<![CDATA[Documentary First: Conversations on Documentary Filmmaking]]>13a30c5a-139f-5ef4-9ece-95d37ec159cbFri, 13 Nov 2026 14:41:44 +0000Captivate.fmChristian Taylor | Documentary First https://artwork.captivate.fm/159ccfef-b037-4f0d-98e1-051fecdef9c4/DF-Cover-FINAL-3000.jpgDocumentary First: Conversations on Documentary FilmmakingChristian Taylor | Documentary First Christian Taylor | Documentary First For people who make documentaries and people who love them. Discover how documentaries actually get made, paid for and seen with filmmaker Christian Taylor. Plus DocuView Deja View, where every guest recommends a documentary worth watching. Two formats, one weekly feed. One week, a long-form conversation about a guest's journey, their projects and the lessons they learned the hard way, with honest questions when something doesn't add up. The next, The Deep Dive: Christian's short solo reflection on one idea from that conversation, and where it leads. Guests have included Ken Burns, PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy, Emmy and Peabody Award-winning editor Charles Olivier (HBO's The Jinx: Part Two) and Emmy-nominated director Nicholas Bruckman (Not Going Quietly). Christian directed the award-winning documentary The Girl Who Wore Freedom, distributed by Virgil Films, Swank and Canal+. Topics include documentary films and documentary filmmaking: directing, producing, editing, funding, distribution, documentary storytelling, film festival strategy, archival footage and rights clearance, and entertainment law for filmmakers. Nearly 300 conversations. Listen Notes top 3% worldwide. 4.8 on Apple Podcasts. Follow the show and leave a review. Instagram: @documentaryfirst | Facebook: @documentaryfirst | X: @doc_first | TikTok: @documentaryfirst | YouTube: @DocumentaryFirst | LinkedIn: linkedin.com/company/35467664 | documentaryfirst.comhttps://documentaryfirst.comfalseepisodichttps://feeds.captivate.fm/documentary-first/27d36f70-4e34-11f1-8709-71989fbbb538nopodcastSupport the show: rate us, share an episode and get our free guidesNixon Knew Better. So Why Did He Do It?Nixon Knew Better. So Why Did He Do It?What can Richard Nixon's farewell speech to his staff teach us about the quiet voice we stop listening to?

On August 9, 1974, Richard Nixon said goodbye to his White House staff in the East Room, on his last morning as president, before he left the White House by helicopter. Christian Taylor found 28 minutes of film of that farewell while pulling archival footage for Documentary First Episode 289, watched every minute, and has been thinking about it ever since. In this Deep Dive, she asks what Nixon's farewell speech to his staff says about conscience, Watergate and the inner voice in all of us. Nixon, she thinks, still knew what was right. So how did he end up there?

In this Deep Dive on Documentary First Episode 289 with Shane O'Sullivan, director of The Watergate Caper: Richard Nixon and the Death of the American Dream, Christian begins from something Shane said about Nixon: he knew when his time was up. Christian started working in Washington, DC at 13, around 1980, so Watergate was always more than a history lesson to her. Then she plays Nixon in his own words. He tells his staff he is proud that nobody in his administration left with more than they came in with: "Mistakes, yes. But for personal gain, never." He talks about his father, a streetcar motorman, farmer, lemon rancher and grocer, and his mother, who lost two sons to tuberculosis, nursed four others, and who he says was a saint. To Christian, that was not a villain in a movie. It was a man who still knew what was right, standing in the wreckage of not doing it.

So how does that happen? Christian shares what she taught her kids: there are at least two voices in our heads, one telling us to do what's right, and the other pointing out quite a different path. Some call the first one conscience; others call it the Holy Spirit. She reads Romans 7:21, and along the way brings in Kronk's shoulder angel and devil from The Emperor's New Groove and a little Cookie Monster. Every time we ignore that quiet voice of conscience, she says, it gets a little harder to hear, whether the subject is cookies or a break-in and a cover-up.

Then she widens the lens, without taking sides. In 1974, Watergate outraged people in both parties. Today, Christian says, we've gotten used to so much more, in our politics, our churches, our schools and our neighborhoods, and things that would have been front-page news for months in 1974 come and go in a day. She looks back at the 1930s and 1940s and at Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who spoke up and paid for it with his life, and at Frank Wills, the night security guard who found tape on a door at the Watergate and called the police. She shares what she saw in the November 3, 2026 election: Americans showing up to vote. And she speaks to documentary filmmakers, who are supposed to be truth tellers, before turning to the Theodore Roosevelt passage Nixon read near the end of his goodbye.

WATCH THE FILM: The Watergate Caper: Richard Nixon and the Death of the American Dream, directed by Shane O'Sullivan, is available to rent or buy on Amazon, Apple TV, Fandango at Home and Google Play.

In this episode, Christian explores:

  • Why was Nixon proud that no one in his administration profited from the job?
  • What did Nixon say about his father and his mother in the farewell speech?
  • What are the two voices in our heads, and what does Romans 7:21 say about them?
  • How does ignoring your conscience make the next wrong easier?
  • Can a whole country stop listening to its conscience?
  • Why should documentary filmmakers think of themselves as truth tellers?

CHAPTERS

0:00 Nixon's Farewell to Staff

3:58 What Made Him Proud

6:01 Two Voices: Your Conscience

8:13 When Outrage Gets Smaller

10:20 Truth Tellers and T.R.

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What did Richard Nixon say in his farewell speech to his staff?

On August 9, 1974, Richard Nixon spoke to his Cabinet and White House staff in the East Room before leaving Washington. He told them he was proud that no one in his administration had profited from public service: "Mistakes, yes. But for personal gain, never." He spoke about his father and his mother, and read a passage Theodore Roosevelt wrote about his grief. In this Deep Dive, Christian Taylor walks through the speech and what it reveals.

What does Romans 7:21 say about doing right?

Romans 7:21 reads: "So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand." In this Deep Dive, Christian Taylor reads the verse as she talks about the two voices in our heads, one telling us to do what's right and one pointing to a different path. She notes that even Paul felt the wrong thing standing right next to him, and says the same is true for her.

Who was Frank Wills in the Watergate break-in?

Frank Wills was the night security guard at the Watergate who found tape on a door, took it off, found it again, and called the police, which led to the arrest of the Watergate burglars in June 1972. In this Deep Dive, Christian Taylor points out that he could have finished his shift and gone home. Instead, she says, he listened, and even Watergate came down to one man who didn't stay quiet.

What Theodore Roosevelt quote did Nixon read in his farewell speech?

Near the end of his farewell, Richard Nixon read words Theodore Roosevelt wrote after his young wife died (Nixon called it T.R.'s diary): "the light went from my life forever." Nixon answered: it is only a beginning, because "only if you've been in the deepest valley can you ever know how magnificent it is to be on the highest mountain." Christian Taylor calls it very moving from a man on the worst morning of his life.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts

Watch on YouTube

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Join the Documentary First community on Patreon

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn

ABOUT THE FILMS

The Watergate Caper: Richard Nixon and the Death of the American Dream

Shane O'Sullivan's archival documentary, narrated by Harry Shearer, tells the Watergate story through the news footage, hearings, songs and movies of the Nixon era. The Watergate Caper website

The Source Episode

What All the President's Men Didn't Show You About Watergate (Episode 289)

Read the episode page | Listen | Watch

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST: THE DEEP DIVE

For people who make documentaries and people who love them. Discover how documentaries actually get made, paid for and seen with filmmaker Christian Taylor. Plus DocuView Deja View, where every guest recommends a documentary worth watching. One week, a long-form conversation about a guest's journey, projects and lessons; the next, The Deep Dive, Christian's short solo reflection on one idea from that conversation. Guests have included Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy. Christian directed the award-winning documentary The Girl Who Wore Freedom. Nearly 300 conversations. Listen Notes top 3% worldwide. 4.8 on Apple Podcasts. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


Archival photos and film courtesy of the National Archives and the Richard Nixon Presidential Library. Photo of Dietrich Bonhoeffer with students, 1932, by an unknown photographer (Bundesarchiv, Bild 183-R0211-316), CC BY-SA 3.0 DE, via Wikimedia Commons.

]]>What can Richard Nixon's farewell speech to his staff teach us about the quiet voice we stop listening to?

On August 9, 1974, Richard Nixon said goodbye to his White House staff in the East Room, on his last morning as president, before he left the White House by helicopter. Christian Taylor found 28 minutes of film of that farewell while pulling archival footage for Documentary First Episode 289, watched every minute, and has been thinking about it ever since. In this Deep Dive, she asks what Nixon's farewell speech to his staff says about conscience, Watergate and the inner voice in all of us. Nixon, she thinks, still knew what was right. So how did he end up there?

In this Deep Dive on Documentary First Episode 289 with Shane O'Sullivan, director of The Watergate Caper: Richard Nixon and the Death of the American Dream, Christian begins from something Shane said about Nixon: he knew when his time was up. Christian started working in Washington, DC at 13, around 1980, so Watergate was always more than a history lesson to her. Then she plays Nixon in his own words. He tells his staff he is proud that nobody in his administration left with more than they came in with: "Mistakes, yes. But for personal gain, never." He talks about his father, a streetcar motorman, farmer, lemon rancher and grocer, and his mother, who lost two sons to tuberculosis, nursed four others, and who he says was a saint. To Christian, that was not a villain in a movie. It was a man who still knew what was right, standing in the wreckage of not doing it.

So how does that happen? Christian shares what she taught her kids: there are at least two voices in our heads, one telling us to do what's right, and the other pointing out quite a different path. Some call the first one conscience; others call it the Holy Spirit. She reads Romans 7:21, and along the way brings in Kronk's shoulder angel and devil from The Emperor's New Groove and a little Cookie Monster. Every time we ignore that quiet voice of conscience, she says, it gets a little harder to hear, whether the subject is cookies or a break-in and a cover-up.

Then she widens the lens, without taking sides. In 1974, Watergate outraged people in both parties. Today, Christian says, we've gotten used to so much more, in our politics, our churches, our schools and our neighborhoods, and things that would have been front-page news for months in 1974 come and go in a day. She looks back at the 1930s and 1940s and at Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who spoke up and paid for it with his life, and at Frank Wills, the night security guard who found tape on a door at the Watergate and called the police. She shares what she saw in the November 3, 2026 election: Americans showing up to vote. And she speaks to documentary filmmakers, who are supposed to be truth tellers, before turning to the Theodore Roosevelt passage Nixon read near the end of his goodbye.

WATCH THE FILM: The Watergate Caper: Richard Nixon and the Death of the American Dream, directed by Shane O'Sullivan, is available to rent or buy on Amazon, Apple TV, Fandango at Home and Google Play.

In this episode, Christian explores:

  • Why was Nixon proud that no one in his administration profited from the job?
  • What did Nixon say about his father and his mother in the farewell speech?
  • What are the two voices in our heads, and what does Romans 7:21 say about them?
  • How does ignoring your conscience make the next wrong easier?
  • Can a whole country stop listening to its conscience?
  • Why should documentary filmmakers think of themselves as truth tellers?

CHAPTERS

0:00 Nixon's Farewell to Staff

3:58 What Made Him Proud

6:01 Two Voices: Your Conscience

8:13 When Outrage Gets Smaller

10:20 Truth Tellers and T.R.

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What did Richard Nixon say in his farewell speech to his staff?

On August 9, 1974, Richard Nixon spoke to his Cabinet and White House staff in the East Room before leaving Washington. He told them he was proud that no one in his administration had profited from public service: "Mistakes, yes. But for personal gain, never." He spoke about his father and his mother, and read a passage Theodore Roosevelt wrote about his grief. In this Deep Dive, Christian Taylor walks through the speech and what it reveals.

What does Romans 7:21 say about doing right?

Romans 7:21 reads: "So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand." In this Deep Dive, Christian Taylor reads the verse as she talks about the two voices in our heads, one telling us to do what's right and one pointing to a different path. She notes that even Paul felt the wrong thing standing right next to him, and says the same is true for her.

Who was Frank Wills in the Watergate break-in?

Frank Wills was the night security guard at the Watergate who found tape on a door, took it off, found it again, and called the police, which led to the arrest of the Watergate burglars in June 1972. In this Deep Dive, Christian Taylor points out that he could have finished his shift and gone home. Instead, she says, he listened, and even Watergate came down to one man who didn't stay quiet.

What Theodore Roosevelt quote did Nixon read in his farewell speech?

Near the end of his farewell, Richard Nixon read words Theodore Roosevelt wrote after his young wife died (Nixon called it T.R.'s diary): "the light went from my life forever." Nixon answered: it is only a beginning, because "only if you've been in the deepest valley can you ever know how magnificent it is to be on the highest mountain." Christian Taylor calls it very moving from a man on the worst morning of his life.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts

Watch on YouTube

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Join the Documentary First community on Patreon

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn

ABOUT THE FILMS

The Watergate Caper: Richard Nixon and the Death of the American Dream

Shane O'Sullivan's archival documentary, narrated by Harry Shearer, tells the Watergate story through the news footage, hearings, songs and movies of the Nixon era. The Watergate Caper website

The Source Episode

What All the President's Men Didn't Show You About Watergate (Episode 289)

Read the episode page | Listen | Watch

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST: THE DEEP DIVE

For people who make documentaries and people who love them. Discover how documentaries actually get made, paid for and seen with filmmaker Christian Taylor. Plus DocuView Deja View, where every guest recommends a documentary worth watching. One week, a long-form conversation about a guest's journey, projects and lessons; the next, The Deep Dive, Christian's short solo reflection on one idea from that conversation. Guests have included Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy. Christian directed the award-winning documentary The Girl Who Wore Freedom. Nearly 300 conversations. Listen Notes top 3% worldwide. 4.8 on Apple Podcasts. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


Archival photos and film courtesy of the National Archives and the Richard Nixon Presidential Library. Photo of Dietrich Bonhoeffer with students, 1932, by an unknown photographer (Bundesarchiv, Bild 183-R0211-316), CC BY-SA 3.0 DE, via Wikimedia Commons.

]]>3513f241-6fbf-4e06-94e9-a98b2e05c179Thu, 12 Nov 2026 05:00:00 -060013:14falsefullWhat All the President's Men Didn't Show You About WatergateWhat All the President's Men Didn't Show You About WatergateDo you think you know the Watergate story?

Most people know Watergate from All the President's Men: two reporters at The Washington Post and a president brought down. Far fewer know who the burglars were, why they went into the Democratic National Committee headquarters, or why some of the investigators still suspect the break-in was sabotaged from the inside. The Watergate Caper: Richard Nixon and the Death of the American Dream, the archival documentary from Shane O'Sullivan narrated by Harry Shearer, tells that story through the news footage, hearings, songs and movies of the Nixon era.

In Episode 289, Christian sits down with Shane O'Sullivan, an Irish filmmaker and author based in London who heads Film and Photography at Kingston School of Art. Shane explains why he thinks Woodward and Bernstein get too much credit for solving Watergate, and why, in his telling, the FBI case agent and the federal prosecutor did the real investigating. He built the film from the Nixon Library's off-air news recordings, working mostly from London.

Shane walks through how he wove movies like Medium Cool, The Conversation and The Ice Storm through the news footage and hearings, set the All the President's Men version of the burglary against real witness testimony, why Harry Shearer works as a bridge rather than a conventional narrator, and how fair use clearance counsel helped him justify long movie clips. He also lays out the questions that still hang over the break-in: the tape left on the doors, why James McCord, the Nixon campaign's own head of security, went in himself, and why anyone would take the risk when Richard Nixon was already ahead of George McGovern in the polls.

WATCH THE FILM: The Watergate Caper: Richard Nixon and the Death of the American Dream is available to rent or buy on Amazon, Apple TV, Fandango at Home and Google Play.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • What Howard Hunt told the Cuban burglars to get them on board
  • How a four-hour first cut became a 105-minute film
  • Shane's advice for filmmakers: find an archive no one has fully used

CHAPTERS

0:00 The Watergate Caper Trailer

2:49 From RFK to Nixon

7:46 All the President's Men Myth

13:49 Harry Shearer and Medium Cool

17:57 When Movies Mirrored Watergate

23:47 Archival Footage and Fair Use

30:05 Dick Cavett and Howard Baker

32:46 The 18½-Minute Gap

37:22 Was the Break-In Sabotaged?

43:56 Advice for Archival Filmmakers

48:43 Sherman's March and Remake

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

How was the Watergate break-in discovered?

A security guard found tape on the doors that kept the locks from latching. According to filmmaker Shane O'Sullivan, the guard thought little of it the first time, but when he came back later and found it again, he called the police, who went up and arrested the burglars. O'Sullivan says one of the key questions is whether the tape was left on purpose to sabotage the operation.

Was the Watergate break-in sabotaged?

Some of the investigators think it may have been. Shane O'Sullivan says FBI case agent Angelo Lano still believes James McCord or Howard Hunt made mistakes on purpose to expose Nixon. McCord, the Nixon campaign's head of security and a former head of physical security at the CIA, left tape on the doors and went in himself, knowing he would be identified if caught. O'Sullivan says the question is still open.

How accurate is All the President's Men?

Shane O'Sullivan calls All the President's Men one of his favorite films, but says people shouldn't take it as a literal primer on Watergate. In his view, Woodward and Bernstein get too much credit. He says the FBI case agent and the federal prosecutor did the investigating, and leaks to the press helped The Washington Post keep the story in the news.

DOCUVIEW DEJA VIEW PICKS

Shane's picks are a Ross McElwee double bill. Sherman's March (1986) follows McElwee through the South in the path of General Sherman's march, an odyssey that Shane says opened up his mind about what a film could be. Remake (2025) is McElwee's newest film, about trying to remake Sherman's March as a fiction film and about his relationship with his son. Every guest pick is in one place.

SPONSORED BY VIRGIL FILMS ENTERTAINMENT

This episode is brought to you by Virgil Films Entertainment, distributor of Super Size Me and the Oscar-nominated Restrepo, with over 25 years of distribution experience. https://virgilfilms.com

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts

Watch on YouTube

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Support Documentary First

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn

ABOUT THE GUEST

Shane O'Sullivan

Shane O'Sullivan is an Irish filmmaker who has lived in London for 30 years. His films include RFK Must Die and Children of the Revolution. His book on the burglars, first published as Dirty Tricks: Nixon, Watergate and the CIA, is now The Watergate Burglars. He directed, produced and edited The Watergate Caper.

The film | The book | LinkedIn | Instagram | X

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED

Make Film History (BBC and BFI archive)

Nixon Library WHCA video collection

Photo of Fred Thompson and Howard Baker by a U.S. Senate photographer, CC BY-SA 3.0, via Wikimedia Commons. Photo of a Nixon White House tape recorder by Travis Wise, CC BY 2.0, via Wikimedia Commons. Photo of Roscoe Lee Browne, Peter Bonerz and others reading the Watergate tape transcripts by Marianna Diamos, Los Angeles Times, CC BY 4.0, via Wikimedia Commons.

]]>Do you think you know the Watergate story?

Most people know Watergate from All the President's Men: two reporters at The Washington Post and a president brought down. Far fewer know who the burglars were, why they went into the Democratic National Committee headquarters, or why some of the investigators still suspect the break-in was sabotaged from the inside. The Watergate Caper: Richard Nixon and the Death of the American Dream, the archival documentary from Shane O'Sullivan narrated by Harry Shearer, tells that story through the news footage, hearings, songs and movies of the Nixon era.

In Episode 289, Christian sits down with Shane O'Sullivan, an Irish filmmaker and author based in London who heads Film and Photography at Kingston School of Art. Shane explains why he thinks Woodward and Bernstein get too much credit for solving Watergate, and why, in his telling, the FBI case agent and the federal prosecutor did the real investigating. He built the film from the Nixon Library's off-air news recordings, working mostly from London.

Shane walks through how he wove movies like Medium Cool, The Conversation and The Ice Storm through the news footage and hearings, set the All the President's Men version of the burglary against real witness testimony, why Harry Shearer works as a bridge rather than a conventional narrator, and how fair use clearance counsel helped him justify long movie clips. He also lays out the questions that still hang over the break-in: the tape left on the doors, why James McCord, the Nixon campaign's own head of security, went in himself, and why anyone would take the risk when Richard Nixon was already ahead of George McGovern in the polls.

WATCH THE FILM: The Watergate Caper: Richard Nixon and the Death of the American Dream is available to rent or buy on Amazon, Apple TV, Fandango at Home and Google Play.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • What Howard Hunt told the Cuban burglars to get them on board
  • How a four-hour first cut became a 105-minute film
  • Shane's advice for filmmakers: find an archive no one has fully used

CHAPTERS

0:00 The Watergate Caper Trailer

2:49 From RFK to Nixon

7:46 All the President's Men Myth

13:49 Harry Shearer and Medium Cool

17:57 When Movies Mirrored Watergate

23:47 Archival Footage and Fair Use

30:05 Dick Cavett and Howard Baker

32:46 The 18½-Minute Gap

37:22 Was the Break-In Sabotaged?

43:56 Advice for Archival Filmmakers

48:43 Sherman's March and Remake

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

How was the Watergate break-in discovered?

A security guard found tape on the doors that kept the locks from latching. According to filmmaker Shane O'Sullivan, the guard thought little of it the first time, but when he came back later and found it again, he called the police, who went up and arrested the burglars. O'Sullivan says one of the key questions is whether the tape was left on purpose to sabotage the operation.

Was the Watergate break-in sabotaged?

Some of the investigators think it may have been. Shane O'Sullivan says FBI case agent Angelo Lano still believes James McCord or Howard Hunt made mistakes on purpose to expose Nixon. McCord, the Nixon campaign's head of security and a former head of physical security at the CIA, left tape on the doors and went in himself, knowing he would be identified if caught. O'Sullivan says the question is still open.

How accurate is All the President's Men?

Shane O'Sullivan calls All the President's Men one of his favorite films, but says people shouldn't take it as a literal primer on Watergate. In his view, Woodward and Bernstein get too much credit. He says the FBI case agent and the federal prosecutor did the investigating, and leaks to the press helped The Washington Post keep the story in the news.

DOCUVIEW DEJA VIEW PICKS

Shane's picks are a Ross McElwee double bill. Sherman's March (1986) follows McElwee through the South in the path of General Sherman's march, an odyssey that Shane says opened up his mind about what a film could be. Remake (2025) is McElwee's newest film, about trying to remake Sherman's March as a fiction film and about his relationship with his son. Every guest pick is in one place.

SPONSORED BY VIRGIL FILMS ENTERTAINMENT

This episode is brought to you by Virgil Films Entertainment, distributor of Super Size Me and the Oscar-nominated Restrepo, with over 25 years of distribution experience. https://virgilfilms.com

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts

Watch on YouTube

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Support Documentary First

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn

ABOUT THE GUEST

Shane O'Sullivan

Shane O'Sullivan is an Irish filmmaker who has lived in London for 30 years. His films include RFK Must Die and Children of the Revolution. His book on the burglars, first published as Dirty Tricks: Nixon, Watergate and the CIA, is now The Watergate Burglars. He directed, produced and edited The Watergate Caper.

The film | The book | LinkedIn | Instagram | X

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED

Make Film History (BBC and BFI archive)

Nixon Library WHCA video collection

Photo of Fred Thompson and Howard Baker by a U.S. Senate photographer, CC BY-SA 3.0, via Wikimedia Commons. Photo of a Nixon White House tape recorder by Travis Wise, CC BY 2.0, via Wikimedia Commons. Photo of Roscoe Lee Browne, Peter Bonerz and others reading the Watergate tape transcripts by Marianna Diamos, Los Angeles Times, CC BY 4.0, via Wikimedia Commons.

]]>7860f20e-07e2-4730-afc1-1a21d3d2e845Thu, 05 Nov 2026 05:00:00 -060051:35falsefull289289Doc First Podcast Trailer: The Making of Films You'll LoveDoc First Podcast Trailer: The Making of Films You'll LoveHow do documentaries actually get made, paid for and seen?

Hear it from the people who make them.

In this trailer: Jonathan de Jong (Human Forever), Ken Burns, James L. Freedman (Charles Grodin: Rebel with a Cause), Susan Lacy (Billy Joel: And So It Goes) and Nicholas Bruckman (The Price of Milk).

For people who make documentaries and people who love them. Discover how documentaries actually get made, paid for and seen with filmmaker Christian Taylor. Plus DocuView Deja View, where every guest recommends a documentary worth watching. One week, a long-form conversation about a guest's journey, projects and lessons; the next, The Deep Dive, Christian's short solo reflection on one idea from that conversation. Guests have included Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy. Christian directed the award-winning documentary The Girl Who Wore Freedom. Nearly 300 conversations. Listen Notes top 3% worldwide. 4.8 on Apple Podcasts. New episodes every week.

If you're new here, hit Follow so the next conversation finds you.

]]>How do documentaries actually get made, paid for and seen?

Hear it from the people who make them.

In this trailer: Jonathan de Jong (Human Forever), Ken Burns, James L. Freedman (Charles Grodin: Rebel with a Cause), Susan Lacy (Billy Joel: And So It Goes) and Nicholas Bruckman (The Price of Milk).

For people who make documentaries and people who love them. Discover how documentaries actually get made, paid for and seen with filmmaker Christian Taylor. Plus DocuView Deja View, where every guest recommends a documentary worth watching. One week, a long-form conversation about a guest's journey, projects and lessons; the next, The Deep Dive, Christian's short solo reflection on one idea from that conversation. Guests have included Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy. Christian directed the award-winning documentary The Girl Who Wore Freedom. Nearly 300 conversations. Listen Notes top 3% worldwide. 4.8 on Apple Podcasts. New episodes every week.

If you're new here, hit Follow so the next conversation finds you.

]]>4f3c437b-1bac-499c-8683-fd5c4aab3c3bSat, 31 Oct 2026 05:00:00 -050001:33falsetrailerEven Scorsese Had a Mentor. How Do You Find Yours?Even Scorsese Had a Mentor. How Do You Find Yours?How do you find a film mentor when you don't know anyone in the business?

Finding a film mentor with no connections can feel impossible, especially in documentary filmmaking. Documentary filmmaker James L. Freedman never used the words mentor or champion in his conversation with Christian Taylor. But listening back to Documentary First Episode 288, Christian heard the same thing again and again: door after door in his career opened because of a person. In this Deep Dive, she follows that chain of people, explains the difference between a mentor and a champion, and ends with seven places to look for a mentor in the film industry, even if you know no one.

In this Deep Dive on Documentary First Episode 288 with James L. Freedman, Christian traces how James, a longtime TV writer, found his way into documentary filmmaking. As a high school senior, he had produced Marty Glickman's late-night radio talk show on WNEW in New York. Decades later, his wife suggested he make a documentary about Glickman, and a friend he hadn't spoken to in six months called and turned out to be Lou Zamperini's next-door neighbor. When the finished film, Glickman, played the Santa Barbara Film Festival, Ari Emanuel of WME told James that Martin Scorsese should see it. The next day, James says, an email arrived: Scorsese was in, and he wanted to put it on HBO.

Christian shares the documentary storytelling lessons James brought out of decades in writers' rooms, including his belief that "every single frame, every second, should have intent behind it." He keeps a folder of first impressions, does all of his own research, finds the spine of a story first and plants the payoff early, which Christian calls documentary storytelling at its finest. She also tells the story James told her about Scorsese's editing room, where Turner Classic Movies played with the sound off, and the story Scorsese has often told about his own mentor, John Cassavetes, who saw a rough cut of Boxcar Bertha, told him he was better than that kind of movie and pushed him to make something different. Scorsese's next film was Mean Streets.

Then the money. Christian looks at how favors, donations and discounts helped James get archival footage he couldn't otherwise afford. James sees fair use as a gray area and tries to make it a darker gray. That is one filmmaker's experience, not legal advice.

Finally, Christian names the mentors and champions in her own life: Ken Burns, who taught her through his films and his MasterClass long before he sat down with her on Episodes 208 and 209; one of her best friends, Sandy Gordon, who worked locations on Rudy and was consulting producer on The Girl Who Wore Freedom; Pam Tierney, who has worked side by side with her since they were non-union actors in Chicago; and Chad Gilchrist and Armin Korsos, younger filmmakers she produces with on Five Great Lakes.

WATCH THE FILM: James's latest documentary, Charles Grodin: Rebel with a Cause, is available to rent or buy on Amazon Prime Video, Apple TV, Fandango at Home and Google Play.

FREE GUIDE: From Sitcoms to Scorsese, 37 lessons from James L. Freedman, free with your email.

DOCUVIEW DEJA VIEW: Every documentary Documentary First guests have recommended, in one place.

In this episode, Christian explores:

  • How did a party question, his wife and an old friend start James's first documentary?
  • How did Glickman get from the Santa Barbara Film Festival to Martin Scorsese and HBO?
  • What documentary editing tips did James bring out of decades in TV writers' rooms?
  • Why does planting the payoff early make for better documentary storytelling?
  • Who was Martin Scorsese's mentor, and what did he tell him about Boxcar Bertha?
  • What kinds of mentors and champions does a filmmaker need, from Ken Burns to Sandy Gordon?

CHAPTERS

0:00 One Phone Call, Then Scorsese

3:32 Mentor vs. Champion

5:59 Documentary Editing Tips

8:11 Archival Footage, Favors, Fair Use

11:14 Ken Burns and Other Teachers

14:33 Seven Places to Start Looking

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

How do you find a film mentor with no connections?

Christian Taylor suggests seven places to start: watch great documentaries; listen to people ahead of you through podcasts, interviews and classes; look at who is one or two people away from you; contact your local film office; join meetup groups, production alliances or a Women in Film chapter; volunteer on films and at festivals; and ask for one specific thing while offering something in return. She suggests picking one of the seven this week.

What is the difference between a mentor and a champion?

In this Deep Dive, Christian Taylor describes a mentor as someone who teaches you over time, and a champion as someone who uses their name or position to open a door for you. In documentary filmmaker James L. Freedman's story, Ari Emanuel didn't teach him how to make a film, but he made sure the film got to Martin Scorsese. Christian says everyone needs both kinds of people.

What did Martin Scorsese tell James L. Freedman about editing and narration?

James L. Freedman says that when he saw Martin Scorsese's editing room, Turner Classic Movies was playing with the sound off. As James tells it, Scorsese said watching pictures without sound shows you how filmmakers choose to tell their story, and that it helps his editing. James also says that when he wondered whether HBO would want a celebrity to narrate Glickman, Scorsese told him, "No, I love your narration."

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts

Watch on YouTube

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn

ABOUT THE FILMS

James L. Freedman

James L. Freedman wrote in Hollywood for more than 25 years, on shows including Coach, Zoe and Cybill. He wrote, directed and narrated three documentaries: Glickman (2013), executive produced by Martin Scorsese for HBO; Carl Laemmle (2019); and Charles Grodin: Rebel with a Cause, distributed by Virgil Films.

Website | X (the film)

The Source Episode

Charles Grodin Documentary: Comedy Star, Prison Crusader (Episode 288)

Listen | Watch

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST: THE DEEP DIVE

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


Photo of Martin Scorsese by Harald Krichel, CC BY-SA 4.0, via Wikimedia Commons.

]]>How do you find a film mentor when you don't know anyone in the business?

Finding a film mentor with no connections can feel impossible, especially in documentary filmmaking. Documentary filmmaker James L. Freedman never used the words mentor or champion in his conversation with Christian Taylor. But listening back to Documentary First Episode 288, Christian heard the same thing again and again: door after door in his career opened because of a person. In this Deep Dive, she follows that chain of people, explains the difference between a mentor and a champion, and ends with seven places to look for a mentor in the film industry, even if you know no one.

In this Deep Dive on Documentary First Episode 288 with James L. Freedman, Christian traces how James, a longtime TV writer, found his way into documentary filmmaking. As a high school senior, he had produced Marty Glickman's late-night radio talk show on WNEW in New York. Decades later, his wife suggested he make a documentary about Glickman, and a friend he hadn't spoken to in six months called and turned out to be Lou Zamperini's next-door neighbor. When the finished film, Glickman, played the Santa Barbara Film Festival, Ari Emanuel of WME told James that Martin Scorsese should see it. The next day, James says, an email arrived: Scorsese was in, and he wanted to put it on HBO.

Christian shares the documentary storytelling lessons James brought out of decades in writers' rooms, including his belief that "every single frame, every second, should have intent behind it." He keeps a folder of first impressions, does all of his own research, finds the spine of a story first and plants the payoff early, which Christian calls documentary storytelling at its finest. She also tells the story James told her about Scorsese's editing room, where Turner Classic Movies played with the sound off, and the story Scorsese has often told about his own mentor, John Cassavetes, who saw a rough cut of Boxcar Bertha, told him he was better than that kind of movie and pushed him to make something different. Scorsese's next film was Mean Streets.

Then the money. Christian looks at how favors, donations and discounts helped James get archival footage he couldn't otherwise afford. James sees fair use as a gray area and tries to make it a darker gray. That is one filmmaker's experience, not legal advice.

Finally, Christian names the mentors and champions in her own life: Ken Burns, who taught her through his films and his MasterClass long before he sat down with her on Episodes 208 and 209; one of her best friends, Sandy Gordon, who worked locations on Rudy and was consulting producer on The Girl Who Wore Freedom; Pam Tierney, who has worked side by side with her since they were non-union actors in Chicago; and Chad Gilchrist and Armin Korsos, younger filmmakers she produces with on Five Great Lakes.

WATCH THE FILM: James's latest documentary, Charles Grodin: Rebel with a Cause, is available to rent or buy on Amazon Prime Video, Apple TV, Fandango at Home and Google Play.

FREE GUIDE: From Sitcoms to Scorsese, 37 lessons from James L. Freedman, free with your email.

DOCUVIEW DEJA VIEW: Every documentary Documentary First guests have recommended, in one place.

In this episode, Christian explores:

  • How did a party question, his wife and an old friend start James's first documentary?
  • How did Glickman get from the Santa Barbara Film Festival to Martin Scorsese and HBO?
  • What documentary editing tips did James bring out of decades in TV writers' rooms?
  • Why does planting the payoff early make for better documentary storytelling?
  • Who was Martin Scorsese's mentor, and what did he tell him about Boxcar Bertha?
  • What kinds of mentors and champions does a filmmaker need, from Ken Burns to Sandy Gordon?

CHAPTERS

0:00 One Phone Call, Then Scorsese

3:32 Mentor vs. Champion

5:59 Documentary Editing Tips

8:11 Archival Footage, Favors, Fair Use

11:14 Ken Burns and Other Teachers

14:33 Seven Places to Start Looking

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

How do you find a film mentor with no connections?

Christian Taylor suggests seven places to start: watch great documentaries; listen to people ahead of you through podcasts, interviews and classes; look at who is one or two people away from you; contact your local film office; join meetup groups, production alliances or a Women in Film chapter; volunteer on films and at festivals; and ask for one specific thing while offering something in return. She suggests picking one of the seven this week.

What is the difference between a mentor and a champion?

In this Deep Dive, Christian Taylor describes a mentor as someone who teaches you over time, and a champion as someone who uses their name or position to open a door for you. In documentary filmmaker James L. Freedman's story, Ari Emanuel didn't teach him how to make a film, but he made sure the film got to Martin Scorsese. Christian says everyone needs both kinds of people.

What did Martin Scorsese tell James L. Freedman about editing and narration?

James L. Freedman says that when he saw Martin Scorsese's editing room, Turner Classic Movies was playing with the sound off. As James tells it, Scorsese said watching pictures without sound shows you how filmmakers choose to tell their story, and that it helps his editing. James also says that when he wondered whether HBO would want a celebrity to narrate Glickman, Scorsese told him, "No, I love your narration."

