Our guest today is here to share what he calls a system for success. He breaks down the vital difference between an initial windshield report and a true size-up. And he warns that a worthwhile size-up absolutely does not take place from the cab of the apparatus.

Todd Edwards explains why identifying the occupancy is the most critical step. Hearing "working fire" over the radio is simply not enough for incoming units to make tactical decisions. They need to know exactly what they are dealing with before they ever step off the rig.

Todd Edwards served for over 30 years with Atlanta Fire Rescue. He is a second-generation firefighter and the creator of the presentation "Size-Up: A System for Success." During his career with Atlanta, he held a variety of positions, including Captain, Battalion Chief, and Assistant Fire Chief.

You took an oath to protect life. It is the driving force behind every decision you make when you pull up to a working fire. But that drive has to be balanced with reality.

The question isn't just "is the building searchable?" The harder question is: "Is it survivable?"

Joining me is Sean Duffy, a firefighter on a mission to redefine the boundary between searchable space and survivable space. Sean is a vocal advocate for the Firefighter Rescue Survey, using hard data to prove that victims can—and do—survive in structures with over 75% fire involvement.

Sean is a highly respected instructor and the voice behind the presentation "Searchable vs. Survivable: Educated Decision Making." He’s here to discuss how to move beyond guessing and start using data, fire behavior, and building construction to make the toughest call on the fireground.

He’s a firefighter for the City of Ann Arbor, Michigan, where he’s been for almost 20 years.

I last had him on the show talking about the reasons why 2-in/2-out is a concept whose time has passed.

But my guest today argues that if your station’s culture is toxic, you shouldn't be looking at the Fire Chief for help... you should be looking in the mirror for solutions to your problems.

Yep. The most powerful person in the department isn’t the one with the bugles on their collar—it’s the Company Officer sitting at the kitchen table.

Dr. Candace Ashby is a Battalion Chief with the Indianapolis Fire Department. She holds a PhD in Organizational Leadership. She is the creator of "Leadership from the Bottom Up," a no-nonsense approach that challenges firefighters to stop playing the blame game and start taking ownership of their department.

She joins me today to talk about why we need to stop waiting for permission to lead, how to turn bitterness into betterment, and why the future of the fire service depends on the men and women riding the engines

Not just the tools, but the mindset, the assignments, and the split-second decisions made in the first few minutes.

After the high-fives and backslapping, it’s time to analyze how you did it. So you’ll do it right the next time, too.

And to look at your mistakes, so you can avoid them the next time.

My guest today has turned that breakdown into a science. D.J. Stone is a Battalion Chief with the South Walton Fire District in Florida. He’s the creator of "The Grab Analysis," a program that dissects real-world rescues—captured on video—to teach firefighters exactly how to prioritize the search and get victims out alive.

On this edition of Code 3, we discuss aggressive search culture, the "850" method, and why preparation starts long before the tones drop.

But there is a tendency in the modern fire service to meet that chaos with complexity—adding more gadgets, more steps, and more theories to what is, at its heart, a simple physical battle.

When the heat is high and visibility is zero, complexity is the enemy. It slows you down. And in this job, slow can be fatal—in fact, it has been.

So, how do we strip away the noise and get back to what actually puts the fire out?

Today, we’re going to discuss the "Keep It Simple" philosophy. We’ll talk about why firefighters need to slow down, the specific mechanics of a good hose stretch, and why the most advanced piece of technology on the fireground is still a well-trained firefighter with a nozzle.

My guest today believes the answer lies in four simple words: Stretch. Charge. Flow. And Move.

Daryl Liggins is a retired Training Captain from the Oakland Fire Department, a department known for its aggressive interior culture and heavy fire duty. Throughout his career, Daryl has been a student of the engine company. He has championed the idea that mastering the basics isn’t about being "old school"—it’s about being effective.

Depending on your level of experience, you may think you do, but you still might not have a really solid understanding of why it works. Simply cutting a random 4x4-foot hole in the roof won't do the job in all cases.

My guest today has a good deal of experience as a firefighter, but he admits that, until he saw a live fire test, he misunderstood how cutting a hole in the roof affects the fire.

We’ll talk about that, as well as when it’s the best time to vent the roof, how dangerous it is to work up there, how handlines can be used to move air and smoke with it, and how much training firefighters need to remain proficient in roof operations.

Nicholas Papa is a 17-year veteran of the New Britain, Connecticut, Fire Department, where he’s a captain. He became a firefighter in 2003, volunteering for a neighboring suburb until he was hired by New Britain. He is the author of the book Coordinating Ventilation: Supporting Extinguishment & Survivability.

He has a massive presence on Facebook and about 6,000 followers.

Chief Ike, as he’s also known, has had a 30-plus-year career in the fire service.

He's also been an advocate for treatment of firefighters who sufFer from PTSD.

So it was not a big surprise when Curt decided to enroll in the IAFF’s Center of

Excellence for Behavioral Health Treatment and Recovery.

It’s an in-patient treatment program held at a facility in Maryland. The program is

designed for firefighters and treats a variety of emotional problems. While

about a third of the participants suffer from PTSD, there are also victims of

substance abuse and other issues, like depression.

In Curt’s case, he decided to check himself in to be treated for PTSD.

As his social media followers know, his request for time off to be treated was

denied by his employer, Escambia, County, Florida, Fire-Rescue.

Curt decided to go anyway.

When he returned, he was forced into retirement.

But Curt is not sorry he went, even though he lost his job.

different. This was a time of rubber boots, and riding the tailboard of the

engine. SCBAs were the newest thing, and not everyone got to have one.

When Bill Niemann joined the fire service in 1976, the landscape looked very

different. This was a time of rubber boots, and riding the tailboard of the

engine. SCBAs were the newest thing, and not everyone got to have one.

But for the second half of his career in the fire service, Bill carried a gun. He

was an assistant fire marshal assigned to the Arson Crimes Unit of Prince

William County, Virginia. Back then, there were no rules for fire investigations.

Just wait until you hear how he wrote his own rulebook.

Speaking of writing, Bill has also written a novel. It’s titled “Heavy Fire Showing.”

But for the second half of his career in the fire service, Bill carried a gun. He

was an assistant fire marshal assigned to the Arson Crimes Unit of Prince

William County, Virginia. Back then, there were no rules for fire investigations.

Just wait until you hear how he wrote his own rulebook.

Speaking

of writing, Bill has also written a novel. It’s titled “Heavy Fire Showing.”

When

Bill Niemann joined the fire service in 1976, the landscape looked very

different. This was a time of rubber boots, and riding the tailboard of the

engine. SCBAs were the newest thing, and not everyone got to have one.

But

for the second half of his career in the fire service, Bill carried a gun. He

was an assistant fire marshal assigned

to the Arson Crimes Unit of Prince

William County, Virginia. Back then, there were no rules for fire investigations.

Just wait until you hear how he wrote his

own rulebook.

Speaking

of writing, Bill has also written a novel. It’s titled “Heavy Fire Showing.”

The issue is, who’s going to be the IC on a given fireground.

Now, if your volunteer department is lucky enough to have career firefighters showing up to calls with you, the problem’s not so bad. Odds are, that career firefighter is going to be the one who takes command of the scene.

But what if the response is all-volunteer? Who takes command then?

That’s the question we’re going to examine on this edition of Code 3.

My guest today is Richard Ray. He’s got over 30 years in the fire service. He’s both a firefighter with the Creedmoor, North Carolina Volunteer Fire Department. His full-time job is battalion chief with the Durham, North Carolina Fire Department. He instructs on a national level as well.

