#143 Marcus Warner, RARE Leadership, Pt. 2

Check out the NLT.

Sign up for the Apollos Watered newsletter.

Help water-thirsty souls by partnering with Apollos Watered!

Chris Coursey is an ordained minister, pastoral counselor, published author, and international speaker. He is also the curriculum designer and leader of THRIVE training which uses creative, interactive exercises to train leaders in the 19 relational skills that result in positive character change. Chris has authored/co-authored several books including The 4 Habits of Joy-Filled Marriages, Relational Skills in the Bible, The 4 Habits of Joy-Filled People, Transforming Fellowship, The 4 Habits of Raising Joy-Filled Kids, 30 Days of Joy for Busy Married Couples, and The Joy Switch, the book in our discussion today.

Learn more about THRIVEtoday.

If you are interested in neurotheology be sure to check out these episodes, as we delve into the topic of neurotheology and how it works in leadership, how we engage our enemies, those we love, and how it affects our walk with Jesus.

#107 Jim Wilder, Pt. 1-God on the Brain (intro to neurotheology)

#108 Jim Wilder, Pt. 2-God on the Brain (intro to neurotheology)

#109 Michel Hendricks, Pt. 1-Relational Reformation

#110 Michel Hendricks, Pt. 2-Relational Reformation

#120 Marcus Warner, Our Walk, Wounds, & Warfare, Pt. 1

#121 Marcus Warner, Our Walk, Wounds, & Warfare, Pt. 2

#140 Jim Wilder, Pt. 1-Enemy Mode

#141 Jim Wilder, Pt. 2-Enemy Mode

#142 Marcus Warner, RARE Leadership, Pt. 1

#143 Marcus Warner, RARE Leadership, Pt. 2

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Daniel Strange is director of Crosslands Forum and the vice president of The Southgate Fellowship. He is one of the inaugural fellows of The Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics and is the author of Their Rock Is Not Like Our Rock: A Theology of Religions (Zondervan, 2015), Plugged In (The Good Book Company, 2019), and Making Faith Magnetic (The Good Book Company, 2021) (the book we are talking about today!) He is a contributing editor for Themelios and an elder of Hope Community Church, Gateshead, U.K., which is part of the Fellowship of Evangelical Churches (FIEC).

It's a fantastic, fun, and faith-filled conversation that can help you build a bridge with unbelievers so that they too can know Jesus. This is a must-listen!

Check out #177 Daniel Strange, Pt. 1

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Daniel Strange is director of Crosslands Forum and the vice president of The Southgate Fellowship. He is one of the inaugural fellows of The Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics and is the author of Their Rock Is Not Like Our Rock: A Theology of Religions (Zondervan, 2015), Plugged In (The Good Book Company, 2019), and Making Faith Magnetic (The Good Book Company, 2021) (the book we are talking about today!) He is a contributing editor for Themelios and an elder of Hope Community Church, Gateshead, U.K., which is part of the Fellowship of Evangelical Churches (FIEC).

It's a fantastic, fun, and faith-filled conversation that can help you build a bridge with unbelievers so that they too can know Jesus. This is a must-listen!

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Glen Scrivener is an ordained Church of England minister and evangelist who preaches Christ through writing, speaking, and online media. He directs the evangelistic ministry Speak Life. Originally from Australia, Glen now lives with his wife, Emma, and two children in England, and they belong to All Souls Eastbourne. He is the author of several books, including The Air We Breathe: How We All Came to Believe in Freedom, Kindness, Progress, and Equality (The Good Book Company, 2022) and 3-2-1: The Story of God, the World, and You (10Publishing, 2014).

This episode is going to be an encouragement and help equip you to share Jesus with your unbelieving friends. Glen is a clear, and energetic communicator who loves Jesus and longs to share Him with others.

Check out some of Glen's articles.