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts

Watch on YouTube

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn

ABOUT THE FILMS

James L. Freedman

James L. Freedman wrote in Hollywood for more than 25 years, on shows including Coach, Zoe and Cybill. He wrote, directed and narrated three documentaries: Glickman (2013), executive produced by Martin Scorsese for HBO; Carl Laemmle (2019); and Charles Grodin: Rebel with a Cause, distributed by Virgil Films.

Website | X (the film)

The Source Episode

Charles Grodin Documentary: Comedy Star, Prison Crusader (Episode 288)

Listen | Watch

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST: THE DEEP DIVE

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


Photo of Martin Scorsese by Harald Krichel, CC BY-SA 4.0, via Wikimedia Commons.

]]>d4d4ea2e-7e14-4df4-9169-cc7c0b378befThu, 29 Oct 2026 16:00:00 -050018:32falsefullCharles Grodin Documentary: Comedy Star, Prison CrusaderCharles Grodin Documentary: Comedy Star, Prison CrusaderWho was Charles Grodin when the cameras weren't rolling?

Most people know Charles Grodin from Midnight Run, The Heartbreak Kid or Beethoven. Far fewer know that he spent the last 20 years of his life working to get women out of prison, and visited them every week. Charles Grodin: Rebel with a Cause, the Charles Grodin documentary from James L. Freedman, tells both stories.

In Episode 288, Christian sits down with James L. Freedman, a longtime sitcom writer who came to documentary filmmaking late. A question at a party about the best job he ever had led to his first film, Glickman, which Martin Scorsese executive produced for HBO. For his third, Grodin's widow, Elissa Grodin, sent him seven boxes of archives, about a hundred hours of material, and James did all of the research himself.

James explains why he wouldn't make "an hour of him being funny" with the activism saved for the end. Instead he seeded Grodin's conscience through the whole film: the class president who helped Black students in Pittsburgh, the 1969 Simon & Garfunkel television special that lost its sponsor, and the CNBC show that turned to social issues. James quotes Grodin's own line: "You don't want me to picket the governor's office, you want me to be in the governor's office."

He also walks through how he hunted down archival footage, how an independent filmmaker got Robert De Niro, Steve Martin, Martin Short and Elaine May on camera, and how he keeps a budget down as, in his words, "one guy making this movie."

WATCH THE FILM: Charles Grodin: Rebel with a Cause is available to rent or buy on Amazon Prime Video, Apple TV, Fandango at Home and Google Play.

James's film Carl Laemmle airs on TCM on Friday, October 23, at 8:00 p.m. ET.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • Why James writes down his first impression of everything he likes, so he remembers how it first hit him after he's gone numb to it
  • Why he finds a story's spine first, and how he knew his opening and closing when he saw them
  • How the stars said yes, and why famous interviewees want to know who else is in the film
  • How Elaine May changed her mind about an interview, and what she said after seeing the film
  • How a Johnny Carson story became a Charles Bronson sequence, and why every second needs intent
  • Where to find archival footage when none seems to exist
  • How fair use, donated clips, grants and paid festival screenings fit into a documentary budget
  • What surprised him most about Grodin: the weekly prison visits, and the father Grodin lost at 17

CHAPTERS

0:00 Midnight Run's Other Side

6:43 TV Writer Turned Filmmaker

12:24 Beginning, Middle and End

18:23 Getting De Niro and Elaine May

26:51 Charles Grodin on Johnny Carson

29:35 The Archival Footage Hunt

36:42 Narrating Your Own Documentary

39:43 Fair Use, Licensing and Costs

48:15 Scorsese's TCM Editing Trick

50:19 Weekly Prison Visits

53:54 Carl Laemmle Saved 300+ Refugees

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

How did a small documentary get Robert De Niro, Steve Martin and Martin Short?

Director James L. Freedman says his first two films helped: Elissa Grodin watched both before giving him her husband's story, then connected him with Robert De Niro and Steve Martin. He cold-called Martin Short. Freedman believes they agreed because they loved Charles Grodin, and that stars want to see other recognizable names in a film so they know they aren't being exploited.

What did Charles Grodin do for prison reform?

For the last 20 years of his life, Charles Grodin worked to get women out of prison, most of them mothers of color with young children who had been caught in police stings. Director James L. Freedman says Grodin visited them every week, and a friend who saw him after those visits said he would come away a broken man, crying. As Freedman tells it, Grodin believed he could do more inside the governor's office than picketing outside it.

How do independent documentary filmmakers keep costs down?

James L. Freedman doesn't pay himself for his time, so he does the slow work himself: all of his own research and his own calls to studios. He asks rights holders to donate clips and photos, and when he has to pay, he asks for a discount, reminding them he is one filmmaker, not a corporation. When something unavoidable costs more, like a hotel suite for an interview, he makes the money back by spending less elsewhere.

How do you find archival footage for a documentary?

Director James L. Freedman does his own research and calls it a scavenger hunt. With no footage of Lovers and Other Strangers, the Broadway play Charles Grodin directed, he Googled every name in the Playbill and found a scene on The Ed Sullivan Show. For Glickman, he slowed a two-second newsreel shot to four seconds, and a snowy VHS tape led him to an old Paramount newsreel on nitrate film that came back crystal clear six months later.

DOCUVIEW DEJA VIEW PICKS

James's pick: Carl Laemmle (2019), his own second film, about the founder of Universal Studios, who helped more than 300 refugees escape Nazi Germany. It's on Amazon now. James says Glickman, his first film, comes to Fandango at Home by year's end.

Need a doc for date night? Browse every guest pick on our DocuView Deja View page.

SPONSORED BY VIRGIL FILMS ENTERTAINMENT

This episode is brought to you by Virgil Films Entertainment, distributor of Super Size Me and the Oscar-nominated Restrepo, with over 25 years of distribution experience. https://virgilfilms.com

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/6e27d4

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn

ABOUT THE GUEST

James L. Freedman

Writer, director and narrator, Charles Grodin: Rebel with a Cause

James L. Freedman wrote in Hollywood for more than 25 years, on shows including Coach, Cybill, where he was also a co-producer, and Zoe, Duncan, Jack & Jane. Charles Grodin: Rebel with a Cause, his third film, is distributed by Virgil Films.

Website: https://charlesgrodinfilm.com

X (the film): https://x.com/ChuckGrodinFilm

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>Who was Charles Grodin when the cameras weren't rolling?

Most people know Charles Grodin from Midnight Run, The Heartbreak Kid or Beethoven. Far fewer know that he spent the last 20 years of his life working to get women out of prison, and visited them every week. Charles Grodin: Rebel with a Cause, the Charles Grodin documentary from James L. Freedman, tells both stories.

In Episode 288, Christian sits down with James L. Freedman, a longtime sitcom writer who came to documentary filmmaking late. A question at a party about the best job he ever had led to his first film, Glickman, which Martin Scorsese executive produced for HBO. For his third, Grodin's widow, Elissa Grodin, sent him seven boxes of archives, about a hundred hours of material, and James did all of the research himself.

James explains why he wouldn't make "an hour of him being funny" with the activism saved for the end. Instead he seeded Grodin's conscience through the whole film: the class president who helped Black students in Pittsburgh, the 1969 Simon & Garfunkel television special that lost its sponsor, and the CNBC show that turned to social issues. James quotes Grodin's own line: "You don't want me to picket the governor's office, you want me to be in the governor's office."

He also walks through how he hunted down archival footage, how an independent filmmaker got Robert De Niro, Steve Martin, Martin Short and Elaine May on camera, and how he keeps a budget down as, in his words, "one guy making this movie."

WATCH THE FILM: Charles Grodin: Rebel with a Cause is available to rent or buy on Amazon Prime Video, Apple TV, Fandango at Home and Google Play.

James's film Carl Laemmle airs on TCM on Friday, October 23, at 8:00 p.m. ET.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • Why James writes down his first impression of everything he likes, so he remembers how it first hit him after he's gone numb to it
  • Why he finds a story's spine first, and how he knew his opening and closing when he saw them
  • How the stars said yes, and why famous interviewees want to know who else is in the film
  • How Elaine May changed her mind about an interview, and what she said after seeing the film
  • How a Johnny Carson story became a Charles Bronson sequence, and why every second needs intent
  • Where to find archival footage when none seems to exist
  • How fair use, donated clips, grants and paid festival screenings fit into a documentary budget
  • What surprised him most about Grodin: the weekly prison visits, and the father Grodin lost at 17

CHAPTERS

0:00 Midnight Run's Other Side

6:43 TV Writer Turned Filmmaker

12:24 Beginning, Middle and End

18:23 Getting De Niro and Elaine May

26:51 Charles Grodin on Johnny Carson

29:35 The Archival Footage Hunt

36:42 Narrating Your Own Documentary

39:43 Fair Use, Licensing and Costs

48:15 Scorsese's TCM Editing Trick

50:19 Weekly Prison Visits

53:54 Carl Laemmle Saved 300+ Refugees

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

How did a small documentary get Robert De Niro, Steve Martin and Martin Short?

Director James L. Freedman says his first two films helped: Elissa Grodin watched both before giving him her husband's story, then connected him with Robert De Niro and Steve Martin. He cold-called Martin Short. Freedman believes they agreed because they loved Charles Grodin, and that stars want to see other recognizable names in a film so they know they aren't being exploited.

What did Charles Grodin do for prison reform?

For the last 20 years of his life, Charles Grodin worked to get women out of prison, most of them mothers of color with young children who had been caught in police stings. Director James L. Freedman says Grodin visited them every week, and a friend who saw him after those visits said he would come away a broken man, crying. As Freedman tells it, Grodin believed he could do more inside the governor's office than picketing outside it.

How do independent documentary filmmakers keep costs down?

James L. Freedman doesn't pay himself for his time, so he does the slow work himself: all of his own research and his own calls to studios. He asks rights holders to donate clips and photos, and when he has to pay, he asks for a discount, reminding them he is one filmmaker, not a corporation. When something unavoidable costs more, like a hotel suite for an interview, he makes the money back by spending less elsewhere.

How do you find archival footage for a documentary?

Director James L. Freedman does his own research and calls it a scavenger hunt. With no footage of Lovers and Other Strangers, the Broadway play Charles Grodin directed, he Googled every name in the Playbill and found a scene on The Ed Sullivan Show. For Glickman, he slowed a two-second newsreel shot to four seconds, and a snowy VHS tape led him to an old Paramount newsreel on nitrate film that came back crystal clear six months later.

DOCUVIEW DEJA VIEW PICKS

James's pick: Carl Laemmle (2019), his own second film, about the founder of Universal Studios, who helped more than 300 refugees escape Nazi Germany. It's on Amazon now. James says Glickman, his first film, comes to Fandango at Home by year's end.

Need a doc for date night? Browse every guest pick on our DocuView Deja View page.

SPONSORED BY VIRGIL FILMS ENTERTAINMENT

This episode is brought to you by Virgil Films Entertainment, distributor of Super Size Me and the Oscar-nominated Restrepo, with over 25 years of distribution experience. https://virgilfilms.com

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/6e27d4

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn

ABOUT THE GUEST

James L. Freedman

Writer, director and narrator, Charles Grodin: Rebel with a Cause

James L. Freedman wrote in Hollywood for more than 25 years, on shows including Coach, Cybill, where he was also a co-producer, and Zoe, Duncan, Jack & Jane. Charles Grodin: Rebel with a Cause, his third film, is distributed by Virgil Films.

Website: https://charlesgrodinfilm.com

X (the film): https://x.com/ChuckGrodinFilm

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>bec1f17f-9407-436c-9718-76510e8ba25bThu, 22 Oct 2026 05:00:00 -050057:29falsefull288288The Velveteen Rabbit and Old Home Movies: What Is Real?The Velveteen Rabbit and Old Home Movies: What Is Real?What does The Velveteen Rabbit, a 1922 children's book about a stuffed toy, have to do with old home movies and AI?

In Margery Williams' classic story, an old toy called the Skin Horse tells a stuffed rabbit that being real isn't about how you are made. It is something that happens to you when you are loved for a long time. In this episode of Documentary First: The Deep Dive, Christian Taylor follows that idea from the nursery to old home movies, the scratchy 8mm reels families shot for decades, and asks what it means to keep things real now that tools can make footage of things that never happened.

In this Deep Dive on Documentary First Episode 287 with Phil Maher, founder of Stockfilm, a home movie archive with over 200,000 clips from the 1930s to the 1980s, Christian picks up on something Phil told her. Stockfilm keeps the scratches and the dust, because they make the footage feel original and real. That sent her back to Christmas Day, 1986, in her family's home in Arlington, Virginia. She was 17. Her little sister Annie, then three, had been given The Velveteen Rabbit as a book and cassette, read by Meryl Streep with George Winston playing the music underneath. Annie fell asleep in her lap. Christian kept listening, had never heard the story before, and found herself crying. It became her favorite story to read to children.

From there, Christian brings the Skin Horse's idea back to Phil's archive. Phil has seen hundreds of Christmases on those reels and thinks of himself as a steward of these people's lives. Christian looks at why that kind of real matters more now that AI can show a face that never existed or a moment in history nobody was there to see, and at Phil's clear line: the footage itself stays 100 percent real, because it is the historical record. She shares why she has spent weeks setting up a NAS, network-attached storage, at home: she doesn't want to lose years of work, and the RAID drive holding her film The Girl Who Wore Freedom is failing. She also talks about why so many people want to own the album or the CD again instead of licensing it. She closes with practical steps for anyone with a box of old reels in the closet, and with the end of the rabbit's story, where his spots still show through.

In this episode, Christian explores:

  • Hearing The Velveteen Rabbit for the first time on Christmas Day, 1986
  • Why, once you are real, shabbiness doesn't matter
  • Why imperfection can be what makes an audience believe a film
  • Why Christian is setting up a NAS while the RAID drive holding her film is failing
  • Owning a movie or an album versus licensing it
  • What Phil sees again and again on old reels: people dancing together

CHAPTERS

0:00 The Velveteen Rabbit, Christmas 1986

4:21 What Is Real? The Skin Horse

6:34 Scratches, Dust and AI Footage

9:40 Why Physical Media Still Matters

13:50 The Splendid New Bunny

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What is the Skin Horse's quote about being real in The Velveteen Rabbit?

In Margery Williams' 1922 book, the old Skin Horse tells the Rabbit that "Real isn't how you are made" and that "It's a thing that happens to you." A toy becomes real when a child loves it for a long time, not just to play with. By then most of its hair has been loved off and it is shabby, but, as the Skin Horse says, once you are real you can't be ugly, except to people who don't understand.

Why do filmmakers leave the scratches and dust in old home movies?

Phil Maher, who founded Stockfilm, keeps his footage as close to the original as he can, scratches included. He says those marks make footage feel original and real, and show that this is how it looked. In this Deep Dive, Christian Taylor argues the imperfection is sometimes the very thing that lets an audience believe a film, and suggests filmmakers leave the scratches in when they tell the truth.

How do you preserve old home movies and film reels?

Start by not throwing them out. Phil Maher of Stockfilm says that is how many family memories get lost: reels sit in a closet in a format nobody knows how to play, until someone tosses them. Get them digitized, but keep the originals, and keep them away from heat and humidity. Then store copies in more than one place. Phil keeps three: on-site, in the cloud, and off-site with no internet connection.

Who narrated the 1985 recording of The Velveteen Rabbit?

The 1985 Rabbit Ears Productions recording of The Velveteen Rabbit was narrated by Meryl Streep, with music by pianist George Winston. It was sold as a book and cassette. Christian Taylor first heard it on Christmas Day, 1986, when her little sister Annie, then three, was given the set as a gift. Annie fell asleep, but Christian, then 17, kept listening and has read the story to children ever since.

Should filmmakers tell audiences when they use AI to recreate history?

Yes, according to Phil Maher, founder of the home movie archive Stockfilm. He uses AI to date and search footage, but he keeps the footage itself 100 percent real, because it is the historical record. If a filmmaker uses AI to recreate a moment in history, he says, the audience should be told what is real and what isn't. Christian Taylor agrees, and adds that viewers will likely trust the film more for it.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/6bcd99

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE TOPIC

The Velveteen Rabbit

The Velveteen Rabbit, or How Toys Become Real, was written by Margery Williams and first published in 1922 with illustrations by William Nicholson. It is in the public domain in the United States and free to read through Project Gutenberg.

The 1985 Recording

Rabbit Ears Productions released The Velveteen Rabbit in 1985, narrated by Meryl Streep with music by pianist George Winston. It was sold as a book and cassette.

Phil Maher and Stockfilm

Phil Maher founded Stockfilm in 2015, after digitizing his grandfather's 8mm home movies. Stockfilm licenses real 8mm and Super 8 home movie footage from the 1930s through the 1980s, keeps every physical reel after scanning, and uses AI to search and catalog the archive, never to alter the footage.

Website: https://stockfilm.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/philmaher/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/stockfilm

X: https://x.com/stockfilmcom

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@StockFilmFootage

The Source Episode

Archival Footage: Why Use Home Movies?, Documentary First Episode 287 with Phil Maher

Listen: https://pod.fo/e/699995

Watch: https://youtu.be/pQ7OXqY2av4

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED

The Velveteen Rabbit by Margery Williams (Project Gutenberg): https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/11757

The Velveteen Rabbit, Rabbit Ears Productions recording, 1985 (Wikipedia): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Velveteen_Rabbit_(album)

]]>What does The Velveteen Rabbit, a 1922 children's book about a stuffed toy, have to do with old home movies and AI?

In Margery Williams' classic story, an old toy called the Skin Horse tells a stuffed rabbit that being real isn't about how you are made. It is something that happens to you when you are loved for a long time. In this episode of Documentary First: The Deep Dive, Christian Taylor follows that idea from the nursery to old home movies, the scratchy 8mm reels families shot for decades, and asks what it means to keep things real now that tools can make footage of things that never happened.

In this Deep Dive on Documentary First Episode 287 with Phil Maher, founder of Stockfilm, a home movie archive with over 200,000 clips from the 1930s to the 1980s, Christian picks up on something Phil told her. Stockfilm keeps the scratches and the dust, because they make the footage feel original and real. That sent her back to Christmas Day, 1986, in her family's home in Arlington, Virginia. She was 17. Her little sister Annie, then three, had been given The Velveteen Rabbit as a book and cassette, read by Meryl Streep with George Winston playing the music underneath. Annie fell asleep in her lap. Christian kept listening, had never heard the story before, and found herself crying. It became her favorite story to read to children.

From there, Christian brings the Skin Horse's idea back to Phil's archive. Phil has seen hundreds of Christmases on those reels and thinks of himself as a steward of these people's lives. Christian looks at why that kind of real matters more now that AI can show a face that never existed or a moment in history nobody was there to see, and at Phil's clear line: the footage itself stays 100 percent real, because it is the historical record. She shares why she has spent weeks setting up a NAS, network-attached storage, at home: she doesn't want to lose years of work, and the RAID drive holding her film The Girl Who Wore Freedom is failing. She also talks about why so many people want to own the album or the CD again instead of licensing it. She closes with practical steps for anyone with a box of old reels in the closet, and with the end of the rabbit's story, where his spots still show through.

In this episode, Christian explores:

  • Hearing The Velveteen Rabbit for the first time on Christmas Day, 1986
  • Why, once you are real, shabbiness doesn't matter
  • Why imperfection can be what makes an audience believe a film
  • Why Christian is setting up a NAS while the RAID drive holding her film is failing
  • Owning a movie or an album versus licensing it
  • What Phil sees again and again on old reels: people dancing together

CHAPTERS

0:00 The Velveteen Rabbit, Christmas 1986

4:21 What Is Real? The Skin Horse

6:34 Scratches, Dust and AI Footage

9:40 Why Physical Media Still Matters

13:50 The Splendid New Bunny

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What is the Skin Horse's quote about being real in The Velveteen Rabbit?

In Margery Williams' 1922 book, the old Skin Horse tells the Rabbit that "Real isn't how you are made" and that "It's a thing that happens to you." A toy becomes real when a child loves it for a long time, not just to play with. By then most of its hair has been loved off and it is shabby, but, as the Skin Horse says, once you are real you can't be ugly, except to people who don't understand.

Why do filmmakers leave the scratches and dust in old home movies?

Phil Maher, who founded Stockfilm, keeps his footage as close to the original as he can, scratches included. He says those marks make footage feel original and real, and show that this is how it looked. In this Deep Dive, Christian Taylor argues the imperfection is sometimes the very thing that lets an audience believe a film, and suggests filmmakers leave the scratches in when they tell the truth.

How do you preserve old home movies and film reels?

Start by not throwing them out. Phil Maher of Stockfilm says that is how many family memories get lost: reels sit in a closet in a format nobody knows how to play, until someone tosses them. Get them digitized, but keep the originals, and keep them away from heat and humidity. Then store copies in more than one place. Phil keeps three: on-site, in the cloud, and off-site with no internet connection.

Who narrated the 1985 recording of The Velveteen Rabbit?

The 1985 Rabbit Ears Productions recording of The Velveteen Rabbit was narrated by Meryl Streep, with music by pianist George Winston. It was sold as a book and cassette. Christian Taylor first heard it on Christmas Day, 1986, when her little sister Annie, then three, was given the set as a gift. Annie fell asleep, but Christian, then 17, kept listening and has read the story to children ever since.

Should filmmakers tell audiences when they use AI to recreate history?

Yes, according to Phil Maher, founder of the home movie archive Stockfilm. He uses AI to date and search footage, but he keeps the footage itself 100 percent real, because it is the historical record. If a filmmaker uses AI to recreate a moment in history, he says, the audience should be told what is real and what isn't. Christian Taylor agrees, and adds that viewers will likely trust the film more for it.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/6bcd99

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE TOPIC

The Velveteen Rabbit

The Velveteen Rabbit, or How Toys Become Real, was written by Margery Williams and first published in 1922 with illustrations by William Nicholson. It is in the public domain in the United States and free to read through Project Gutenberg.

The 1985 Recording

Rabbit Ears Productions released The Velveteen Rabbit in 1985, narrated by Meryl Streep with music by pianist George Winston. It was sold as a book and cassette.

Phil Maher and Stockfilm

Phil Maher founded Stockfilm in 2015, after digitizing his grandfather's 8mm home movies. Stockfilm licenses real 8mm and Super 8 home movie footage from the 1930s through the 1980s, keeps every physical reel after scanning, and uses AI to search and catalog the archive, never to alter the footage.

Website: https://stockfilm.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/philmaher/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/stockfilm

X: https://x.com/stockfilmcom

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@StockFilmFootage

The Source Episode

Archival Footage: Why Use Home Movies?, Documentary First Episode 287 with Phil Maher

Listen: https://pod.fo/e/699995

Watch: https://youtu.be/pQ7OXqY2av4

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED

The Velveteen Rabbit by Margery Williams (Project Gutenberg): https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/11757

The Velveteen Rabbit, Rabbit Ears Productions recording, 1985 (Wikipedia): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Velveteen_Rabbit_(album)

]]>8ca30665-99e9-4c9f-aa5f-f41695978a13Thu, 15 Oct 2026 05:00:00 -050016:28falsefullArchival Footage: Why Use Home Movies?Archival Footage: Why Use Home Movies?What happens to a family's home movies when no one knows what to do with them?

Phil Maher was a software engineer looking for a sense of purpose when he started watching his grandfather's family reels and saw his father and his brothers, a big Irish Catholic family in Chicago. He kept going. Some families sold him their reels; others gave them so their family would be remembered. "Everyone's lost to history except the few elites that make it through history and are remembered," Phil says, and he wanted to be "a steward to these people's lives," down to their vacation trips, Halloween costumes and Christmases. Those home movies, the 8mm and Super 8 reels families shot from the 1930s through the 1980s, are archival footage that adds texture and emotion without narration having to explain it.

In Episode 287, Christian sits down with Phil Maher, founder of Stockfilm, a home movie archive with over 200,000 clips. Since 2015, Phil has built a library of archival footage that filmmakers can search and license. Stockfilm keeps every scratch and flaw on purpose, and it keeps the physical reel after every scan.

Phil walks through how a reel becomes a licensable 4K clip: cleaning, splicing, scanning, and dating footage with no label by reading the cars and clothes in the frame. He explains vinegar syndrome and why one decaying reel can damage the reels stored beside it. Christian and Phil take on footage houses that charge for public domain Signal Corps film and draw a firm line on AI. Stockfilm uses it to search and catalog the archive, never to change a frame. As Phil puts it, "We can prove every frame that we have, because we have it." Christian also shares 1947 home movies of Carentan, Normandy, shot by the father of Yves Marchais, whose story is at the center of her film in production, Heroes of Carentan.

The conversation turns to physical film versus cloud storage, and Christian brings up the Nine PBS case. In March 2026, the St. Louis public television station lost access to more than 50 terabytes of its archive, 70 years of its history, when its cloud storage vendor cut off access. It backs up Phil's point that the cloud can go away, because you do not really own it.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How one family's 8mm reels became a searchable archive
  • Why you should keep the physical reel after digitizing it
  • Why physical media belongs in a real backup plan

CHAPTERS

0:00 A Grandfather's 8mm Became Stockfilm

9:28 Racing to Save Fading Film

13:18 How Do You Date Unlabeled Reels?

18:38 What Is Vinegar Syndrome?

20:56 Is Public Domain Footage Free?

23:36 Why Home Movies Move Audiences

27:18 Smoking, Dancing, Forgetting to Smile

32:34 AI in Documentary Filmmaking

35:02 Cloud or Physical Media?

39:08 Donating Your Family Archive

42:44 Dawson City: Frozen Time

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Why use home movies as archival footage in a documentary?

Home movies capture ordinary life the way it actually looked, scratches and all. Stockfilm founder Phil Maher says filmmakers turn to them when they want texture and emotion, something real that doesn't need narration to explain it. In his words, "A few seconds of just showing someone a place and time can really just get people into that spot and really create that moment that connects with the audience."

Where can I find free archival footage for a documentary?

Much U.S. government footage, including World War II Signal Corps film, is free through the National Archives and the Library of Congress. Christian Taylor points out that commercial footage houses often charge download and license fees for that same public domain material. Doing the research yourself takes longer, but it can save an independent film real money.

How do you date old home movie footage with no label?

Start with the clues inside the frame. Phil Maher of Stockfilm explains that cars are one of the best markers, because a shot can't predate the model year of a car that appears in it. Clothing narrows it further. Today AI image recognition helps suggest dates and keywords, but the footage itself is never altered.

What is vinegar syndrome in old film?

Vinegar syndrome is the breakdown of acetate safety film, the stock used for most 8mm and Super 8 home movies. As it degrades, the film gives off a vinegar smell, warps, shrinks and dries out. Phil Maher warns it can spread almost like a mold to reels stored nearby, so separate affected film and keep it away from heat and humidity.

Should documentaries label AI-generated historical footage?

Yes, according to Phil Maher. Stockfilm uses AI to search and catalog its archive but never to alter the footage, because the footage is the historical record. If a filmmaker uses AI to recreate a historical battle or event, Maher says the audience needs to be told it is AI-created, a fictional rendition of what may or may not have happened.

DOCUVIEW DÉJÀ VU PICKS

Phil's pick: Dawson City: Frozen Time (2016), directed by Bill Morrison, built from more than 500 silent-era reels dug out of the Yukon permafrost in 1978.

SPONSORED BY VIRGIL FILMS ENTERTAINMENT

This episode is brought to you by Virgil Films Entertainment, distributor of Super Size Me and the Oscar-nominated Restrepo, with over 25 years of distribution experience. https://virgilfilms.com

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/699995

Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/pQ7OXqY2av4

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Phil Maher

Founder, Stockfilm

Phil Maher holds a computer science degree from Illinois State University and spent his career as a software engineer. He founded Stockfilm in 2015 and has spent more than a decade collecting, scanning and cataloging family reels.

Email: phil@stockfilm.com

Website: https://stockfilm.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/philmaher/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/stockfilm

X: https://x.com/stockfilmcom

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@StockFilmFootage

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>What happens to a family's home movies when no one knows what to do with them?

Phil Maher was a software engineer looking for a sense of purpose when he started watching his grandfather's family reels and saw his father and his brothers, a big Irish Catholic family in Chicago. He kept going. Some families sold him their reels; others gave them so their family would be remembered. "Everyone's lost to history except the few elites that make it through history and are remembered," Phil says, and he wanted to be "a steward to these people's lives," down to their vacation trips, Halloween costumes and Christmases. Those home movies, the 8mm and Super 8 reels families shot from the 1930s through the 1980s, are archival footage that adds texture and emotion without narration having to explain it.

In Episode 287, Christian sits down with Phil Maher, founder of Stockfilm, a home movie archive with over 200,000 clips. Since 2015, Phil has built a library of archival footage that filmmakers can search and license. Stockfilm keeps every scratch and flaw on purpose, and it keeps the physical reel after every scan.

Phil walks through how a reel becomes a licensable 4K clip: cleaning, splicing, scanning, and dating footage with no label by reading the cars and clothes in the frame. He explains vinegar syndrome and why one decaying reel can damage the reels stored beside it. Christian and Phil take on footage houses that charge for public domain Signal Corps film and draw a firm line on AI. Stockfilm uses it to search and catalog the archive, never to change a frame. As Phil puts it, "We can prove every frame that we have, because we have it." Christian also shares 1947 home movies of Carentan, Normandy, shot by the father of Yves Marchais, whose story is at the center of her film in production, Heroes of Carentan.

The conversation turns to physical film versus cloud storage, and Christian brings up the Nine PBS case. In March 2026, the St. Louis public television station lost access to more than 50 terabytes of its archive, 70 years of its history, when its cloud storage vendor cut off access. It backs up Phil's point that the cloud can go away, because you do not really own it.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How one family's 8mm reels became a searchable archive
  • Why you should keep the physical reel after digitizing it
  • Why physical media belongs in a real backup plan

CHAPTERS

0:00 A Grandfather's 8mm Became Stockfilm

9:28 Racing to Save Fading Film

13:18 How Do You Date Unlabeled Reels?

18:38 What Is Vinegar Syndrome?

20:56 Is Public Domain Footage Free?

23:36 Why Home Movies Move Audiences

27:18 Smoking, Dancing, Forgetting to Smile

32:34 AI in Documentary Filmmaking

35:02 Cloud or Physical Media?

39:08 Donating Your Family Archive

42:44 Dawson City: Frozen Time

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Why use home movies as archival footage in a documentary?

Home movies capture ordinary life the way it actually looked, scratches and all. Stockfilm founder Phil Maher says filmmakers turn to them when they want texture and emotion, something real that doesn't need narration to explain it. In his words, "A few seconds of just showing someone a place and time can really just get people into that spot and really create that moment that connects with the audience."

Where can I find free archival footage for a documentary?

Much U.S. government footage, including World War II Signal Corps film, is free through the National Archives and the Library of Congress. Christian Taylor points out that commercial footage houses often charge download and license fees for that same public domain material. Doing the research yourself takes longer, but it can save an independent film real money.

How do you date old home movie footage with no label?

Start with the clues inside the frame. Phil Maher of Stockfilm explains that cars are one of the best markers, because a shot can't predate the model year of a car that appears in it. Clothing narrows it further. Today AI image recognition helps suggest dates and keywords, but the footage itself is never altered.

What is vinegar syndrome in old film?

Vinegar syndrome is the breakdown of acetate safety film, the stock used for most 8mm and Super 8 home movies. As it degrades, the film gives off a vinegar smell, warps, shrinks and dries out. Phil Maher warns it can spread almost like a mold to reels stored nearby, so separate affected film and keep it away from heat and humidity.

Should documentaries label AI-generated historical footage?

Yes, according to Phil Maher. Stockfilm uses AI to search and catalog its archive but never to alter the footage, because the footage is the historical record. If a filmmaker uses AI to recreate a historical battle or event, Maher says the audience needs to be told it is AI-created, a fictional rendition of what may or may not have happened.

DOCUVIEW DÉJÀ VU PICKS

Phil's pick: Dawson City: Frozen Time (2016), directed by Bill Morrison, built from more than 500 silent-era reels dug out of the Yukon permafrost in 1978.

SPONSORED BY VIRGIL FILMS ENTERTAINMENT

This episode is brought to you by Virgil Films Entertainment, distributor of Super Size Me and the Oscar-nominated Restrepo, with over 25 years of distribution experience. https://virgilfilms.com

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/699995

Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/pQ7OXqY2av4

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Phil Maher

Founder, Stockfilm

Phil Maher holds a computer science degree from Illinois State University and spent his career as a software engineer. He founded Stockfilm in 2015 and has spent more than a decade collecting, scanning and cataloging family reels.

Email: phil@stockfilm.com

Website: https://stockfilm.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/philmaher/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/stockfilm

X: https://x.com/stockfilmcom

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@StockFilmFootage

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>90a32106-b3bc-4090-86f7-359569576f6fThu, 08 Oct 2026 05:00:00 -050049:24falsefull287287How Do You Get a Documentary Made? Ask the Woman Who Co-Runs RKOHow Do You Get a Documentary Made? Ask the Woman Who Co-Runs RKODo you have a documentary, or do you have a Wikipedia entry?

Somebody decides whether your documentary gets made. Sophia Dilley is one of those people. She runs Concord Originals, the division behind Stax: Soulsville U.S.A. on HBO, and she is Co-President of RKO, which Concord bought in June 2025 along with more than 5,000 titles including King Kong, Citizen Kane and It's a Wonderful Life. In this episode she gives away the three questions she asks before her team commits to anything.

In Episode 286, Christian sits down with Sophia Dilley, Executive Vice President of Concord Originals and Co-President of RKO, to talk about how a project gets chosen, how to reach out to someone far above you, and how music rights for film work when the budget you have is the only budget there is.

The spine of the conversation is a question Dilley asks before her team commits to anything: is this a Wikipedia story we're telling? If the whole thing is already available in twelve seconds of searching, there may not be a film in it. Around that sit her two other threshold questions, a working answer to why the documentary business feels impossible right now, and the plainest reassurance in the episode. "It's scary," she says. "It's scary for everybody." Along the way: a punk band that played CBGB's, a production designer father who left for set at four forty-five in the morning, Roger Deakins as a case study in how to write to someone you admire, and the difference between distribution rights and derivative rights, which is the thing almost everyone (including Christian!) got wrong about the RKO deal. If you have ever been told that music rights for film are impossible on an independent budget, she has a different answer.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • The three questions Sophia Dilley asks before committing to any story
  • How to tell whether you have a film or a Wikipedia entry
  • What to say to a music company when the budget you have is the only budget there is
  • Why a rejection is usually about the marketplace rather than about your film
  • How to open a door with someone you admire without being, in her words, a scary, creepy fan
  • What it looks like inside a company that generates most of its projects out of its own catalog

CHAPTERS

0:00 What Concord Actually Bought With RKO

5:34 From CBGB's to Running a Studio Division

11:42 Reaching Out to People Above You

16:32 Why Distribution Is Scary for Everybody

21:26 Who Are You Really Competing With?

26:02 Music Rights for Film: Sync and Publishing

29:49 Why a Doc Takes Five Years

34:54 How Does She Decide What Gets Made?

41:44 Women, Allies, and Your Replacement

46:05 What if You Can't Afford the Song?

50:05 Closing Argument and DocuView Deja View

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

How do you get music rights for a documentary?

You need permission from more than one owner. The song belongs to a publisher and the specific recording belongs to a label, so most documentaries need both a sync license and a master use license. On Stax: Soulsville U.S.A., that meant clearing more than thirty artists, multiple publishers and several estates. Concord Originals EVP Sophia Dilley says the first step is acknowledging you need those rights before you build the film around them.

What if I can't afford to license a song for my film?