It’s about a Fire Chief who lost his job after he incurred the wrath of the Union

Local’s officials and, ultimately, the IAFF.

Scott Freitag was the chief of the Central Arizona Fire and Medical Authority, or

CAFMA.

The agency was created under Scott’s leadership when two fire districts combined under

a JMA to form CAFMA in 2015.

CAFMA covers 365 square miles of territory of Yavapai County, Arizona. And it serves

about 100,000 residents from 12 stations.

One day in August 2024, a press release showed up in email inboxes saying that the

IAFF had censured Scott Freitag by a vote of 2,520 to 0.

I

was pretty startled to get this news because I know Scott Freitag to be an

honest, decent Fire Chief who was genuinely concerned about the welfare of his

firefighters.

As you’ll hear, the no-confidence vote led to Scott’s firing after 11 years as

Fire Chief in September 2024.

How this all went down depends on whose story you believe. It may well have had

little to do with firefighting and much more to do with politics and a health

plan.

Well, if you are, I have good news: today’s show is about thinking inside the

box.

It's about looking at structures as a series of boxes, determining which box has the

active fire in it, and how to attack that fire. Boxes determine flow path in

large modern residential structures.

It’s an interesting idea, and it was developed for the Plano, Texas fire department

by Eric Wahlberg, a 30-year veteran of Fire/Rescue and an assistant

chief. He is also a Master Firefighter with the state of Texas.

ladder.

Once you learned how to throw one, it was no big deal, right? The longer the ladder, the more firefighters get to carry it. Except…

What if there’s not enough people on the fireground to do that?

You might be surprised to find that the 24-foot extension ladder can safely be carried and placed by just one firefighter.

Now, a lot of understaffed fire departments, especially volunteers, already know this. But if you started at a fully-staffed department, you may not have had to throw a ladder this size alone.

Today’s guest runs seminars on the use of ground ladders, and this is one of his favorite topics.

Kevin Weis started his career in the fire service in 2012 as a volunteer firefighter in Coldwater, Ohio. He’s been on the career side since 2014, starting in Defiance, Ohio. In 2020, he moved to the Glendale, Arizona Fire Department.

Kevin’s currently

a firefighter/ paramedic and specializes in TRT & Haz Mat. He’s also been a

fire inspector.

He teaches

several hands-on-subjects, including search

tactics, forcible entry, hose line management, and of course, ground  ladders.

In an urban environment, CRR may mean doing a meeting with the people you serve. Or maybe you’re changing smoke alarm batteries.

Either of those—not exciting, but not so much work, either.

But if your department covers urban and rural areas, where you could be tasked to fight a brush fire, well, now you may have to do some physical labor ... plus those meetings.

Not all, or even many, departments have dedicated crews to community risk reduction. Often, CRR is one person, whose job may include other responsibilities.

Today, I’m talking with one of our favorite guests, Chad Costa, about what CRR can do for your community…and what you can get out of it, too.

Chad is assistant fire chief for the Petaluma, California, fire department. He has over 25 years on the job.

How much thought do you put into where you set up your command post?

Is it usually on the alpha side of a structure? Why is that? Routine? Street access?

What about distractions? For example, noise. That can not only give you a headache but also make you miss an urgent radio call, right?

My guest on this edition of Code 3 has been considering questions like this for a while. He has suggestions for things to think about the next time you pull up to the fireground and are ready to drop that tailgate.

Robby Bergerson is the executive deputy chief of the Waco, Texas Fire Department. He’s got three decades in the fire service, having served in every rank and supervising every division. He’s also a credentialed Chief Fire Officer through CPSE.

On this episode, we’re talking about the importance of setting standards for probie training.

Years ago, that training consisted of handing the probie a mop as often as a ladder. It was designed to “teach a solid work ethic.”

But just as hazing has (mostly) faded away in the firehouse, new firefighters expect better training on the techniques they’ll need in the field. Their bosses expect them to know those tactics as well.

That’s why today’s guest says it's important to set the bar for probies and keep raising it. He has some ideas of how to do that.

Jesse Marcotte is the training chief for the Northville Township, Michigan Fire Department. He is a member of the UL FSRI Training Advisory Committee. And he served as a board member of the ISFSI.

He also spoke on today’s topic at FDIC 2024.

I’m talking about the two-in/two-out rule, contained in NFPA 1500.

There’s a new report written by five prominent members of the fire service that says two-in/two-out doesn’t make firefighters any safer. Instead, the time wasted waiting for a RIC crew to get ready makes it more likely that civilian victims will be killed.

The report uses data from Project Mayday to support this claim. It points out that when firefighters die in the line of duty, it isn’t usually in a mayday situation.

It also says that if a mayday is called, it’s more likely that another interior crew member will make the save.

The rule is routinely circumvented by departments that need to get inside a building but don’t have enough people on the fireground to do it.

An OSHA ruling would add some enforcement teeth to NFPA 1500.

The report’s titled, “Removing Two-In/Two-Out: A Modern, Data-supported Defense of Our Core Mission." It was written by Bill Carey, Sean Duffy, Nick Ledin, Chris Thompson and Scott Thompson.

Sean Duffy is acting as the PIO for the group and spoke to me about the report.

Sometimes, it seems like fire departments must keep Microsoft in business, what with all the PowerPoint software they must be ordering.

And you know the instruction -- notice I didn’t say “learning” – keeps going like this until you retire. Want to be a Battalion Chief? There’s a lecture and PowerPoint for that. An Engineer? Yep, got it covered. Captain? Of course.

Now, I know the fire service doesn’t like change. As Chief Brunacini said, "Firefighters hate two things—change and the way things are now.”

But maybe it is time to teach differently. If you’ve ever lectured to a room full of Millennials or Gen Z, you know they don’t get much out of it. They’re on their phones.

Here to explore some fresh ideas for teaching is Jennifer Stanislaw.

She heads up the West Salem, Oregon, High School Emergency Services Program. She also has over 25 years of experience as a paramedic and volunteer firefighter.

Not long after that, he created the Halligan Hook. Sometimes it’s called a New York Roof Hook.

This six-foot bar is a favorite of truckies who need to open up roofs.

But there’s another way to use the Halligan Hook: as a rescue tool.

It takes a little creativity to see a bar meant for ripping open a roof as a way to save a firefighter's life.

Today’s guest is here to explain how to do it.

AB Turenne is the captain of training and safety with a career department in Middlesex County, Connecticut. He’s got 25 years on the job and is a certified Level III Fire Service Instructor.

I’d say it was a call to arms… a call to take revolutionary action.

Chief David Rhodes spoke for about a half-hour, laying out a case for change in the fire service.

His main argument: that the fire service has become too risk-averse. That the leaders of departments are so afraid of injuries—and of course, lawsuits—that they don’t want firefighters to take any risks on the fireground.

Or even in training.

He said that puts citizens in danger.

And he said that change needs to happen, from the bottom up. It sure won’t come from the top down.

Here to discuss that with me is David Rhodes.

Chief Rhodes had nearly four decades in the fire service when he retired from the Atlanta, Georgia Fire Department. He currently serves as the Editor in Chief of Fire Engineering magazine. He’s also the Educational Director for FDIC.

At the same time career departments are seeing a drop in applicants, they’re also losing existing firefighters.

This is a problem.

Once upon a time, not so long ago, it was tough to get a job in the fire department.

But now, fewer people line up for those spots.

Maybe it’s generational, maybe it’s just a natural cycle and it’ll change.