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Today, we welcome Dr. Gene Green to the show. Gene is an emeritus professor of New Testament at Wheaton College, who has written extensively on various issues of theology and missiology. He is the author of several books:

• The Scalpel and the Cross: A Theology of Surgery (Ordinary Theology)
• Jesus without Borders: Christology in the Majority World (Majority World Theology (MWT))
• The Spirit over the Earth: Pneumatology in the Majority World (Majority World Theology (MWT))
• The Trinity among the Nations: The Doctrine of God in the Majority World (Majority World Theology (MWT))
• The New Testament in Antiquity: A Survey of the New Testament within Its Cultural Context
• Jude and 2 Peter (Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament)
• Global Theology in Evangelical Perspective: Exploring the Contextual Nature of Theology and Mission

Travis and Gene talk about the necessity of looking to Christians around the world and why we need to learn from them. It is by dialoguing with them, that our vision of God grows, and we are able to see our own culture through new eyes, and perhaps find a way forward, following many of our brothers and sisters who have had to follow Jesus in the face of great hostility. It's an insightful conversation sure to help you grow in. your knowledge of God, and your awareness of Christian believers from around the world (and perhaps around the corner), who can help us follow Jesus more faithfully today.

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Dr. Michael J. Kruger serves as the President and Samuel C. Patterson Professor of New Testament and Early Christianity at the Charlotte campus of Reformed Theological Seminary.

Get his book: Bully Pulpit: Confronting the Problem of Spiritual Abuse in the Church (Zondervan, 2022), which won the 2022 “Book of the Year” award from The Gospel Coalition for the ministry category.

Or check out some of his other books:

Surviving Religion 101: Letters to a Christian Student on Keeping the Faith in College (Crossway, 2021), was awarded 2021 “Book of the Year” by the Southwestern Baptist Journal of Theology for the category of Worldview/Apologetics, and Christianity at the Crossroads: How the Second Century Shaped the Future of the Church (SPCK, 2017; IVP Academic, 2018) was awarded 2018 “Book of the Year” by The Gospel Coalition in the category of history and biography.

Other publications include The Gospel of the Savior (Brill, 2005), The Heresy of Orthodoxy (Crossway, 2010, with Andreas Köstenberger), Canon Revisited (Crossway, 2012), and The Question of Canon (IVP Academic, 2013). He is also the editor of and contributor to A Biblical-Theological Introduction to the New Testament (Crossway, 2016) and co-editor of The Early Text of the New Testament (Oxford, 2012) and Gospel Fragments (Oxford, 2009).

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Bishop Claude Richard Alexander, Jr. has pastored The Park Church in Charlotte, North Carolina, since 1990. Originally a congregation of 600 members, The Park is now home to more than 9,000 members.

Bishop Alexander earned a bachelor’s degree from Morehouse College, a Master of Divinity from Pittsburgh Theological Seminary and a Doctorate of Ministry from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. He began pastoring his first church in 1987 and was ordained a bishop in 2008. Bishop Alexander has gained increasing presence in the media, reaching a potential audience of more than 2 million viewers each week through his live-streamed sermons.

Bishop Alexander is ranked among the 75 most influential persons in Charlotte by Charlotte Magazine. He is co-chair of the Community Building Initiative, a nonprofit organization that works to achieve racial and ethnic inclusion and equity in the Charlotte Mecklenburg community. He has served on the boards of several organizations over the years, and currently serves as a member of the Board of Trustees of Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary, the Executive Board of the Joint College of Bishops and the Board of Directors of Christianity Today. He was also recently elected president of Hampton University Ministers’ Conference.

Bishop Alexander and his wife, Kimberly, have been married since 1993. They have two school-aged daughters — Camryn and Carsyn.

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Takeaways:

• The church is a dynamic community that encompasses both immense joy and profound pain, reflecting the complexities of human experience.
• True understanding of God is often revealed through communal experiences rather than in isolation, emphasizing the importance of fellowship.
• In the journey of faith, we must acknowledge our imperfections and strive towards being the church that God calls us to become.
• Revival is not merely about achieving perfection but about recognizing and embracing Jesus' work in our messy realities as we grow together.
• Discipleship begins with baptism, which symbolizes our commitment to God and marks the transition from self-led lives to lives led by Him.
• The essence of the church lies in our collective commitments to each other and to God, which serve as a testament to the world about His faithfulness.

In this second conversation, Travis talks with Malcolm Guite about the imagination and how God desires to use it. Malcolm is an English poet, songwriter, Anglican priest, and recently retired professor from Cambridge. He is truly one of a kind-cross John Donne, Jerry Garcia, and put him on the back of a Harley while dressed like Bilbo Baggins and you have your man. In fact, his poem Refugee was requested by King Charles to be read at the Christmas Royal Carol Service.