Call anyway, and be honest about the budget. Sophia Dilley advises independent filmmakers to say who they are, name what the film was made for, show the actual scene the song would sit under, and ask directly for help. "Behind every door at every music company, there are real people," she says. A studio with a real budget cannot use that approach. A genuine independent often can.

How long does it take to make a music documentary?

Longer than most filmmakers expect. Sophia Dilley of Concord Originals puts the average at five years, at least. Stax: Soulsville U.S.A. began in 2018, when a colleague walked into her office with the story, and premiered on HBO in May 2024. Much of that time goes to music rights, estates and publishers rather than to production, because every stakeholder connected to the music has to be brought on side first.

Who owns RKO now?

Concord Originals acquired RKO Pictures in June 2025, but the deal is narrower than it sounds. Distribution rights to the classic RKO library remain with Turner. What Concord bought are the derivative rights, meaning remakes, sequels, prequels, story and stage rights to more than 5,000 titles the studio produced in-house. Sophia Dilley serves as Co-President of RKO, which continues to operate under Concord Originals.

DOCUVIEW DEJA VU PICKS

Sophia Dilley's picks:

  • New York Doll (2005), directed by Greg Whiteley. A deep cut about Arthur "Killer" Kane of the New York Dolls and his search for his own history. Dilley notes that Whiteley went on to make Cheer, and the warmth is already here.
  • Science Fair (2018), directed by Cristina Costantini and Darren Foster. She saw it at SXSW, where it won the Audience Award. Teenagers at the international science fair, and, in her words, so much magic in following a real human story.

SPONSORED BY

This episode is brought to you by Virgil Films Entertainment. Over 25 years of distribution experience, from Super Size Me and the Oscar-nominated Restrepo to Forks Over Knives and Speed is Expensive. If you are a filmmaker having trouble with distribution, talk to Virgil.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen on any podcast app: https://pod.fo/e/5ffe38

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

Support the show: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT

Documentary First on all platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Sophia Dilley is Executive Vice President of Concord Originals and Co-President of RKO. Concord hired her in 2018 to build a content strategy, and in 2021 she launched Concord Originals, the company's film and television division. Her father was a production designer, so she grew up on movie sets watching what the work actually costs. Before film, she thought she would go into music: piano, violin, voice lessons, and a punk band in high school that played CBGB's in New York.

ABOUT CONCORD ORIGINALS

Concord Originals is the film and television arm of Concord, developing screen stories out of one of the largest independent music and theatrical catalogs in the world. Most of its projects are self-generated, which Dilley describes as the division's whole remit: take what is already under the roof and find a new life for it. Because the catalog is the source, music rights for film sit at the center of nearly every project the division takes on.

Recent and upcoming work discussed in this episode:


ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED

  • Soulsville U.S.A.: The Story of Stax Records by Rob Bowman, the book behind the film: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2775862
  • Documentary First Episode 277, Teddy Cannon on music rights and licensing, the other side of this conversation: https://pod.fo/e/413f3a

]]>Do you have a documentary, or do you have a Wikipedia entry?

Somebody decides whether your documentary gets made. Sophia Dilley is one of those people. She runs Concord Originals, the division behind Stax: Soulsville U.S.A. on HBO, and she is Co-President of RKO, which Concord bought in June 2025 along with more than 5,000 titles including King Kong, Citizen Kane and It's a Wonderful Life. In this episode she gives away the three questions she asks before her team commits to anything.

In Episode 286, Christian sits down with Sophia Dilley, Executive Vice President of Concord Originals and Co-President of RKO, to talk about how a project gets chosen, how to reach out to someone far above you, and how music rights for film work when the budget you have is the only budget there is.

The spine of the conversation is a question Dilley asks before her team commits to anything: is this a Wikipedia story we're telling? If the whole thing is already available in twelve seconds of searching, there may not be a film in it. Around that sit her two other threshold questions, a working answer to why the documentary business feels impossible right now, and the plainest reassurance in the episode. "It's scary," she says. "It's scary for everybody." Along the way: a punk band that played CBGB's, a production designer father who left for set at four forty-five in the morning, Roger Deakins as a case study in how to write to someone you admire, and the difference between distribution rights and derivative rights, which is the thing almost everyone (including Christian!) got wrong about the RKO deal. If you have ever been told that music rights for film are impossible on an independent budget, she has a different answer.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • The three questions Sophia Dilley asks before committing to any story
  • How to tell whether you have a film or a Wikipedia entry
  • What to say to a music company when the budget you have is the only budget there is
  • Why a rejection is usually about the marketplace rather than about your film
  • How to open a door with someone you admire without being, in her words, a scary, creepy fan
  • What it looks like inside a company that generates most of its projects out of its own catalog

CHAPTERS

0:00 What Concord Actually Bought With RKO

5:34 From CBGB's to Running a Studio Division

11:42 Reaching Out to People Above You

16:32 Why Distribution Is Scary for Everybody

21:26 Who Are You Really Competing With?

26:02 Music Rights for Film: Sync and Publishing

29:49 Why a Doc Takes Five Years

34:54 How Does She Decide What Gets Made?

41:44 Women, Allies, and Your Replacement

46:05 What if You Can't Afford the Song?

50:05 Closing Argument and DocuView Deja View

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

How do you get music rights for a documentary?

You need permission from more than one owner. The song belongs to a publisher and the specific recording belongs to a label, so most documentaries need both a sync license and a master use license. On Stax: Soulsville U.S.A., that meant clearing more than thirty artists, multiple publishers and several estates. Concord Originals EVP Sophia Dilley says the first step is acknowledging you need those rights before you build the film around them.

What if I can't afford to license a song for my film?

Call anyway, and be honest about the budget. Sophia Dilley advises independent filmmakers to say who they are, name what the film was made for, show the actual scene the song would sit under, and ask directly for help. "Behind every door at every music company, there are real people," she says. A studio with a real budget cannot use that approach. A genuine independent often can.

How long does it take to make a music documentary?

Longer than most filmmakers expect. Sophia Dilley of Concord Originals puts the average at five years, at least. Stax: Soulsville U.S.A. began in 2018, when a colleague walked into her office with the story, and premiered on HBO in May 2024. Much of that time goes to music rights, estates and publishers rather than to production, because every stakeholder connected to the music has to be brought on side first.

Who owns RKO now?

Concord Originals acquired RKO Pictures in June 2025, but the deal is narrower than it sounds. Distribution rights to the classic RKO library remain with Turner. What Concord bought are the derivative rights, meaning remakes, sequels, prequels, story and stage rights to more than 5,000 titles the studio produced in-house. Sophia Dilley serves as Co-President of RKO, which continues to operate under Concord Originals.

DOCUVIEW DEJA VU PICKS

Sophia Dilley's picks:

  • New York Doll (2005), directed by Greg Whiteley. A deep cut about Arthur "Killer" Kane of the New York Dolls and his search for his own history. Dilley notes that Whiteley went on to make Cheer, and the warmth is already here.
  • Science Fair (2018), directed by Cristina Costantini and Darren Foster. She saw it at SXSW, where it won the Audience Award. Teenagers at the international science fair, and, in her words, so much magic in following a real human story.

SPONSORED BY

This episode is brought to you by Virgil Films Entertainment. Over 25 years of distribution experience, from Super Size Me and the Oscar-nominated Restrepo to Forks Over Knives and Speed is Expensive. If you are a filmmaker having trouble with distribution, talk to Virgil.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen on any podcast app: https://pod.fo/e/5ffe38

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

Support the show: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT

Documentary First on all platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Sophia Dilley is Executive Vice President of Concord Originals and Co-President of RKO. Concord hired her in 2018 to build a content strategy, and in 2021 she launched Concord Originals, the company's film and television division. Her father was a production designer, so she grew up on movie sets watching what the work actually costs. Before film, she thought she would go into music: piano, violin, voice lessons, and a punk band in high school that played CBGB's in New York.

ABOUT CONCORD ORIGINALS

Concord Originals is the film and television arm of Concord, developing screen stories out of one of the largest independent music and theatrical catalogs in the world. Most of its projects are self-generated, which Dilley describes as the division's whole remit: take what is already under the roof and find a new life for it. Because the catalog is the source, music rights for film sit at the center of nearly every project the division takes on.

Recent and upcoming work discussed in this episode:


ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED

  • Soulsville U.S.A.: The Story of Stax Records by Rob Bowman, the book behind the film: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2775862
  • Documentary First Episode 277, Teddy Cannon on music rights and licensing, the other side of this conversation: https://pod.fo/e/413f3a

]]>cc7a5973-9c55-4406-b774-80ea0dbd6c7bThu, 10 Sep 2026 16:30:00 -050053:30falsefull286286Beyond Banners: How to Make a Documentary With No Film SchoolBeyond Banners: How to Make a Documentary With No Film SchoolWho finishes your film if you can't?

Andre N. Jackson had never made a film. He had twenty years in technology and security, an idea that arrived while he was sitting in a barber's chair, and no way into the industry. He finished the film anyway, and he came on the show with three lessons for other filmmakers. Two more came out while we were talking.

In Episode 285, Christian sits down with first-time filmmaker Andre N. Jackson to talk about "Beyond Banners," his film about the basketball program at Gwynn Park High School in Prince George's County, Maryland. Over a twenty-year run the team reached twelve state championships and won more than any high school in the state. The film starts there and ends up somewhere else entirely.

Andre puts it plainly: "I actually learned about filmmaking through making a film." The spine of the conversation is what it takes to make a documentary when nothing is set up in your favor. Andre leaned on the research and analysis skills he built as an intelligence analyst, cold-called a Hall of Fame coach, funded it through a fiscal sponsor, used AI as a second brain, and kept going through two heart attacks in three days, the second while he was still in the hospital. Along the way the film became a story about stewardship, about the people who stayed, and about what the commercialization of youth sports is doing to community public schools.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How an idea that arrived in a barber's chair became a finished film with no film school behind it
  • What a fiscal sponsor is, and how the Southern Documentary Fund made donors want to give
  • What two heart attacks in three days taught him about succession, and what he changed the week he got out

THE FIVE LESSONS

  • Lean into your superpowers
  • Get comfortable taking calculated risks
  • Get creative about filling gaps
  • Plan for your absence
  • Use AI as a second brain

CHAPTERS

0:00 No Film School, No Connections

3:16 How Do You Fund a First Documentary?

6:09 When a Team Becomes a Town

11:53 The Cost of Commercializing Youth Sports

18:58 Planning for Your Own Absence

24:37 AI as a Second Brain

29:16 Cold Calling a Hall of Fame Coach

33:45 Why the Collective Should Matter

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

How do you make a documentary with no film school?

Lean into the skills you already have and hire for the ones you do not. Andre N. Jackson spent twenty years as an intelligence analyst, so he built his film on research and relationship building, the two things he was already good at. Then he deliberately recruited crew members who covered his gaps in craft and experience. He learned filmmaking by making a film, not before making one.

How do you fund a documentary with no industry money?

A fiscal sponsor is the most common route. It is a 501(c)(3) that sits between your project and your donors, so contributions become tax deductible and donors have a reason to say yes. Andre used the Southern Documentary Fund. You apply, you are accepted, you onboard, and then you can offer donors a tax break for backing your film. He combined that with personal funds and direct fundraising.

How do you get well-known people to be in your documentary?

Cold call them, and be specific about who you both know. Andre landed Hall of Fame coach Tubby Smith by reaching out directly and naming a mutual connection to establish trust. He got Wake Forest star Randolph Childress through a warm introduction from a Gwynn Park alumnus. The pattern is the same either way: ask, and use the relationships your relationships already have.

What happens to your documentary if you cannot finish it?

Plan for your absence before you need to. After two heart attacks during production, Andre started documenting what had only ever lived in his head and briefed his executive producer and his producer on the next steps, so the film could be completed whether or not he was there. Contingency planning in film usually means backup drives. It should also mean succession.

Can AI help you make your first documentary?

Andre used it three ways: to learn the end-to-end production process he never went to film school for, to generate an animated reenactment of a co-protagonist who had died and left almost no footage behind, and as a second brain that challenged his assumptions and pressure-tested his interview questions. He was clear it supplemented human mentorship rather than replacing it.

DOCUVIEW DÉJÀ VU PICKS

  • "Undefeated" (2011), directed by Daniel Lindsay and T.J. Martin. Winner of the Academy Award for Best Documentary Feature. Andre's direct inspiration for making "Beyond Banners."
  • "The Last Dance" (2020), ESPN and Netflix. Andre is a Michael Jordan fan and names it as the film that came before Undefeated for him.

SPONSORED BY

This episode is brought to you by Virgil Films Entertainment, distributor of Super Size Me and the Oscar-nominated Restrepo, with over 25 years of distribution experience. Virgil Films Entertainment

ABOUT THE GUEST

Andre N. Jackson is a first-time documentary filmmaker based in Fairfax, Virginia, who wrote and directed "Beyond Banners." He spent twenty years in technology and security, including work as an intelligence analyst on cybersecurity and terrorism issues, and is a 1998 graduate of Gwynn Park High School, the subject of his film.

ABOUT THE FILM

"Beyond Banners" is directed by Andre N. Jackson and follows the basketball program at Gwynn Park High School in Prince George's County, Maryland. In the words of the film's own logline: a son returns to his alma mater to carry his father's coaching legacy, only to discover that the winning tradition he grew up in was built for a world that no longer exists.

Website: https://beyondbannersdocumentary.com

Instagram: @beyondbannersdocumentary

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED

  • Southern Documentary Fund, fiscal sponsorship: https://southerndocumentaryfund.org
  • James Hawkins, book on Gwynn Park's 1968 to 1970 state championship three-peat
  • Marquis Smalls, writer, director and producer, Street Dreams Films, Brooklyn, New York: https://streetdreamsfilms.com
  • Higgsfield, the AI tool used for the animated reenactment

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/562e4c

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

]]>Who finishes your film if you can't?

Andre N. Jackson had never made a film. He had twenty years in technology and security, an idea that arrived while he was sitting in a barber's chair, and no way into the industry. He finished the film anyway, and he came on the show with three lessons for other filmmakers. Two more came out while we were talking.

In Episode 285, Christian sits down with first-time filmmaker Andre N. Jackson to talk about "Beyond Banners," his film about the basketball program at Gwynn Park High School in Prince George's County, Maryland. Over a twenty-year run the team reached twelve state championships and won more than any high school in the state. The film starts there and ends up somewhere else entirely.

Andre puts it plainly: "I actually learned about filmmaking through making a film." The spine of the conversation is what it takes to make a documentary when nothing is set up in your favor. Andre leaned on the research and analysis skills he built as an intelligence analyst, cold-called a Hall of Fame coach, funded it through a fiscal sponsor, used AI as a second brain, and kept going through two heart attacks in three days, the second while he was still in the hospital. Along the way the film became a story about stewardship, about the people who stayed, and about what the commercialization of youth sports is doing to community public schools.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How an idea that arrived in a barber's chair became a finished film with no film school behind it
  • What a fiscal sponsor is, and how the Southern Documentary Fund made donors want to give
  • What two heart attacks in three days taught him about succession, and what he changed the week he got out

THE FIVE LESSONS

  • Lean into your superpowers
  • Get comfortable taking calculated risks
  • Get creative about filling gaps
  • Plan for your absence
  • Use AI as a second brain

CHAPTERS

0:00 No Film School, No Connections

3:16 How Do You Fund a First Documentary?

6:09 When a Team Becomes a Town

11:53 The Cost of Commercializing Youth Sports

18:58 Planning for Your Own Absence

24:37 AI as a Second Brain

29:16 Cold Calling a Hall of Fame Coach

33:45 Why the Collective Should Matter

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

How do you make a documentary with no film school?

Lean into the skills you already have and hire for the ones you do not. Andre N. Jackson spent twenty years as an intelligence analyst, so he built his film on research and relationship building, the two things he was already good at. Then he deliberately recruited crew members who covered his gaps in craft and experience. He learned filmmaking by making a film, not before making one.

How do you fund a documentary with no industry money?

A fiscal sponsor is the most common route. It is a 501(c)(3) that sits between your project and your donors, so contributions become tax deductible and donors have a reason to say yes. Andre used the Southern Documentary Fund. You apply, you are accepted, you onboard, and then you can offer donors a tax break for backing your film. He combined that with personal funds and direct fundraising.

How do you get well-known people to be in your documentary?

Cold call them, and be specific about who you both know. Andre landed Hall of Fame coach Tubby Smith by reaching out directly and naming a mutual connection to establish trust. He got Wake Forest star Randolph Childress through a warm introduction from a Gwynn Park alumnus. The pattern is the same either way: ask, and use the relationships your relationships already have.

What happens to your documentary if you cannot finish it?

Plan for your absence before you need to. After two heart attacks during production, Andre started documenting what had only ever lived in his head and briefed his executive producer and his producer on the next steps, so the film could be completed whether or not he was there. Contingency planning in film usually means backup drives. It should also mean succession.

Can AI help you make your first documentary?

Andre used it three ways: to learn the end-to-end production process he never went to film school for, to generate an animated reenactment of a co-protagonist who had died and left almost no footage behind, and as a second brain that challenged his assumptions and pressure-tested his interview questions. He was clear it supplemented human mentorship rather than replacing it.

DOCUVIEW DÉJÀ VU PICKS

  • "Undefeated" (2011), directed by Daniel Lindsay and T.J. Martin. Winner of the Academy Award for Best Documentary Feature. Andre's direct inspiration for making "Beyond Banners."
  • "The Last Dance" (2020), ESPN and Netflix. Andre is a Michael Jordan fan and names it as the film that came before Undefeated for him.

SPONSORED BY

This episode is brought to you by Virgil Films Entertainment, distributor of Super Size Me and the Oscar-nominated Restrepo, with over 25 years of distribution experience. Virgil Films Entertainment

ABOUT THE GUEST

Andre N. Jackson is a first-time documentary filmmaker based in Fairfax, Virginia, who wrote and directed "Beyond Banners." He spent twenty years in technology and security, including work as an intelligence analyst on cybersecurity and terrorism issues, and is a 1998 graduate of Gwynn Park High School, the subject of his film.

ABOUT THE FILM

"Beyond Banners" is directed by Andre N. Jackson and follows the basketball program at Gwynn Park High School in Prince George's County, Maryland. In the words of the film's own logline: a son returns to his alma mater to carry his father's coaching legacy, only to discover that the winning tradition he grew up in was built for a world that no longer exists.

Website: https://beyondbannersdocumentary.com

Instagram: @beyondbannersdocumentary

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED

  • Southern Documentary Fund, fiscal sponsorship: https://southerndocumentaryfund.org
  • James Hawkins, book on Gwynn Park's 1968 to 1970 state championship three-peat
  • Marquis Smalls, writer, director and producer, Street Dreams Films, Brooklyn, New York: https://streetdreamsfilms.com
  • Higgsfield, the AI tool used for the animated reenactment

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/562e4c

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

]]>844ccc89-f93b-40e0-8f70-2b2f3b7f7fbfFri, 21 Aug 2026 00:15:00 -050040:58falsefull285285What Dementia Taught Me About Building an AudienceWhat Dementia Taught Me About Building an AudienceWhen did your audience stop being people and become a number?

Most independent films and podcasts do not fail because the work is bad. They fail because no one ever felt like they belonged to them. This Deep Dive is about how to build an audience for your documentary before it is ever released, and the one ingredient that decides whether people stay with what you make.

In this Deep Dive on Documentary First Episode 284 with Dutch filmmaker Jonathan de Jong, host Christian Taylor takes the idea at the heart of his film “Human Forever,” the most-watched human interest documentary in Dutch cinema history, and follows it somewhere unexpected: the same thing that makes dementia care humane is the thing that built his audience.

The spine of the episode is a single word, belonging. Jonathan says the most dangerous part of dementia is not the diagnosis, it is the feeling of not belonging. Christian tests that idea against her own father’s move into memory care this month, then turns it on filmmakers through Martin Buber’s 1923 book “I and Thou” and the difference between treating a person as an “It” and meeting them as a “Thou.” The through line: build belonging before you build buzz.

In this episode, Christian explores:

  • Why the feeling of not belonging is the most dangerous part of dementia, in Jonathan de Jong’s own words
  • The one ingredient that decides whether people stay with what you make
  • How Jonathan built an audience for “Human Forever” before a single frame was shot
  • Why building a movement beat marketing a film
  • What belonging looks like in one real room, on her father’s move day
  • Martin Buber’s “I and Thou” and the difference between an It and a Thou
  • How filmmaking goes wrong the moment your audience becomes a number
  • Why you invite people to belong instead of reaching for them
  • The question to ask about anyone you put in front of your camera
  • What a documentary about dementia can teach any filmmaker about reach

CHAPTERS

0:00 The Secret That Keeps an Audience

2:04 The Most Dangerous Feeling

5:16 The People and the Plan

7:53 Build Belonging Before Buzz

11:26 Meet Them, Don’t Aim

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

How do you build an audience for a documentary before it is released? You build belonging first. Jonathan de Jong built a movement around “Human Forever” before the film existed, a real person at the center and bestselling books out in the world, so audiences already felt part of something by release. The lesson for any filmmaker: make people feel they belong to what you are doing long before you ask them to watch, buy, or share it.

What is the best way to market a documentary with no budget? Stop marketing and start including. Invite people into the mission instead of aiming promotion at them. When an audience feels seen and part of the story, they carry it for you. Belonging spreads a film further than any ad spend, which is why Jonathan filled theaters for a film about dementia without a marketing war chest.

What is Martin Buber’s “I and Thou” about? “I and Thou,” published in 1923, describes two ways of relating to another person. You can treat someone as an “It,” a thing to manage, a number, a problem to handle. Or you can meet them as a “Thou,” a whole person, encountered directly. Buber argued that real life is found in the “Thou,” in genuine meeting rather than use.

Why do people stop watching independent films and podcasts? Because they can feel when a creator is aiming something at them instead of making something for them. The moment an audience becomes a view count or a click to convert, the work loses the sense that it was made for real people. People stay when they feel met and included, and they drift when they feel handled.

ABOUT THE FILMS AND TOPIC

“Human Forever” is a documentary directed by Dutch filmmaker Jonathan de Jong through SUPER7EVEN Productions. It follows the young dementia-care nurse Teun Toebes as he lives among and travels the world alongside people with dementia, and it became the most-watched human interest documentary in Dutch cinema history. The film is one piece of a larger movement that also includes Teun’s bestselling books and the Article 25 Foundation he co-founded.

Jonathan de Jong is a Dutch filmmaker and author who builds socially focused stories, and the guest on Documentary First Episode 284. SUPER7EVEN Productions: https://supersevenproductions.com. Film: https://human-forever.com.

Teun Toebes is a nurse, humanitarian activist, and bestselling author who has spent years living inside dementia wards around the world. https://www.teuntoebes.com.

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED

  • “Human Forever” (film), Jonathan de Jong, SUPER7EVEN Productions: https://human-forever.com
  • SUPER7EVEN Productions: https://supersevenproductions.com
  • Teun Toebes: https://www.teuntoebes.com
  • Martin Buber, “I and Thou” (Ich und Du), 1923

Documentary First Episode 284 with Jonathan de Jong: https://pod.fo/e/50bde1

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/53fafc Watch on YouTube: @DocumentaryFirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

]]>When did your audience stop being people and become a number?

Most independent films and podcasts do not fail because the work is bad. They fail because no one ever felt like they belonged to them. This Deep Dive is about how to build an audience for your documentary before it is ever released, and the one ingredient that decides whether people stay with what you make.

In this Deep Dive on Documentary First Episode 284 with Dutch filmmaker Jonathan de Jong, host Christian Taylor takes the idea at the heart of his film “Human Forever,” the most-watched human interest documentary in Dutch cinema history, and follows it somewhere unexpected: the same thing that makes dementia care humane is the thing that built his audience.

The spine of the episode is a single word, belonging. Jonathan says the most dangerous part of dementia is not the diagnosis, it is the feeling of not belonging. Christian tests that idea against her own father’s move into memory care this month, then turns it on filmmakers through Martin Buber’s 1923 book “I and Thou” and the difference between treating a person as an “It” and meeting them as a “Thou.” The through line: build belonging before you build buzz.

In this episode, Christian explores:

  • Why the feeling of not belonging is the most dangerous part of dementia, in Jonathan de Jong’s own words
  • The one ingredient that decides whether people stay with what you make
  • How Jonathan built an audience for “Human Forever” before a single frame was shot
  • Why building a movement beat marketing a film
  • What belonging looks like in one real room, on her father’s move day
  • Martin Buber’s “I and Thou” and the difference between an It and a Thou
  • How filmmaking goes wrong the moment your audience becomes a number
  • Why you invite people to belong instead of reaching for them
  • The question to ask about anyone you put in front of your camera
  • What a documentary about dementia can teach any filmmaker about reach

CHAPTERS

0:00 The Secret That Keeps an Audience

2:04 The Most Dangerous Feeling

5:16 The People and the Plan

7:53 Build Belonging Before Buzz

11:26 Meet Them, Don’t Aim

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

How do you build an audience for a documentary before it is released? You build belonging first. Jonathan de Jong built a movement around “Human Forever” before the film existed, a real person at the center and bestselling books out in the world, so audiences already felt part of something by release. The lesson for any filmmaker: make people feel they belong to what you are doing long before you ask them to watch, buy, or share it.

What is the best way to market a documentary with no budget? Stop marketing and start including. Invite people into the mission instead of aiming promotion at them. When an audience feels seen and part of the story, they carry it for you. Belonging spreads a film further than any ad spend, which is why Jonathan filled theaters for a film about dementia without a marketing war chest.

What is Martin Buber’s “I and Thou” about? “I and Thou,” published in 1923, describes two ways of relating to another person. You can treat someone as an “It,” a thing to manage, a number, a problem to handle. Or you can meet them as a “Thou,” a whole person, encountered directly. Buber argued that real life is found in the “Thou,” in genuine meeting rather than use.

Why do people stop watching independent films and podcasts? Because they can feel when a creator is aiming something at them instead of making something for them. The moment an audience becomes a view count or a click to convert, the work loses the sense that it was made for real people. People stay when they feel met and included, and they drift when they feel handled.

ABOUT THE FILMS AND TOPIC

“Human Forever” is a documentary directed by Dutch filmmaker Jonathan de Jong through SUPER7EVEN Productions. It follows the young dementia-care nurse Teun Toebes as he lives among and travels the world alongside people with dementia, and it became the most-watched human interest documentary in Dutch cinema history. The film is one piece of a larger movement that also includes Teun’s bestselling books and the Article 25 Foundation he co-founded.

Jonathan de Jong is a Dutch filmmaker and author who builds socially focused stories, and the guest on Documentary First Episode 284. SUPER7EVEN Productions: https://supersevenproductions.com. Film: https://human-forever.com.

Teun Toebes is a nurse, humanitarian activist, and bestselling author who has spent years living inside dementia wards around the world. https://www.teuntoebes.com.

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED

  • “Human Forever” (film), Jonathan de Jong, SUPER7EVEN Productions: https://human-forever.com
  • SUPER7EVEN Productions: https://supersevenproductions.com
  • Teun Toebes: https://www.teuntoebes.com
  • Martin Buber, “I and Thou” (Ich und Du), 1923

Documentary First Episode 284 with Jonathan de Jong: https://pod.fo/e/50bde1

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/53fafc Watch on YouTube: @DocumentaryFirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

]]>cbb1c425-6807-47ad-9cb1-3b4efd3b4c44Thu, 13 Aug 2026 05:00:00 -050013:35falsefullHow to Fund a Documentary Without the IndustryHow to Fund a Documentary Without the IndustryHow do you fund a documentary when the whole industry says no?

How do you fund a documentary without film funds, grants, or a commissioning broadcaster, and still reach a huge audience? Dutch filmmaker Jonathan de Jong did exactly that with Human Forever, the most-watched human interest documentary in Dutch cinema history. The government pulled his funding two and a half years into production, and he still finished the film, built a movement, and put it in cinemas around the world.

In Episode 284 of Documentary First, Christian Taylor sits down with Jonathan de Jong, director of Human Forever and founder of SUPER7EVEN Productions, to talk about how independent filmmakers actually fund, build an audience for, get access for, and produce a documentary that people see.

Jonathan's whole approach starts from one idea: build the audience before the film exists. He grew a following through a bestselling book, The Housemates, a touring theater show, and his protagonist, the young nurse Teun Toebes, before the movie ever premiered. He funds outside the traditional market by partnering with mission-aligned organizations, he earns fly-on-the-wall access by investing years of unhurried time, and he made a hard subject impossible to look away from. In his words, “we made dementia sexy.”

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • Why Jonathan approaches every film as a product, not only a passion project
  • How partnering with mission-aligned organizations can both fund and distribute your film
  • The “be Switzerland” method for directing a subject to get honest, real reactions
  • How to keep a film earning and touring years after its release
  • Why treating a serious subject with warmth beats treating it as only serious
  • What the record-breaking success of Human Forever teaches about impact over views

CHAPTERS

0:00 Breaking In Without Film School

5:06 Finding a Story Worth Telling

7:24 Build the Audience Before Release

12:21 When the Funding Fell Through

15:18 You Can't Buy Happiness

20:33 What Moldova Taught Him

26:47 Making the Camera Invisible

30:30 Directing a Neutral Protagonist

37:17 How Do You Get Access?

42:28 Where Does the Money Come From?

47:38 He Made Dementia Sexy

Frequently Asked Questions

How do you fund a documentary without grants or film funds?

Partner with mission-aligned organizations. Jonathan de Jong funds his films by teaming with social organizations, foundations, and local and national governments that care about the subject. Each contributes a smaller amount, and together they add up to a full budget. Because those partners also have large audiences, they become the film's first ambassadors, so the same partnership that funds the film also helps get it seen.

How do you get access to film inside hospitals or care facilities?

Invest time and build trust before the camera rolls. Jonathan spent years present without filming, and left the camera in the room so people grew used to it. Family members had to sign consent, and because his protagonist Teun Toebes was a trusted figure in dementia care, facilities welcomed the crew. Access came from relationships and patience, not from official fixers.

How do you build an audience for a documentary before it comes out?

Start years early and grow the audience alongside the film. Jonathan built a following through a bestselling book, a touring theater show, and social media, and he turned his protagonist into a recognized voice in the field. By the time Human Forever premiered, the audience and a network of ambassadors already existed, so the film became, in his words, the cherry on top.

How do you produce a documentary in multiple countries?

Work through the local community, not official fixers. Jonathan connects with people already working in the subject area, who bring in local governments and organizations to arrange permits and logistics. He keeps a small, lean crew that can move fast, and he builds a network of ambassadors in each country. That is how he filmed across eleven countries during a pandemic.

DocuView Déjà Vu

Jonathan's documentary pick is Searching for Sugar Man, which he calls one of the best documentaries ever made and a reminder of what the power of storytelling can do.

Sponsored by Virgil Films Entertainment

This episode is brought to you by Virgil Films Entertainment. With over 25 years of distribution experience, Virgil Films helps filmmakers get their work in front of audiences on every major platform. Learn more at https://www.virgilfilms.com/.

About the Guest

Jonathan de Jong is a Dutch documentary filmmaker and the founder of SUPER7EVEN Productions. He directs socially driven films that reach big audiences, and he is best known for Human Forever, the most-watched human interest documentary in Dutch cinema history. Website: https://supersevenproductions.com

SUPER7EVEN Productions is Jonathan de Jong's Netherlands-based company, making impact-driven documentaries on pressing social issues. Human Forever premiered around a 2023 G20 summit and is now used in more than 40 universities, including Yale and Oxford, with a US broadcast coming to PBS. Jonathan's next films explore strong communities and addiction.

About Human Forever and Teun Toebes

Human Forever follows Teun Toebes, a young care ethicist dubbed the “Greta Thunberg of healthcare,” who moved into the closed ward of a nursing home at 21 and traveled across four continents and eleven countries to ask how we can give people living with dementia a better quality of life. Teun's book, The Housemates, was a number one bestseller in Denmark and has been translated into English, German, Italian, and Arabic. Website: https://www.teuntoebes.com.

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned

  • Human Forever (film): https://www.teuntoebes.com/human-forever
  • SUPER7EVEN Productions: https://supersevenproductions.com
  • Teun Toebes: https://www.teuntoebes.com
  • The Housemates, book by Teun Toebes https://septemberpublishing.org/product/the-housemates-pb/

Connect With the Guests

  • Jonathan de Jong: Instagram https://www.instagram.com/7onathandejong, LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-de-jong-07b670b
  • Teun Toebes: Instagram https://www.instagram.com/teuntoebes, LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/teuntoebes

Listen and Follow Documentary First

  • Listen to this episode: https://pod.fo/e/50bde1
  • YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

Support the Show


Connect


]]>How do you fund a documentary when the whole industry says no?

How do you fund a documentary without film funds, grants, or a commissioning broadcaster, and still reach a huge audience? Dutch filmmaker Jonathan de Jong did exactly that with Human Forever, the most-watched human interest documentary in Dutch cinema history. The government pulled his funding two and a half years into production, and he still finished the film, built a movement, and put it in cinemas around the world.

In Episode 284 of Documentary First, Christian Taylor sits down with Jonathan de Jong, director of Human Forever and founder of SUPER7EVEN Productions, to talk about how independent filmmakers actually fund, build an audience for, get access for, and produce a documentary that people see.

Jonathan's whole approach starts from one idea: build the audience before the film exists. He grew a following through a bestselling book, The Housemates, a touring theater show, and his protagonist, the young nurse Teun Toebes, before the movie ever premiered. He funds outside the traditional market by partnering with mission-aligned organizations, he earns fly-on-the-wall access by investing years of unhurried time, and he made a hard subject impossible to look away from. In his words, “we made dementia sexy.”

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • Why Jonathan approaches every film as a product, not only a passion project
  • How partnering with mission-aligned organizations can both fund and distribute your film
  • The “be Switzerland” method for directing a subject to get honest, real reactions
  • How to keep a film earning and touring years after its release
  • Why treating a serious subject with warmth beats treating it as only serious
  • What the record-breaking success of Human Forever teaches about impact over views

CHAPTERS

0:00 Breaking In Without Film School

5:06 Finding a Story Worth Telling

7:24 Build the Audience Before Release

12:21 When the Funding Fell Through

15:18 You Can't Buy Happiness

20:33 What Moldova Taught Him

26:47 Making the Camera Invisible

30:30 Directing a Neutral Protagonist

37:17 How Do You Get Access?

42:28 Where Does the Money Come From?

47:38 He Made Dementia Sexy

Frequently Asked Questions

How do you fund a documentary without grants or film funds?

Partner with mission-aligned organizations. Jonathan de Jong funds his films by teaming with social organizations, foundations, and local and national governments that care about the subject. Each contributes a smaller amount, and together they add up to a full budget. Because those partners also have large audiences, they become the film's first ambassadors, so the same partnership that funds the film also helps get it seen.

How do you get access to film inside hospitals or care facilities?

Invest time and build trust before the camera rolls. Jonathan spent years present without filming, and left the camera in the room so people grew used to it. Family members had to sign consent, and because his protagonist Teun Toebes was a trusted figure in dementia care, facilities welcomed the crew. Access came from relationships and patience, not from official fixers.

How do you build an audience for a documentary before it comes out?

Start years early and grow the audience alongside the film. Jonathan built a following through a bestselling book, a touring theater show, and social media, and he turned his protagonist into a recognized voice in the field. By the time Human Forever premiered, the audience and a network of ambassadors already existed, so the film became, in his words, the cherry on top.

How do you produce a documentary in multiple countries?