Or maybe it’s something more.

Here to discuss that with me is Dr. Reggie Freeman.

He’s the chief risk officer for the HAI Group, based in Cheshire, Connecticut. He’s served as the fire chief of three departments: Oakland, California, Hartfort, Connecticut and Lockheed Martin Aeronautics. He’s also a member of the board of directors of the NFPA.

The opposite is also true.

What’s the compromise between the two?

It seems as if firefighters don’t believe that it’s possible to be both aggressive and safe.

It is, of course, and my guest today is here to offer some suggestions about how you can implement both.

He’s no wimp—he puts Mrs. Smith first, his crew second, and his own personal safety third.

Ryan Scellick is a Captain at the City of Pasco Fire Department, in Washington State. He is the co-owner of Young Officers on Fire which puts on annual conferences, trainings, and manages a national non-profit mentorship group.

A stuffed-full self-storage locker.

But that’s exactly what can happen. And even if the victim’s not inside at the time of the fire, their activities may have caused it.

Those storage spaces are frequently climate-controlled, and they’re cheap…maybe $100 a month for a small one.

That makes them seem like a great place to live for someone who can’t afford to rent an apartment.

They aren’t, of course, and occupants who choose to try living in one can become the victim of a fire they can’t escape.

This week, my guest tells us about his experiences with homeless people who tried to make a storage unit home…and regretted it.

Tim Thompson is chief of the Georgetown, Kentucky Fire Department. He’s worked his way up over 19 years of service from firefighter to the boss. He’s also a member of the Kentucky Association of Fire Chiefs.

There’s a whole class of hazardous chemicals that can damage your hearing, and they’re by-products of your average structure fire.

Yes, that’s right: When you burn home furnishings, you don’t just get carcinogens. You get “ototoxic” chemicals.

Now, the PPE you wear routinely for firefighting protects against this.

But—just like the stuff in smoke that causes cancer—ototoxic chemicals are a threat when you least expect them: during overhaul and even standing outside a burning structure.

And when you combine exposure to ototoxins with screaming sirens and fireground noise, well, it’s no surprise that firefighters are often retiring with substantial hearing loss.

Here to tell you what you need to know is Brian Daboul. He’s chief of the Mine Hill Fire Department in New Jersey. That’s a volunteer department, and Brian’s paid job is in occupational safety strategy and program development. He is also the owner of BGD Safety and Compliance, LLC, which serves industry and fire departments.

PFS layers are what give current turnout coats and pants their oil and water repellency.

They're also a known carcinogen, so donning PPE made with PFAS is dangerous even before you step onto your engine or truck.

Unfortunately, when the study looked at alternatives, it found that all oil repellents can also repel water, but all water repellents don’t necessarily repel oil.

My guest on this show is Bryan Ormond, an assistant professor of textile engineering, chemistry and science at NC State. He also wrote up the results of the study.

One

of the best ways to learn anything is by experience.

A

better way, though, is to learn from others’ experiences.

That’s

why we’re talking with today’s guest—to get some insight from someone who

learned the hard way.

Captain

Jeremiah King has been with the Central Arizona Fire and Medical Authority for

more than 20 years.

But

the story of this response takes place when he was about four years into his career.

And

as you’ll hear, that career—not to mention, his life—nearly came to an end one

night on a structure fire in a large home.

One of the best ways to learn anything is by experience.

A better way, though, is to learn from others’ experiences.

That’s why we’re talking with today’s guest—to get some insight from someone who

learned the hard way.

Captain Jeremiah King has been with the Central Arizona Fire and Medical Authority for

more than 20 years.

But the story of this response takes place when he was about four years into his career.

And as you’ll hear, that career—not to mention, his life—nearly came to an end one

night on a structure fire in a large home.

awareness is critical to safety and effectiveness on the fireground.

But visibility, a key part of that awareness, is often limited by thick smoke in the wildland fire environment.

Call it the fog of war, if you like.

No matter what you call it, it’s tough to fight a fire when you can’t see through the smoke.

That lack of visibility can lead to all kinds of trouble—especially vehicle accidents.

Today, in this special edition of Code 3, we’ll explore one commercial product that can make the wildland environment safer for firefighters.

It’s called Hypersight, built by RPX Technologies. It’s a tough, vehicle-mounted thermal imaging camera. It allows the crew in the cab to see through smoke as they drive.

But it can show more than that, and as you’ll hear, it also has applications in urban firefighting settings.

And joining me is Stan Cannata, to explain how the HyperSight system gives fire crews an advantage in dangerous situations.

organization. For example, Its reports are routinely used by fire departments

to justify staffing requests.

But not everyone is satisfied with how the NFPA operates. Some members of the fire

service believe the standards for equipment service life are too inflexible.

And there’s the question of who writes the standards in the first place.

One of the NFPA’s loudest critics on social media is Bobby Eckert. He’s a

Captain with the City of Camden Fire Department in New Jersey. Bobby also owns

and operates Eckert Fire Tactics.

We decided to ask Bobby to explain his concerns about the NFPA.

We initially asked the NFPA to participate in a debate-style format with Bobby,

but they declined the offer. Instead, they offered a representative who would

do a one-on-one interview.

We agreed to that, and I was able to ask questions of the NFPA’s Responder Technical

Lead, Curt Floyd.

Then we matched up Curt’s answers with Bobby’s questions.

It may have come as a complete surprise to you. Or maybe you had been worried about the firefighter’s state of mind.

There’s been a lot said and written about what we can do for ourselves to prevent suicide.

But today, we’re going to talk about a program designed to help you intervene in another firefighter’s emotional crisis before it becomes a fatal one.

It's called “Small Bites.” Because that’s how you fix an elephant-size problem…one small bite at a time.

The program was developed by Sheena Glover. She is a captain with the Omaha, Nebraska Fire Department. She’s a 15-year veteran and holds several specialty ratings. Sheena is just the fourth Black female in the history of the department.

They were hotshots, the kind of people who really do fight fire with fire.

Led by a consummate professional, the team made a move that no one expected and no one can explain.

That move caused the deaths of the entire crew except for a lookout, who was stationed some distance away.

To help me tell their story today, I’ve enlisted the help of Todd Able. He’s a battalion chief with the Central Arizona Fire and Medical Authority. He is also an experienced Type I Operations Section Chief for wildland fires. And that’s where he was assigned on the Yarnell Hill fire.

Nowadays, of course, there’s no real “season” when wildland fires burn. The season can be all year long in some parts of the country.

We won’t argue about the reasons why—suffice it to say, wildland fires are growing bigger and more frequent than in the past.

And, as residents of the northeast U.S. can attest, they are starting to burn in less fire-prone regions.

With that in mind, and considering that this month is the 10th anniversary of the loss of the Granite Mountain Hotshots in Arizona, we’re talking wildland fires.

This time, it’s a sort of primer on decision-making for those fighting fires in the backcountry. And some lessons learned from a guest who’s familiar to those who have listened to Code 3 for a while.

Chad Costa is Assistant Fire Chief for the city of Petaluma, California. He’s had 24 years of experience working in both urban and wildland firefighting environments. That includes time at Cal Fire and as an Operations Branch Director for California Interagency Team 1.

If you’re newer to the fire service, say two or three years in, you’re probably still in reasonably good shape. After all, you had to meet minimum standards at the fire academy.

But unless you’ve kept up with the physical fitness regimen, you may be getting a little soft around the middle.

Or losing endurance.

My guest today says it’s time to do something about that.