Malcolm joins Apollos Watered to talk about how Jesus baptizes our imagination the moment we come to Him, helping us to cultivate an artistic, moral, and prophetic imagination in a world that desperately needs leaders to move beyond the status quo. It's insightful, informative, and fun :-)

Check out the first part of our conversation: #171 | Malcolm Guite: Transfigure Your Imagination, Pt. 1

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Malcolm has an idea! Malcolm is an English poet, songwriter, Anglican priest, and recently retired professor from Cambridge. He is truly one of a kind-cross John Donne, Jerry Garcia, and put him on the back of a Harley while dressed like Bilbo Baggins and you have your man. In fact, his poem Refugee was requested by King Charles to be read at the Christmas Royal Carol Service.

Malcolm joins Apollos Watered to talk about how Jesus baptizes our imagination the moment we come to Him, helping us to cultivate an artistic, moral, and prophetic imagination in a world that desperately needs leaders to move beyond the status quo. It's insightful, informative, and fun :-)

Get his books.

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Takeaways:

• The conversation delves into the profound significance of imagination in the Christian faith, emphasizing its role in enriching our understanding of God's creation and our relationship with Him.
• Travis Michael Fleming and Malcolm Guite explore how imagination transcends mere fantasy, allowing us to engage with deeper truths found in literature, art, and personal experiences of faith.
• Malcolm Guite shares his transformative encounter with the holy presence of God, illustrating how such moments can radically alter one's perception of existence and dependence on the divine.
• The discussion highlights the necessity of cultivating our imaginative faculties, which serve as a means to connect with the sacred and navigate the complexities of modern life.
• Guite articulates the notion that imagination is not a frivolous endeavor but rather a crucial aspect of spiritual life that can lead to a renewed understanding of faith and existence.
• Through the lens of poetry and literary exploration, the speakers argue that imagination can illuminate profound truths, inviting individuals to perceive the world in a more meaningful and interconnected way.

What is the center of Christianity? Is there one? Which continent got the gospel first? How did the Gospel spread around the world? What does it mean to be "ecumenical"? Who is considered the father of modern missions? What does it mean to be on mission? What does it mean to work together for the gospel? What is the difference between evangelism and discipleship? How do we go about "doing" theology? What does it mean to "do" theology? And how is mission the mother of theology? These are just SOME of the questions that we try to answer on today's show as Travis welcomes Allen Yeh!

Allen is a missiologist who specializes in Latin America and China. He is a professor of intercultural studies at the Cook School for Intercultural Studies. He has diverse interests in history, classical music, homiletics, justice, the California missions, the Maya, and biographical interest in Jonathan Edwards (America's greatest theologian) and Adoniram Judson (America's first intercontinental missionary). He serves on the Board of Trustees for the Foundation for Theological Education in Southeast Asia. He earned his B.A. from Yale, M.Div. from Gordon-Conwell, M.Th. from Edinburgh, and D.Phil. from Oxford.

Allen has been to over 60 countries on every continent, to study, do missions work, and experience the culture. He is joyfully married to Arianna Molloy, a professor in Biola's Communication Studies Department.

This is a fun and challenging conversation that is going to enlighten and challenge you in what you know about how mission has been done historically, how we do mission where we are today, and we go about doing theology in our crazy changing world.

Takeaways:

• Christianity has been present in regions like India, Turkey, and Ethiopia since the first century, predating its arrival in Europe.
• The concept of polycentric missiology emphasizes that missions are now from everyone to everywhere, not just the West to the rest.
• William Carey's contributions to modern missions include establishing mission societies and emphasizing the Great Commission's importance for all believers.
• Nominalism, the idea of being a Christian in name only, poses a significant challenge to authentic discipleship today.
• Diversity within the body of Christ enhances our understanding of God, as different cultures provide unique perspectives.
• The shift in missionary efforts from the West to the Majority World reflects a significant change in global Christianity's landscape.

Learn more about Allen.

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Joby is a man who has a passion for God and His Word. Born and bred in the South, he is a lover of Georgia Bulldogs football, bowhunting, C.S. Lewis, and one of the funniest guests we have ever had. He is the founder and lead pastor of The Church of Eleven22 in Jacksonville, Florida. Since launching the church in 2012, he has led a movement for all people to discover and deepen a relationship with Jesus Christ.