Work through the local community, not official fixers. Jonathan connects with people already working in the subject area, who bring in local governments and organizations to arrange permits and logistics. He keeps a small, lean crew that can move fast, and he builds a network of ambassadors in each country. That is how he filmed across eleven countries during a pandemic.

DocuView Déjà Vu

Jonathan's documentary pick is Searching for Sugar Man, which he calls one of the best documentaries ever made and a reminder of what the power of storytelling can do.

Sponsored by Virgil Films Entertainment

This episode is brought to you by Virgil Films Entertainment. With over 25 years of distribution experience, Virgil Films helps filmmakers get their work in front of audiences on every major platform. Learn more at https://www.virgilfilms.com/.

About the Guest

Jonathan de Jong is a Dutch documentary filmmaker and the founder of SUPER7EVEN Productions. He directs socially driven films that reach big audiences, and he is best known for Human Forever, the most-watched human interest documentary in Dutch cinema history. Website: https://supersevenproductions.com

SUPER7EVEN Productions is Jonathan de Jong's Netherlands-based company, making impact-driven documentaries on pressing social issues. Human Forever premiered around a 2023 G20 summit and is now used in more than 40 universities, including Yale and Oxford, with a US broadcast coming to PBS. Jonathan's next films explore strong communities and addiction.

About Human Forever and Teun Toebes

Human Forever follows Teun Toebes, a young care ethicist dubbed the “Greta Thunberg of healthcare,” who moved into the closed ward of a nursing home at 21 and traveled across four continents and eleven countries to ask how we can give people living with dementia a better quality of life. Teun's book, The Housemates, was a number one bestseller in Denmark and has been translated into English, German, Italian, and Arabic. Website: https://www.teuntoebes.com.

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned

  • Human Forever (film): https://www.teuntoebes.com/human-forever
  • SUPER7EVEN Productions: https://supersevenproductions.com
  • Teun Toebes: https://www.teuntoebes.com
  • The Housemates, book by Teun Toebes https://septemberpublishing.org/product/the-housemates-pb/

Connect With the Guests

  • Jonathan de Jong: Instagram https://www.instagram.com/7onathandejong, LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-de-jong-07b670b
  • Teun Toebes: Instagram https://www.instagram.com/teuntoebes, LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/teuntoebes

Listen and Follow Documentary First

  • Listen to this episode: https://pod.fo/e/50bde1
  • YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

Support the Show


Connect


]]>d4dec00e-c43d-4725-ac03-c8f2db477c6bThu, 06 Aug 2026 05:00:00 -050051:49falsefull284284Why You Need Someone to Believe in You FirstWhy You Need Someone to Believe in You FirstWho saw something in you before you could see it yourself?

Sometimes you need someone to believe in you before you can believe in yourself. Joe Amodei spent 45 years helping other people's documentaries find an audience. It took a friend to tell him he could make one.

In this Deep Dive on Documentary First Episode 283, Christian follows one story from her conversation with Joe, founder of Virgil Films and Entertainment, which distributes her film The Girl Who Wore Freedom and sponsors the show. Joe set out to help his friend Morgan Spurlock, the director of Super Size Me, by bringing him a hockey story about the 1976 Philadelphia Flyers. Morgan told Joe to direct it himself. Joe said he wasn't a director. Morgan said he was. Morgan died before Joe shot a single frame, and Joe made Cold War in Philly anyway. Watch the full conversation: Episode 283 with Joe Amodei.

Christian knows this one from the inside. When she wanted to make The Girl Who Wore Freedom, she asked her friend, producer Sandy Gordon, to take the reins. Sandy told her to do it herself and promised to stay by her side, and she did. Then, at Christmas 2018, with the film shot and her production company in trouble, Christian was ready to quit. Her son Hunter watched La La Land with her, followed her out of the room when she broke down, and kept telling her she would finish the film until she believed it. From there Christian follows the same thread through Tolkien and C.S. Lewis, a 40-year study of children on Kauai, a teenage stage role as Don Quixote's horse, Fred Shero's Flyers and the BELIEVE sign in Ted Lasso. The lesson she lands on: belief costs almost nothing to give, and it has to be given again and again. (Audio only this week: a storm knocked out power in Wheaton.)

In this episode, Christian explores:

  • Why Joe Amodei, after 45 years in distribution, couldn't see himself as a director
  • What Morgan Spurlock told him, and how that belief outlived Morgan
  • How producer Sandy Gordon told Christian to make The Girl Who Wore Freedom herself
  • What C.S. Lewis had to do with The Lord of the Rings
  • What Emmy Werner's 40-year Kauai study found about kids who thrive
  • What playing Don Quixote's horse in Man of La Mancha taught a teenage Christian
  • Why belief gets you to the starting line but not always to the finish
  • The Christmas her son Hunter believed in her when she was ready to walk away
  • Why encouragement has to be repeated, not announced once
  • How the 1976 Flyers beat the Soviet Red Army believing in their coach, Fred Shero
  • Two things to do this week: remember who believed in you, and become that person for someone else

Chapters

0:00 Morgan's Three Words

2:46 Seen From the Outside

5:29 Hitting a Wall

8:31 Fred Shero's Flyers

11:04 Two Things This Week

Frequently Asked Questions

Why is it important to have someone believe in you?

Most of us can't see our own potential clearly because we know our doubts too well. In a 2026 Documentary First Deep Dive, Christian Taylor pointed to Joe Amodei, who had 45 years in film distribution but couldn't see himself as a director until his friend Morgan Spurlock told him he was one. Belief from outside fills that gap, often right when we're ready to quit.

How do you keep going when you want to quit a creative project?

Borrow belief until you can make your own. Christian Taylor said in a 2026 Documentary First Deep Dive that belief gets you to the starting line, but the middle of any hard project brings a wall. What carries people through is rarely one pep talk. It's someone who reminds them, again and again, usually right when they're about to quit, that they can finish.

Can one person really change your life?

Research suggests yes. Christian Taylor cited Emmy Werner's study on Documentary First in 2026: Werner followed almost 700 children on the island of Kauai for 40 years, many born into hard circumstances. What most separated the kids who thrived wasn't money or talent. It was having at least one steady adult who believed in them. One person was enough.

How did Joe Amodei come to direct Cold War in Philly?

Christian Taylor told the story on Documentary First in 2026. After 45 years in film distribution, Joe set out to help his friend Morgan Spurlock, the director of Super Size Me, by bringing him a hockey story. Morgan said he wanted Joe to direct it. Joe said he wasn't a director, and Morgan said yes, he was. Morgan died before Joe shot a frame. Joe made the film anyway.

Listen and Follow

Follow Documentary First wherever you listen: https://pod.fo/e/4dbb34

Support the Show

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect

All social platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

Source Episode

Cold War in Philly: Joe Amodei Directs His First Documentary (Ep. 283)

About Joe Amodei

Joe Amodei is the founder of Virgil Films and Entertainment and has spent 45 years in film distribution, with releases including Super Size Me, Restrepo and Forks Over Knives. Cold War in Philly is the first film he directed.

About Virgil Films and Entertainment

Virgil Films and Entertainment is an independent film distributor led by Joe Amodei. Its releases include Super Size Me, Restrepo, Forks Over Knives and I Am Chris Farley. Virgil distributes Christian's film The Girl Who Wore Freedom. virgilfilms.com

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned


]]>Who saw something in you before you could see it yourself?

Sometimes you need someone to believe in you before you can believe in yourself. Joe Amodei spent 45 years helping other people's documentaries find an audience. It took a friend to tell him he could make one.

In this Deep Dive on Documentary First Episode 283, Christian follows one story from her conversation with Joe, founder of Virgil Films and Entertainment, which distributes her film The Girl Who Wore Freedom and sponsors the show. Joe set out to help his friend Morgan Spurlock, the director of Super Size Me, by bringing him a hockey story about the 1976 Philadelphia Flyers. Morgan told Joe to direct it himself. Joe said he wasn't a director. Morgan said he was. Morgan died before Joe shot a single frame, and Joe made Cold War in Philly anyway. Watch the full conversation: Episode 283 with Joe Amodei.

Christian knows this one from the inside. When she wanted to make The Girl Who Wore Freedom, she asked her friend, producer Sandy Gordon, to take the reins. Sandy told her to do it herself and promised to stay by her side, and she did. Then, at Christmas 2018, with the film shot and her production company in trouble, Christian was ready to quit. Her son Hunter watched La La Land with her, followed her out of the room when she broke down, and kept telling her she would finish the film until she believed it. From there Christian follows the same thread through Tolkien and C.S. Lewis, a 40-year study of children on Kauai, a teenage stage role as Don Quixote's horse, Fred Shero's Flyers and the BELIEVE sign in Ted Lasso. The lesson she lands on: belief costs almost nothing to give, and it has to be given again and again. (Audio only this week: a storm knocked out power in Wheaton.)

In this episode, Christian explores:

  • Why Joe Amodei, after 45 years in distribution, couldn't see himself as a director
  • What Morgan Spurlock told him, and how that belief outlived Morgan
  • How producer Sandy Gordon told Christian to make The Girl Who Wore Freedom herself
  • What C.S. Lewis had to do with The Lord of the Rings
  • What Emmy Werner's 40-year Kauai study found about kids who thrive
  • What playing Don Quixote's horse in Man of La Mancha taught a teenage Christian
  • Why belief gets you to the starting line but not always to the finish
  • The Christmas her son Hunter believed in her when she was ready to walk away
  • Why encouragement has to be repeated, not announced once
  • How the 1976 Flyers beat the Soviet Red Army believing in their coach, Fred Shero
  • Two things to do this week: remember who believed in you, and become that person for someone else

Chapters

0:00 Morgan's Three Words

2:46 Seen From the Outside

5:29 Hitting a Wall

8:31 Fred Shero's Flyers

11:04 Two Things This Week

Frequently Asked Questions

Why is it important to have someone believe in you?

Most of us can't see our own potential clearly because we know our doubts too well. In a 2026 Documentary First Deep Dive, Christian Taylor pointed to Joe Amodei, who had 45 years in film distribution but couldn't see himself as a director until his friend Morgan Spurlock told him he was one. Belief from outside fills that gap, often right when we're ready to quit.

How do you keep going when you want to quit a creative project?

Borrow belief until you can make your own. Christian Taylor said in a 2026 Documentary First Deep Dive that belief gets you to the starting line, but the middle of any hard project brings a wall. What carries people through is rarely one pep talk. It's someone who reminds them, again and again, usually right when they're about to quit, that they can finish.

Can one person really change your life?

Research suggests yes. Christian Taylor cited Emmy Werner's study on Documentary First in 2026: Werner followed almost 700 children on the island of Kauai for 40 years, many born into hard circumstances. What most separated the kids who thrived wasn't money or talent. It was having at least one steady adult who believed in them. One person was enough.

How did Joe Amodei come to direct Cold War in Philly?

Christian Taylor told the story on Documentary First in 2026. After 45 years in film distribution, Joe set out to help his friend Morgan Spurlock, the director of Super Size Me, by bringing him a hockey story. Morgan said he wanted Joe to direct it. Joe said he wasn't a director, and Morgan said yes, he was. Morgan died before Joe shot a frame. Joe made the film anyway.

Listen and Follow

Follow Documentary First wherever you listen: https://pod.fo/e/4dbb34

Support the Show

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect

All social platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

Source Episode

Cold War in Philly: Joe Amodei Directs His First Documentary (Ep. 283)

About Joe Amodei

Joe Amodei is the founder of Virgil Films and Entertainment and has spent 45 years in film distribution, with releases including Super Size Me, Restrepo and Forks Over Knives. Cold War in Philly is the first film he directed.

About Virgil Films and Entertainment

Virgil Films and Entertainment is an independent film distributor led by Joe Amodei. Its releases include Super Size Me, Restrepo, Forks Over Knives and I Am Chris Farley. Virgil distributes Christian's film The Girl Who Wore Freedom. virgilfilms.com

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned


]]>d822f7d8-2e85-48bd-8fa9-545b736f1c66Thu, 30 Jul 2026 05:00:00 -050013:51falsefullCold War in Philly: Joe Amodei Directs His First DocumentaryCold War in Philly: Joe Amodei Directs His First DocumentaryWhat happens when a film distributor with more than 40 years in the business finally makes his own documentary?

Joe Amodei grew up in Philadelphia watching the Flyers with his parents, sisters and brothers. From the family living room, he watched the team he still calls his heroes beat the Soviet Red Army on January 11, 1976. After decades of releasing other people's documentaries, he decided it was finally time to make his own. Cold War in Philly tells the story of that game and of the players who are still Philadelphia heroes 50 years later. Joe calls it a love letter to them.

In Episode 283, Christian Taylor welcomes Joe back, this time as a first-time director. He explains how he got access to a legendary NHL team: a cousin who works with the Flyers alumni, and a man named Brad Marsh who runs the alumni group and told the players Joe was a good guy. He got the players on camera, including Ed Van Impe and Bernie Parent, who have since died.

The film took two and a half years, mostly because Joe made it while running Virgil Films, a mistake he won't repeat. He kept it under $250,000, the same ceiling he gives every documentary filmmaker. It opened in Philadelphia and sold out every screening, growing from six planned screenings to 17 in July. Then Joe tells, for the first time anywhere, why the film ends with a photo of him and Morgan Spurlock. When Joe found the project, he offered it to Spurlock to direct. Spurlock turned it down and told Joe to direct it himself, and when Joe said he wasn't a director, Spurlock said, "Yes, you are." Spurlock died not long after. The episode ends on why the work is worth it: players thanking Joe in tears, and the daughter of the Flyers' broadcaster Gene Hart hearing her father call that game for the first time in 50 years.

Full disclosure: since 2022, Joe's company, Virgil Films, has distributed Christian's film The Girl Who Wore Freedom, and it sponsors Documentary First, including this episode.

WATCH THE FILM

Cold War in Philly: Flyers vs Russia 1976 is available to rent or buy on Amazon, Apple TV and Fandango at Home, with links on the film's site: https://coldwarinphilly.com

CHAPTERS

0:00 Becoming a First-Time Director

2:42 Where the Idea Came From

5:08 How Do You Get Access?

9:33 Capturing Heroes in Time

13:04 Structuring the Documentary

21:20 The Grind of Production

28:11 Selling Out Theaters

36:06 A Promise to Morgan Spurlock

38:32 Was Distribution Hard?

41:37 What Should a Doc Budget Be?

44:48 Passion and Willpower

47:38 Is Filmmaking Worth It?

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

How do you get access to famous people or organizations for a documentary?

Go through the alumni association. Joe Amodei got access to the Philadelphia Flyers players through the team's alumni group, which handles former players' appearances. Nearly every major sports team has one, usually run by one or two people. Find that person and earn their trust, and they can open the door to the whole roster. Then be ready for separate contracts with the team, the owner and the league, which took Joe almost a year.

How much does it cost to make a documentary?

For an independent documentary, Joe Amodei's rule is not to spend more than $250,000, and he kept his own film, Cold War in Philly, under that line. Christian Taylor frames it as knowing what the film can realistically earn back before you set the budget, and understanding the market you are spending against. A built-in audience and disciplined spending give a documentary a real chance to earn its money back.

What makes an independent film succeed now?

A built-in audience, Christian Taylor says, and Joe Amodei agrees: "Always." Cold War in Philly had Flyers fans waiting for it, and its theatrical run sold out. But Joe adds a caveat: people asked him who would watch beyond Flyers fans, and he went ahead anyway. Many viewers have since told him they aren't even hockey fans. If your gut says go, he says, still think about it, but that doesn't mean you don't do it.

What does it take to finish a documentary?

Two things, according to Joe Amodei: passion and willpower. Passion for the story carries you through a process that will not be easy, and willpower keeps you going when the edit stalls and the work isn't moving as fast as you wanted. You owe it to your investors, your subjects and the people who gave up their time to sit for you. His advice is simple: you can't give up.

What should you look for in a film distributor?

Christian Taylor describes what makes Joe a distributor worth trusting: he answers calls and emails, pays his bills on time, sends the reports that are due, and is honest. She says that basic reliability is rarer than it should be in the business, and it's what separates a distributor you can trust from one you can't.

DOCUVIEW DÉJÀ VU PICKS

From the Virgil Films slate, Joe highlighted She Was Here, about the young actress from Poltergeist, and Broken Brothers, from Jeff Levine, a future Documentary First guest.

SPONSORED BY VIRGIL FILMS ENTERTAINMENT

https://virgilfilms.com

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/49a077

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Joe Amodei

Founder of Virgil Films and Entertainment; director of Cold War in Philly

Joe Amodei has worked in film distribution for more than 40 years, starting in home video retail in Philadelphia. In 2000 he became president of USA Home Entertainment, and he went on to create Virgil Films and Entertainment, whose releases include Super Size Me, Restrepo, Forks Over Knives and Glen Campbell: I'll Be Me. He won a 2020 New York Emmy for The Real Bedford Falls: It's a Wonderful Life. Cold War in Philly: Flyers vs Russia 1976 is his first film as a director; he also produced it and co-wrote it with Irv Slifkin.

Virgil Films on Instagram

Virgil Films on X

Virgil Films on Facebook

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

THE DISTRIBUTION SERIES


]]>What happens when a film distributor with more than 40 years in the business finally makes his own documentary?

Joe Amodei grew up in Philadelphia watching the Flyers with his parents, sisters and brothers. From the family living room, he watched the team he still calls his heroes beat the Soviet Red Army on January 11, 1976. After decades of releasing other people's documentaries, he decided it was finally time to make his own. Cold War in Philly tells the story of that game and of the players who are still Philadelphia heroes 50 years later. Joe calls it a love letter to them.

In Episode 283, Christian Taylor welcomes Joe back, this time as a first-time director. He explains how he got access to a legendary NHL team: a cousin who works with the Flyers alumni, and a man named Brad Marsh who runs the alumni group and told the players Joe was a good guy. He got the players on camera, including Ed Van Impe and Bernie Parent, who have since died.

The film took two and a half years, mostly because Joe made it while running Virgil Films, a mistake he won't repeat. He kept it under $250,000, the same ceiling he gives every documentary filmmaker. It opened in Philadelphia and sold out every screening, growing from six planned screenings to 17 in July. Then Joe tells, for the first time anywhere, why the film ends with a photo of him and Morgan Spurlock. When Joe found the project, he offered it to Spurlock to direct. Spurlock turned it down and told Joe to direct it himself, and when Joe said he wasn't a director, Spurlock said, "Yes, you are." Spurlock died not long after. The episode ends on why the work is worth it: players thanking Joe in tears, and the daughter of the Flyers' broadcaster Gene Hart hearing her father call that game for the first time in 50 years.

Full disclosure: since 2022, Joe's company, Virgil Films, has distributed Christian's film The Girl Who Wore Freedom, and it sponsors Documentary First, including this episode.

WATCH THE FILM

Cold War in Philly: Flyers vs Russia 1976 is available to rent or buy on Amazon, Apple TV and Fandango at Home, with links on the film's site: https://coldwarinphilly.com

CHAPTERS

0:00 Becoming a First-Time Director

2:42 Where the Idea Came From

5:08 How Do You Get Access?

9:33 Capturing Heroes in Time

13:04 Structuring the Documentary

21:20 The Grind of Production

28:11 Selling Out Theaters

36:06 A Promise to Morgan Spurlock

38:32 Was Distribution Hard?

41:37 What Should a Doc Budget Be?

44:48 Passion and Willpower

47:38 Is Filmmaking Worth It?

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

How do you get access to famous people or organizations for a documentary?

Go through the alumni association. Joe Amodei got access to the Philadelphia Flyers players through the team's alumni group, which handles former players' appearances. Nearly every major sports team has one, usually run by one or two people. Find that person and earn their trust, and they can open the door to the whole roster. Then be ready for separate contracts with the team, the owner and the league, which took Joe almost a year.

How much does it cost to make a documentary?

For an independent documentary, Joe Amodei's rule is not to spend more than $250,000, and he kept his own film, Cold War in Philly, under that line. Christian Taylor frames it as knowing what the film can realistically earn back before you set the budget, and understanding the market you are spending against. A built-in audience and disciplined spending give a documentary a real chance to earn its money back.

What makes an independent film succeed now?

A built-in audience, Christian Taylor says, and Joe Amodei agrees: "Always." Cold War in Philly had Flyers fans waiting for it, and its theatrical run sold out. But Joe adds a caveat: people asked him who would watch beyond Flyers fans, and he went ahead anyway. Many viewers have since told him they aren't even hockey fans. If your gut says go, he says, still think about it, but that doesn't mean you don't do it.

What does it take to finish a documentary?

Two things, according to Joe Amodei: passion and willpower. Passion for the story carries you through a process that will not be easy, and willpower keeps you going when the edit stalls and the work isn't moving as fast as you wanted. You owe it to your investors, your subjects and the people who gave up their time to sit for you. His advice is simple: you can't give up.

What should you look for in a film distributor?

Christian Taylor describes what makes Joe a distributor worth trusting: he answers calls and emails, pays his bills on time, sends the reports that are due, and is honest. She says that basic reliability is rarer than it should be in the business, and it's what separates a distributor you can trust from one you can't.

DOCUVIEW DÉJÀ VU PICKS

From the Virgil Films slate, Joe highlighted She Was Here, about the young actress from Poltergeist, and Broken Brothers, from Jeff Levine, a future Documentary First guest.

SPONSORED BY VIRGIL FILMS ENTERTAINMENT

https://virgilfilms.com

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/49a077

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Joe Amodei

Founder of Virgil Films and Entertainment; director of Cold War in Philly

Joe Amodei has worked in film distribution for more than 40 years, starting in home video retail in Philadelphia. In 2000 he became president of USA Home Entertainment, and he went on to create Virgil Films and Entertainment, whose releases include Super Size Me, Restrepo, Forks Over Knives and Glen Campbell: I'll Be Me. He won a 2020 New York Emmy for The Real Bedford Falls: It's a Wonderful Life. Cold War in Philly: Flyers vs Russia 1976 is his first film as a director; he also produced it and co-wrote it with Irv Slifkin.

Virgil Films on Instagram

Virgil Films on X

Virgil Films on Facebook

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

THE DISTRIBUTION SERIES


]]>6643b344-ee98-487f-8edf-2b10ec7ca335Thu, 23 Jul 2026 05:00:00 -050054:11falsefull283283What a 6-Year-Old Saw During the Battle of CarentanWhat a 6-Year-Old Saw During the Battle of CarentanHow do you make people care about your documentary?

Facts alone rarely make an audience care. The emotional core of a documentary lives somewhere else. In this episode of Documentary First, filmmaker Christian Taylor tells the story of how she found the heartbeat her film about the Battle of Carentan was missing. It was not in the archives. It was in the memories of a man who was six years old when the war came for his town.

For months, Christian’s film Heroes of Carentan felt stuck in what one WWII veteran called the “data of history,” the maps, the dates, and the military maneuvers. Everything shifted when she met Yves Marchais. In June 1944, Yves was a small boy living under German occupation in Carentan, France. This year he sent Christian thirteen letters recording what he remembered, and those letters gave the historical record a soul.

It comes down to a lesson every documentary filmmaker learns the hard way: audiences do not connect to issues or information, they connect to people. Anchored by a line from Pfc. John E. Fitzgerald, a runner for Medal of Honor recipient Lt. Col. Robert Cole, this episode argues that the essence of history is not its record but its heartbeat. Yves calls his own account his “hummingbird’s share,” not the whole war, but the small, vivid pieces that passed before a child’s eyes. His story becomes a lesson in telling a big historical event through one small, personal one.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

Why facts and figures alone rarely move an audience

How to find the emotional core, or heartbeat, of a documentary

Why audiences connect to people, not to issues or information

How to tell a big historical story through one small, personal one

What Pfc. John E. Fitzgerald meant when he warned that history can lose its heartbeat

Why one person’s story can carry an entire historical event

What the “hummingbird’s share” is, and why small memories matter more than big ones

How the Battle of Carentan looked through the eyes of a six-year-old boy

How Yves Marchais and his family survived the occupation and liberation of Carentan

Why the story a filmmaker starts with is often not the story worth telling

What the series Band of Brothers has to do with the real Battle of Carentan

How to know when your film has finally found its emotional core

Chapters:

00:00 Meeting a survivor of Carentan

01:15 13 letters and Band of Brothers

02:26 Life under German occupation

04:01 D-Day and the kitchen sink

05:27 Fleeing an empty Carentan

06:59 The trench and liberation

08:45 Colonel Cole and the runner

10:57 The lesson: find your heartbeat

Frequently Asked Questions:

How do you find the emotional core of a documentary?

Facts and chronology rarely move an audience on their own. The emotional core, what host Christian Taylor calls the heartbeat, usually lives in one person’s specific, lived experience rather than in the broad historical record. In this episode she describes finding it in the memories of Yves Marchais, a French civilian who was six during the Battle of Carentan, and building the film’s meaning around his point of view.

How do you make an audience care about a documentary subject?

Audiences connect to people far more than to issues or information. The most reliable way to make viewers care about a large subject, a war, a movement, a crisis, is to tell it through one specific person whose experience makes the bigger story personal. In this episode, Christian Taylor builds her film about the Battle of Carentan around a single child’s memories rather than the broad military record.

What was the Battle of Carentan?

The Battle of Carentan was a June 1944 fight for the town of Carentan in Normandy, France, a key objective linking the American forces landing at Utah and Omaha beaches. The 101st Airborne Division, including units later made famous by Band of Brothers, fought to take the town, which was liberated on June 12, 1944.

Who is Yves Marchais?

Yves Marchais is a French man who, as a six-year-old boy, lived through the German occupation and the 1944 liberation of Carentan. Decades later he recorded his childhood memories of the war in a series of letters, which became the emotional core of Christian Taylor’s documentary. He calls his account his “hummingbird’s share,” the small, true pieces of history he witnessed firsthand.

What did Pfc. John Fitzgerald mean about history losing its heartbeat?

Pfc. John E. Fitzgerald, who served as a runner for Medal of Honor recipient Lt. Col. Robert Cole, wrote that the data of history should not lose its heartbeat as it becomes information, or all that remains is the record without the essence. Christian Taylor uses that idea as the key to her film: the facts of a battle matter, but the human story is what makes people care.

About the Film and the Story:

Heroes of Carentan is Christian Taylor’s in-production documentary about the 1944 liberation of Carentan, Normandy, told through the people who lived it. Yves Marchais was six years old during the battle. His firsthand account of the occupation, the bombing, his family’s escape through a deserted town, and the moment of liberation forms the emotional center of the film. This episode is the second part of Christian’s story about finding that center.

About Documentary First:

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned:

The Colonel and the Runner, by Pfc. John E. Fitzgerald (a recollection of Lt. Col. Robert G. Cole, 502nd Parachute Infantry Regiment, 101st Airborne Division)

Band of Brothers (Episode 3 follows the Battle of Carentan)

The Girl Who Wore Freedom, Christian Taylor’s award-winning D-Day documentary

Watch or Listen to Part 1:

https://pod.fo/e/4405a5

Listen and Follow:

Documentary First: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

Support the show

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect:

Documentary First on all platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Connect with Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

]]>How do you make people care about your documentary?

Facts alone rarely make an audience care. The emotional core of a documentary lives somewhere else. In this episode of Documentary First, filmmaker Christian Taylor tells the story of how she found the heartbeat her film about the Battle of Carentan was missing. It was not in the archives. It was in the memories of a man who was six years old when the war came for his town.

For months, Christian’s film Heroes of Carentan felt stuck in what one WWII veteran called the “data of history,” the maps, the dates, and the military maneuvers. Everything shifted when she met Yves Marchais. In June 1944, Yves was a small boy living under German occupation in Carentan, France. This year he sent Christian thirteen letters recording what he remembered, and those letters gave the historical record a soul.

It comes down to a lesson every documentary filmmaker learns the hard way: audiences do not connect to issues or information, they connect to people. Anchored by a line from Pfc. John E. Fitzgerald, a runner for Medal of Honor recipient Lt. Col. Robert Cole, this episode argues that the essence of history is not its record but its heartbeat. Yves calls his own account his “hummingbird’s share,” not the whole war, but the small, vivid pieces that passed before a child’s eyes. His story becomes a lesson in telling a big historical event through one small, personal one.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

Why facts and figures alone rarely move an audience

How to find the emotional core, or heartbeat, of a documentary

Why audiences connect to people, not to issues or information

How to tell a big historical story through one small, personal one

What Pfc. John E. Fitzgerald meant when he warned that history can lose its heartbeat

Why one person’s story can carry an entire historical event

What the “hummingbird’s share” is, and why small memories matter more than big ones

How the Battle of Carentan looked through the eyes of a six-year-old boy

How Yves Marchais and his family survived the occupation and liberation of Carentan

Why the story a filmmaker starts with is often not the story worth telling

What the series Band of Brothers has to do with the real Battle of Carentan

How to know when your film has finally found its emotional core

Chapters:

00:00 Meeting a survivor of Carentan

01:15 13 letters and Band of Brothers

02:26 Life under German occupation

04:01 D-Day and the kitchen sink

05:27 Fleeing an empty Carentan

06:59 The trench and liberation

08:45 Colonel Cole and the runner

10:57 The lesson: find your heartbeat

Frequently Asked Questions:

How do you find the emotional core of a documentary?

Facts and chronology rarely move an audience on their own. The emotional core, what host Christian Taylor calls the heartbeat, usually lives in one person’s specific, lived experience rather than in the broad historical record. In this episode she describes finding it in the memories of Yves Marchais, a French civilian who was six during the Battle of Carentan, and building the film’s meaning around his point of view.

How do you make an audience care about a documentary subject?

Audiences connect to people far more than to issues or information. The most reliable way to make viewers care about a large subject, a war, a movement, a crisis, is to tell it through one specific person whose experience makes the bigger story personal. In this episode, Christian Taylor builds her film about the Battle of Carentan around a single child’s memories rather than the broad military record.

What was the Battle of Carentan?

The Battle of Carentan was a June 1944 fight for the town of Carentan in Normandy, France, a key objective linking the American forces landing at Utah and Omaha beaches. The 101st Airborne Division, including units later made famous by Band of Brothers, fought to take the town, which was liberated on June 12, 1944.

Who is Yves Marchais?

Yves Marchais is a French man who, as a six-year-old boy, lived through the German occupation and the 1944 liberation of Carentan. Decades later he recorded his childhood memories of the war in a series of letters, which became the emotional core of Christian Taylor’s documentary. He calls his account his “hummingbird’s share,” the small, true pieces of history he witnessed firsthand.

What did Pfc. John Fitzgerald mean about history losing its heartbeat?

Pfc. John E. Fitzgerald, who served as a runner for Medal of Honor recipient Lt. Col. Robert Cole, wrote that the data of history should not lose its heartbeat as it becomes information, or all that remains is the record without the essence. Christian Taylor uses that idea as the key to her film: the facts of a battle matter, but the human story is what makes people care.

About the Film and the Story:

Heroes of Carentan is Christian Taylor’s in-production documentary about the 1944 liberation of Carentan, Normandy, told through the people who lived it. Yves Marchais was six years old during the battle. His firsthand account of the occupation, the bombing, his family’s escape through a deserted town, and the moment of liberation forms the emotional center of the film. This episode is the second part of Christian’s story about finding that center.

About Documentary First:

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned:

The Colonel and the Runner, by Pfc. John E. Fitzgerald (a recollection of Lt. Col. Robert G. Cole, 502nd Parachute Infantry Regiment, 101st Airborne Division)

Band of Brothers (Episode 3 follows the Battle of Carentan)

The Girl Who Wore Freedom, Christian Taylor’s award-winning D-Day documentary

Watch or Listen to Part 1:

https://pod.fo/e/4405a5

Listen and Follow:

Documentary First: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

Support the show

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect:

Documentary First on all platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Connect with Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

]]>bdf74070-5499-4be5-8e75-79855fbde0feThu, 16 Jul 2026 05:00:00 -050012:04falsefull282282Why the Battle Wasn't the Story in My WWII DocumentaryWhy the Battle Wasn't the Story in My WWII DocumentaryCan thirteen letters from an 88-year-old stranger bring a dead film back to life?

For two years, Heroes of Carentan, Christian Taylor's documentary about the 101st Airborne Division and the June 1944 liberation of Carentan, sat on a shelf, half made. In this episode she tells the honest story of why a WWII documentary stalls, what it costs to keep going, and the thirteen letters from an 88-year-old man in France that finally gave the film its heartbeat back.

In Episode 281 of Documentary First, Christian Taylor takes listeners inside her upcoming film for the first time. Part 1 is how Heroes of Carentan fell apart, and how it came back. Part 2 travels to Normandy, where the letters came to life.

Christian walks through the three walls that stalled the film: a story that had all its pieces but none of the feeling, a modern-to-historical framing device that turned into a cage, and the reality of self-funding a documentary, including a Covid disaster loan she wished she'd never taken. Then comes the breakthrough, hidden in two years of research, and the moment she remembered Yves Marchais, who was six and a half years old when the 101st Airborne liberated his town.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • Why a documentary can have every piece in place and still feel dead on the screen
  • How a timely framing device can quietly become a liability that dates a film
  • What self-funding a documentary can mean, and the loan no one talks about
  • Why the story of the Battle of Carentan was not working
  • How going back to the research, not the footage, broke a two-year block
  • Why pointing the camera at the people the soldiers saved changed everything
  • Who Yves Marchais is, and why his memories reframed the whole film
  • How thirteen letters from an 88-year-old man gave the film its heartbeat
  • What separates Heroes of Carentan from The Girl Who Wore Freedom
  • Why the cost of war, carried in one person, became the true subject

CHAPTERS

0:00 A letter from Carentan

0:32 Why this episode is for you

1:19 Heroes of Carentan and The Girl Who Wore Freedom

1:50 Normandy's gratitude, and where this show began

2:46 Two years on the shelf: the three walls

2:57 Wall 1: all the pieces, none of the feeling

3:41 Wall 2: the framing that became a cage

4:34 Wall 3: self-funding, burnout, and the loan no one talks about

5:48 The breakthrough hiding in the research

6:32 Point the camera at the ones they saved

7:08 Meeting Yves Marchais

8:27 Thirteen letters from a child of war

10:25 The heartbeat, and off to Normandy

Frequently Asked Questions

What was the Battle of Carentan in June 1944?

The Battle of Carentan was fought from June 10 to 14, 1944, days after the D-Day landings. The U.S. 101st Airborne Division fought to take the Norman town of Carentan, which linked the Utah and Omaha beachheads. After crossing an exposed causeway under fire, the Americans forced the German defenders out on June 12, then held the town against a counterattack with help from the 2nd Armored Division.

Who liberated Carentan in World War II?

Carentan was liberated by the U.S. 101st Airborne Division, the Screaming Eagles, in June 1944. The 501st, 502nd, and 506th Parachute Infantry Regiments and the 327th Glider Infantry Regiment spearheaded the fight, with Lieutenant Colonel Robert Cole leading a famous charge along the road nicknamed Purple Heart Lane. In addition, tanks from the 2nd Armored Division helped repel the German counterattack on June 13.

What is the documentary Heroes of Carentan about?

Heroes of Carentan is a feature documentary by filmmaker Christian Taylor about the liberation of Carentan, France, in June 1944, told through the people who lived it. After a two-year production stall, the film was rebuilt with the help of Yves Marchais, who was a six-year-old child during the battle and later wrote thirteen letters recounting his memories. It is Taylor's second feature, following The Girl Who Wore Freedom.

Why do documentary filmmakers self-fund their films?

Documentary funding is famously hard, and self-funding is common because otherwise many projects would never get made. Filmmakers often cover early costs themselves to show commitment before grants or investors come in. The current climate is tougher than usual, with the closure of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and cuts to PBS shrinking traditional support, so many filmmakers now rely on personal savings, credit, and small donor communities.