Aaron Zamzow is a firefighter/training officer at the Madison, Wisconsin, Fire Department. He has 20 years of experience as a fitness trainer, for athletes and others. He created Fire Rescue Fitness and lectures everywhere.

And he has a podcast, too, called Better Every Shift, on FireRescue1.com

As you may know—and as Phil likes to remind us—smoke is fuel.

In most cases, it’s just waiting for the right conditions to ignite.

We’ll discuss how to keep that from happening.

Also on the agenda is a little talk about the relative merits of vertical ventilation. When do you go to the roof and start opening it up? It’s all about coordination.

And finally, we’ll talk about when it’s time to change how things are done on your fireground.

Sounds interesting, doesn’t it?

Phil Jose retired from Seattle Fire Department as the Deputy Chief of Operations/Shift Commander after 31 years of service. He’s had the opportunity to work in the training division as a Lieutenant, Captain, and Deputy Chief. Phil is a popular seminar speaker around the country, a published author, and he also runs Ignition Point Training.

On this edition of Code 3, we’re going to talk about a documentary available on YouTube that brings the problem home in a very impactful way.

It's titled, “The Call We Carry: Confronting PTSD in the Fire Service.”

It’s quite a good documentary, packing a lot into just over an hour of screen time, and winning some prestigious film festival awards.

The film was produced and directed by firefighter-paramedic Cody Shea. He’s been with the Tacoma, Washington Fire Department since 2018.

We’re talking structure fires, risk, and SLICE-RS.

If you’re a probie, that’s an acronym for Size-up, Locate the fire, Isolate the flow path, Cool from a safe distance, Extinguish, Rescue and Salvage at any time in the process.

Today’s guest says that, by following those steps in that order, you’ll have a less risky fireground.

But what about those who advocate for RECEO-VS? That’s Rescue, Exposure, Confine, Extinguish, Overhaul and Ventilate, Salvage.

That puts “rescue” first, which, while it may not be as safe for the firefighter, suggests that saving lives is the priority in a structure fire.

But can using SLICE-RS result in more lives saved? How is that possible?

I’ll ask that of Robert Avsec.

He retired as a Battalion Chief with the Chesterfield, Virginia Fire & EMS Department after 26 years of service. He’s instructed fire, EMS and hazardous materials courses at the local, state and federal levels, including 10 years with the National Fire Academy. He writes a blog and is a published author.

If it does, that’s not a bad thing—so stick with me. You could save your own career.

I am talking about harassment in the fire service, both sexual harassment and other types.

Now, look, you know and I know that it goes on. And you know and I know that there have been so-called “sensitivity training” seminars. We also know that they usually aren't well received. Go ahead, admit it. You snickered—or groaned—the last time word came down that there was one you had to attend.

And by the way, if your department or house doesn't have these problems, that’s great. But it doesn’t mean they’ve been extinguished. Harassment still goes on.

My guest on this edition knows all that, too. She’s here to talk about how strong leadership can help eliminate it.

Linda Willing is one of our favorite returning guests here on Code 3.

She’s a retired career fire officer from the Boulder, Colorado Fire Department, who consults with emergency services agencies and other companies through her company, RealWorld Training and Consulting. She’s also a published author and instructs at the National Fire Academy.

But how strong is that bond, really?

One of the best places to see the strength of the brotherhood in action is when tragedy occurs.

A mayday call on the fireground results in heroic efforts…and, if those efforts should fail…then the observances for a line-of-duty-death are truly heartwarming.

But what about the rest of the time? When things are routine, how’s your family doing?

My guest today says the brotherhood these days may need some work.

John Cuomo has nearly three decades in the fire service. He’s worked just about every position you can have in the job. He also served as pension representative for a police and firefighter pension fund for 10 years.

He's also written a book, titled "Leadership Refined by Fire".

But one thing that’s more dependent on the culture of your department than you might think is recruiting.

This is especially important if you need to recruit volunteers.

Luckily, it’s possible to build the culture you want to see, if you address the issue specifically.

My guest today has some ideas on teambuilding by developing a positive culture.

Jason Caughey is the fire chief at Laramie County Fire District #2 in Cheyenne, Wyoming. He’s also been the fire chief of Gore Hill Fire Rescue in Great Falls, Montana.

But what if you want to try to engage the community without those resources?

Social media can be a direct link with the customers your department serves, so it’s a no-brainer that you’d like to be all over Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, TikTok, and all the others. Even podcasts.

Not to mention that your message can be sent the way you want—not filtered through the editors and reporters of your local news providers.

How do you do it?

My two guests today come from the Central Arizona Fire and Medical Authority, or CAFMA. It’s medium-small career department, covering several small cities and a lot of rural area, populated by about 106,000 residents. They do it with 10 full-time stations and 2 reserve stations.

And NO full-time PIO.

et CAFMA’s social media program is impressive. And I’m saying this as someone who has seen the Los Angeles City Fire Department’s social media program at work.

My guests today are here to explain how they do it.

We're talking with CAFMA Chief Scott Freitag, an old friend of Code 3, and Kathy Goodman, Scott’s Community Relations Coordinator, who is the driving force behind this social media campaign.

But in the last few years, truly massive warehouses have started to appear. These monsters aren’t measured in square feet, they're measured in acres of land covered.

If anything—from a fire to a natural disaster—brings you to one of them, your department may well be unable to deal with the situation.

That’s why today’s guest says you must prepare well in advance for a mega-warehouse fire.

Steve Lohr is the fire chief in Hagerstown, Maryland. In 2014, he retired as chief of the Montgomery County, Maryland Fire-Rescue Department after a 30-year career.

They were gathered to hear about Mrs. Smith.

Back in 1996, Chief Brunacini—Bruno, to his friends—came up with the idea of Mrs. Smith. She represents why the fire service exists—she’s the first priority for firefighters, the customer they serve. She stands for all the people who call for any kind of help from the fire department.

Bruno left us in 2017, but Mrs. Smith remains as his legacy, with her influence growing. As each class of recruits is taught to remember her, and more members of other departments hear about what she stands for, they carry the message of customer service nationwide.

So what was the big deal about this two-day event? It was-and is—about just what the Symposium’s slogan says: Taking Care of Mrs. Smith.

You know, the ones where the instructors design something totally implausible into the scenario.

They usually fool the firefighters doing the training…and then that allows the instructor to say something that seems wise.

Like, “expect the unexpected.”

Sometimes, they’ll simply judge a specific thing with undue emphasis. Like always using a stopwatch, no matter the circumstances.

Why shouldn’t instructors use these kinds of tactics? Today’s guest explains what can happen when they do. And why they don’t end up with the real-world results the trainers want to see.

Doug Cupp is the fire chief at the Greater Eagle Fire Protection District in Colorado. His company, Doug Cupp and Associates, delivers courses based on his research on critical decision-making, leading to crisis and human error. Doug holds a master’s degree in Emergency Management and Fire and Emergency Services Management.

Some people call them “the hill you’re willing to die on.”

But no matter what you call them, you need to pick your battles when it comes to spouting off about these points of view.

My guest today wrote an article about his experiences fighting the smooth bore vs. fog nozzle debate. He finally realized, years later, that he wasn’t going to change peoples’ minds, and, more importantly, he didn’t need to. Water will get on the fire either way.

That’s when he decided to start thinking about issues that do have an impact, things that should maybe be changed for a good reason.

Philip Clark works as a full-time firefighter with the Lincolnton, North Carolina Fire Department. Phil joined the fire service in 2002 as a volunteer and has worked for several volunteer and combination departments since then. He lives in Dallas, North Carolina, and is a captain for the Town of Dallas Fire Department.