In addition to providing The Church of Eleven22 with vision and leadership, Pastor Joby is a national and international preacher and teacher.

He has been married to his wife, Gretchen, for over 20 years and they have a son, JP and a daughter, Reagan Capri.

Learn more about Joby.

Check out Church of Eleven22.

Get Joby's book, Anything Is Possible.

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Out of all of our episodes, this is probably the most controversial and our longest episode to date. Rather than divide it into two we wanted to you to get the full idea of Vishal's proposal. Vishal maintains that Christians in North America have got the Great Commission wrong, and have actually harmed the faith as a result of it. His desire is to recover the full expression of the Great Commission and return to educating and catechizing the church, all the while removing ourselves from secular education. He makes some bold critiques and proposals that will frustrate, enrage, and make you think.

Is he right? Is he wrong? Listen in and find out!

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Learn more about Chris.

Get the book.

Chris referred to a couple of other resources:

Get Graeme Goldsworthy's book.

Check out Nancy Guthrie's resources.

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Takeaways:

• The podcast emphasizes the importance of understanding the cultural dichotomies that shape our worldview as Christians.
• Christopher Watkin's book, Biblical Critical Theory, critiques contemporary culture through a biblical lens, offering a deeper understanding of modern life.
• The conversation navigates the complexities of how Christians can engage with a culture that often views them as adversaries.
• Watkin argues that the Bible provides a more comprehensive narrative than any alternative cultural stories we may encounter.
• The hosts discuss the significance of sin and judgment in understanding both biblical teachings and contemporary societal issues.
• They highlight the necessity for Christians to adopt a biblical framework when addressing modern cultural challenges.

Rarely has anyone been able to show how the Bible answers such philosophical questions in a way that engaged believers can understand, but Chris Watkin has done just that with his book, Biblical Critical Theory.

Travis and Chris discuss Chris' background, his faith, and Biblical Critical Theory. In this first part of their conversation, Chris lays the groundwork for the book, answers some contemporary objections, and helps us to see how great the Bible is in helping "out-narrate," our late modern world.

This is a DEEP conversation and not for the faint of heart, but it is a conversation that will take you deeper into the heart of God, it will help you understand how people have come to view the modern world in which we live as well as shows us how the Bible is still the best story that explains every other story for our lives and how the world is. It's an incredible conversation!

Learn more about Chris.

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Takeaways:

• Travis Michael Fleming and Chris Watkin explore the profound implications of Biblical Critical Theory and its relevance in contemporary society.
• The central thesis of Watkin's book posits that the Bible offers a coherent narrative that critiques modern philosophical movements.
• Watkin emphasizes the importance of understanding the Bible as a critical theory, which reveals deeper truths about human nature and society.
• The discussion highlights how the biblical narrative can out-narrate modern cultural narratives, providing a more comprehensive understanding of reality.
• Watkin articulates that the Bible's framework critiques contemporary societal norms, making invisible truths visible and valuable.
• The podcast underscores the necessity of integrating biblical insights into discussions of critical theory for a more robust cultural critique.

Check out Trevin's blog at the Gospel Coalition or sign up to be on his email list.

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Travis Michael Fleming and Trevin Wax engage in a profound dialogue regarding the contemporary challenges faced by the Christian community, particularly concerning the pervasive issue of spiritual nourishment. Fleming initiates the conversation with a striking metaphor, likening prevalent Christian teachings to unhealthy junk food, suggesting that many believers are consuming spiritually detrimental content that lacks depth and substance. He emphasizes the urgent need for a spiritual dietary overhaul, proposing that Christians should seek a more wholesome and enriching theological diet, one that fosters genuine growth in faith rather than superficial satisfaction. Throughout their discourse, Fleming and Wax delve into the nuances of orthodoxy, exploring the delicate balance between essential doctrines and secondary issues. They articulate the dangers of drifting from orthodox beliefs, particularly in an increasingly pluralistic society where the lines of truth are often blurred by cultural pressures and individual interpretations.