Who is Yves Marchais?

Yves Marchais is a French civilian who was six and a half years old when the U.S. 101st Airborne Division liberated his town of Carentan in June 1944. Now 88, he wrote thirteen letters to filmmaker Christian Taylor recounting his childhood memories of the occupation, the bombing, and the American soldiers who saved his family. His testimony became the emotional center of the documentary Heroes of Carentan.

About Heroes of Carentan

Heroes of Carentan is Christian Taylor's second feature documentary, currently in production. It tells the story of the liberation of Carentan, France, in June 1944 by the 101st Airborne Division, seen through the eyes of French civilian Yves Marchais, who lived through it as a six-year-old child.

About The Girl Who Wore Freedom

Christian Taylor's award-winning first documentary, about the gratitude the people of Normandy still carry for the American soldiers who liberated them. This episode includes a short clip from the film featuring Valerie Cardin and Marie-Pascal Legrand. Website: https://www.thegirlwhoworefreedom.com

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned

The Girl Who Wore Freedom: https://www.thegirlwhoworefreedom.com

Listen & Follow

Listen and follow Documentary First: https://pod.fo/e/4405a5

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

Support the show

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect

Documentary First on all platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

]]>Can thirteen letters from an 88-year-old stranger bring a dead film back to life?

For two years, Heroes of Carentan, Christian Taylor's documentary about the 101st Airborne Division and the June 1944 liberation of Carentan, sat on a shelf, half made. In this episode she tells the honest story of why a WWII documentary stalls, what it costs to keep going, and the thirteen letters from an 88-year-old man in France that finally gave the film its heartbeat back.

In Episode 281 of Documentary First, Christian Taylor takes listeners inside her upcoming film for the first time. Part 1 is how Heroes of Carentan fell apart, and how it came back. Part 2 travels to Normandy, where the letters came to life.

Christian walks through the three walls that stalled the film: a story that had all its pieces but none of the feeling, a modern-to-historical framing device that turned into a cage, and the reality of self-funding a documentary, including a Covid disaster loan she wished she'd never taken. Then comes the breakthrough, hidden in two years of research, and the moment she remembered Yves Marchais, who was six and a half years old when the 101st Airborne liberated his town.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • Why a documentary can have every piece in place and still feel dead on the screen
  • How a timely framing device can quietly become a liability that dates a film
  • What self-funding a documentary can mean, and the loan no one talks about
  • Why the story of the Battle of Carentan was not working
  • How going back to the research, not the footage, broke a two-year block
  • Why pointing the camera at the people the soldiers saved changed everything
  • Who Yves Marchais is, and why his memories reframed the whole film
  • How thirteen letters from an 88-year-old man gave the film its heartbeat
  • What separates Heroes of Carentan from The Girl Who Wore Freedom
  • Why the cost of war, carried in one person, became the true subject

CHAPTERS

0:00 A letter from Carentan

0:32 Why this episode is for you

1:19 Heroes of Carentan and The Girl Who Wore Freedom

1:50 Normandy's gratitude, and where this show began

2:46 Two years on the shelf: the three walls

2:57 Wall 1: all the pieces, none of the feeling

3:41 Wall 2: the framing that became a cage

4:34 Wall 3: self-funding, burnout, and the loan no one talks about

5:48 The breakthrough hiding in the research

6:32 Point the camera at the ones they saved

7:08 Meeting Yves Marchais

8:27 Thirteen letters from a child of war

10:25 The heartbeat, and off to Normandy

Frequently Asked Questions

What was the Battle of Carentan in June 1944?

The Battle of Carentan was fought from June 10 to 14, 1944, days after the D-Day landings. The U.S. 101st Airborne Division fought to take the Norman town of Carentan, which linked the Utah and Omaha beachheads. After crossing an exposed causeway under fire, the Americans forced the German defenders out on June 12, then held the town against a counterattack with help from the 2nd Armored Division.

Who liberated Carentan in World War II?

Carentan was liberated by the U.S. 101st Airborne Division, the Screaming Eagles, in June 1944. The 501st, 502nd, and 506th Parachute Infantry Regiments and the 327th Glider Infantry Regiment spearheaded the fight, with Lieutenant Colonel Robert Cole leading a famous charge along the road nicknamed Purple Heart Lane. In addition, tanks from the 2nd Armored Division helped repel the German counterattack on June 13.

What is the documentary Heroes of Carentan about?

Heroes of Carentan is a feature documentary by filmmaker Christian Taylor about the liberation of Carentan, France, in June 1944, told through the people who lived it. After a two-year production stall, the film was rebuilt with the help of Yves Marchais, who was a six-year-old child during the battle and later wrote thirteen letters recounting his memories. It is Taylor's second feature, following The Girl Who Wore Freedom.

Why do documentary filmmakers self-fund their films?

Documentary funding is famously hard, and self-funding is common because otherwise many projects would never get made. Filmmakers often cover early costs themselves to show commitment before grants or investors come in. The current climate is tougher than usual, with the closure of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and cuts to PBS shrinking traditional support, so many filmmakers now rely on personal savings, credit, and small donor communities.

Who is Yves Marchais?

Yves Marchais is a French civilian who was six and a half years old when the U.S. 101st Airborne Division liberated his town of Carentan in June 1944. Now 88, he wrote thirteen letters to filmmaker Christian Taylor recounting his childhood memories of the occupation, the bombing, and the American soldiers who saved his family. His testimony became the emotional center of the documentary Heroes of Carentan.

About Heroes of Carentan

Heroes of Carentan is Christian Taylor's second feature documentary, currently in production. It tells the story of the liberation of Carentan, France, in June 1944 by the 101st Airborne Division, seen through the eyes of French civilian Yves Marchais, who lived through it as a six-year-old child.

About The Girl Who Wore Freedom

Christian Taylor's award-winning first documentary, about the gratitude the people of Normandy still carry for the American soldiers who liberated them. This episode includes a short clip from the film featuring Valerie Cardin and Marie-Pascal Legrand. Website: https://www.thegirlwhoworefreedom.com

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned

The Girl Who Wore Freedom: https://www.thegirlwhoworefreedom.com

Listen & Follow

Listen and follow Documentary First: https://pod.fo/e/4405a5

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

Support the show

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect

Documentary First on all platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

]]>17df2a5a-d161-47c3-85a6-fde564b4aa37Thu, 02 Jul 2026 00:00:00 -050011:29falsefull281281When a Dream Ends, What Comes Next?When a Dream Ends, What Comes Next?What if the disappointment you didn't choose was the only door to the life you were meant to live?

Three generations of one family chased professional baseball, and all three lost it to a career-ending injury. Each one found his calling in the aftermath. That pattern runs through Voices: The Danny Gans Story, filmmaker Andrew Gans's documentary about his father, the Las Vegas entertainer known as the Man of Many Voices. In this Deep Dive, Christian Taylor sits with what Andrew's film, and her own family's story, reveal about disappointment, the courage to tell the truth, and the doors we would never have chosen to walk through.

In this Deep Dive on Documentary First Episode 280 with Andrew Gans, Christian goes deeper into the heartbreak behind the film: a lost baseball career, a father's sudden death, a movie nearly ended by COVID, and the hard choice between protecting a hero and telling the truth. She connects it to her own son's last-minute disqualification that sent him to Normandy and seeded her film The Girl Who Wore Freedom, and to the warning Danny Gans's story carries for anyone living with chronic pain.

The thread tying it together is simple and hard. The worst thing that happens to you is almost never what you would have chosen, and sometimes it is the only door to the life you were meant to live. But not every closed door opens onto something better. Danny built an extraordinary life after his injury, then lost the end of that life to the medication treating his chronic pain. The doorway and the warning reach us through the same act: Andrew's refusal to quit.

In this episode, Christian explores:

  • Why three generations of one family lost their baseball dreams to injury and found their calling in the aftermath
  • How Andrew Gans set out to honor his father and ended up telling a harder, more honest story
  • Why the worst thing that happens to you can become the only door to the life you were meant to live
  • How COVID and lost funding became the reason the most personal part of the film exists
  • The choice every documentary filmmaker faces: protect the hero or tell the truth
  • Why someone is more of a hero when you see that they are human and flawed
  • How a soldier's unfair disqualification became the foundation for The Girl Who Wore Freedom
  • Why not every closed door opens onto something better, and how to hold that honestly
  • What Danny Gans's life and loss reveal about chronic pain and pain medication
  • Why holding your plan loosely can make a better film, and a better life

Chapters:

0:00 A Warning That Might Save Your Life

1:09 Andrew Gans: Losing the Dream and a Father

2:08 Three Generations, Three Closed Doors

2:54 How COVID Setbacks Shaped the Film

3:13 Making a Documentary About Your Own Family

3:33 Telling the Truth in a Documentary About Family

4:28 My Son Hunter and the Door to Normandy

5:42 Danny Gans: An Extraordinary Life and Tragic Loss

6:21 Chronic Pain and the Danger of Pain Medication

6:40 Why Persistence Matters in Filmmaking

7:02 Letting Go of Control

7:49 When Disappointment Is a Doorway

Frequently Asked Questions:

What is Voices: The Danny Gans Story about?

Voices: The Danny Gans Story is a documentary by Andrew Gans about his father, the Las Vegas entertainer Danny Gans, known as the Man of Many Voices. What started as a tribute became a more honest portrait, including the chronic pain Danny carried privately and the loss that ended his life. It is a son's effort to tell the whole truth about the man he admired.

Who was Danny Gans?

Danny Gans was a singer, comedian, and impressionist who became one of the biggest headliners in Las Vegas and was named Entertainer of the Year twelve times. Before entertainment, he was drafted by the White Sox organization, until a severed Achilles ended his baseball career and sent him toward the stage, where he became known as the Man of Many Voices.

How did Danny Gans die?

Danny Gans died in 2009 at age 52. His death was accidental, connected to prescription medication he was taking for chronic pain. Voices: The Danny Gans Story explores this honestly, presenting his story as both a tribute and a cautionary reminder about the risks of pain treatment for the millions of people who live with chronic pain every day.

How do you make a documentary about your own family?

Filmmakers documenting their own family often face a tension between honoring someone and telling the truth about them. In Voices: The Danny Gans Story, Andrew Gans chose to include painful discoveries about his father and to put himself in the film. The honest version, he found, made his father more of a hero, not less, because audiences connect with people who are human and flawed.

About the Film and the People:

Voices: The Danny Gans Story. Written and directed by Andrew Davies Gans, the documentary tells the story of his father, Danny Gans, the Las Vegas entertainer known as the Man of Many Voices. What began as a tribute became an honest portrait of a beloved performer, including the chronic pain he carried privately and the loss that ended his life.

Danny Gans. A singer, comedian, and impressionist who became one of Las Vegas's biggest headliners, named Entertainer of the Year twelve times. Before entertainment, he was drafted by the White Sox organization, until a severed Achilles ended his baseball career.

The Girl Who Wore Freedom. Christian Taylor's documentary about Normandy and the people liberated on D-Day, the film her son's unexpected assignment helped set in motion.

About Documentary First:

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned:

Documentary First Episode 280 with Andrew Gans: https://pod.fo/e/433e78

Voices: The Danny Gans Story, documentary directed by Andrew Davies Gans

The Girl Who Wore Freedom, documentary directed by Christian Taylor

Christian Taylor on IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm3041250/

Listen and Follow:

Documentary First everywhere you listen: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

Support the show

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect:

Documentary First on all platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

]]>What if the disappointment you didn't choose was the only door to the life you were meant to live?

Three generations of one family chased professional baseball, and all three lost it to a career-ending injury. Each one found his calling in the aftermath. That pattern runs through Voices: The Danny Gans Story, filmmaker Andrew Gans's documentary about his father, the Las Vegas entertainer known as the Man of Many Voices. In this Deep Dive, Christian Taylor sits with what Andrew's film, and her own family's story, reveal about disappointment, the courage to tell the truth, and the doors we would never have chosen to walk through.

In this Deep Dive on Documentary First Episode 280 with Andrew Gans, Christian goes deeper into the heartbreak behind the film: a lost baseball career, a father's sudden death, a movie nearly ended by COVID, and the hard choice between protecting a hero and telling the truth. She connects it to her own son's last-minute disqualification that sent him to Normandy and seeded her film The Girl Who Wore Freedom, and to the warning Danny Gans's story carries for anyone living with chronic pain.

The thread tying it together is simple and hard. The worst thing that happens to you is almost never what you would have chosen, and sometimes it is the only door to the life you were meant to live. But not every closed door opens onto something better. Danny built an extraordinary life after his injury, then lost the end of that life to the medication treating his chronic pain. The doorway and the warning reach us through the same act: Andrew's refusal to quit.

In this episode, Christian explores:

  • Why three generations of one family lost their baseball dreams to injury and found their calling in the aftermath
  • How Andrew Gans set out to honor his father and ended up telling a harder, more honest story
  • Why the worst thing that happens to you can become the only door to the life you were meant to live
  • How COVID and lost funding became the reason the most personal part of the film exists
  • The choice every documentary filmmaker faces: protect the hero or tell the truth
  • Why someone is more of a hero when you see that they are human and flawed
  • How a soldier's unfair disqualification became the foundation for The Girl Who Wore Freedom
  • Why not every closed door opens onto something better, and how to hold that honestly
  • What Danny Gans's life and loss reveal about chronic pain and pain medication
  • Why holding your plan loosely can make a better film, and a better life

Chapters:

0:00 A Warning That Might Save Your Life

1:09 Andrew Gans: Losing the Dream and a Father

2:08 Three Generations, Three Closed Doors

2:54 How COVID Setbacks Shaped the Film

3:13 Making a Documentary About Your Own Family

3:33 Telling the Truth in a Documentary About Family

4:28 My Son Hunter and the Door to Normandy

5:42 Danny Gans: An Extraordinary Life and Tragic Loss

6:21 Chronic Pain and the Danger of Pain Medication

6:40 Why Persistence Matters in Filmmaking

7:02 Letting Go of Control

7:49 When Disappointment Is a Doorway

Frequently Asked Questions:

What is Voices: The Danny Gans Story about?

Voices: The Danny Gans Story is a documentary by Andrew Gans about his father, the Las Vegas entertainer Danny Gans, known as the Man of Many Voices. What started as a tribute became a more honest portrait, including the chronic pain Danny carried privately and the loss that ended his life. It is a son's effort to tell the whole truth about the man he admired.

Who was Danny Gans?

Danny Gans was a singer, comedian, and impressionist who became one of the biggest headliners in Las Vegas and was named Entertainer of the Year twelve times. Before entertainment, he was drafted by the White Sox organization, until a severed Achilles ended his baseball career and sent him toward the stage, where he became known as the Man of Many Voices.

How did Danny Gans die?

Danny Gans died in 2009 at age 52. His death was accidental, connected to prescription medication he was taking for chronic pain. Voices: The Danny Gans Story explores this honestly, presenting his story as both a tribute and a cautionary reminder about the risks of pain treatment for the millions of people who live with chronic pain every day.

How do you make a documentary about your own family?

Filmmakers documenting their own family often face a tension between honoring someone and telling the truth about them. In Voices: The Danny Gans Story, Andrew Gans chose to include painful discoveries about his father and to put himself in the film. The honest version, he found, made his father more of a hero, not less, because audiences connect with people who are human and flawed.

About the Film and the People:

Voices: The Danny Gans Story. Written and directed by Andrew Davies Gans, the documentary tells the story of his father, Danny Gans, the Las Vegas entertainer known as the Man of Many Voices. What began as a tribute became an honest portrait of a beloved performer, including the chronic pain he carried privately and the loss that ended his life.

Danny Gans. A singer, comedian, and impressionist who became one of Las Vegas's biggest headliners, named Entertainer of the Year twelve times. Before entertainment, he was drafted by the White Sox organization, until a severed Achilles ended his baseball career.

The Girl Who Wore Freedom. Christian Taylor's documentary about Normandy and the people liberated on D-Day, the film her son's unexpected assignment helped set in motion.

About Documentary First:

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned:

Documentary First Episode 280 with Andrew Gans: https://pod.fo/e/433e78

Voices: The Danny Gans Story, documentary directed by Andrew Davies Gans

The Girl Who Wore Freedom, documentary directed by Christian Taylor

Christian Taylor on IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm3041250/

Listen and Follow:

Documentary First everywhere you listen: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

Support the show

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect:

Documentary First on all platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

]]>25461418-628c-4c45-8201-38d37d5867f9Wed, 24 Jun 2026 22:00:00 -050008:14falsefullDanny Gans: The Man of Many Voices Who Lost His OwnDanny Gans: The Man of Many Voices Who Lost His OwnHow do you tell the truth about your own father when the whole world knew him as the Man of Many Voices?

Danny Gans could become almost anyone on stage. He was the first headliner in Las Vegas to sell a $100 ticket, and for years his shows sold out night after night. Offstage, he was living with chronic pain he kept close to his chest. When his son, Andrew Davies Gans, set out to make a film about him, he planned an inspirational story about an athlete who reinvented himself. Then he started learning things about his father he had never known.

In Episode 280, Christian Taylor sits down with Andrew Davies Gans, director and producer of Voices: The Danny Gans Story, his first documentary as a director. Andrew lost his father and his own dream of a baseball career in the same month, turned to acting and screenwriting, and went on to produce about a dozen films before he felt ready to direct. On the 10th anniversary of his father's death, he decided that if Las Vegas would not remember Danny, he would make a film that did.

Andrew talks about filming the first interviews with his mom, losing investors when COVID shut the production down for more than a year, and becoming a father himself in the middle of making a film about his own dad. He shares the advice comedian Louie Anderson gave him about telling a story the hard way, and how he ended up putting himself and his family in front of the camera. He explains why he built a key moment of the film around his father's on-stage performance of the Scent of a Woman speech, and why, after many sleepless nights, he decided to tell the truth about Danny's chronic pain. As Andrew puts it, "I think he's more of a hero when you realize that he's human."

CHAPTERS

0:00 Losing his father and his baseball dream in the same month

2:09 From a Major League dream to filmmaking: a son finds his father's story

5:34 Three generations of dreamers: the grandfather, the Catskills, and a family that reinvents itself

7:22 The White Sox draft, a severed Achilles, and Danny's rise to the Man of Many Voices

10:54 Why Andrew made the film: a 10th anniversary, a teaser, and a COVID shutdown

14:17 Trailer: Voices: The Danny Gans Story, the $100 ticket legend, and a word from Virgil Films

18:27 Rebuilding after COVID, and becoming a father mid-production

20:42 Choosing vulnerability: the decision to put himself in the film

22:57 Louie Anderson and the choice to tell the story the hard way

26:30 The hardest truth: the Al Pacino 'Scent of a Woman' edit, chronic pain, and one of millions

35:20 First-time filmmaking lessons: why you shouldn't be 100% prepared

38:16 Inside the edit room: movie magic and a writing credit for the editor

41:48 The Vegas voices: Tony Orlando, Donny Osmond, and Steve Wynn

48:37 What's next: narrative films, the festival run, and distribution

52:37 DocuView Deja View: Shuffle and Searching for Sugar Man

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Who was Danny Gans?

Danny Gans was a singer, actor and impressionist billed as the Man of Many Voices. A former baseball player whose career ended with a torn Achilles tendon, he turned his gift for voices and comedy into a Las Vegas career, headlining theaters built for him at the Mirage and later the Encore.

What is Voices: The Danny Gans Story about?

Voices: The Danny Gans Story is a documentary about the Las Vegas entertainer, directed by his son, Andrew Davies Gans. The first half follows Danny's rise from baseball to the Strip. The second half turns personal, as Andrew wrestles on camera with how much of his father's private struggle with chronic pain to reveal, while becoming a father himself.

How did Danny Gans die?

Danny Gans died on May 1, 2009, at age 52, at his home in Henderson, Nevada. The coroner ruled his death an adverse reaction to the prescription painkiller hydromorphone, combined with a pre-existing heart condition, and stated it was not related to drug abuse. In the film, his son explores the chronic pain his father lived with and the treatment he received for it.

How do you make a documentary about your own family?

Andrew Davies Gans started by interviewing his mother and cutting that interview into a teaser to raise money. He planned an inspirational biography, but the film changed as he learned more. His advice is to accept that you will never be 100% prepared, stay open in interviews instead of sticking to your question list, and let the story you find replace the story you planned.

DOCUVIEW DÉJÀ VU PICKS

Andrew's picks:

  • Searching for Sugar Man (2012), the story of a musician whose forgotten album found a huge audience in another country
  • Shuffle, a documentary about fraud in the drug rehabilitation industry, not yet released at the time of recording

SPONSORED BY VIRGIL FILMS ENTERTAINMENT

This episode is brought to you by Virgil Films Entertainment, distributor of Super Size Me and the Oscar-nominated Restrepo, with over 25 years of distribution experience. https://virgilfilms.com

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/433e78

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Andrew Davies Gans

Director and Producer, Glanzrock Productions

Andrew Davies Gans grew up in Las Vegas and Los Angeles and was drafted to play professional baseball out of high school before a third labrum tear ended his career. He turned to acting, then screenwriting, then producing, and has produced about a dozen films. Voices: The Danny Gans Story is his directorial debut. He premiered the film at Dances With Films in Los Angeles and took it to about a dozen festivals, including the Austin Film Festival, the Julien Dubuque International Film Festival and the San Luis Obispo International Film Festival. His next project is a scripted film.

Website

Instagram

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-davies-gans

Glanzrock Productions on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/p/Glanzrock-Productions-100063642647635/

ABOUT DANNY GANS

Danny Gans was a Las Vegas singer, actor and impressionist known as the Man of Many Voices. Steve Wynn built theaters for him at the Mirage and later at the Encore. He died in 2009 at the age of 52.

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>How do you tell the truth about your own father when the whole world knew him as the Man of Many Voices?

Danny Gans could become almost anyone on stage. He was the first headliner in Las Vegas to sell a $100 ticket, and for years his shows sold out night after night. Offstage, he was living with chronic pain he kept close to his chest. When his son, Andrew Davies Gans, set out to make a film about him, he planned an inspirational story about an athlete who reinvented himself. Then he started learning things about his father he had never known.

In Episode 280, Christian Taylor sits down with Andrew Davies Gans, director and producer of Voices: The Danny Gans Story, his first documentary as a director. Andrew lost his father and his own dream of a baseball career in the same month, turned to acting and screenwriting, and went on to produce about a dozen films before he felt ready to direct. On the 10th anniversary of his father's death, he decided that if Las Vegas would not remember Danny, he would make a film that did.

Andrew talks about filming the first interviews with his mom, losing investors when COVID shut the production down for more than a year, and becoming a father himself in the middle of making a film about his own dad. He shares the advice comedian Louie Anderson gave him about telling a story the hard way, and how he ended up putting himself and his family in front of the camera. He explains why he built a key moment of the film around his father's on-stage performance of the Scent of a Woman speech, and why, after many sleepless nights, he decided to tell the truth about Danny's chronic pain. As Andrew puts it, "I think he's more of a hero when you realize that he's human."

CHAPTERS

0:00 Losing his father and his baseball dream in the same month

2:09 From a Major League dream to filmmaking: a son finds his father's story

5:34 Three generations of dreamers: the grandfather, the Catskills, and a family that reinvents itself

7:22 The White Sox draft, a severed Achilles, and Danny's rise to the Man of Many Voices

10:54 Why Andrew made the film: a 10th anniversary, a teaser, and a COVID shutdown

14:17 Trailer: Voices: The Danny Gans Story, the $100 ticket legend, and a word from Virgil Films

18:27 Rebuilding after COVID, and becoming a father mid-production

20:42 Choosing vulnerability: the decision to put himself in the film

22:57 Louie Anderson and the choice to tell the story the hard way

26:30 The hardest truth: the Al Pacino 'Scent of a Woman' edit, chronic pain, and one of millions

35:20 First-time filmmaking lessons: why you shouldn't be 100% prepared

38:16 Inside the edit room: movie magic and a writing credit for the editor

41:48 The Vegas voices: Tony Orlando, Donny Osmond, and Steve Wynn

48:37 What's next: narrative films, the festival run, and distribution

52:37 DocuView Deja View: Shuffle and Searching for Sugar Man

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Who was Danny Gans?

Danny Gans was a singer, actor and impressionist billed as the Man of Many Voices. A former baseball player whose career ended with a torn Achilles tendon, he turned his gift for voices and comedy into a Las Vegas career, headlining theaters built for him at the Mirage and later the Encore.

What is Voices: The Danny Gans Story about?

Voices: The Danny Gans Story is a documentary about the Las Vegas entertainer, directed by his son, Andrew Davies Gans. The first half follows Danny's rise from baseball to the Strip. The second half turns personal, as Andrew wrestles on camera with how much of his father's private struggle with chronic pain to reveal, while becoming a father himself.

How did Danny Gans die?

Danny Gans died on May 1, 2009, at age 52, at his home in Henderson, Nevada. The coroner ruled his death an adverse reaction to the prescription painkiller hydromorphone, combined with a pre-existing heart condition, and stated it was not related to drug abuse. In the film, his son explores the chronic pain his father lived with and the treatment he received for it.

How do you make a documentary about your own family?

Andrew Davies Gans started by interviewing his mother and cutting that interview into a teaser to raise money. He planned an inspirational biography, but the film changed as he learned more. His advice is to accept that you will never be 100% prepared, stay open in interviews instead of sticking to your question list, and let the story you find replace the story you planned.

DOCUVIEW DÉJÀ VU PICKS

Andrew's picks:

  • Searching for Sugar Man (2012), the story of a musician whose forgotten album found a huge audience in another country
  • Shuffle, a documentary about fraud in the drug rehabilitation industry, not yet released at the time of recording

SPONSORED BY VIRGIL FILMS ENTERTAINMENT

This episode is brought to you by Virgil Films Entertainment, distributor of Super Size Me and the Oscar-nominated Restrepo, with over 25 years of distribution experience. https://virgilfilms.com

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/433e78

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Andrew Davies Gans

Director and Producer, Glanzrock Productions

Andrew Davies Gans grew up in Las Vegas and Los Angeles and was drafted to play professional baseball out of high school before a third labrum tear ended his career. He turned to acting, then screenwriting, then producing, and has produced about a dozen films. Voices: The Danny Gans Story is his directorial debut. He premiered the film at Dances With Films in Los Angeles and took it to about a dozen festivals, including the Austin Film Festival, the Julien Dubuque International Film Festival and the San Luis Obispo International Film Festival. His next project is a scripted film.

Website

Instagram

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-davies-gans

Glanzrock Productions on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/p/Glanzrock-Productions-100063642647635/

ABOUT DANNY GANS

Danny Gans was a Las Vegas singer, actor and impressionist known as the Man of Many Voices. Steve Wynn built theaters for him at the Mirage and later at the Encore. He died in 2009 at the age of 52.

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>a80f7888-f445-4c65-8bdd-cb6bb5eb41d0Thu, 18 Jun 2026 05:00:00 -050055:32falsefull280280When Is Silence Wisdom and When Is It Complicity?When Is Silence Wisdom and When Is It Complicity?When does refusing to repeat a lie become complicity in it?

The hardest question in documentary filmmaking is not how to find the truth. It is how to handle a lie. When a false story is already loose in the world, you have two choices that look almost identical on the page: refuse to repeat it, or amplify it by debunking it. The discipline of knowing which is which can decide whether your film tells the truth or makes the lie stronger.

In this Deep Dive on Documentary First Episode 279 with Brian Pocrass, host Christian Taylor digs into the question Brian asked on tape about how much oxygen you give a lie. The conversation took thirty minutes to arrive there, but the question turns out to be the spine of every documentary that touches a contested story. This episode traces that question through C.S. Lewis’s The Screwtape Letters, Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s life under the Nazi regime, Alexander Solzhenitsyn’s 1974 essay Live Not By Lies, and a two thousand year old paradox in the book of Proverbs.

The spine of the episode is Brian’s question on tape: "The question is, how much oxygen do you give it?" That question runs straight into a paradox the rabbis of the Talmud spent centuries arguing over. Proverbs 26:4 says do not answer a fool according to his folly. Proverbs 26:5, the very next verse, says answer a fool according to his folly. The Talmudic resolution maps directly onto the filmmaker’s dilemma: the stakes determine the answer. Christian closes the episode with her own test, drawn from her film The Girl Who Wore Freedom: the story of Michel de Vallavieille, the French farmer shot in the back by an American paratrooper on D-Day, and the famous Band of Brothers rumor she refused to put on screen.

In this episode, Christian explores:

  • Why every production company wanted Brian Pocrass to tell a different version of Heather O’Rourke’s story than the one he ended up making
  • The C.S. Lewis principle from The Screwtape Letters that the devil cares more about attention than belief
  • How debunking a conspiracy theory can give the conspiracy a brand new piece of footage to point at
  • The two thousand year old paradox in Proverbs 26:4-5 and how the Talmudic rabbis resolved it
  • Why the Talmud’s answer is sacred versus mundane stakes, and what that means for documentary filmmakers
  • The Michel de Vallavieille story from Christian’s film The Girl Who Wore Freedom
  • The Band of Brothers rumor about Bill Guarnere that Christian refused to put on screen
  • The two questions every documentary filmmaker has to weigh before they amplify a story

Chapters

0:00 C.S. Lewis, the Devil, and Brian Pocrass's Question

0:33 How Much Oxygen Do You Give a Lie?

1:38 The Screwtape Letters and the Devil's Currency

2:35 Bonhoeffer: Silence in the Face of Evil Is Evil Itself

3:38 Solzhenitsyn's Live Not By Lies and Proverbs 26

5:10 The Girl Who Wore Freedom: Bill Guarnere and My Own Test

6:24 The Question I Leave You With

Frequently Asked Questions

When does debunking a lie make it stronger?

Researchers at Data and Society documented this dynamic in a 2018 study called The Oxygen of Amplification. Repeating a false claim in order to refute it gives the claim attention, repeats the language, and trains the algorithm to surface it more. Britannica describes this dynamic as adding oxygen to the fire of misinformation. For documentary filmmakers, this means a debunking film about a conspiracy theory can leave viewers more familiar with the conspiracy than with the truth.

What did Dietrich Bonhoeffer say about silence?

Bonhoeffer’s most famous line on the subject is silence in the face of evil is itself evil; not to speak is to speak; not to act is to act. Bonhoeffer was a German pastor in the 1930s who watched the German church surrender to the Nazi regime. He spent his adult life arguing against the silence of fellow pastors. The Nazis executed him in April 1945. His writings on costly discipleship remain among the most cited works of twentieth century theology.

What is Alexander Solzhenitsyn’s Live Not By Lies about?

Live Not By Lies is the essay Solzhenitsyn released on the day the KGB arrested and deported him in 1974. He argues that while a single person cannot stop a lie from being told, every person can refuse to repeat it. The refusal itself is the action. The essay is one of the foundational moral texts of the dissident movement against Soviet totalitarianism and remains widely cited in discussions of personal moral resistance.

How do the rabbis of the Talmud resolve Proverbs 26:4 and 26:5?

Proverbs 26:4 says do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself. Proverbs 26:5 says answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes. The Talmudic resolution is that the two verses apply to different kinds of stakes. When the fool is talking about something sacred, you answer. When the fool is talking about something mundane, you do not. The wisdom is in knowing which kind of stakes you are facing.

How do documentary filmmakers handle conspiracy theories about their subjects?

There is no industry standard. Each filmmaker has to weigh the specific story. Some choose to confront the conspiracy directly and risk amplifying it. Others refuse to give the conspiracy screen time and risk being accused of avoidance. The discipline is to ask what the documentary makes more solid in the world and who the actual audience is: the people who already believe the lie, or the people who deserve the truth.

About the Source Episode

Documentary First Episode 279 with Brian Pocrass aired on June 9, 2026. Brian is an attorney based in Los Angeles and the producer of She Was Here, the 2026 documentary about the life and death of Heather O’Rourke. The film features Heather’s family debunking the Poltergeist curse rumor that has surrounded her death for almost forty years.

Episode link: https://pod.fo/e/427c08

About The Girl Who Wore Freedom

The Girl Who Wore Freedom is Christian Taylor’s documentary about the children of Sainte-Marie-du-Mont, France, and the American GIs who liberated their town on D-Day, June 6, 1944. The film centers on Danielle Patrix Van Den Heede, whose family hid GIs in the days after the invasion, and Michel de Vallavieille, the young farmer at Brecourt Manor who was shot in the back by an American paratrooper on D-Day and went on to build the Utah Beach Museum and become the mayor of Sainte-Marie-du-Mont.

Website: https://thegirlwhoworefreedom.com

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned

  • She Was Here, directed by Nick Bailey, produced by Brian Pocrass (2026)
  • The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis (1942)
  • Dietrich Bonhoeffer (1906-1945), German pastor and theologian
  • Live Not By Lies by Alexander Solzhenitsyn (1974 essay)
  • Proverbs 26:4-5
  • Talmud, Shabbat 30b
  • The Girl Who Wore Freedom, directed and produced by Christian Taylor: https://thegirlwhoworefreedom.com
  • Band of Brothers by Stephen Ambrose (1992 book and 2001 HBO miniseries)
  • The Oxygen of Amplification, Whitney Phillips, Data and Society Research Institute (2018)

Listen and Follow

Documentary First on all podcast apps: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

Support the show

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect

Documentary First on all platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Connect with Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

]]>When does refusing to repeat a lie become complicity in it?

The hardest question in documentary filmmaking is not how to find the truth. It is how to handle a lie. When a false story is already loose in the world, you have two choices that look almost identical on the page: refuse to repeat it, or amplify it by debunking it. The discipline of knowing which is which can decide whether your film tells the truth or makes the lie stronger.

In this Deep Dive on Documentary First Episode 279 with Brian Pocrass, host Christian Taylor digs into the question Brian asked on tape about how much oxygen you give a lie. The conversation took thirty minutes to arrive there, but the question turns out to be the spine of every documentary that touches a contested story. This episode traces that question through C.S. Lewis’s The Screwtape Letters, Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s life under the Nazi regime, Alexander Solzhenitsyn’s 1974 essay Live Not By Lies, and a two thousand year old paradox in the book of Proverbs.

The spine of the episode is Brian’s question on tape: "The question is, how much oxygen do you give it?" That question runs straight into a paradox the rabbis of the Talmud spent centuries arguing over. Proverbs 26:4 says do not answer a fool according to his folly. Proverbs 26:5, the very next verse, says answer a fool according to his folly. The Talmudic resolution maps directly onto the filmmaker’s dilemma: the stakes determine the answer. Christian closes the episode with her own test, drawn from her film The Girl Who Wore Freedom: the story of Michel de Vallavieille, the French farmer shot in the back by an American paratrooper on D-Day, and the famous Band of Brothers rumor she refused to put on screen.

In this episode, Christian explores:

  • Why every production company wanted Brian Pocrass to tell a different version of Heather O’Rourke’s story than the one he ended up making
  • The C.S. Lewis principle from The Screwtape Letters that the devil cares more about attention than belief
  • How debunking a conspiracy theory can give the conspiracy a brand new piece of footage to point at
  • The two thousand year old paradox in Proverbs 26:4-5 and how the Talmudic rabbis resolved it
  • Why the Talmud’s answer is sacred versus mundane stakes, and what that means for documentary filmmakers
  • The Michel de Vallavieille story from Christian’s film The Girl Who Wore Freedom
  • The Band of Brothers rumor about Bill Guarnere that Christian refused to put on screen
  • The two questions every documentary filmmaker has to weigh before they amplify a story

Chapters

0:00 C.S. Lewis, the Devil, and Brian Pocrass's Question

0:33 How Much Oxygen Do You Give a Lie?