Things are looking a little murky as we try to see the future of the fire service.

Of course, firefighters in general can be just a bit pessimistic. But is it justified?

That’s why I’ve asked today’s guest to give us some insight into next year. I figure, if we have an idea of what’s coming, we can be better prepared for it.

Dr. Randall W. Hanifen is an assistant chief of operations for West Chester, Ohio, Fire. He’s also an associate professor at the American Public University’s Emergency Management program, and an adjunct professor at the University of Cincinnati.

He's CEO of Hanifen & Associates, a national fire service consulting company.

Are they lacking passion for the job?

Today’s guest has been noticing that trend, and he’s concerned. Now, let’s be clear: no one is advocating that firefighters freelance or even take uncalculated or foolhardy risks.

But whether it’s making entry at a partially-involved structure fire or treating a COVID patient, he’s more than a little concerned that risk-taking is not something firefighters are prepared to do.

And, he points out, that’s why you took the oath in the first place, right?

Steve Prziborowski has more than 30 years of fire service experience. He’s a retired deputy chief of training for the Santa Clara County Fire Department in CA. He runs Code 3 Fire Training and Education. (No relation to this podcast.) He has written and been a part of articles, podcasts, videos, blogs and published four career development books, with a fifth on the way.

It’s because there are fewer actual structure fires these days for younger firefighters to see first-hand. That means they need to learn both skills and understanding in training. And to absorb the concepts well enough that it doesn't take thought to do them. They become automatic.

So you do it over and over. Because it may take a couple of dozen reps to build muscle memory. A firefighter who is struggling with the ladder is not paying attention to the conditions around him or her.

My guest today is an expert on training and the difference between performance and understanding. Fred Kauser is the chief of the Mifflin Township, Ohio, Division of Fire. He runs a career department with 100 members. Mifflin Fire responds to about 11,000 incidents a year. He has a PhD and teaches various topics related to firefighting.

And years later, the firefighter involved is still trying to sort out all of what she should take from the experience. It's not cut-and-dried by any means.

But it’s worth hearing about, no matter how long you’ve been a member of the fire service. Returning to Code 3 to tell her story is Kaci Corrigan.

She’s a battalion chief at a department in Northwest Pierce County, Washington. She’s also an instructor with First Due Training in Washington State, as well as an adjunct instructor with Fire By Trade.

If you’re new to the fire service career, you may wonder if you’ll ever go on a structure fire run. If you’re an officer, you might worry that your career is stalled.

But there are some things to consider before you decide that it’s hopeless. My guest today says being assigned to that station can be like “being sent to Siberia.”

Linda Willing has been on Code 3 before. She’s a retired career fire officer. She owns RealWorld Training and Consulting, which works with emergency service agencies. She is also an adjunct instructor and curriculum advisor for the National Fire Academy, and has written a book, titled On the Line: Women Firefighters Tell Their Stories.

Jennifer Osborne is a 16-year veteran of the Clark County, Nevada, Fire Department. They cover an area in and around Las Vegas. She first became a paramedic in Colorado in 1999 before heading to the fire academy.

So she’s been around long enough to have gained some perspective on what it’s like to be in a very small minority…in fact, she was just the third black female firefighter in her current department when she finished the academy.

Jennifer has enjoyed her career—she’s an engineer now—but, as you might expect, there have been a few struggles along the way.

Most firefighters want to move up and take charge of the crew. It’s natural to assume you could do it better, right? And there’s the pay bump.

But once you pass the test and are selected, you may find it’s a whole different ballgame than you thought. Especially these days, there isn’t a whole lot of fireground commanding involved in being a company officer.

It’s a good dose of administrative work punctuated by training evolutions and then…then…you need to be ready for the structure fire when it happens.

My guest today is here to discuss what he’s learned about what it is to be a company officer. Jacob Johnson is a returning guest to Code 3. He’s an assistant chief for the city of Pearland, Texas Fire Department. He over has two decades in the fire service.

It wasn’t long before I got caught up in a discussion about the “state of the Union” of Fire vs. EMS. It’s a hot button issue, for sure.

My guest on this edition of Code 3, Wes Ward, says there’s a “ridiculous gap” between the two, one that’s totally unnecessary. And if you don’t know him, Wes has been a battalion chief serving as the director of EMS for Center Point Fire District in Alabama. Before that, he was a fire captain at Birmingham Fire and Rescue.

So, yes, he’s been on both sides of the divide, and he believes there shouldn’t even be a divide between Fire and EMS.

Brian McDonald is an author, but not a firefighter. He’s written several books about New York City, and his latest is about the FDNY.

Five Floors Up focuses on two firefighting families, and one man specifically. William Feehan worked his way from probie to Fire Commissioner. He lost his life on September 11, 2001, along with 342 other members of the FDNY who were at the World Trade Center scene.

As Brian tells his story, he delves into the history of the department, giving us an honest appraisal of its darker days and politics. Still, it’s an inspiring story of two families, covering four generations of everyday heroes.

Brian is a native New Yorker, born in the Bronx, He has written other non-fiction books about the city, with titles like My Father’s Gun and Last Call at Elaine’s.

Or—and this is the best, I think—do you look at them as professionals just doing their jobs, reporting the news?

I’ve been a journalist for 30-plus years, and I can tell you that, while reporters sometimes make mistakes, very few are out to “get” you, as a firefighter. They’re also generally not out to make your department look bad.

So, the question is, how do you get the news media to help you? It’s not hard. Just give them what they want—a good story—and they’ll be happy. Don’t act like there’s something to hide, especially when there isn’t anything to hide!

My guest today will explain how to do that better. Robert Leonard has over 30 years of service as a firefighter, officer and EMT. Rob’s been FDNY’s Deputy Director of Public Information and Deputy Press Secretary for Uniformed and Emergency Services to the Mayor of the City of New York.

He is an Assistant Chief of the Syosset Fire Department on Long Island and a Second Deputy Chief Instructor at the Nassau County Fire Service Academy.

He is also a senior executive at a national public relations firm, leading the public safety and local government practice, and a member of the Public Relations committee for the Firefighters Association of the State of New York.

I ask because the leadership landscape has changed over the last few years.

Even in my business, TV news, I was once told that you can’t just tell people to jump and expect them to ask, “How high?” anymore.

So you can imagine that the old ways of being in charge aren’t really appreciated anymore. But people are slow to change their ways, and if you’re working with a salty officer who became a firefighter 15 or 20 years ago, you might be seeing a bad example and not even realize it.

That’s why I’m talking with today’s guest. Sal Scarpa believes we can lead today’s younger firefighters in better ways than simply barking commands at them. Sal is the Fire-EMS Chief for Columbus, Georgia. He’s also the Emergency Management Agency Director for Columbus and Muscogee County. He's been in the fire service for over 30 years, having worked in Kansas City, as well as Shawnee, Kansas, and the North Kansas City, Missouri Fire Department.

But another learned skill that may be even more important is the ability to analyze decisions before they’re made. You may know it by a more familiar term, situational awareness.

Most firefighters believe they have it already, and many do. Some really don’t. But just like anything else, you can develop it, or improve on what you have.

The difference between situational awareness on the fireground and in other jobs is, of course, that people can get hurt or die if it’s not done well on this job.

My guest today is an expert in helping firefighters build their situational awareness skills and he has some tips that may make yours a bit better. Doctor Richard Gasaway is the President of Situational Awareness Matters. He leads a team of expert instructors who train and consult on safety and leadership topics.