As they navigate these complex themes, the duo reflects on the implications of cultural diversity within Christianity, examining how different ethnic backgrounds and political contexts influence theological perspectives. Wax elucidates the necessity of maintaining a clear distinction between orthodox beliefs and personal convictions, cautioning against conflating secondary issues with core tenets of faith. The dialogue encourages listeners to critically assess their spiritual diets, urging them to cultivate a robust understanding of orthodoxy while remaining vigilant against the allure of doctrinal drift. Ultimately, Fleming and Wax's conversation serves as a clarion call for Christians to pursue a deeper, more authentic engagement with the gospel, one that transcends mere intellectual assent and fosters a vibrant, life-giving faith that can effectively navigate the complexities of modern life.

Takeaways:

• In contemporary Christianity, much of what is taught resembles unhealthy spiritual junk food, requiring discernment for a better diet.
• The conversation emphasizes the importance of recognizing and addressing heresy within the church, which is often overlooked in modern discourse.
• A robust understanding of orthodoxy is essential for maintaining the structural integrity of various Christian traditions amidst cultural shifts.
• The dialogue explores the dangers of prioritizing pragmatic approaches over doctrinal truths, leading to potential spiritual malnutrition in believers.
• It is crucial to differentiate between errors in theology and heresy, as many errors do not equate to denying fundamental truths of the faith.
• Engaging with diverse cultural expressions of faith while upholding essential doctrines serves to enrich the Christian community and its witness.

Travis welcomes Trevin Wax back to the show as they delve into the subject of orthodoxy. Trevin shows us that rather than being a dry academic exercise, orthodoxy provides the lifeblood of truth and unity in the church that is essential for the church to carry forth its mission. However, there are always threats to orthodoxy and those threats demean not only theological truth but the very nature of who God is, His purposes, and our place within the world today.

Check out Trevin's blog at the Gospel Coalition or sign up to be on his email list.

Follow Trevin on Twitter or get his books.

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"After this I saw a vast crowd, too great to count, from every nation and tribe and people and language, standing in front of the throne and before the Lamb. They were clothed in white robes and held palm branches in their hands. And they were shouting with a great roar, 'Salvation comes from our God who sits on the throne and from the Lamb!'”

God has brought the nations to our shore in the West. And we need to ask ourselves, why? What is God doing and how can we join Him in that? Listen in and find out!

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Read about Eric.

Read more about Matt and get his book, Welcoming the Stranger.

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Jay serves as lead pastor of teaching at WestGate Church in the Silicon Valley of CA and teacher-in-residence at Vintage Faith Church in Santa Cruz, CA. Some of his written work has been featured in Christianity Today, The Gospel Coalition, Relevant, Missio Alliance, Outreach, Pastor Resources, and other places.

We previously spoke with Jay about his book Analog Church (InterVarsity Press, 2020). It's about the many challenges and opportunities churches face in the digital age, offering a new and hopeful way forward. 

You can learn more about Jay here.

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What happens when what we claim we believe doesn’t match up with the way we live? When we claim to believe in a new birth through Christ but still cling to beliefs, ways of looking at the world and even actions that are a lot worse than problematic? 

What caused evangelicalism to become so politicized in the US? should we even call ourselves evangelicals anymore?

If you thought part one of my conversation with Mark Noll was complicated, well, I hate to say it, but it’s going to get more complicated. We discuss evangelicalism, indigenous peoples, global evangelicalism, and a whole lot more!

Mark is one of the leading church historians in the English-speaking world. Recently retired as the Francis A. McAnaney Professor of History at the University of Notre Dame and before that he served as Professor of History and Theological Studies at Wheaton College. His taught courses on American religious and intellectual history, the Reformation, world Christianity, and Canadian history.

Dr. Noll has written and edited numerous books, most recently including Evangelicals: Who they Have Been, Are Now, and Could Be (with George Marsden and David Bebbington, Eerdmans, 2019), In the Beginning Was the Word: The Bible in American Public Life (OUP, 2015), From Every Tribe and Nation: A Historian’s Discovery of the Global Christian Story (Baker Academic, 2014), Jesus Christ and the Life of the Mind (Eerdmans, 2011), and Clouds of Witnesses: Christian Voices from Africa and Asia (co-written with Carolyn Nystrom, IVP, 2011). He has also served on the editorial boards for Books & Culture and Christian History, and as co-editor of Library of Religious Biography for Wm. B. Eerdmans. In 2006 he received the National Endowment for the Humanities medal at the White House. Dr. Noll currently lives in Wheaton, Illinois, with his wife, Maggie.

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