1:38 The Screwtape Letters and the Devil's Currency

2:35 Bonhoeffer: Silence in the Face of Evil Is Evil Itself

3:38 Solzhenitsyn's Live Not By Lies and Proverbs 26

5:10 The Girl Who Wore Freedom: Bill Guarnere and My Own Test

6:24 The Question I Leave You With

Frequently Asked Questions

When does debunking a lie make it stronger?

Researchers at Data and Society documented this dynamic in a 2018 study called The Oxygen of Amplification. Repeating a false claim in order to refute it gives the claim attention, repeats the language, and trains the algorithm to surface it more. Britannica describes this dynamic as adding oxygen to the fire of misinformation. For documentary filmmakers, this means a debunking film about a conspiracy theory can leave viewers more familiar with the conspiracy than with the truth.

What did Dietrich Bonhoeffer say about silence?

Bonhoeffer’s most famous line on the subject is silence in the face of evil is itself evil; not to speak is to speak; not to act is to act. Bonhoeffer was a German pastor in the 1930s who watched the German church surrender to the Nazi regime. He spent his adult life arguing against the silence of fellow pastors. The Nazis executed him in April 1945. His writings on costly discipleship remain among the most cited works of twentieth century theology.

What is Alexander Solzhenitsyn’s Live Not By Lies about?

Live Not By Lies is the essay Solzhenitsyn released on the day the KGB arrested and deported him in 1974. He argues that while a single person cannot stop a lie from being told, every person can refuse to repeat it. The refusal itself is the action. The essay is one of the foundational moral texts of the dissident movement against Soviet totalitarianism and remains widely cited in discussions of personal moral resistance.

How do the rabbis of the Talmud resolve Proverbs 26:4 and 26:5?

Proverbs 26:4 says do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself. Proverbs 26:5 says answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes. The Talmudic resolution is that the two verses apply to different kinds of stakes. When the fool is talking about something sacred, you answer. When the fool is talking about something mundane, you do not. The wisdom is in knowing which kind of stakes you are facing.

How do documentary filmmakers handle conspiracy theories about their subjects?

There is no industry standard. Each filmmaker has to weigh the specific story. Some choose to confront the conspiracy directly and risk amplifying it. Others refuse to give the conspiracy screen time and risk being accused of avoidance. The discipline is to ask what the documentary makes more solid in the world and who the actual audience is: the people who already believe the lie, or the people who deserve the truth.

About the Source Episode

Documentary First Episode 279 with Brian Pocrass aired on June 9, 2026. Brian is an attorney based in Los Angeles and the producer of She Was Here, the 2026 documentary about the life and death of Heather O’Rourke. The film features Heather’s family debunking the Poltergeist curse rumor that has surrounded her death for almost forty years.

Episode link: https://pod.fo/e/427c08

About The Girl Who Wore Freedom

The Girl Who Wore Freedom is Christian Taylor’s documentary about the children of Sainte-Marie-du-Mont, France, and the American GIs who liberated their town on D-Day, June 6, 1944. The film centers on Danielle Patrix Van Den Heede, whose family hid GIs in the days after the invasion, and Michel de Vallavieille, the young farmer at Brecourt Manor who was shot in the back by an American paratrooper on D-Day and went on to build the Utah Beach Museum and become the mayor of Sainte-Marie-du-Mont.

Website: https://thegirlwhoworefreedom.com

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned

  • She Was Here, directed by Nick Bailey, produced by Brian Pocrass (2026)
  • The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis (1942)
  • Dietrich Bonhoeffer (1906-1945), German pastor and theologian
  • Live Not By Lies by Alexander Solzhenitsyn (1974 essay)
  • Proverbs 26:4-5
  • Talmud, Shabbat 30b
  • The Girl Who Wore Freedom, directed and produced by Christian Taylor: https://thegirlwhoworefreedom.com
  • Band of Brothers by Stephen Ambrose (1992 book and 2001 HBO miniseries)
  • The Oxygen of Amplification, Whitney Phillips, Data and Society Research Institute (2018)

Listen and Follow

Documentary First on all podcast apps: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

Support the show

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect

Documentary First on all platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Connect with Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

]]>2786c656-dec3-4d80-a883-895d9b0406e5Thu, 11 Jun 2026 00:30:00 -050007:35falsefullHeather O'Rourke Documentary: The Film Her Family TrustedHeather O'Rourke Documentary: The Film Her Family TrustedWas the Poltergeist curse real, or did the world get Heather O'Rourke's story wrong for 38 Years?

On February 1, 1988, Heather O'Rourke died at twelve years old. For nearly four decades the world has filled that silence with rumors. She Was Here, the new documentary produced by Brian Pocrass and directed by Nick Bailey, is the first authorized account of what actually happened, told by Heather's mother Kathleen, her sister Tammy, and the people who knew and worked with her.

In Episode 279, Christian sits down with producer Brian Pocrass to talk about how She Was Here came together, what it cost to earn the trust of a grieving family that had been burned by Hollywood for nearly four decades, and why he believes Heather's death was completely preventable. Brian is a USC Film School graduate with fifteen years in the entertainment industry who later became an attorney. He calls this his first documentary.

At the heart of She Was Here is a question Brian poses to himself as a producer: how much oxygen do you give a lie? Heather's death from a misdiagnosed intestinal condition, treated as Crohn's disease, became, in the tabloid press of the late 1980s, the foundation of what came to be called the Poltergeist curse. Brian's film is a working filmmaker's answer to that question, anchored in legal depositions, family archives, and the testimony of the people who loved her. It is also, as he tells Christian, a film about loss.

IN THIS EPISODE, YOU'LL LEARN:

  • Why Heather O'Rourke's family broke nearly four decades of silence to participate in She Was Here
  • How a misdiagnosis took Heather's life at twelve, and what her mother wants every parent to know about medical decisions
  • How Brian used his legal background to read sealed depositions from the 1991 lawsuit and uncover the real story
  • Why directors like Gary Sherman and stars like Craig T. Nelson and JoBeth Williams broke their "Heather Shield" silence for this film
  • How Brian defines the "illusion of documentary filmmaking" and the rhythm that holds a non-fiction story together

CHAPTERS

0:00 A Film About Loss, Not a Child Star

2:23 A Nine-Year-Old's Childhood Crush

9:49 Earning a Grieving Family's Trust

15:27 Co-Stars and Classmates Remember Her

19:07 How Tabloid Rumors Took Hold

22:00 A Salon Beside the Poltergeist III Set

29:59 A Preventable Misdiagnosis

33:35 Reading the Lawsuit Depositions

35:58 The Illusion of Documentary Filmmaking

39:58 Shaping the Final 20 Minutes

42:33 Time, Gatekeepers and Spielberg

47:47 DocuView Deja View: Adrienne

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

How did Heather O'Rourke really die?

Heather O'Rourke died on February 1, 1988, in San Diego at twelve years old. The cause was septic shock from an acute bowel obstruction, ultimately traced to a congenital intestinal abnormality that had been misdiagnosed as Crohn's disease. The misdiagnosis is the central tragedy of She Was Here — producer Brian Pocrass calls her death "completely preventable" with the correct diagnosis and a simple surgery. The film's authorized account ends decades of conspiracy speculation about her death.

Is the Poltergeist curse real?

The "Poltergeist curse" is a tabloid-era rumor that grew from the deaths of four Poltergeist trilogy cast members across the 1980s. Heather O'Rourke's family, who appear throughout She Was Here, reject the curse narrative as a painful misrepresentation of their daughter and sister. The documentary presents the authorized medical and legal record: Heather's death was a misdiagnosed congenital condition, not a curse.

Where can I watch the Heather O'Rourke documentary?

She Was Here is available to stream on Amazon Prime Video, Apple TV, and Fandango at Home. The 85-minute documentary was released on February 24, 2026, distributed in the United States by Virgil Films Entertainment and internationally by Indiecan Entertainment. It is directed by Nick Bailey and produced by Brian Pocrass, Reese Eveneshen, and Avi Federgreen.

DOCUVIEW DÉJÀ VU PICKS

Brian's recommendation:

• Adrienne (2021), directed by Andy Ostroy. A documentary about the murdered filmmaker, screenwriter, and actress Adrienne Shelly (Waitress), made by her husband. Brian was struck by the third-act moment when Ostroy confronts his wife's killer in prison. Streaming on HBO Max.

SPONSORED BY

This episode is brought to you by Virgil Films Entertainment, distributor of Super Size Me and the Oscar-nominated Restrepo, with over 25 years of distribution experience. Virgil Films Entertainment

ABOUT BRIAN POCRASS

Brian Pocrass is a USC Film School graduate and the producer of She Was Here. After fifteen years working in the entertainment industry across television, film, and digital media, he made a career shift to law and now practices as an attorney at POCRASS & DE LOS REYES, LLP in Los Angeles. She Was Here marks his return to filmmaking, driven by a personal connection to Heather O'Rourke's story that began when he was nine years old.

Connect with Brian: Instagram @brianpocrass · LinkedIn linkedin.com/in/brianpocrass

ABOUT SHE WAS HERE

Watch: Apple TV · Amazon Prime Video · Fandango at Home

Follow: Instagram @shewasheredoc

ABOUT OUR MYSTERY GUEST: CAROLYN CARUSO JOLLETTE

Carolyn Caruso Jollette appeared on this episode as Christian's mystery guest with a remarkable first-hand connection to the Poltergeist III production. She was a Chicago Honey Bear during the 1979 to 1980 NFL season. After her time on the sidelines, Carolyn opened a full-service salon at Mid America Plaza in Oak Brook, Illinois, the very building where Poltergeist III filmed its underground garage scenes. She was on the first floor when the on-set explosion happened and gives an eyewitness account in this episode.

Get the book: Missing from the Sidelines on Amazon

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED

• Adrienne Shelly Foundation

• Missing from the Sidelines: The Untold Stories of the Chicago Honey Bears NFL Cheerleaders (2018) by Renee Halverson Wright and Carolyn Caruso Jollette

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen to this episode on your preferred app: https://pod.fo/e/427c08

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT

Documentary First on every platform: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Connect with Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

]]>Was the Poltergeist curse real, or did the world get Heather O'Rourke's story wrong for 38 Years?

On February 1, 1988, Heather O'Rourke died at twelve years old. For nearly four decades the world has filled that silence with rumors. She Was Here, the new documentary produced by Brian Pocrass and directed by Nick Bailey, is the first authorized account of what actually happened, told by Heather's mother Kathleen, her sister Tammy, and the people who knew and worked with her.

In Episode 279, Christian sits down with producer Brian Pocrass to talk about how She Was Here came together, what it cost to earn the trust of a grieving family that had been burned by Hollywood for nearly four decades, and why he believes Heather's death was completely preventable. Brian is a USC Film School graduate with fifteen years in the entertainment industry who later became an attorney. He calls this his first documentary.

At the heart of She Was Here is a question Brian poses to himself as a producer: how much oxygen do you give a lie? Heather's death from a misdiagnosed intestinal condition, treated as Crohn's disease, became, in the tabloid press of the late 1980s, the foundation of what came to be called the Poltergeist curse. Brian's film is a working filmmaker's answer to that question, anchored in legal depositions, family archives, and the testimony of the people who loved her. It is also, as he tells Christian, a film about loss.

IN THIS EPISODE, YOU'LL LEARN:

  • Why Heather O'Rourke's family broke nearly four decades of silence to participate in She Was Here
  • How a misdiagnosis took Heather's life at twelve, and what her mother wants every parent to know about medical decisions
  • How Brian used his legal background to read sealed depositions from the 1991 lawsuit and uncover the real story
  • Why directors like Gary Sherman and stars like Craig T. Nelson and JoBeth Williams broke their "Heather Shield" silence for this film
  • How Brian defines the "illusion of documentary filmmaking" and the rhythm that holds a non-fiction story together

CHAPTERS

0:00 A Film About Loss, Not a Child Star

2:23 A Nine-Year-Old's Childhood Crush

9:49 Earning a Grieving Family's Trust

15:27 Co-Stars and Classmates Remember Her

19:07 How Tabloid Rumors Took Hold

22:00 A Salon Beside the Poltergeist III Set

29:59 A Preventable Misdiagnosis

33:35 Reading the Lawsuit Depositions

35:58 The Illusion of Documentary Filmmaking

39:58 Shaping the Final 20 Minutes

42:33 Time, Gatekeepers and Spielberg

47:47 DocuView Deja View: Adrienne

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

How did Heather O'Rourke really die?

Heather O'Rourke died on February 1, 1988, in San Diego at twelve years old. The cause was septic shock from an acute bowel obstruction, ultimately traced to a congenital intestinal abnormality that had been misdiagnosed as Crohn's disease. The misdiagnosis is the central tragedy of She Was Here — producer Brian Pocrass calls her death "completely preventable" with the correct diagnosis and a simple surgery. The film's authorized account ends decades of conspiracy speculation about her death.

Is the Poltergeist curse real?

The "Poltergeist curse" is a tabloid-era rumor that grew from the deaths of four Poltergeist trilogy cast members across the 1980s. Heather O'Rourke's family, who appear throughout She Was Here, reject the curse narrative as a painful misrepresentation of their daughter and sister. The documentary presents the authorized medical and legal record: Heather's death was a misdiagnosed congenital condition, not a curse.

Where can I watch the Heather O'Rourke documentary?

She Was Here is available to stream on Amazon Prime Video, Apple TV, and Fandango at Home. The 85-minute documentary was released on February 24, 2026, distributed in the United States by Virgil Films Entertainment and internationally by Indiecan Entertainment. It is directed by Nick Bailey and produced by Brian Pocrass, Reese Eveneshen, and Avi Federgreen.

DOCUVIEW DÉJÀ VU PICKS

Brian's recommendation:

• Adrienne (2021), directed by Andy Ostroy. A documentary about the murdered filmmaker, screenwriter, and actress Adrienne Shelly (Waitress), made by her husband. Brian was struck by the third-act moment when Ostroy confronts his wife's killer in prison. Streaming on HBO Max.

SPONSORED BY

This episode is brought to you by Virgil Films Entertainment, distributor of Super Size Me and the Oscar-nominated Restrepo, with over 25 years of distribution experience. Virgil Films Entertainment

ABOUT BRIAN POCRASS

Brian Pocrass is a USC Film School graduate and the producer of She Was Here. After fifteen years working in the entertainment industry across television, film, and digital media, he made a career shift to law and now practices as an attorney at POCRASS & DE LOS REYES, LLP in Los Angeles. She Was Here marks his return to filmmaking, driven by a personal connection to Heather O'Rourke's story that began when he was nine years old.

Connect with Brian: Instagram @brianpocrass · LinkedIn linkedin.com/in/brianpocrass

ABOUT SHE WAS HERE

Watch: Apple TV · Amazon Prime Video · Fandango at Home

Follow: Instagram @shewasheredoc

ABOUT OUR MYSTERY GUEST: CAROLYN CARUSO JOLLETTE

Carolyn Caruso Jollette appeared on this episode as Christian's mystery guest with a remarkable first-hand connection to the Poltergeist III production. She was a Chicago Honey Bear during the 1979 to 1980 NFL season. After her time on the sidelines, Carolyn opened a full-service salon at Mid America Plaza in Oak Brook, Illinois, the very building where Poltergeist III filmed its underground garage scenes. She was on the first floor when the on-set explosion happened and gives an eyewitness account in this episode.

Get the book: Missing from the Sidelines on Amazon

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED

• Adrienne Shelly Foundation

• Missing from the Sidelines: The Untold Stories of the Chicago Honey Bears NFL Cheerleaders (2018) by Renee Halverson Wright and Carolyn Caruso Jollette

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen to this episode on your preferred app: https://pod.fo/e/427c08

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT

Documentary First on every platform: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Connect with Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

]]>8ab1f719-eb3c-41a6-9d88-1db104ae2b65Thu, 04 Jun 2026 05:00:00 -050052:04falsefull279279Solitude or Loneliness? Why Creative People Burn OutSolitude or Loneliness? Why Creative People Burn OutWhat is the difference between solitude and loneliness, and why does every creative person need to understand it?

There are two kinds of being alone in creative work, and they are not the same thing. One makes the work great. The other wears you down to nothing. The difference between solitude and loneliness is the difference between sustainable creative life and creative burnout, and most of us never learn to tell them apart.

In this Deep Dive, host Christian Taylor takes a single line from her conversation with filmmaker Armin Korsos, that filmmaking can be a very lonely process, and explores what it actually means to be alone in creative work, and what turns the hard kind of alone into the kind that makes the work matter.

In this Deep Dive on Documentary First Episode 278 with Armin Korsos, Christian draws a line between loneliness and solitude. Loneliness is the desert. Solitude is the garden. The work, she argues, is learning to turn one into the other, and then finding the people who remind you that the loneliness was never a sign of failure. It was just part of the work.

Anchored in Henri Nouwen's image of the desert and the garden, and C.S. Lewis on friendship from The Four Loves, this episode is for filmmakers, writers, voice actors, painters, small business owners, and anyone who does the quiet work alone and needs to be reminded they are not the only one.

In this episode, Christian explores:

  • The difference between solitude and loneliness, and why creative people confuse them
  • Why the most creative moments come from being alone, and why the work needs the quiet
  • The second kind of alone: the lonely math of budgets, fundraising, and payroll
  • Why that weight is not a sign you are failing, but a sign you are doing the work
  • What both kinds of alone are forging in you at the same time
  • Why you cannot offer anything in a room of peers until the time alone has happened
  • How finding your people can feel like an oasis in the desert
  • What community actually does for the work, and what it does not do
  • Why you are built for both solitude and community, and need both

CHAPTERS

0:00 The Two Kinds of Alone

0:20 Armin Korsos on the Lonely Process

1:13 The Outside View vs. the Inside Reality

1:36 The First Alone: Solitude as the Creative Garden

3:38 The Second Alone: The Lonely Math of Filmmaking

5:28 Finding Your People: The Oasis in the Desert

7:26 What Community Does for the Work

Frequently Asked Questions

What is the difference between solitude and loneliness?

Solitude is chosen, generative time alone that creative work requires. It is where you hear what a story is asking for and find your own voice. Loneliness is the heavier, often involuntary weight of carrying the hard parts of the work by yourself, the budgets, the rejections, the decisions no one else can make for you. The writer Henri Nouwen framed the spiritual task as converting the desert of loneliness into a garden of solitude.

Why is filmmaking so lonely?

From the outside, filmmaking looks like the festival, the poster, and the applause. From the inside, most of the work is one person alone with the thing: the edit, the budget, the fundraising, the difficult conversations with crew. The finished film never shows the months spent alone with a spreadsheet, so the loneliness stays invisible. It is a normal part of the work, not a sign of failure.

What did Henri Nouwen say about loneliness and solitude?

In Reaching Out (1975), Nouwen wrote that to live a spiritual life we must first find the courage to enter into the desert of our loneliness and to change it by gentle and persistent efforts into a garden of solitude. He described the movement from loneliness to solitude as the beginning of any spiritual life.

How do creative people deal with isolation?

By holding two things at once: protecting the solitude the work requires, and building a community that reminds them the loneliness is shared. The time alone is what makes the work. The people are what keep you the kind of person who can keep making it. You are built for both, and you need both.

About the Topic and Sources

Henri Nouwen, Reaching Out: The Three Movements of the Spiritual Life (1975)

The Dutch priest, professor, and writer whose image of the desert of loneliness and the garden of solitude anchors this episode. His exact words: “To live a spiritual life we must first find the courage to enter into the desert of our loneliness and to change it by gentle and persistent efforts into a garden of solitude.”

C.S. Lewis, The Four Loves (1960)

Lewis on how friendship is born. The moment one person says to another, “What? You too? I thought I was the only one.” Christian connects this to meeting her friend Sarah in 1989 over a shared love of Lewis, Winnie the Pooh, and the Bible.

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned

Documentary First Episode 278 with Armin Korsos: https://pod.fo/e/41b633

Henri Nouwen, Reaching Out: The Three Movements of the Spiritual Life (1975):

https://www.henrinouwen.org/books/reaching-out

C.S. Lewis, The Four Loves (1960):

https://www.cslewis.com/four-types-of-love/

Caymanite (Armin Korsos): https://www.caymanite.us

Filmmaker Friday Chicago: https://www.filmmakerfridays.org

The Utah Beach Museum, Normandy: https://www.utah-beach.com

Listen and Follow

Listen on your favorite podcast app: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

Support the show: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect

Documentary First on all platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

]]>What is the difference between solitude and loneliness, and why does every creative person need to understand it?

There are two kinds of being alone in creative work, and they are not the same thing. One makes the work great. The other wears you down to nothing. The difference between solitude and loneliness is the difference between sustainable creative life and creative burnout, and most of us never learn to tell them apart.

In this Deep Dive, host Christian Taylor takes a single line from her conversation with filmmaker Armin Korsos, that filmmaking can be a very lonely process, and explores what it actually means to be alone in creative work, and what turns the hard kind of alone into the kind that makes the work matter.

In this Deep Dive on Documentary First Episode 278 with Armin Korsos, Christian draws a line between loneliness and solitude. Loneliness is the desert. Solitude is the garden. The work, she argues, is learning to turn one into the other, and then finding the people who remind you that the loneliness was never a sign of failure. It was just part of the work.

Anchored in Henri Nouwen's image of the desert and the garden, and C.S. Lewis on friendship from The Four Loves, this episode is for filmmakers, writers, voice actors, painters, small business owners, and anyone who does the quiet work alone and needs to be reminded they are not the only one.

In this episode, Christian explores:

  • The difference between solitude and loneliness, and why creative people confuse them
  • Why the most creative moments come from being alone, and why the work needs the quiet
  • The second kind of alone: the lonely math of budgets, fundraising, and payroll
  • Why that weight is not a sign you are failing, but a sign you are doing the work
  • What both kinds of alone are forging in you at the same time
  • Why you cannot offer anything in a room of peers until the time alone has happened
  • How finding your people can feel like an oasis in the desert
  • What community actually does for the work, and what it does not do
  • Why you are built for both solitude and community, and need both

CHAPTERS

0:00 The Two Kinds of Alone

0:20 Armin Korsos on the Lonely Process

1:13 The Outside View vs. the Inside Reality

1:36 The First Alone: Solitude as the Creative Garden

3:38 The Second Alone: The Lonely Math of Filmmaking

5:28 Finding Your People: The Oasis in the Desert

7:26 What Community Does for the Work

Frequently Asked Questions

What is the difference between solitude and loneliness?

Solitude is chosen, generative time alone that creative work requires. It is where you hear what a story is asking for and find your own voice. Loneliness is the heavier, often involuntary weight of carrying the hard parts of the work by yourself, the budgets, the rejections, the decisions no one else can make for you. The writer Henri Nouwen framed the spiritual task as converting the desert of loneliness into a garden of solitude.

Why is filmmaking so lonely?

From the outside, filmmaking looks like the festival, the poster, and the applause. From the inside, most of the work is one person alone with the thing: the edit, the budget, the fundraising, the difficult conversations with crew. The finished film never shows the months spent alone with a spreadsheet, so the loneliness stays invisible. It is a normal part of the work, not a sign of failure.

What did Henri Nouwen say about loneliness and solitude?

In Reaching Out (1975), Nouwen wrote that to live a spiritual life we must first find the courage to enter into the desert of our loneliness and to change it by gentle and persistent efforts into a garden of solitude. He described the movement from loneliness to solitude as the beginning of any spiritual life.

How do creative people deal with isolation?

By holding two things at once: protecting the solitude the work requires, and building a community that reminds them the loneliness is shared. The time alone is what makes the work. The people are what keep you the kind of person who can keep making it. You are built for both, and you need both.

About the Topic and Sources

Henri Nouwen, Reaching Out: The Three Movements of the Spiritual Life (1975)

The Dutch priest, professor, and writer whose image of the desert of loneliness and the garden of solitude anchors this episode. His exact words: “To live a spiritual life we must first find the courage to enter into the desert of our loneliness and to change it by gentle and persistent efforts into a garden of solitude.”

C.S. Lewis, The Four Loves (1960)

Lewis on how friendship is born. The moment one person says to another, “What? You too? I thought I was the only one.” Christian connects this to meeting her friend Sarah in 1989 over a shared love of Lewis, Winnie the Pooh, and the Bible.

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned

Documentary First Episode 278 with Armin Korsos: https://pod.fo/e/41b633

Henri Nouwen, Reaching Out: The Three Movements of the Spiritual Life (1975):

https://www.henrinouwen.org/books/reaching-out

C.S. Lewis, The Four Loves (1960):

https://www.cslewis.com/four-types-of-love/

Caymanite (Armin Korsos): https://www.caymanite.us

Filmmaker Friday Chicago: https://www.filmmakerfridays.org

The Utah Beach Museum, Normandy: https://www.utah-beach.com

Listen and Follow

Listen on your favorite podcast app: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

Support the show: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect

Documentary First on all platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

]]>99a114f2-99c1-4baf-a9f0-a6b1129322b2Thu, 28 May 2026 05:00:00 -050010:05falsefullAdapt or Die: A Working Filmmaker on AI in 2026Adapt or Die: A Working Filmmaker on AI in 2026Adapt or die. What does that actually look like for a working filmmaker?

Chicago documentary filmmaker Armin Korsos has a working filmmaker's answer to the question every documentarian is wrestling with right now. If you're not using AI, you will be losing work to people who do. In this conversation, Armin walks through how he turned 20 hours of pre-production paperwork into 30 minutes, how he uses AI image generation to send 40 pitches in the time it used to take to send 8, and why he believes the only currency that still matters in this industry is original ideas.

In Episode 278, Christian sits down with Armin Korsos, founder of the Chicago production company Caymanite and co-founder of Filmmaker Friday Chicago, a film community event series that grew from 50 people at its first event to over 1,700 unique attendees in its first year.

Born in the Cayman Islands to Hungarian parents, raised in the Chicago suburbs, and trained at Columbia College Chicago, Armin uses commercial production work to fund the documentary and narrative projects he cares about.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How Armin found a local approaching age 90 on Cayman Brac with no phone number, no email, and no address
  • How a former Premier of the Cayman Islands recorded the narration for Brac in an airport parking lot
  • Whether film school is still worth it in 2026, and what to ask yourself before going
  • Why Armin says luck is preparation meeting opportunity, and what that has to do with documentary filmmaking

Chapters

0:00 The "Adapt or Die" AI Warning for Filmmakers

1:11 Why Filmmaking Is a Lonely Process

2:35 Armin's Journey: Cayman Islands to Hungary to Chicago

6:00 Where Are the Cayman Islands? Grand Cayman vs Cayman Brac

7:46 Why the Artistic Ceiling Is Lower in Hungary

12:25 Is Film School Worth It in 2026?

18:38 How to Fund Passion Projects With Commercial Work

23:09 Automating Pre-Production Paperwork With AI

28:33 Nvidia CEO: Original Ideas Are the Only Currency Left

32:00 Why You Must Be the Creator to Own the IP

34:03 Brac: A 15-Minute Conservation Documentary

38:29 Finding a Subject With No Phone, No Email, No Address

43:19 Recording Narration With the Former Premier in a Parking Lot

46:33 Scaling a Film Community: 50 to 1,700 in a Year

50:26 DocuView Deja View: This Week's Recommendations

Frequently Asked Questions

How are working filmmakers actually using AI in 2026?

Chicago filmmaker Armin Korsos uses AI to automate pre-production paperwork (location releases, talent releases, non-disclosure agreements, call sheets, invoicing) so the time saved can go to creative work that requires human attention. He also uses AI image generation for pitch decks, allowing him to send 40 pitches in the time it used to take to send 8. He spends 15 to 20 minutes every night learning new AI tools and updates.

What did the CEO of Nvidia say about original ideas and AI?

Jensen Huang, CEO of Nvidia, has argued that AI has equalized the playing field by removing the gatekeeping of technical knowledge. In Armin Korsos's words, paraphrasing Huang: the differentiator between who is successful and who is not in the future is who has the best original ideas. The technical skill barriers are falling. What remains scarce is the original creative input.

Can AI own the intellectual property of work it generates?

Armin Korsos cautions filmmakers that the creator of a work is the one who owns the intellectual property. As he puts it, you must be the creative input or Claude has the creative IP. AI cannot do the creative work for you if you want to own what you make. This is a working filmmaker's practical answer to a question that is still being litigated in courts.

What is Brac about?

Brac is a 15-minute conservation documentary directed by Armin Korsos and edited by Ethan Edmonds, shot over three trips to Cayman Brac, a small island of about 2,000 people in the Cayman chain. The film explores the intersection of land rights, land management, the decline of the native brown booby bird, and the future of the island. It features a local named Tennyson Scott, approaching age 90 and narration by James Ryan, former Premier of the Cayman Islands.

What is Filmmaker Friday Chicago?

Filmmaker Friday Chicago is a film community event series co-founded by Armin Korsos and Parker Foster. It hosts mixers and panel discussions at venues across Chicago, including the Chicago Cultural Center in partnership with the Chicago Film Commission. The first event drew 50 people. By the fourth event the room held over 200. In its first year the series hosted over 1,700 unique attendees, all free of charge, which Armin describes as unofficially the largest consistent film community event in Chicago.

DocuView Deja View Picks

Armin's pick: Game Hawker, directed by Josh Izenberg. A 25-minute conservation documentary sponsored by Patagonia and publicly available on YouTube. About birds.

Christian's pick: The Billionaire, the Butler and the Boyfriend (2023, Netflix), directed by Baptiste Etchegaray and Maxime Bonnet, which brings a story recorded only on audio to life with blurred, security-camera-style reenactments.

Sponsored by Virgil Films Entertainment

Documentary First is sponsored by Virgil Films Entertainment. Visit https://virgilfilms.com to learn more about their work distributing documentary films.

About Armin Korsos

Armin Korsos is a Chicago-based documentary and commercial director, founder of the production company Caymanite, and co-founder of Filmmaker Friday Chicago. Born in the Cayman Islands to Hungarian parents and raised in the Chicago suburbs, Armin trained at Columbia College Chicago, where he graduated in 2020. His most recent film, Brac, is a 15-minute conservation documentary that finished post-production in January 2026 and is now in its festival run.

Connect with Armin:


About Filmmaker Friday Chicago

Filmmaker Friday also runs in New York City. To attend an upcoming event or learn more, visit https://www.filmmakerfridays.org or follow https://www.instagram.com/filmmakerfridaychicago.

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned

  • Brac (2026), directed by Armin Korsos, edited by Ethan Edmonds, narrated by James Ryan: https://vimeo.com/1151723297/b4692bf91b
  • Columbia College Chicago: https://www.colum.edu

Listen & Follow

Listen on your favorite podcast app: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

Support the show

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect

Documentary First on all platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

]]>Adapt or die. What does that actually look like for a working filmmaker?

Chicago documentary filmmaker Armin Korsos has a working filmmaker's answer to the question every documentarian is wrestling with right now. If you're not using AI, you will be losing work to people who do. In this conversation, Armin walks through how he turned 20 hours of pre-production paperwork into 30 minutes, how he uses AI image generation to send 40 pitches in the time it used to take to send 8, and why he believes the only currency that still matters in this industry is original ideas.

In Episode 278, Christian sits down with Armin Korsos, founder of the Chicago production company Caymanite and co-founder of Filmmaker Friday Chicago, a film community event series that grew from 50 people at its first event to over 1,700 unique attendees in its first year.

Born in the Cayman Islands to Hungarian parents, raised in the Chicago suburbs, and trained at Columbia College Chicago, Armin uses commercial production work to fund the documentary and narrative projects he cares about.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How Armin found a local approaching age 90 on Cayman Brac with no phone number, no email, and no address
  • How a former Premier of the Cayman Islands recorded the narration for Brac in an airport parking lot
  • Whether film school is still worth it in 2026, and what to ask yourself before going
  • Why Armin says luck is preparation meeting opportunity, and what that has to do with documentary filmmaking

Chapters

0:00 The "Adapt or Die" AI Warning for Filmmakers

1:11 Why Filmmaking Is a Lonely Process

2:35 Armin's Journey: Cayman Islands to Hungary to Chicago

6:00 Where Are the Cayman Islands? Grand Cayman vs Cayman Brac

7:46 Why the Artistic Ceiling Is Lower in Hungary

12:25 Is Film School Worth It in 2026?

18:38 How to Fund Passion Projects With Commercial Work

23:09 Automating Pre-Production Paperwork With AI

28:33 Nvidia CEO: Original Ideas Are the Only Currency Left

32:00 Why You Must Be the Creator to Own the IP

34:03 Brac: A 15-Minute Conservation Documentary

38:29 Finding a Subject With No Phone, No Email, No Address

43:19 Recording Narration With the Former Premier in a Parking Lot

46:33 Scaling a Film Community: 50 to 1,700 in a Year

50:26 DocuView Deja View: This Week's Recommendations

Frequently Asked Questions

How are working filmmakers actually using AI in 2026?

Chicago filmmaker Armin Korsos uses AI to automate pre-production paperwork (location releases, talent releases, non-disclosure agreements, call sheets, invoicing) so the time saved can go to creative work that requires human attention. He also uses AI image generation for pitch decks, allowing him to send 40 pitches in the time it used to take to send 8. He spends 15 to 20 minutes every night learning new AI tools and updates.

What did the CEO of Nvidia say about original ideas and AI?

Jensen Huang, CEO of Nvidia, has argued that AI has equalized the playing field by removing the gatekeeping of technical knowledge. In Armin Korsos's words, paraphrasing Huang: the differentiator between who is successful and who is not in the future is who has the best original ideas. The technical skill barriers are falling. What remains scarce is the original creative input.

Can AI own the intellectual property of work it generates?

Armin Korsos cautions filmmakers that the creator of a work is the one who owns the intellectual property. As he puts it, you must be the creative input or Claude has the creative IP. AI cannot do the creative work for you if you want to own what you make. This is a working filmmaker's practical answer to a question that is still being litigated in courts.

What is Brac about?

Brac is a 15-minute conservation documentary directed by Armin Korsos and edited by Ethan Edmonds, shot over three trips to Cayman Brac, a small island of about 2,000 people in the Cayman chain. The film explores the intersection of land rights, land management, the decline of the native brown booby bird, and the future of the island. It features a local named Tennyson Scott, approaching age 90 and narration by James Ryan, former Premier of the Cayman Islands.

What is Filmmaker Friday Chicago?

Filmmaker Friday Chicago is a film community event series co-founded by Armin Korsos and Parker Foster. It hosts mixers and panel discussions at venues across Chicago, including the Chicago Cultural Center in partnership with the Chicago Film Commission. The first event drew 50 people. By the fourth event the room held over 200. In its first year the series hosted over 1,700 unique attendees, all free of charge, which Armin describes as unofficially the largest consistent film community event in Chicago.

DocuView Deja View Picks

Armin's pick: Game Hawker, directed by Josh Izenberg. A 25-minute conservation documentary sponsored by Patagonia and publicly available on YouTube. About birds.

Christian's pick: The Billionaire, the Butler and the Boyfriend (2023, Netflix), directed by Baptiste Etchegaray and Maxime Bonnet, which brings a story recorded only on audio to life with blurred, security-camera-style reenactments.

Sponsored by Virgil Films Entertainment

Documentary First is sponsored by Virgil Films Entertainment. Visit https://virgilfilms.com to learn more about their work distributing documentary films.