He's written 7 books related to situational awareness, high-risk decision making and leadership, He served 33 years as a firefighter, EMT-Paramedic, company officer, training officer, fire chief and incident commander.

You might remember that I was a helicopter pilot years ago. In flying, we called these kinds of days the times we “scared ourselves.”

You invariably learn some lessons from those times, and usually humility is one of them. The realization that you could have had a very bad day is burned into your mind.

Then there are the days and weeks or even months where thing just go badly. Where we question if we’re meant to do the job in the first place.

The ones that keep us awake at night, wondering, "what if...?"

My guest today has experienced both of these situations, and he has the benefit of a long career to measure their value. He’s here to discuss what happened, how it affected him, and the lessons learned. Chad Costa is a returning guest to Code 3. He’s a battalion chief for the city of Petaluma, California Fire Department. He has two decades in the fire service, covering diverse territories from city to rural districts.

But why did you choose this career? If you’re like most people, you’ll probably mention something, at some point, about saving lives. And that’s great. It’s noble. It’s important.

Now, a second question: when was the last time you trained on saving lives? (Not counting paramedic skills.)

Sure, you can pull a line or throw a ladder in your sleep. You can force a door. You can even find a rescue dummy in a maze-training exercise. But that isn’t really rescuing someone, is it?

Finding them is hard enough, but getting them out of a fire is a whole ‘nother thing.

My guest today says his department’s culture had emphasized putting out fires so heavily that they had practically overlooked training to rescue victims of those fires. So he changed that philosophy.

Daniel Folks has been the chief of the Hammond, Louisiana fire department since June, 2019. He has 23 years of fire service experience, both as a volunteer and career firefighter. He is an instructor at the Louisiana Fire and Emergency Training Academy.

One of the specialists you’ll miss right away if you join one is the truckie. While city departments are having (good-natured) arguments over who’s better or more important, small town engine companies need to do both jobs.

And, sometimes, they need to do them with two or three firefighters on the engine. How do you manage those roles? What’s more important when you arrive on scene? Today’s guest works at both a career department and as a volunteer and he has some thoughts.

Justin Bailey is a return guest to the Code 3 podcast. He’s the fire chief of the Oliver Springs, Tennessee, Fire Department. He’s also a master firefighter with the Knoxville, Tennessee, Fire Department, where he’s worked since 2007.

You may be part of the culture that already knows and accepts this truth. But if this is a foreign idea to you, or if you disagree, consider this:

Even if you mostly run medical calls, physical conditioning is critical to your career. In fact, you need to be in top condition because you mostly run medical calls. And it isn’t just because patients are getting larger and heavier, although that is a good reason.

My guest today isn’t a firefighter or a paramedic. But he has a strong interest in helping the fire service community maintain its health. And he can tell you why it's important to think like an athlete. Daniel Higuera is an Assistant Professor of Kinesiology, in the Department of Fire Technology at Santa Ana College in Santa Ana, California.

He specializes in working with athletes and firefighters, both studying and teaching them how and why physical conditioning is so important.

Fires that threaten homes along the edge of cities and towns have turned some metro departments into wildland companies as well. It's not always a comfortable fit for crews that usually wear turnouts and expect a charged hoseline.

Now, they don the yellow shirts and work without water, digging fire breaks.

My guest today has been watching the situation and has some observations about how the transition is going.

Clare Frank retired after 30 years in the fire service. She was the State of California’s first and only female Chief of Fire Protection. And she served as fire chief at the Milpitas, California Fire Department. She’s also found time to earn a law degree and her bar card.

If practice is going to be worthwhile, we need to practice the right things the right way. Practicing the wrong things is a waste of time. And practicing doing things incorrectly only leads to learning bad habits.

And in this job, that can get you killed.

So how do we avoid this?

Ever heard of Reflexive Readiness? If you’ve heard my guest speak at a conference—you may have. Making his return to Code 3 to explain this is Corley Moore. Corley is a battalion chief for the Moore, Oklahoma Fire Department. He’s got 25 years in the fire service. And he also hosts “The Weekly Scrap” at Firehouse Vigilance.

If your department’s training schedule doesn’t include MCI-specific training, you could find yourself in trouble when you arrive at a real-world MCI and learn the hard way the importance of coordination of resources.

Even small details like not blocking-in paramedic units that need to transport become big problems when no one’s planned for them.

Here to discuss what ICs need to know about mass casualty incidents is Vince Bettinazzi. He’s a battalion chief with the Myrtle Beach, South Carolina Fire Department. He’s been there since 2007. Vince is a member of the department's Ocean Rescue Team and he’s certified USLA lifeguard. He also co-hosts the "Beyond the Stretch" podcast.

The mission, called Task Force Joint Guardian, would be the first-ever effort to send civilian firefighters and paramedics to an active overseas war zone.

Eric served two tours in the Army, and coupled with his experience as a firefighter, has the right skill set to run this operation. He solicited donations of equipment and funds to start sending rotating teams to help the Ukrainian first responders.

The first group was a success—they spent eight days working side-by-side with the Ukrainian firefighters. He’s now getting ready to send the second team. A third and fourth mission are being prepped.

Eric Hille is an Engineer with the San Miguel Fire Department. He also runs the “US/Mexico Firefighters United” nonprofit aid organization.

She had plenty of material to work with–for 28 years, Cindie was a career firefighter in Broward County, Florida, Fire-Rescue, promoting to Captain before retiring.

I spoke with her for a Code 3 episode in 2018. Since that time, she realized she had enough stories to fill a book, so she wrote one. It's a great trip through her years of working in–and excelling in–what was still really considered a man’s job.

She faced challenges and problems but overcame them all, and she talks about her time in the fire service in this show.

And there’s quite a bit about leadership and what to do once you ARE promoted.

On this edition of the show, we’re going to look at a couple of different sides of the promotion equation: How to prepare yourself for a promotion…and what impact on the department promotions may have.

Both are important, and both are often overlooked.

My guest to discuss these topics is Paul Watlington. He’s the battalion chief of training for the Burlington, North Carolina Fire Department. Paul is also a member of the Yanceyville Volunteer Fire Department. He is a 22-year veteran of the fire service and has many certifications from the National Fire Academy and the North Carolina Office of the State Fire Marshal.

How you see this situation likely depends on your age and your gender. Older male firefighters may recall a time when women were unwelcome in firehouses. They may claim quotas allowed women who weren’t qualified to work alongside men to get hired. Younger male firefighters may wonder what the big deal is…because they’ve worked with women and haven’t seen a difference in getting the job done.

But still, women don’t necessarily think of firefighting as a job for them…which is why so many departments have started recruiting women specifically. On this show, we’ll visit the Los Angeles County Fire Department’s Women’s Fire Prep Academy. It’s a five-week program that shows women what they can expect if they enter the actual fire academy.

Eric Hille, a veteran of the US Army, planned to just send USAR equipment over there. Many civilian structures are being heavily damaged by Russian rocket attacks and local USAR resources are unable to keep up.

Then, when he found out that aid workers on the ground wouldn’t know what to do with the supplies, he decided to take some volunteers to Ukraine and pitch in.

They’re raising the funds needed right now.

Eric Hille is an Engineer with the San Miguel, California, Fire Department. He also runs the “US/Mexico Firefighters United” nonprofit aid organization.

About five, six years ago, I was visiting station 71 in Prescott, Arizona. The engine was dispatched to a lift assist.

Now, you may think you know what that is, but this call was not that. Engine 71 arrived to find a woman who needed help getting up into the cab of a U-Haul truck so she could move to a new home.

I asked a firefighter why they were answering calls like that, and he said, “Scott, if we don’t go, who will?”

That’s become the definition of an “all-hazards” fire-rescue department these days, it seems. If the cops “serve and protect,” Fire’s motto might be something like, “Need help? We’ll be there.”

But if you joined the fire department thinking you were going to fight fires, you may think you’re wasting your time with medical runs to frequent fliers or lift-assists.

My guest today says firefighters need to understand that these calls are part of the job, too. They’re not throwaways. Bob Horton is the fire chief for Fire District 3 in Jackson County, Oregon. He’s on the Board of Directors for the Western Fire Chiefs Association and the Oregon Fire Chiefs Association. He serves on the IAFC’s Communications Committee and he also hosts the podcast “Assuming Command.”

Want to hear more from Chief Horton? Become a $10-a-month Patron of Code 3 and get access to our library of Bull Session content! Just click here.

The guys were cleaning up after dinner. Then the dispatcher interrupted them with a call to a structure fire.

When they arrived on scene, the crew found a single-family residence with flames showing. Police said there might be someone trapped inside.

Lt. Steve Conn and a rookie partner made entry and began to search. Minutes later, Steve found himself in a world of trouble.

What happened next taught him a lot about dealing with mayday situations and their aftermath.

Steve Conn is a battalion chief and a public information officer for the Colerain Township, Ohio, Department of Fire and EMS where he has served for over 30 years. He is also a registered nurse with 30 years of experience in interventional cardiology.

That’s thanks to “qualified immunity” laws.

But two states have passed new laws that have the effect of eliminating that protection.

And it could mean firefighters and medics in those states are in major legal trouble if a taxpayer believes they did something wrong.

My guest today is Brad Pinsky. He’s an attorney in Syracuse, New York who specializes in this area of law.

He’s also a volunteer firefighter, and was named the IAFC’s "Training Officer of the Year.”

He is the author of the “Fire Department Law and Management Resource Manual,” and the “Fire Service Secretary & Treasurer’s Manual.”

It’s called the University Fire Department. It serves a University of Alaska campus and nearby North Star Borough from two stations.

What makes this department special is that all the rigs are staffed by full-time University students, over 50 of them.

They work side-by-side with 11 career firefighters, who act as mentors. The students work 48 on/96 off shifts and are certified in firefighting and ALS. And they can make up to $30,000 a year!

When they graduate, they’re ready to go to work at any department anywhere. Here to explain how this works is University Fire’s Captain David Mattox.

Problem is, while the concept is still sound, it’s becoming harder to isolate rooms. The so-called open floorplan is eliminating walls and doors.

It's also making searches tougher because following the walls won’t let you reach far enough into the room.

My guest today has some thoughts on the merits, and some limitations, of VEIS. Eric Dreiman is a captain with the Indianapolis Fire Department. He’s been a firefighter for 25 years and he’s presented at most of the major fire conferences around the country.

My guest today was a young firefighter when he was assigned to slower station after being at a busy one. He found a crew that wasn’t much interested in training. About the time he was starting to get lazy, he realized he could do his own training even when no one else wanted to participate.

At first, his DIY approach didn’t have much impact, but slowly, the rest of the crew came around. Then he found that he could volunteer to help his department’s understaffed training division.

Kevin Whitaker is a lieutenant at the St. Lucie County, Florida, Fire District. He’s been there since 2005. He’s a state-certified fire instructor.

It can become a real problem, our guest today says. And it isn’t always easy to solve.

Fire Chief Scott Freitag has been on Code 3 a couple of times before. He heads up the Central Arizona Fire and Medical Authority, or CAFMA. Chief Freitag has been pushing his local ambulance provider to improve their resources.

But he’s met resistance, so he has started running his own borrowed ambulances—which, by law, are called “Rescues” in Arizona. He’s trying to get the state’s okay to do it officially, and the story behind the situation is interesting. You may also find it frustrating.

**NOTE: You can find further comments from Chief Freitag that didn't make the episode on my Patreon page. The Bull Session outtakes from Scott Freitag (and others) are available to anyone who joins at the $10-a-month level.

But there are a lot of places where electric vehicles –called EVs—or hybrids still aren’t common.

Problem is, these cars can be really dangerous when you do find one in an MVA.

Time was, we worried about electrical shock. But those were the early days, and the bright orange power cables have pretty well taken care of that.

Now, the worry is thermal runaways. That’s when the lithium-ion battery gets so hot it starts a chain reaction that makes it tough to extinguish.

And a lot of departments aren’t doing specialized training on how to deal with EV fires.

That’s why today we’re talking with Captain Evan Gammage of the Phoenix Arizona Fire Department. They’ve seen massive growth in EVs involved in crashes and have learned to work them differently.

If these stories brought back the memories of a horrible time, you might want to share them with your young probies. The stories reminded me that life can change in an instant. Especially in this profession. That’s a lesson young firefighters need to learn. So they can always be ready.

For starters, wildland guys sleep on the ground for days at a time. And then there’s the lack of hydrants on their firegrounds. They have to carry in all their gear, often walking miles to reach their assigned areas.

But wildland firefighters, by and large, wouldn’t trade their jobs for structure firefighting.

Today, we’re talking with a man who joined a Type 2 handcrew when he was in his thirties. That’s pretty old for a wildland firefighter. Most are in their early 20s.

Charles Vaught took advantage of his perspective—and several seasons on the handcrew— to write a book. It’s titled, “State of Fire: Life Lessons Learned on the Fireline.”

It’s a fascinating book…often raw, sometimes profane, that takes look a at a different kind of firefighting.

Company officers need to understand that not only will they be in charge at scenes, but they will become parental figures, coaches, counselors, and much more to their crew. And that’s something that is rarely taught in company officer training.

My guest today, Tim Cowan, will be teaching his class on “Riding Shotgun” at Firehouse Expo 2021 in September and he’s here to preview that class for us. Tim retired not long ago from the City of Oneida, New York, Fire Department as a deputy fire chief and fire marshal. With about three decades in fire and emergency services, he’s an active volunteer with the Canastota, New York, Fire Department. And he’s also a deputy fire coordinator and fire instructor for Madison County, New York.

Whether you’re a firefighter in a small department and you end up in that position or you want to promote to chief officer, today’s guest has some tips for you.

Tom Dunne will be giving his class on “Thinking Like an IC” at FDIC 2021 on August 3, and he’s here to preview that class for us. Tom is a retired deputy chief with 33 years at the FDNY.

He has been the incident commander at hundreds of fires and emergencies in New York City. Tom is currently giving seminars called "Third Alarm Fire Training.”

What if it doesn’t? Does that mean you don’t need to get certified?

Today, we’re talking about the need to be EMS-qualified. Think about this scenario: you respond to a structure fire along with a rescue ambulance. Almost immediately, you find a burn victim, package him up, and send him to the hospital.

Now what happens when one of your firefighters is injured making the secondary search? The EMTs are gone. A backfill crew hasn’t arrived yet.

If you can’t treat him, he’s not going to get treated. That’s just one good reason for every department to have firefighters trained in medical protocols, says today’s guest.

Michael Wolfschmidt is a fourth-generation career firefighter/EMT in Westampton Township, New Jersey. His duties range from Squad and Truck Company operations to EMS. He coordinates the training for the department as well. In addition, Mike works as a deputy district fire warden for the New Jersey Forest Fire Service. He’s a past chief and life member of the Surf City Volunteer Fire Company and EMS, where he started as a junior firefighter in 1998.