About Armin Korsos

Armin Korsos is a Chicago-based documentary and commercial director, founder of the production company Caymanite, and co-founder of Filmmaker Friday Chicago. Born in the Cayman Islands to Hungarian parents and raised in the Chicago suburbs, Armin trained at Columbia College Chicago, where he graduated in 2020. His most recent film, Brac, is a 15-minute conservation documentary that finished post-production in January 2026 and is now in its festival run.

Connect with Armin:


About Filmmaker Friday Chicago

Filmmaker Friday also runs in New York City. To attend an upcoming event or learn more, visit https://www.filmmakerfridays.org or follow https://www.instagram.com/filmmakerfridaychicago.

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned

  • Brac (2026), directed by Armin Korsos, edited by Ethan Edmonds, narrated by James Ryan: https://vimeo.com/1151723297/b4692bf91b
  • Columbia College Chicago: https://www.colum.edu

Listen & Follow

Listen on your favorite podcast app: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

Support the show

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect

Documentary First on all platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

]]>2efdce66-ef90-44f5-bf24-87362ddf444cThu, 21 May 2026 05:00:00 -050055:10falsefull278278Why the Boring Work Is the Most Important WorkWhy the Boring Work Is the Most Important WorkWhat does a $1.5 billion AI lawsuit have in common with your unwritten will?

In September 2025, Anthropic agreed to pay $1.5 billion to settle the largest copyright lawsuit in U.S. history. The reason was simple. They built first and cleared rights later. Documentary filmmakers have been making the same mistake for decades. And in this Deep Dive, host Christian Taylor argues that the lesson runs deeper than music licensing or AI training data. It is the same lesson Jesus taught in Luke 14, the same lesson surgeons learn from pre-op checklists, and the same lesson Christian is living through right now as the primary caregiver to her father with Alzheimer's disease. Plan ahead. Count the cost. Do the hard things first.

In this Deep Dive on Documentary First Episode 277 with veteran ARC Producer Teddy Cannon, Christian unpacks the deeper meaning of Teddy's central argument: bring the unglamorous work in at the top of every project, or pay catastrophically downstream. Anchored in Luke 14:28 and Teddy's case study of a $50,000 to $70,000 Jackson 5 music clearance fee, this episode traces a single principle from filmmaking to surgery to aviation to the Anthropic AI copyright lawsuit and finally to estate planning and end-of-life care.

In this episode, Christian explores:

  • How a $50,000 to $70,000 Jackson 5 music clearance fee can sink an entire nine-episode film series
  • Why every documentary needs Errors and Omissions Insurance and a Rights Bible before distribution
  • What surgeons, pilots, and contractors have in common with filmmakers who skip pre-production planning
  • What it is like to become the primary caregiver to a parent with Alzheimer's disease when no estate plan was ever written
  • Why doing the boring planning work upfront is not unloving, and what the wise ones do that everyone else avoids

Chapters:

0:00 The 2,000-Year-Old Lesson

0:15 Intro: Bringing Gold to the Surface

0:41 What Is an ARC Producer?

1:35 The Jackson 5 Sticker Shock

2:12 The "Boring Person" at the Top

3:04 From Surgeons to Pilots: Skipping the Checklist

3:42 AI Companies and the Billion Dollar Mistake

4:26 The Parable of the Tower

5:06 Counting the Cost

5:55 A Personal Deep Dive: Caregiving and Planning

7:20 Being the "Editor" of a Life

7:37 Final Thought: Look Anyway

8:09 Final Ask: One Share

Frequently Asked Questions:

What is an ARC Producer in filmmaking?

An ARC Producer, short for Archival Rights and Clearance Producer, is the person on a film production team responsible for tracking down third-party footage, music, photographs, and documents, and securing the legal permissions to use them. ARC Producers manage licensing, clearance logs, and the Rights Bible that every film needs to secure Errors and Omissions Insurance and distribution. Historically, ARC Producers are brought in during post-production, but bringing them in during pre-production protects filmmakers from catastrophic licensing costs at the end of a project.

Why should filmmakers bring an ARC Producer into pre-production?

Bringing an ARC Producer into pre-production allows filmmakers to budget for rights and clearances before footage is shot or music is selected. This prevents the most expensive mistake in documentary filmmaking, which is locking a final cut around archival material or songs that turn out to cost tens of thousands of dollars to license. Pre-production clearance also strengthens storytelling by ensuring filmmakers know which materials are realistically available and affordable from the start.

What can Anthropic's $1.5 billion AI copyright lawsuit teach filmmakers about clearance?

In September 2025, Anthropic agreed to pay $1.5 billion to settle Bartz v. Anthropic, the largest copyright settlement in U.S. history. The case alleged Anthropic trained its AI on pirated books without permission. The lesson for filmmakers is identical to the one ARC Producers have been giving for decades. Building a product or film first and clearing rights later is more expensive than clearing rights upfront, no matter the scale of the company.

What does Luke 14:28 say about counting the cost?

In Luke 14, verses 28 through 30, Jesus tells a brief parable about a man who wants to build a tower. The parable asks whether the builder will first sit down and estimate the cost to see if he has enough money to complete it. The point is that laying a foundation you cannot afford to finish leaves the unfinished structure visible to everyone. The principle applies to filmmaking, estate planning, and any major project that requires resources to complete.

What can caregivers and filmmakers learn from each other about planning ahead?

Both filmmakers and family caregivers face the same trap. The unglamorous planning work, whether a music clearance memo, an estate plan, or a will, is easy to put off because it asks people to look at things they would rather not look at. Filmmakers avoid thinking about the end of a budget. Families avoid thinking about the end of a life. In both cases, the people who do the boring work upfront protect the people who come after them.

About the Topic:

Bartz v. Anthropic

Bartz v. Anthropic is the class-action copyright lawsuit filed by authors Andrea Bartz, Charles Graeber, and Kirk Wallace Johnson against Anthropic AI for training its Claude language model on pirated books downloaded from Library Genesis and Pirate Library Mirror. The case settled in September 2025 for $1.5 billion, the largest copyright settlement in U.S. history.

Teddy Cannon and Crux Entertainment

Teddy Cannon is a veteran Archival Rights and Clearance Producer and the founder of Crux Entertainment, a production company specializing in documentary clearances. He is also building 3P Sync's ArcWorks, a software platform for managing rights and clearances across film productions. Teddy was the featured guest on Documentary First Episode 277, the source episode for this Deep Dive.

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned

Documentary First Episode 277 with Teddy Cannon: https://www.documentaryfirst.com/podcast

Crux Entertainment (Teddy Cannon's company): https://www.cruxentertainmentinc.com

3P Sync and ArcWorks: https://3psync.com

Bartz v. Anthropic settlement details (Authors Guild): https://authorsguild.org/advocacy/artificial-intelligence/what-authors-need-to-know-about-the-anthropic-settlement/

Archival Producers Alliance (APA): https://www.archivalproducers.org

Luke 14:28 to 30 (Bible Gateway): https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+14:28-30&version=NIV

Listen and Follow

YouTube: @DocumentaryFirst

Wherever you get your podcasts: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

Support the show

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connet:

Documentary First on all platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Connect with Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

]]>What does a $1.5 billion AI lawsuit have in common with your unwritten will?

In September 2025, Anthropic agreed to pay $1.5 billion to settle the largest copyright lawsuit in U.S. history. The reason was simple. They built first and cleared rights later. Documentary filmmakers have been making the same mistake for decades. And in this Deep Dive, host Christian Taylor argues that the lesson runs deeper than music licensing or AI training data. It is the same lesson Jesus taught in Luke 14, the same lesson surgeons learn from pre-op checklists, and the same lesson Christian is living through right now as the primary caregiver to her father with Alzheimer's disease. Plan ahead. Count the cost. Do the hard things first.

In this Deep Dive on Documentary First Episode 277 with veteran ARC Producer Teddy Cannon, Christian unpacks the deeper meaning of Teddy's central argument: bring the unglamorous work in at the top of every project, or pay catastrophically downstream. Anchored in Luke 14:28 and Teddy's case study of a $50,000 to $70,000 Jackson 5 music clearance fee, this episode traces a single principle from filmmaking to surgery to aviation to the Anthropic AI copyright lawsuit and finally to estate planning and end-of-life care.

In this episode, Christian explores:

  • How a $50,000 to $70,000 Jackson 5 music clearance fee can sink an entire nine-episode film series
  • Why every documentary needs Errors and Omissions Insurance and a Rights Bible before distribution
  • What surgeons, pilots, and contractors have in common with filmmakers who skip pre-production planning
  • What it is like to become the primary caregiver to a parent with Alzheimer's disease when no estate plan was ever written
  • Why doing the boring planning work upfront is not unloving, and what the wise ones do that everyone else avoids

Chapters:

0:00 The 2,000-Year-Old Lesson

0:15 Intro: Bringing Gold to the Surface

0:41 What Is an ARC Producer?

1:35 The Jackson 5 Sticker Shock

2:12 The "Boring Person" at the Top

3:04 From Surgeons to Pilots: Skipping the Checklist

3:42 AI Companies and the Billion Dollar Mistake

4:26 The Parable of the Tower

5:06 Counting the Cost

5:55 A Personal Deep Dive: Caregiving and Planning

7:20 Being the "Editor" of a Life

7:37 Final Thought: Look Anyway

8:09 Final Ask: One Share

Frequently Asked Questions:

What is an ARC Producer in filmmaking?

An ARC Producer, short for Archival Rights and Clearance Producer, is the person on a film production team responsible for tracking down third-party footage, music, photographs, and documents, and securing the legal permissions to use them. ARC Producers manage licensing, clearance logs, and the Rights Bible that every film needs to secure Errors and Omissions Insurance and distribution. Historically, ARC Producers are brought in during post-production, but bringing them in during pre-production protects filmmakers from catastrophic licensing costs at the end of a project.

Why should filmmakers bring an ARC Producer into pre-production?

Bringing an ARC Producer into pre-production allows filmmakers to budget for rights and clearances before footage is shot or music is selected. This prevents the most expensive mistake in documentary filmmaking, which is locking a final cut around archival material or songs that turn out to cost tens of thousands of dollars to license. Pre-production clearance also strengthens storytelling by ensuring filmmakers know which materials are realistically available and affordable from the start.

What can Anthropic's $1.5 billion AI copyright lawsuit teach filmmakers about clearance?

In September 2025, Anthropic agreed to pay $1.5 billion to settle Bartz v. Anthropic, the largest copyright settlement in U.S. history. The case alleged Anthropic trained its AI on pirated books without permission. The lesson for filmmakers is identical to the one ARC Producers have been giving for decades. Building a product or film first and clearing rights later is more expensive than clearing rights upfront, no matter the scale of the company.

What does Luke 14:28 say about counting the cost?

In Luke 14, verses 28 through 30, Jesus tells a brief parable about a man who wants to build a tower. The parable asks whether the builder will first sit down and estimate the cost to see if he has enough money to complete it. The point is that laying a foundation you cannot afford to finish leaves the unfinished structure visible to everyone. The principle applies to filmmaking, estate planning, and any major project that requires resources to complete.

What can caregivers and filmmakers learn from each other about planning ahead?

Both filmmakers and family caregivers face the same trap. The unglamorous planning work, whether a music clearance memo, an estate plan, or a will, is easy to put off because it asks people to look at things they would rather not look at. Filmmakers avoid thinking about the end of a budget. Families avoid thinking about the end of a life. In both cases, the people who do the boring work upfront protect the people who come after them.

About the Topic:

Bartz v. Anthropic

Bartz v. Anthropic is the class-action copyright lawsuit filed by authors Andrea Bartz, Charles Graeber, and Kirk Wallace Johnson against Anthropic AI for training its Claude language model on pirated books downloaded from Library Genesis and Pirate Library Mirror. The case settled in September 2025 for $1.5 billion, the largest copyright settlement in U.S. history.

Teddy Cannon and Crux Entertainment

Teddy Cannon is a veteran Archival Rights and Clearance Producer and the founder of Crux Entertainment, a production company specializing in documentary clearances. He is also building 3P Sync's ArcWorks, a software platform for managing rights and clearances across film productions. Teddy was the featured guest on Documentary First Episode 277, the source episode for this Deep Dive.

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned

Documentary First Episode 277 with Teddy Cannon: https://www.documentaryfirst.com/podcast

Crux Entertainment (Teddy Cannon's company): https://www.cruxentertainmentinc.com

3P Sync and ArcWorks: https://3psync.com

Bartz v. Anthropic settlement details (Authors Guild): https://authorsguild.org/advocacy/artificial-intelligence/what-authors-need-to-know-about-the-anthropic-settlement/

Archival Producers Alliance (APA): https://www.archivalproducers.org

Luke 14:28 to 30 (Bible Gateway): https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+14:28-30&version=NIV

Listen and Follow

YouTube: @DocumentaryFirst

Wherever you get your podcasts: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

Support the show

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connet:

Documentary First on all platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Connect with Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

]]>4d29c8f7-062f-4eba-9931-85ca9ac734c4Thu, 14 May 2026 15:00:00 -050008:45falsefullWhy Does One Documentary Clip Cost $70,000?Why Does One Documentary Clip Cost $70,000?What does the person who cleans up documentary licensing messes wish you had done before you shot a single frame?

Teddy Cannon has spent 10 years in what he calls the link in the production line, standing between the filmmakers, the legal team and every vendor whose footage, photos or music ends up in a film. His job is to make sure every third-party asset in a documentary is cleared before it ever lands on the editor's palette. And more than half the time, he says, he is brought in to clean up a mess.

In Episode 277, Christian Taylor sits down with Teddy, a veteran ARC Producer and the founder of Crux Entertainment, to talk about documentary licensing, fair use, and why the person who clears your footage belongs at the top of your project instead of the end. ARC is Teddy's name for a job the industry has quietly merged: the Archival Producer and the Clearance Producer in one role.

Teddy walks through a case he sketched out for a client: a nine-episode, for-profit music learning series that had already locked its edit before anyone asked about rights. The first 30 seconds of Jackson 5 performance footage alone, he estimated, would cost $50,000 to $70,000 to license, and fair use would not protect a series like that. Christian admits she learned the same lesson the hard way, by leaving clearance until the end of a project herself. Teddy explains why a photo of a statue in France is not automatically free to use, how fair use really works for documentaries, and why your E&O insurance depends on a fair use attorney's letter. He explains why a veteran archival producer is worth hiring, with the story of the small museums near Redding, California that let someone come in and digitize their collections to set the tone of 1972, and names a project he is especially proud of, Kiss the Future.

CHAPTERS

0:00 What Does an ARC Producer Do?

2:29 Who Owns the Footage in Your Film?

6:45 The $70,000 Jackson 5 Clip

9:21 How Does Fair Use Work?

12:13 What Does an ARC Producer Cost?

14:49 Finding Footage No One Has Seen

19:47 ArcWorks and Reaching Teddy

22:48 Yacht Rock and Kiss the Future

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What is an ARC Producer in documentary filmmaking?

ARC stands for Archival and Clearance Producer. Teddy Cannon explains that productions used to hire an archival producer to find footage and a separate clearance producer to secure the rights. Today the two jobs have melded into one. The ARC Producer finds the third-party footage, photos and music a film needs and makes sure every piece is cleared before it reaches the editor.

Why is music licensing so expensive for a documentary?

Music often carries several layers of rights at once. In Teddy Cannon's example, a performance clip of the Jackson 5 needed both the video and the audio licensed, and the music kept playing after the picture cut away. Music is also very difficult to use under fair use. Teddy estimated $50,000 to $70,000 for that one 30-second clip, before any producer or attorney fees.

Can I use a photo of a statue or a painting in my documentary?

Not automatically. A statue or other artwork is owned by somebody, and a photo of it in your film may need to be cleared. Teddy Cannon recommends having your clearance person in the pre-production meeting so the crew watches the frame, or sends a screen grab to be checked, instead of hunting down the owner of a painting months later in post.

How does fair use work for documentary filmmakers?

Fair use lets documentaries use copyrighted material when it serves a clear purpose in the story. Teddy Cannon's rule of thumb: if you are talking about a duck, there is a duck on screen. Your interview or narration has to be speaking to what the audience is seeing. You also need a fair use attorney, because E&O insurance requires the attorney's letter clearing the cut.

How much does it cost to hire an ARC Producer?

According to Teddy Cannon, very experienced ARC Producers ask around $3,500 a week, some veterans who simply want to work charge about $2,500 a week, and junior producers cost less. He recommends hiring someone senior who can spot an expensive problem immediately. Filmmakers can post jobs on Staff Me Up or look through the Archival Producers Alliance, then hire on a weekly rate.

DOCUVIEW DÉJÀ VU PICKS

Teddy's picks:


SPONSORED BY VIRGIL FILMS ENTERTAINMENT

This episode is brought to you by Virgil Films Entertainment, distributor of Super Size Me and the Oscar-nominated Restrepo, with over 25 years of distribution experience. https://virgilfilms.com

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/413f3a

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Teddy Cannon

ARC Producer and Founder, Crux Entertainment

Teddy Cannon is a veteran media producer who oversees legal rights and clearances, and a tech entrepreneur. He spent years as a segment producer on shows like World's Scariest, pulling together the material to tell each story, before moving into clearance work, where he has spent the last 10 years. He runs Crux Entertainment, and through his company 3P Sync he is building ArcWorks, software for tracking third-party assets from intake to deliverables. This is Teddy's second conversation on Documentary First, after Episode 244.

Email: teddycannon@gmail.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/teddy-cannon-52447314/

ABOUT CRUX ENTERTAINMENT AND 3P SYNC

Crux Entertainment is Teddy Cannon's clearance and legal support company for documentary, scripted and other film and television projects. 3P Sync is building arcWorks, a workspace that helps archival and clearance teams track assets, rights, releases and budgets in one place instead of spreadsheets.

Crux Entertainment: https://www.cruxentertainmentinc.com

3P Sync: https://www.3psync.com

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>What does the person who cleans up documentary licensing messes wish you had done before you shot a single frame?

Teddy Cannon has spent 10 years in what he calls the link in the production line, standing between the filmmakers, the legal team and every vendor whose footage, photos or music ends up in a film. His job is to make sure every third-party asset in a documentary is cleared before it ever lands on the editor's palette. And more than half the time, he says, he is brought in to clean up a mess.

In Episode 277, Christian Taylor sits down with Teddy, a veteran ARC Producer and the founder of Crux Entertainment, to talk about documentary licensing, fair use, and why the person who clears your footage belongs at the top of your project instead of the end. ARC is Teddy's name for a job the industry has quietly merged: the Archival Producer and the Clearance Producer in one role.

Teddy walks through a case he sketched out for a client: a nine-episode, for-profit music learning series that had already locked its edit before anyone asked about rights. The first 30 seconds of Jackson 5 performance footage alone, he estimated, would cost $50,000 to $70,000 to license, and fair use would not protect a series like that. Christian admits she learned the same lesson the hard way, by leaving clearance until the end of a project herself. Teddy explains why a photo of a statue in France is not automatically free to use, how fair use really works for documentaries, and why your E&O insurance depends on a fair use attorney's letter. He explains why a veteran archival producer is worth hiring, with the story of the small museums near Redding, California that let someone come in and digitize their collections to set the tone of 1972, and names a project he is especially proud of, Kiss the Future.

CHAPTERS

0:00 What Does an ARC Producer Do?

2:29 Who Owns the Footage in Your Film?

6:45 The $70,000 Jackson 5 Clip

9:21 How Does Fair Use Work?

12:13 What Does an ARC Producer Cost?

14:49 Finding Footage No One Has Seen

19:47 ArcWorks and Reaching Teddy

22:48 Yacht Rock and Kiss the Future

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What is an ARC Producer in documentary filmmaking?

ARC stands for Archival and Clearance Producer. Teddy Cannon explains that productions used to hire an archival producer to find footage and a separate clearance producer to secure the rights. Today the two jobs have melded into one. The ARC Producer finds the third-party footage, photos and music a film needs and makes sure every piece is cleared before it reaches the editor.

Why is music licensing so expensive for a documentary?

Music often carries several layers of rights at once. In Teddy Cannon's example, a performance clip of the Jackson 5 needed both the video and the audio licensed, and the music kept playing after the picture cut away. Music is also very difficult to use under fair use. Teddy estimated $50,000 to $70,000 for that one 30-second clip, before any producer or attorney fees.

Can I use a photo of a statue or a painting in my documentary?

Not automatically. A statue or other artwork is owned by somebody, and a photo of it in your film may need to be cleared. Teddy Cannon recommends having your clearance person in the pre-production meeting so the crew watches the frame, or sends a screen grab to be checked, instead of hunting down the owner of a painting months later in post.

How does fair use work for documentary filmmakers?

Fair use lets documentaries use copyrighted material when it serves a clear purpose in the story. Teddy Cannon's rule of thumb: if you are talking about a duck, there is a duck on screen. Your interview or narration has to be speaking to what the audience is seeing. You also need a fair use attorney, because E&O insurance requires the attorney's letter clearing the cut.

How much does it cost to hire an ARC Producer?

According to Teddy Cannon, very experienced ARC Producers ask around $3,500 a week, some veterans who simply want to work charge about $2,500 a week, and junior producers cost less. He recommends hiring someone senior who can spot an expensive problem immediately. Filmmakers can post jobs on Staff Me Up or look through the Archival Producers Alliance, then hire on a weekly rate.

DOCUVIEW DÉJÀ VU PICKS

Teddy's picks:


SPONSORED BY VIRGIL FILMS ENTERTAINMENT

This episode is brought to you by Virgil Films Entertainment, distributor of Super Size Me and the Oscar-nominated Restrepo, with over 25 years of distribution experience. https://virgilfilms.com

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/413f3a

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Teddy Cannon

ARC Producer and Founder, Crux Entertainment

Teddy Cannon is a veteran media producer who oversees legal rights and clearances, and a tech entrepreneur. He spent years as a segment producer on shows like World's Scariest, pulling together the material to tell each story, before moving into clearance work, where he has spent the last 10 years. He runs Crux Entertainment, and through his company 3P Sync he is building ArcWorks, software for tracking third-party assets from intake to deliverables. This is Teddy's second conversation on Documentary First, after Episode 244.

Email: teddycannon@gmail.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/teddy-cannon-52447314/

ABOUT CRUX ENTERTAINMENT AND 3P SYNC

Crux Entertainment is Teddy Cannon's clearance and legal support company for documentary, scripted and other film and television projects. 3P Sync is building arcWorks, a workspace that helps archival and clearance teams track assets, rights, releases and budgets in one place instead of spreadsheets.

Crux Entertainment: https://www.cruxentertainmentinc.com

3P Sync: https://www.3psync.com

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>b1ee1b19-9bfa-43a8-be79-4bc49baff28cThu, 07 May 2026 09:00:00 -050025:27falsefull277277Could a Documentary Save Your Kid's Life?Could a Documentary Save Your Kid's Life?What if the documentaries no streaming platform will buy are the ones that could save your kid's life?

Today's children may be the first generation in American history to live shorter lives than their parents. That's the central argument of The 100-Year Effect, a documentary I watched at the Julian Dubuque International Film Festival the same weekend I watched two other films that turned out to be telling me the same urgent story.

In this Deep Dive on Documentary First Episode 276 with Robin Canfield, host Christian Taylor unpacks what three independent documentaries (The 100-Year Effect, Ali Eats America, and Déjà Vu) reveal about what corporations have done to our food, our farms, and our bodies. And she makes the case that purpose-driven documentaries are doing for our culture what investigative journalism has always done for our democracy. They shine a light into the dark places. They show us where we are sick. And right now, they are fighting for survival.

Anchored in Robin Canfield's framework from his book Purpose Driven Documentaries: A Field Guide to Creating Impact, this episode features a C.S. Lewis sermon delivered in Oxford in June 1941, a Bourdain-style culinary road trip born in a hospital room at Walter Reed, and an argument for why what we choose to watch is now a civic act.

In this episode, Christian explores:

  • Why today's children may be the first generation in American history to live shorter lives than their parents
  • What three independent documentaries have in common, and what they're trying to wake us up to
  • Why investigative journalism and purpose-driven documentary serve the same civic function
  • What C.S. Lewis preached in Oxford in June 1941, while bombs were falling on London
  • What corporate consolidation has done to American small family farms over the last four decades
  • What you can do, in less than five minutes, to help these films find an audience

CHAPTERS:

0:00 The first generation to live shorter lives than their parents

1:45 Show open

1:58 Robin Canfield, Actuality Abroad, and the spine of this episode

3:31 Film 1. The 100-Year Effect: what corporations have done to our bodies

4:25 Film 2. Ali Eats America: a sick kid, a map, and a Bourdain-style road trip

9:22 Film 3. Déjà Vu: American small family farmers and the slow consolidation

10:39 Three films, one story

11:24 C.S. Lewis on mud pies and the holiday at the sea

12:37 Documentaries as the immune system of a free culture

14:15 What you can do, and why it matters

15:11 We are far too easily pleased

Frequently Asked Questions:

What is the central argument of The 100-Year Effect?

The 100-Year Effect, directed by Bill Stuart, argues that today's children will be the first generation in American history to live shorter lives than their parents. The film features OHSU medical scientist Dr. Kent Thornburg, who traces this trend to corporate impacts on our food supply, prenatal nutrition, and environment over the last several decades. Six in ten American adults have a chronic disease, and the film argues this is not primarily a lifestyle problem.

What is purpose-driven documentary filmmaking?

Purpose-driven documentary is a term popularized by filmmaker Robin Canfield in his textbook Purpose Driven Documentaries: A Field Guide to Creating Impact. It refers to documentary work made primarily to create social, cultural, or civic impact rather than to maximize commercial return. Robin trains filmmakers through Actuality Abroad to tell the stories of changemakers, the people quietly doing good in places corporations and governments would rather not be seen.

What is Ali Eats America about?

Ali Eats America, directed by Greg Morris and Roush Niaghi, follows two-time teenage cancer survivor Ali Allouche as he travels across the United States visiting restaurants in 17 states. The project began in a pediatric ward at Walter Reed Military Medical Center, was inspired by Anthony Bourdain, and was funded through a GoFundMe campaign that Bourdain himself donated to.

What documentary won Best Documentary at the 2026 Julian Dubuque International Film Festival?

Déjà Vu, directed by Bedabrata Pain, won Best Documentary at the 2026 Julian Dubuque International Film Festival. The film traces the corporate consolidation of American small family farms over four decades, paralleled with the historic Indian farmers' protest movement.

Why are purpose-driven documentaries struggling for distribution?

Streaming platforms increasingly prioritize commercial returns and algorithmic engagement metrics, which favor entertainment-led content over investigative or impact-driven storytelling. Purpose-driven documentaries often address subjects that corporate sponsors and platforms find commercially uncomfortable, including chronic disease, food systems, agricultural consolidation, and the healthcare industry. Many of these films are now made on credit cards, GoFundMes, and personal savings.

About the Three Films:

The 100-Year Effect

Website: 100yeareffect.com - https://100yeareffect.com

Ali Eats America

Website: alieatsamerica.com - https://www.alieatsamerica.com/

Déjà Vu

Website: Déjà Vu - https://dejavu-the-movie.com/film-team/

About Documentary First:

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned:

- Purpose Driven Documentaries: A Field Guide to Creating Impact by Robin Canfield (Routledge, 2025)

- "The Weight of Glory" by C.S. Lewis, sermon delivered at Oxford on June 8, 1941

- Anthony Bourdain, Parts Unknown (CNN, 2013 to 2018)

- Actuality Abroad, the documentary study abroad program co-founded by Robin Canfield

Listen & Follow:

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

Support the show: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect:

Documentary First on all platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Connect with Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

]]>What if the documentaries no streaming platform will buy are the ones that could save your kid's life?

Today's children may be the first generation in American history to live shorter lives than their parents. That's the central argument of The 100-Year Effect, a documentary I watched at the Julian Dubuque International Film Festival the same weekend I watched two other films that turned out to be telling me the same urgent story.

In this Deep Dive on Documentary First Episode 276 with Robin Canfield, host Christian Taylor unpacks what three independent documentaries (The 100-Year Effect, Ali Eats America, and Déjà Vu) reveal about what corporations have done to our food, our farms, and our bodies. And she makes the case that purpose-driven documentaries are doing for our culture what investigative journalism has always done for our democracy. They shine a light into the dark places. They show us where we are sick. And right now, they are fighting for survival.

Anchored in Robin Canfield's framework from his book Purpose Driven Documentaries: A Field Guide to Creating Impact, this episode features a C.S. Lewis sermon delivered in Oxford in June 1941, a Bourdain-style culinary road trip born in a hospital room at Walter Reed, and an argument for why what we choose to watch is now a civic act.

In this episode, Christian explores:

  • Why today's children may be the first generation in American history to live shorter lives than their parents
  • What three independent documentaries have in common, and what they're trying to wake us up to
  • Why investigative journalism and purpose-driven documentary serve the same civic function
  • What C.S. Lewis preached in Oxford in June 1941, while bombs were falling on London
  • What corporate consolidation has done to American small family farms over the last four decades
  • What you can do, in less than five minutes, to help these films find an audience

CHAPTERS:

0:00 The first generation to live shorter lives than their parents

1:45 Show open

1:58 Robin Canfield, Actuality Abroad, and the spine of this episode

3:31 Film 1. The 100-Year Effect: what corporations have done to our bodies

4:25 Film 2. Ali Eats America: a sick kid, a map, and a Bourdain-style road trip

9:22 Film 3. Déjà Vu: American small family farmers and the slow consolidation

10:39 Three films, one story

11:24 C.S. Lewis on mud pies and the holiday at the sea

12:37 Documentaries as the immune system of a free culture

14:15 What you can do, and why it matters

15:11 We are far too easily pleased

Frequently Asked Questions:

What is the central argument of The 100-Year Effect?

The 100-Year Effect, directed by Bill Stuart, argues that today's children will be the first generation in American history to live shorter lives than their parents. The film features OHSU medical scientist Dr. Kent Thornburg, who traces this trend to corporate impacts on our food supply, prenatal nutrition, and environment over the last several decades. Six in ten American adults have a chronic disease, and the film argues this is not primarily a lifestyle problem.

What is purpose-driven documentary filmmaking?

Purpose-driven documentary is a term popularized by filmmaker Robin Canfield in his textbook Purpose Driven Documentaries: A Field Guide to Creating Impact. It refers to documentary work made primarily to create social, cultural, or civic impact rather than to maximize commercial return. Robin trains filmmakers through Actuality Abroad to tell the stories of changemakers, the people quietly doing good in places corporations and governments would rather not be seen.

What is Ali Eats America about?

Ali Eats America, directed by Greg Morris and Roush Niaghi, follows two-time teenage cancer survivor Ali Allouche as he travels across the United States visiting restaurants in 17 states. The project began in a pediatric ward at Walter Reed Military Medical Center, was inspired by Anthony Bourdain, and was funded through a GoFundMe campaign that Bourdain himself donated to.

What documentary won Best Documentary at the 2026 Julian Dubuque International Film Festival?

Déjà Vu, directed by Bedabrata Pain, won Best Documentary at the 2026 Julian Dubuque International Film Festival. The film traces the corporate consolidation of American small family farms over four decades, paralleled with the historic Indian farmers' protest movement.

Why are purpose-driven documentaries struggling for distribution?

Streaming platforms increasingly prioritize commercial returns and algorithmic engagement metrics, which favor entertainment-led content over investigative or impact-driven storytelling. Purpose-driven documentaries often address subjects that corporate sponsors and platforms find commercially uncomfortable, including chronic disease, food systems, agricultural consolidation, and the healthcare industry. Many of these films are now made on credit cards, GoFundMes, and personal savings.

About the Three Films:

The 100-Year Effect

Website: 100yeareffect.com - https://100yeareffect.com

Ali Eats America

Website: alieatsamerica.com - https://www.alieatsamerica.com/

Déjà Vu

Website: Déjà Vu - https://dejavu-the-movie.com/film-team/

About Documentary First:

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned:

- Purpose Driven Documentaries: A Field Guide to Creating Impact by Robin Canfield (Routledge, 2025)

- "The Weight of Glory" by C.S. Lewis, sermon delivered at Oxford on June 8, 1941

- Anthony Bourdain, Parts Unknown (CNN, 2013 to 2018)

- Actuality Abroad, the documentary study abroad program co-founded by Robin Canfield

Listen & Follow:

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

Support the show: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect:

Documentary First on all platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Connect with Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

]]>9249e2ec-f64f-441f-b565-fe53aede7eb2Thu, 30 Apr 2026 05:00:00 -050015:33falsefullWhy Documentary Subjects Freeze on CameraWhy Documentary Subjects Freeze on Camera

Why do documentary subjects freeze for a professional camera - but open up to an iPhone?

Robin Canfield shares why he films with iPhones, how he teaches documentary in twenty countries, and the communication skill he says every documentary filmmaker overlooks.

Robin joins us from Saigon, Vietnam, during a four-week documentary program with international students. He shares why he switched from Canon cameras to phones, how his crews rebuild story structure at 1 AM using sticky notes on a wall, what happened the day a government minder followed him into a Hoi An coffee shop, and why he thinks communication is the skill every documentary filmmaker overlooks.

In this episode, you'll learn:

• Why documentary subjects freeze in front of professional cameras but open up around Phones

• How Robin and his students have produced more than 200 short documentaries in 20+ countries

• The paper-cut editing method Robin uses when the timeline on the computer isn’t telling the story

• Why communication may matter more than any gear you buy

• How to film ethically in countries where you're a guest, and what to do when the government is watching

• Why Robin screens every film locally before leaving, so the people in the story can see it first

• How Actuality Abroad started with a coffee cooperative story in Guatemala

• How a journalism background becomes a foundation for documentary filmmaking

• Why filmmakers can’t wait for someone to fund their work anymore

• What Robin means when he says "everyone is a storyteller, and everyone could be a better one"

Timestamps:

0:00 Introduction

1:11 Robin in Saigon: The Documentary Outreach program

2:52 Growing up with a camera: Dad's darkroom

5:35 Journalism at Oregon State

7:31 Founding Actuality Abroad: The Guatemala test run

11:34 Writing Purpose Driven Documentaries

15:49 Why Robin switched from Canon cameras to phones

16:32 Why documentary subjects freeze for cameras

17:04 Self-taught documentary filmmaking

21:21 Everyone is a storyteller

24:42 Documentary filmmaking is problem solving

25:54 Filming abroad: International production and visa logistics

29:32 The government watcher in a Vietnam coffee shop

34:50 The paper-cut editing method

39:13 Rights, Creative Commons, and protecting films

42:43 The Edinburgh tavern: Being American abroad

45:06 Learning to crowdfund and ask for what you need

48:42 DocuView Deja View: The Pez Outlaw

DocuView Deja Vu Pick:

Robin Canfield: The Pez Outlaw (Netflix, 2022)

This episode is supported by Virgil Films Entertainment.

About the Guest:

Robin Canfield is the co-founder and Director of Global Operations at Actuality Abroad, a media-centered study abroad program that has produced more than 200 short documentaries in 20+ countries. He trains his crews on iPhones with Tilta rigs, not traditional cinema cameras. He is the author of Purpose Driven Documentaries: A Field Guide to Creating Impact (Focal Press), a textbook for students and storytellers making social impact documentaries. He grew up around his father’s darkroom, studied journalism at Oregon State University, and has been a photographer and filmmaker most of his life. Based in Orlando, Florida.