Nope, not New York. That was 1968. Not Miami. That was 1969. Not even L.A., home of the “Emergency!” TV show. The law that allowed them to practice was passed in 1970.

No, the first U.S. paramedics were from the Freedom House Ambulance program in Pittsburgh. In 1967.

And they faced opposition. The number one reason? Because the medics were nearly all Black men.

Never heard of these guys? You should know about them.

It’s a fascinating story and here to talk about it today is Ben Thompson. Ben is a captain in the Birmingham, Alabama Fire and Rescue Service. In 2016, he was awarded Emergency Medical Service Provider of the Year and he won the 2018 Joe E. Acker Award for Innovation in Emergency Medical Services. Both of those are in Jefferson County, Alabama. Naturally, he’s also a licensed paramedic.

Suddenly, friends on your shift are your subordinates.

So how do you work with them? Your first couple of days will set the tone for how you’ll relate to them for some time to come.

If you screw it up, it could take months to repair the damage.

My guest today has some insight about what they expect of you … and what you should do when you arrive at work in your new role.

Ian Emmons is the deputy chief of operations for Washington Township in Dayton, Ohio. He sits on the Board of Directors for the Safety, Health and Survival section of the IAFC, and is an IAFC Professional Development Committee member. Ian is also a CFO and CTO.

Here’s a quote from the article, which appears on the FireRescue1.com website: “We often try to ‘push’ pride in our department onto the younger members. But many of them weren’t raised with the same sense of community as we were, so they will likely never carry that pride. And that’s OK.”

Readers, as they always do, came to different conclusions about what Dan was saying.

One commenter said, “…those joining a volunteer fire department should be told what’s expected of them. There’s a minimum standard, what drills/trainings are expected, how many calls are expected from them. A fire service is a para-military organization, not the Girl Scouts. Do the job or quit.”

A reader responded, “Not sure the size of your agency, but for many rural departments if you require all members to be all in all the time without spending time with hobbies and family, you'll likely have a [smaller] membership.”

Another said, “We are no longer, or should no longer be the fraternity that is exclusive to certain members of the community who meet at the fire hall and have a card and beer party, those days are long gone!”

So...what did Dan Rogers really mean in his commentary? I found out this week.

Dan is a third-generation firefighter. He joined the Witt, Illinois, Volunteer Fire Department in 2005, and he’s now assistant chief.

And, sure, that makes smoke and flames, but how realistic are they? Modern furniture burns faster and hotter than the older stuff. Since structure fires are becoming less common, it’s important that the training simulations are as realistic as possible.

That’s where our friends at Underwriters Laboratory come in. They conducted some tests to see how typical training fires compare with real-world room-and contents fires.

My guest today is Jack Regan.

He’s a UL FSRI Research Engineer, a job he’s had since 2017. He’s also a volunteer firefighter/EMT with the College Park, Maryland Volunteer Fire Department. At the UL, he’s worked on projects that examined occupant tenability and firefighter training.

My guest today is Stan Tarnowski, who is back on Code 3 to talk about his new book, “Firefighting in the 21st Century.” It’s part memoir, part textbook, and it’s all interesting.

This is Chief Tarnowski’s third book. Stan has served as fire chief, 911 and EMA director in Union City, Georgia. He began his career in 1975 with the Boston- Logan International Airport Fire Department. Stan’s been a deputy and suppression chief at the Georgia State Fire Academy, and chief of training at the Henry County Fire Department. And he is currently the president of Firesafe Consulting Group.

My guest to discuss the value of customer service –and what it is --- has been on Code 3 before. Chad Costa is a battalion chief with the City of Petaluma, California Fire Department. He has two decades in the fire service, and he’s worked in some pretty diverse situations, from a rural department to a city as well as CAL FIRE. Chad is the technology and communications battalion chief and a division group supervisor on California Interagency Team 5.

They’re doing a fundraiser, selling "LAFD Strong" t-shirts to buy more and better equipment. So, if you’re in SoCal, listen up. If not, you are, of course, welcome to listen too, as I talk with Assistant Chief Wade White, who oversees the LAFD’s Supply and Maintenance Division. I think this certainly beats fill-the boot campaigns.

If you’d like to contribute—and get a t-shirt—go to The LAFD Foundation’s website at supportlafd.org. All the info you need is right there.

Solid or...timid?

Solid is an IC who has been trained and seasoned—and one more element: practiced.

Timid is someone who is maybe trained, but not especially seasoned, or inexperienced, and especially – a little scared.

They’re afraid someone’s going to get hurt or killed.

Today’s guest argues that a timid IC is worse than simply inefficient: they’re incompetent.

That’s what Nick Martin posted on Facebook recently. If you want to see the post, it’s linked at code3podcast dot com slash afraid. It’s one of five in a series on nervous ICs.

 Nick is a Battalion Chief with the City of Salisbury Fire Department in North Carolina. Before that, he served as the Chief of Training for the City of Columbia, South Carolina and as a Lieutenant with the District of Columbia Fire Department.

 He started with the fire service 1994 in his hometown, Swarthmore, PA.

Nick founded and runs Combat Ready Fire, which offers a variety of firefighting and fire leadership courses.

That’s true. But what’s worse is when you get someone to join, get them qualified, and then in a year or two they quit.

The NVFC says its happening at least partly because volunteers are being lured in by the big red trucks and then find they’ll spend a lot more time doing EMS work.

That makes sense. If they joined because of the video or poster of firefighters in turnouts at a structure fire, they’re going to be disillusioned. So why do departments keep doing that?

We’re discussing that today with Joe Maruca. He’s chief of the West Barnstable, Massachusetts, Fire Department. That’s a combination fire department on Cape Cod. He served as a volunteer firefighter from 1977 until becoming chief in 2005. He is a Massachusetts director on the National Volunteer Fire Council, and serves as the vice chair of the NVFC’s recruitment and retention committee. He’s also a retired attorney.

Coincidentally, Nick Salameh, a previous guest on this show, wrote an article this month for Fire Engineering that referred to Pete’s story.

He called it, “Why Aren’t More Firefighters Making the Change to Intelligent Firefighting?’

In it, he suggested that some of today’s firefighters “after a decade of findings, are still doing the same things they’ve always done when other proven tactics are available to make firefighters much more intelligent, efficient, and effective.”

Nick Salameh is a 36 year veteran of the fire service. He was a Fire/Emergency Medical Services Captain level II and previous Training Program Manager for the Arlington County, Virginia Fire Department, where he served 31 years. He is a former Chair of the Northern Virginia Fire Departments Training Committee.

A smart man learns from his mistakes.

A really smart man learns from others’ mistakes.

No where is that more accurate than in the fire service, where a mistake can kill you.

But the problem with learning like this lies in the way you do it.

How many YouTube videos have you seen where something goes wrong and there are dozens of comments written explaining how this would never have happened, if they had just (fill-in-the-blank).

The armchair ICs writing those comments weren’t there, of course, and don’t have the complete picture.

That’s not to say there’s nothing to be learned this way.

Here today to talk about what we can pick up from stories and videos of fires is David Traiforos. He had 47 years in the fire service when he retired as chief of the Franklin Park, Illinois Fire Department after three decades there. He continues as an instructor, at NIPSTA Training Academy, McHenry County College, both in Illinois. And, nationally, as the lead instructor of Great Lakes Fire & Rescue Solutions.