Some of Robin's Recent Works:

“Los Maestros del Mañana” - Los Maestros del Mañana - July/August 2025, San Miguel de Allende, Mexico - Documentary Outreach (4 week program)

“Welcome to La Perseverancia” - Welcome to La Perseverancia - May 2025, Bogota, Colombia - Field Study (custom program with 10 adult former-foster-care-youth from Chicago)

“What Feeds Us” - What Feeds Us - January/February 2025, Bangkok, Thailand - Documentary Outreach (4 week program)

“Anything is Possible” - Anything is Possible - July/August 2024, Tangier, Morocco - Documentary Outreach (4 week program)

“Seeds for the Future” - Seeds for the Future - July, 2024, Uaxactún, Guatemala - Storytelling Expedition (2 week program in the Maya jungle in Guatemala)

About Actuality Abroad:

Actuality Abroad is a media-centered study abroad program that pairs filmmaking students with NGOs and social enterprises around the world. Since its founding, the program has produced over 200 short documentaries in more than 20 countries, including Guatemala, Colombia, Thailand, Indonesia, Mexico, Ecuador, and Vietnam. Students work in small crews, follow a full pre-production and editing curriculum, and screen their finished films locally before leaving each country.

***Interested in going on a trip with Actuality Abroad to Guatamala this July? Visit the Actuality Abroad website and hit the "Apply Now" button.***

Resources Mentioned:

• Purpose Driven Documentaries: A Field Guide to Creating Impact by Robin Canfield (Focal Press)

• The Pez Outlaw (Netflix, 2022)

• The Cove (2009)

• Poverty Inc. (2014)

Listen & Follow:

Apple Podcasts: tinyurl.com/DocFirstApple

Spotify: tinyurl.com/DocFirstSpotify

YouTube: tinyurl.com/DocFirstYouTube

Amazon Music: tinyurl.com/DocFirstAmazon

Support the show: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect:

Actuality Abroad: actualityabroad.com

Actuality Abroad on Vimeo and YouTube, search "Actuality Abroad"

Connect with Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

All Documentary First platforms: linktr.ee/doc1st

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

]]>

Why do documentary subjects freeze for a professional camera - but open up to an iPhone?

Robin Canfield shares why he films with iPhones, how he teaches documentary in twenty countries, and the communication skill he says every documentary filmmaker overlooks.

Robin joins us from Saigon, Vietnam, during a four-week documentary program with international students. He shares why he switched from Canon cameras to phones, how his crews rebuild story structure at 1 AM using sticky notes on a wall, what happened the day a government minder followed him into a Hoi An coffee shop, and why he thinks communication is the skill every documentary filmmaker overlooks.

In this episode, you'll learn:

• Why documentary subjects freeze in front of professional cameras but open up around Phones

• How Robin and his students have produced more than 200 short documentaries in 20+ countries

• The paper-cut editing method Robin uses when the timeline on the computer isn’t telling the story

• Why communication may matter more than any gear you buy

• How to film ethically in countries where you're a guest, and what to do when the government is watching

• Why Robin screens every film locally before leaving, so the people in the story can see it first

• How Actuality Abroad started with a coffee cooperative story in Guatemala

• How a journalism background becomes a foundation for documentary filmmaking

• Why filmmakers can’t wait for someone to fund their work anymore

• What Robin means when he says "everyone is a storyteller, and everyone could be a better one"

Timestamps:

0:00 Introduction

1:11 Robin in Saigon: The Documentary Outreach program

2:52 Growing up with a camera: Dad's darkroom

5:35 Journalism at Oregon State

7:31 Founding Actuality Abroad: The Guatemala test run

11:34 Writing Purpose Driven Documentaries

15:49 Why Robin switched from Canon cameras to phones

16:32 Why documentary subjects freeze for cameras

17:04 Self-taught documentary filmmaking

21:21 Everyone is a storyteller

24:42 Documentary filmmaking is problem solving

25:54 Filming abroad: International production and visa logistics

29:32 The government watcher in a Vietnam coffee shop

34:50 The paper-cut editing method

39:13 Rights, Creative Commons, and protecting films

42:43 The Edinburgh tavern: Being American abroad

45:06 Learning to crowdfund and ask for what you need

48:42 DocuView Deja View: The Pez Outlaw

DocuView Deja Vu Pick:

Robin Canfield: The Pez Outlaw (Netflix, 2022)

This episode is supported by Virgil Films Entertainment.

About the Guest:

Robin Canfield is the co-founder and Director of Global Operations at Actuality Abroad, a media-centered study abroad program that has produced more than 200 short documentaries in 20+ countries. He trains his crews on iPhones with Tilta rigs, not traditional cinema cameras. He is the author of Purpose Driven Documentaries: A Field Guide to Creating Impact (Focal Press), a textbook for students and storytellers making social impact documentaries. He grew up around his father’s darkroom, studied journalism at Oregon State University, and has been a photographer and filmmaker most of his life. Based in Orlando, Florida.

Some of Robin's Recent Works:

“Los Maestros del Mañana” - Los Maestros del Mañana - July/August 2025, San Miguel de Allende, Mexico - Documentary Outreach (4 week program)

“Welcome to La Perseverancia” - Welcome to La Perseverancia - May 2025, Bogota, Colombia - Field Study (custom program with 10 adult former-foster-care-youth from Chicago)

“What Feeds Us” - What Feeds Us - January/February 2025, Bangkok, Thailand - Documentary Outreach (4 week program)

“Anything is Possible” - Anything is Possible - July/August 2024, Tangier, Morocco - Documentary Outreach (4 week program)

“Seeds for the Future” - Seeds for the Future - July, 2024, Uaxactún, Guatemala - Storytelling Expedition (2 week program in the Maya jungle in Guatemala)

About Actuality Abroad:

Actuality Abroad is a media-centered study abroad program that pairs filmmaking students with NGOs and social enterprises around the world. Since its founding, the program has produced over 200 short documentaries in more than 20 countries, including Guatemala, Colombia, Thailand, Indonesia, Mexico, Ecuador, and Vietnam. Students work in small crews, follow a full pre-production and editing curriculum, and screen their finished films locally before leaving each country.

***Interested in going on a trip with Actuality Abroad to Guatamala this July? Visit the Actuality Abroad website and hit the "Apply Now" button.***

Resources Mentioned:

• Purpose Driven Documentaries: A Field Guide to Creating Impact by Robin Canfield (Focal Press)

• The Pez Outlaw (Netflix, 2022)

• The Cove (2009)

• Poverty Inc. (2014)

Listen & Follow:

Apple Podcasts: tinyurl.com/DocFirstApple

Spotify: tinyurl.com/DocFirstSpotify

YouTube: tinyurl.com/DocFirstYouTube

Amazon Music: tinyurl.com/DocFirstAmazon

Support the show: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect:

Actuality Abroad: actualityabroad.com

Actuality Abroad on Vimeo and YouTube, search "Actuality Abroad"

Connect with Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

All Documentary First platforms: linktr.ee/doc1st

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

]]>7d3c8bbe-969b-4743-bcab-b20f6f13244dThu, 23 Apr 2026 14:15:00 -050051:14falsefull276276They Wanted My Voice to Train AI. So I Asked 10 Questions.They Wanted My Voice to Train AI. So I Asked 10 Questions.Someone tried to harvest Christian's voice for AI training. The pitch was polished, the project sounded real. But when she responded with ten professional questions, the conversation ended. Permanently.

In this Deep Dive on Episode 275, Christian connects that experience to her conversation with Erik and Christopher Ewers, the brothers behind the PBS documentary Henry David Thoreau. Chris Ewers argues that every technological revolution has felt like the end of the world, the Industrial Revolution, digital cameras, and now AI. Each time the tool became indispensable. Then Christian pulls in Thoreau himself, the man who railed against the railroad and then rode the train 70 times. He used the tool deliberately.

In this episode, you’ll hear:

  • The full story of the suspicious voice-over job offer and the ten questions that ended it.
  • Why Christian’s VO business is declining while her filmmaking and podcasting are thriving.
  • Chris Ewers’s case for why AI is the digital camera revolution all over again.
  • Thoreau’s “cost of a thing” quote and why it hits differently in the age of AI.
  • The contradiction of Thoreau and the train, and what “live deliberately” actually means now.
  • Jeff Goldblum at the mic and George Clooney saying “tell me if I suck”, what AI will never replace.

Timestamps:

0:00 Is AI hurting or helping?

0:15 Show open

0:25 The Ethan Caldwell story: a suspicious voice-over job offer

2:28 Where I stand with AI: the nosedive and the leap

3:34 The Ewers Brothers and the revolution that always comes

4:18 Chris Ewers's argument: we've been here before

4:53 Clip: Chris Ewers on AI and the digital camera revolution

6:23 What Chris got right, and what the panic gets wrong

7:03 Thoreau walks back in: technology, not just self-knowledge

7:36 "The cost of a thing is the amount of life exchanged for it"

8:25 The train he swore he'd never ride

9:05 What "live deliberately" actually means

9:21 What Ethan Caldwell's silence reveals about surviving a revolution

9:52 The best professional advice Chris ever received

10:14 Goldblum, Clooney, and what machines can't replicate

11:30 Every revolution feels like the end of the world

12:30 The best answer I've heard: closing

Listen & Follow:

Apple Podcasts: tinyurl.com/DocFirstApple

Spotify: tinyurl.com/DocFirstSpotify

YouTube: tinyurl.com/DocFirstYouTube

Amazon Music: tinyurl.com/DocFirstAmazon

Support the show: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

About the Guests (from DF Episode 275):

Erik Ewers: Director, Editor. Ken Burns’s senior editor for 33+ years. Multiple Emmy winner. Based in New Hampshire.

Christopher Loren Ewers: Director, DP. 20+ years behind the camera. Based in the NYC metro area.

About Henry David Thoreau (PBS):

A three-part, three-hour documentary. Executive produced by Ken Burns and Don Henley. Narrated by George Clooney. Voices by Jeff Goldblum (Thoreau), Ted Danson (Emerson), Meryl Streep, and Tate Donovan. Available now on PBS and PBS Documentaries on Amazon.

Resources:

Henry David Thoreau (PBS, 2026) | Walden by Henry David Thoreau (1854)

Hear Part 1: Episode 274, “I Didn’t Know Myself: Erik & Chris Ewers on Ken Burns, PBS & Thoreau”

Hear Part 2: Episode 275, "Erik & Chris Ewers on PBS Funding, AI & Directing Goldblum, Clooney & Streep"

Connect:

Ewers Brothers: ewersbrothers.com

Erik Ewers: @melonhd | linkedin.com/in/erik-ewers-38122729

Chris Ewers: @christopher_loren_ewers_dp | linkedin.com/in/christopherewers

Christian Taylor: @meetchristiantaylor I linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

All platforms: linktr.ee/doc1st

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

]]>Someone tried to harvest Christian's voice for AI training. The pitch was polished, the project sounded real. But when she responded with ten professional questions, the conversation ended. Permanently.

In this Deep Dive on Episode 275, Christian connects that experience to her conversation with Erik and Christopher Ewers, the brothers behind the PBS documentary Henry David Thoreau. Chris Ewers argues that every technological revolution has felt like the end of the world, the Industrial Revolution, digital cameras, and now AI. Each time the tool became indispensable. Then Christian pulls in Thoreau himself, the man who railed against the railroad and then rode the train 70 times. He used the tool deliberately.

In this episode, you’ll hear:

  • The full story of the suspicious voice-over job offer and the ten questions that ended it.
  • Why Christian’s VO business is declining while her filmmaking and podcasting are thriving.
  • Chris Ewers’s case for why AI is the digital camera revolution all over again.
  • Thoreau’s “cost of a thing” quote and why it hits differently in the age of AI.
  • The contradiction of Thoreau and the train, and what “live deliberately” actually means now.
  • Jeff Goldblum at the mic and George Clooney saying “tell me if I suck”, what AI will never replace.

Timestamps:

0:00 Is AI hurting or helping?

0:15 Show open

0:25 The Ethan Caldwell story: a suspicious voice-over job offer

2:28 Where I stand with AI: the nosedive and the leap

3:34 The Ewers Brothers and the revolution that always comes

4:18 Chris Ewers's argument: we've been here before

4:53 Clip: Chris Ewers on AI and the digital camera revolution

6:23 What Chris got right, and what the panic gets wrong

7:03 Thoreau walks back in: technology, not just self-knowledge

7:36 "The cost of a thing is the amount of life exchanged for it"

8:25 The train he swore he'd never ride

9:05 What "live deliberately" actually means

9:21 What Ethan Caldwell's silence reveals about surviving a revolution

9:52 The best professional advice Chris ever received

10:14 Goldblum, Clooney, and what machines can't replicate

11:30 Every revolution feels like the end of the world

12:30 The best answer I've heard: closing

Listen & Follow:

Apple Podcasts: tinyurl.com/DocFirstApple

Spotify: tinyurl.com/DocFirstSpotify

YouTube: tinyurl.com/DocFirstYouTube

Amazon Music: tinyurl.com/DocFirstAmazon

Support the show: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

About the Guests (from DF Episode 275):

Erik Ewers: Director, Editor. Ken Burns’s senior editor for 33+ years. Multiple Emmy winner. Based in New Hampshire.

Christopher Loren Ewers: Director, DP. 20+ years behind the camera. Based in the NYC metro area.

About Henry David Thoreau (PBS):

A three-part, three-hour documentary. Executive produced by Ken Burns and Don Henley. Narrated by George Clooney. Voices by Jeff Goldblum (Thoreau), Ted Danson (Emerson), Meryl Streep, and Tate Donovan. Available now on PBS and PBS Documentaries on Amazon.

Resources:

Henry David Thoreau (PBS, 2026) | Walden by Henry David Thoreau (1854)

Hear Part 1: Episode 274, “I Didn’t Know Myself: Erik & Chris Ewers on Ken Burns, PBS & Thoreau”

Hear Part 2: Episode 275, "Erik & Chris Ewers on PBS Funding, AI & Directing Goldblum, Clooney & Streep"

Connect:

Ewers Brothers: ewersbrothers.com

Erik Ewers: @melonhd | linkedin.com/in/erik-ewers-38122729

Chris Ewers: @christopher_loren_ewers_dp | linkedin.com/in/christopherewers

Christian Taylor: @meetchristiantaylor I linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

All platforms: linktr.ee/doc1st

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

]]>a842f9e0-6a8c-4b6b-a935-14a4e59945a6Thu, 16 Apr 2026 07:45:00 -050012:44falsefullKen Burns' Thoreau Documentary: How Do You Fund a PBS Film?Ken Burns' Thoreau Documentary: How Do You Fund a PBS Film?Even with Ken Burns and Don Henley attached, funding a PBS documentary is brutal. So what hope do the rest of us have?

Erik and Christopher Ewers get real about PBS funding, AI’s impact on filmmaking, and how they landed George Clooney, Jeff Goldblum, Ted Danson, Tate Donovan and Meryl Streep for their new PBS documentary Henry David Thoreau.

In Part 2 of this conversation, the Ewers Brothers open up about the financial realities of documentary funding, even with Ken Burns and Don Henley attached, why Chris sees AI as the next revolution instead of the apocalypse, how broadcast is giving way to streaming, and the stories behind casting some of Hollywood’s biggest voices. This is Part 2 of a two-part conversation.

In Part 2, you’ll learn:

• Why having Ken Burns and Don Henley as executive producers doesn’t make funding easy and who actually made the Thoreau film possible

• Chris’s case for why AI is the digital camera revolution all over again, not the death of filmmaking

• The best professional advice Chris ever received and why it will never change

• How Chris kept his mouth shut on a commercial set with Jeff Goldblum and how that silence led to Goldblum voicing Thoreau

• The story of how Don Henley quietly recruited George Clooney as narrator and Clooney’s reaction when asked how long he’d known Henley

• Ken Burns’s advice on directing Meryl Streep: “You don’t.”

• How streaming is changing episode length and why “the director’s cut” isn't what it used to be.

• Erik’s approach to pre-planning edit cuts for PBS broadcast time slots without sacrificing the story

• Why Ken Burns treats his mentorship like tough love, and why Erik is grateful for it

• One thing filmmakers need to know about getting a documentary on PBS

Timestamps:

0:00 How Don Henley Got George Clooney

2:26 Why Thoreau Matters Today

7:24 Is AI the New Digital Camera?

12:25 The Best Professional Advice

14:56 How They Fund PBS Documentaries

18:18 How Do You Get a Documentary on PBS?

24:25 Broadcast vs. Streaming Lengths

28:15 How They Landed Jeff Goldblum

31:39 The George Clooney Reveal

35:28 DocuView Deja View Picks

DocuView DejaVu Picks:

Erik Ewers: Crumb (1994), Hearts of Darkness: A Filmmaker’s Apocalypse (1991), Jiro Dreams of Sushi (2011), The Thin Blue Line (1988)

Christopher Loren Ewers: Man on Wire (2008)

Christian Taylor: Buy Now: The Shopping Conspiracy (Netflix, 2024)

This episode is supported by Virgil Films Entertainment.

About the Guests:

Erik Ewers• Director, Editor. Ken Burns’s senior editor for 33+ years. Multiple Emmy winner. ACE Eddie Award winner (The Roosevelts, 2015). Based in New Hampshire.

Christopher Loren Ewers • Director, DP. 20+ years behind the camera. Commercial clients include Apple, Coca-Cola, Tiffany & Co., Stella Artois, Volvo, Peter Millar. Based in the NYC metro area.

About Henry David Thoreau (PBS):

A three-part, three-hour documentary, the first full-length documentary biography of Thoreau. Executive produced by Ken Burns and Don Henley. Narrated by George Clooney. Voices by Jeff Goldblum (Thoreau), Ted Danson (Ralph Waldo Emerson), Meryl Streep (Lidian Emerson, Margaret Fuller, Mary Merrick Brooks, Maria Thoreau), and Tate Donovan (William Ellery Channing). Available now on PBS and PBS Documentaries on Amazon.

Resources Mentioned:

• Henry David Thoreau (PBS, 2026)

• Buy Now: The Shopping Conspiracy (Netflix, 2024)

• The Movies That Made Us (Netflix)

• Walden; or, Life in the Woods by Henry David Thoreau (1854)

Listen & Follow:

Apple Podcasts: https://tinyurl.com/DocFirstApple

Spotify: tinyurl.com/DocFirstSpotify

YouTube: tinyurl.com/DocFirstYouTube

Amazon Music: tinyurl.com/DocFirstAmazon

Support the show: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect:

Ewers Brothers Productions: ewersbrothers.com

Connect with Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

All Documentary First platforms: linktr.ee/doc1st

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

]]>Even with Ken Burns and Don Henley attached, funding a PBS documentary is brutal. So what hope do the rest of us have?

Erik and Christopher Ewers get real about PBS funding, AI’s impact on filmmaking, and how they landed George Clooney, Jeff Goldblum, Ted Danson, Tate Donovan and Meryl Streep for their new PBS documentary Henry David Thoreau.

In Part 2 of this conversation, the Ewers Brothers open up about the financial realities of documentary funding, even with Ken Burns and Don Henley attached, why Chris sees AI as the next revolution instead of the apocalypse, how broadcast is giving way to streaming, and the stories behind casting some of Hollywood’s biggest voices. This is Part 2 of a two-part conversation.

In Part 2, you’ll learn:

• Why having Ken Burns and Don Henley as executive producers doesn’t make funding easy and who actually made the Thoreau film possible

• Chris’s case for why AI is the digital camera revolution all over again, not the death of filmmaking

• The best professional advice Chris ever received and why it will never change

• How Chris kept his mouth shut on a commercial set with Jeff Goldblum and how that silence led to Goldblum voicing Thoreau

• The story of how Don Henley quietly recruited George Clooney as narrator and Clooney’s reaction when asked how long he’d known Henley

• Ken Burns’s advice on directing Meryl Streep: “You don’t.”

• How streaming is changing episode length and why “the director’s cut” isn't what it used to be.

• Erik’s approach to pre-planning edit cuts for PBS broadcast time slots without sacrificing the story

• Why Ken Burns treats his mentorship like tough love, and why Erik is grateful for it

• One thing filmmakers need to know about getting a documentary on PBS

Timestamps:

0:00 How Don Henley Got George Clooney

2:26 Why Thoreau Matters Today

7:24 Is AI the New Digital Camera?

12:25 The Best Professional Advice

14:56 How They Fund PBS Documentaries

18:18 How Do You Get a Documentary on PBS?

24:25 Broadcast vs. Streaming Lengths

28:15 How They Landed Jeff Goldblum

31:39 The George Clooney Reveal

35:28 DocuView Deja View Picks

DocuView DejaVu Picks:

Erik Ewers: Crumb (1994), Hearts of Darkness: A Filmmaker’s Apocalypse (1991), Jiro Dreams of Sushi (2011), The Thin Blue Line (1988)

Christopher Loren Ewers: Man on Wire (2008)

Christian Taylor: Buy Now: The Shopping Conspiracy (Netflix, 2024)

This episode is supported by Virgil Films Entertainment.

About the Guests:

Erik Ewers• Director, Editor. Ken Burns’s senior editor for 33+ years. Multiple Emmy winner. ACE Eddie Award winner (The Roosevelts, 2015). Based in New Hampshire.

Christopher Loren Ewers • Director, DP. 20+ years behind the camera. Commercial clients include Apple, Coca-Cola, Tiffany & Co., Stella Artois, Volvo, Peter Millar. Based in the NYC metro area.

About Henry David Thoreau (PBS):

A three-part, three-hour documentary, the first full-length documentary biography of Thoreau. Executive produced by Ken Burns and Don Henley. Narrated by George Clooney. Voices by Jeff Goldblum (Thoreau), Ted Danson (Ralph Waldo Emerson), Meryl Streep (Lidian Emerson, Margaret Fuller, Mary Merrick Brooks, Maria Thoreau), and Tate Donovan (William Ellery Channing). Available now on PBS and PBS Documentaries on Amazon.

Resources Mentioned:

• Henry David Thoreau (PBS, 2026)

• Buy Now: The Shopping Conspiracy (Netflix, 2024)

• The Movies That Made Us (Netflix)

• Walden; or, Life in the Woods by Henry David Thoreau (1854)

Listen & Follow:

Apple Podcasts: https://tinyurl.com/DocFirstApple

Spotify: tinyurl.com/DocFirstSpotify

YouTube: tinyurl.com/DocFirstYouTube

Amazon Music: tinyurl.com/DocFirstAmazon

Support the show: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect:

Ewers Brothers Productions: ewersbrothers.com

Connect with Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

All Documentary First platforms: linktr.ee/doc1st

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

]]>0ef25326-15a1-48fe-ab94-91bb7a822878Thu, 09 Apr 2026 05:00:00 -050039:50falsefull275275What Thoreau Meant by Quiet DesperationWhat Thoreau Meant by Quiet DesperationHe edited nearly every Ken Burns film since The Civil War. He still didn't know who he was.

Henry David Thoreau wrote that most people lead lives of “quiet desperation.” But what did he actually mean - and what does it look like inside a successful career?

That’s the question Christian Taylor explores in this episode of Documentary First: The Deep Dive, after her conversation with Erik and Christopher Ewers, two brothers who just directed a three-part, three-hour PBS documentary on Thoreau. The film is narrated by George Clooney, with Jeff Goldblum voicing Thoreau, Ted Danson as Emerson, and Meryl Streep voicing several women in Thoreau’s life. It’s executive produced by Ken Burns and Don Henley.

What struck Christian wasn’t the star-studded cast or the prestige credentials. It was a quiet confession from Erik - Ken Burns’s senior editor for 33 years - who admitted that despite decades of career confidence, he didn’t really know himself. He described himself as “lost and wayward.” And it was his own documentary about youth mental illness that finally woke him up.

That led Christian back to Thoreau’s famous line and to a realization: Thoreau wasn’t describing unhappy people. He was describing people who don’t even know they’re suffering. People whose competence has become the hiding place.

What You’ll Learn:

  • Why competence can mask a total lack of self-knowledge - for decades
  • What Thoreau actually meant by “quiet desperation” (it’s not what most people think)
  • How Erik Ewers’s own documentary became the mirror that showed him himself
  • The connection between Thoreau’s grief, Christian’s grief, and the impulse to strip life down to what’s real
  • A practical challenge for filmmakers and creators: rest is where the seeing happens

The Core Idea:

Your craft can take you everywhere - except inward. The stories we tell have the power to tell us something back, but only if we’re paying attention. This episode explores what happens when the noise finally stops and we’re left standing on honest ground.

Featured Guests:

Erik Ewers – Director, Editor. Ken Burns’s senior editor for 33+ years. Multiple Emmy winner. ACE Eddie Award winner (The Roosevelts, 2015). Based in New Hampshire. Has worked on nearly every Burns film since The Civil War (1990). Co-director of Henry David Thoreau (PBS, 2026), Hiding in Plain Sight (2012) and The Mayo Clinic (2018)

Christopher Loren Ewers – Director, DP. 20+ years behind the camera. World-class cinematographer. Has been shooting for Burns and Florentine Films since The Vietnam War. Commercial clients include Apple, Coca-Cola, Stella Artois, Volvo and Peter Millar. Based in the NYC metro area.

Christopher Ewers Commercial Work

About Henry David Thoreau (PBS):

A three-part, three-hour documentary – the first full-length documentary biography of Thoreau. Executive produced by Ken Burns and Don Henley. Narrated by George Clooney. Voices by Jeff Goldblum (Thoreau), Ted Danson (Ralph Waldo Emerson), Meryl Streep, and Tate Donovan. Henry David Thoreau premied on PBS on March 30 and 31, 2026. Available now on PBS and wherever you stream PBS content.

Henry David Thoreau Series Trailer

Part 2 of the interview with Erik and Chris Ewers drops April 9 - covering PBS funding realities, AI and the industry, and how they landed Jeff Goldblum, George Clooney, Tate Donovan and Meryl Streep.

Resources Mentioned:


About Documentary First:

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Hear the full interview:

Listen to Episode 274 of Documentary First for Christian’s complete conversation with Erik and Christopher Ewers about the Thoreau documentary, working with Ken Burns, and the brother dynamic behind the filmmaking.

If you’re enjoying the show, please subscribe and leave a review! Want more ways to help? https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Listen & Follow:

Apple Podcasts: tinyurl.com/DocFirstApple

Spotify: tinyurl.com/DocFirstSpotify

YouTube: tinyurl.com/DocFirstYouTube

Amazon Music: tinyurl.com/DocFirstAmazon

]]>He edited nearly every Ken Burns film since The Civil War. He still didn't know who he was.

Henry David Thoreau wrote that most people lead lives of “quiet desperation.” But what did he actually mean - and what does it look like inside a successful career?

That’s the question Christian Taylor explores in this episode of Documentary First: The Deep Dive, after her conversation with Erik and Christopher Ewers, two brothers who just directed a three-part, three-hour PBS documentary on Thoreau. The film is narrated by George Clooney, with Jeff Goldblum voicing Thoreau, Ted Danson as Emerson, and Meryl Streep voicing several women in Thoreau’s life. It’s executive produced by Ken Burns and Don Henley.

What struck Christian wasn’t the star-studded cast or the prestige credentials. It was a quiet confession from Erik - Ken Burns’s senior editor for 33 years - who admitted that despite decades of career confidence, he didn’t really know himself. He described himself as “lost and wayward.” And it was his own documentary about youth mental illness that finally woke him up.

That led Christian back to Thoreau’s famous line and to a realization: Thoreau wasn’t describing unhappy people. He was describing people who don’t even know they’re suffering. People whose competence has become the hiding place.

What You’ll Learn:

  • Why competence can mask a total lack of self-knowledge - for decades
  • What Thoreau actually meant by “quiet desperation” (it’s not what most people think)
  • How Erik Ewers’s own documentary became the mirror that showed him himself
  • The connection between Thoreau’s grief, Christian’s grief, and the impulse to strip life down to what’s real
  • A practical challenge for filmmakers and creators: rest is where the seeing happens

The Core Idea:

Your craft can take you everywhere - except inward. The stories we tell have the power to tell us something back, but only if we’re paying attention. This episode explores what happens when the noise finally stops and we’re left standing on honest ground.

Featured Guests:

Erik Ewers – Director, Editor. Ken Burns’s senior editor for 33+ years. Multiple Emmy winner. ACE Eddie Award winner (The Roosevelts, 2015). Based in New Hampshire. Has worked on nearly every Burns film since The Civil War (1990). Co-director of Henry David Thoreau (PBS, 2026), Hiding in Plain Sight (2012) and The Mayo Clinic (2018)

Christopher Loren Ewers – Director, DP. 20+ years behind the camera. World-class cinematographer. Has been shooting for Burns and Florentine Films since The Vietnam War. Commercial clients include Apple, Coca-Cola, Stella Artois, Volvo and Peter Millar. Based in the NYC metro area.

Christopher Ewers Commercial Work

About Henry David Thoreau (PBS):

A three-part, three-hour documentary – the first full-length documentary biography of Thoreau. Executive produced by Ken Burns and Don Henley. Narrated by George Clooney. Voices by Jeff Goldblum (Thoreau), Ted Danson (Ralph Waldo Emerson), Meryl Streep, and Tate Donovan. Henry David Thoreau premied on PBS on March 30 and 31, 2026. Available now on PBS and wherever you stream PBS content.

Henry David Thoreau Series Trailer

Part 2 of the interview with Erik and Chris Ewers drops April 9 - covering PBS funding realities, AI and the industry, and how they landed Jeff Goldblum, George Clooney, Tate Donovan and Meryl Streep.

Resources Mentioned:


About Documentary First:

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Hear the full interview:

Listen to Episode 274 of Documentary First for Christian’s complete conversation with Erik and Christopher Ewers about the Thoreau documentary, working with Ken Burns, and the brother dynamic behind the filmmaking.

If you’re enjoying the show, please subscribe and leave a review! Want more ways to help? https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Listen & Follow:

Apple Podcasts: tinyurl.com/DocFirstApple

Spotify: tinyurl.com/DocFirstSpotify

YouTube: tinyurl.com/DocFirstYouTube

Amazon Music: tinyurl.com/DocFirstAmazon

]]>7159970e-8556-427c-bf9a-e8fdde6af5a2Thu, 02 Apr 2026 05:00:00 -050015:41falsefullHenry David Thoreau on PBS: The Brothers Who Made ItHenry David Thoreau on PBS: The Brothers Who Made ItHe's edited nearly every Ken Burns film ever made. But he couldn't edit himself.

What does it take to build a filmmaking career inside Ken Burns's world, and what happens when the hardest part isn't the craft, but learning who you are?

Erik and Christopher Ewers are brothers who co-direct for PBS under the Ken Burns banner. Erik has been Burns's senior editor for 33+ years. Chris is a DP who's shot for Apple, Coca-Cola, and Tiffany & Co. Their latest project: Henry David Thoreau, a three-part PBS documentary series executive produced by Ken Burns and Don Henley, narrated by George Clooney, with Jeff Goldblum voicing Thoreau, Ted Danson as Ralph Waldo Emerson, and Meryl Streep. Henry David Thoreau premieres on PBS March 30. This is Part 1 of a two-part conversation.

In Part 1, you'll learn:

• How Erik ended up working for Ken Burns through a real estate deal involving window treatments and carpets

• How a 22-minute visitors center film became the doorway to a three-hour PBS series

• What it's really like to co-direct a documentary with your brother (even Ken Burns couldn't do it with his)

• How Chris balances high-end commercial work with documentary filmmaking to sustain a creative career

• The challenge of filming Walden Pond with only two usable photographs of Thoreau

• Why knowing yourself is the most important skill a filmmaker can develop, and Erik's deeply personal story about discovering that through his own film

Part 2 drops April 9, covering PBS funding realities, AI and the industry, and how they landed Jeff Goldblum, George Clooney, and Meryl Streep.

This episode is supported by Virgil Films Entertainment.

About the Guests:

Erik Ewers• Director, Editor. Ken Burns's senior editor for 33+ years. Multiple Emmy winner. ACE Eddie Award winner (The Roosevelts, 2015). Based in New Hampshire.

Christopher Loren Ewers• Director, DP. 20+ years behind the camera. Commercial clients include Apple, Coca-Cola, Tiffany & Co., Stella Artois, Volvo. Based in the NYC metro area.

About Henry David Thoreau (PBS):

A three-part, three-hour documentary, the first full-length documentary biography of Thoreau. Executive produced by Ken Burns and Don Henley. Narrated by George Clooney. Voices by Jeff Goldblum (Thoreau), Ted Danson (Ralph Waldo Emerson), Meryl Streep, and Tate Donovan. Henry David Thoreau premieres on PBS March 30. Available on PBS and wherever you stream PBS content.

Christopher Ewers Commerical Work

Henry David Throeau Series Trailer

Listen & Follow:

Apple Podcasts: https://tinyurl.com/DocFirstApple

Spotify: tinyurl.com/DocFirstSpotify

YouTube: tinyurl.com/DocFirstYouTube

Amazon Music: tinyurl.com/DocFirstAmazon

Connect:

Ewers Brothers Productions

Christian Taylor on X

Christian Taylor on Instagram

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn

Documentary First on X

Documentary First on Instagram

Documentary First Productions

Linktree

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

]]>He's edited nearly every Ken Burns film ever made. But he couldn't edit himself.

What does it take to build a filmmaking career inside Ken Burns's world, and what happens when the hardest part isn't the craft, but learning who you are?

Erik and Christopher Ewers are brothers who co-direct for PBS under the Ken Burns banner. Erik has been Burns's senior editor for 33+ years. Chris is a DP who's shot for Apple, Coca-Cola, and Tiffany & Co. Their latest project: Henry David Thoreau, a three-part PBS documentary series executive produced by Ken Burns and Don Henley, narrated by George Clooney, with Jeff Goldblum voicing Thoreau, Ted Danson as Ralph Waldo Emerson, and Meryl Streep. Henry David Thoreau premieres on PBS March 30. This is Part 1 of a two-part conversation.

In Part 1, you'll learn:

• How Erik ended up working for Ken Burns through a real estate deal involving window treatments and carpets

• How a 22-minute visitors center film became the doorway to a three-hour PBS series

• What it's really like to co-direct a documentary with your brother (even Ken Burns couldn't do it with his)

• How Chris balances high-end commercial work with documentary filmmaking to sustain a creative career

• The challenge of filming Walden Pond with only two usable photographs of Thoreau

• Why knowing yourself is the most important skill a filmmaker can develop, and Erik's deeply personal story about discovering that through his own film

Part 2 drops April 9, covering PBS funding realities, AI and the industry, and how they landed Jeff Goldblum, George Clooney, and Meryl Streep.

This episode is supported by Virgil Films Entertainment.

About the Guests:

Erik Ewers• Director, Editor. Ken Burns's senior editor for 33+ years. Multiple Emmy winner. ACE Eddie Award winner (The Roosevelts, 2015). Based in New Hampshire.

Christopher Loren Ewers• Director, DP. 20+ years behind the camera. Commercial clients include Apple, Coca-Cola, Tiffany & Co., Stella Artois, Volvo. Based in the NYC metro area.

About Henry David Thoreau (PBS):

A three-part, three-hour documentary, the first full-length documentary biography of Thoreau. Executive produced by Ken Burns and Don Henley. Narrated by George Clooney. Voices by Jeff Goldblum (Thoreau), Ted Danson (Ralph Waldo Emerson), Meryl Streep, and Tate Donovan. Henry David Thoreau premieres on PBS March 30. Available on PBS and wherever you stream PBS content.

Christopher Ewers Commerical Work

Henry David Throeau Series Trailer

Listen & Follow:

Apple Podcasts: https://tinyurl.com/DocFirstApple

Spotify: tinyurl.com/DocFirstSpotify

YouTube: tinyurl.com/DocFirstYouTube

Amazon Music: tinyurl.com/DocFirstAmazon

Connect:

Ewers Brothers Productions

Christian Taylor on X

Christian Taylor on Instagram

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn

Documentary First on X

Documentary First on Instagram

Documentary First Productions

Linktree

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

]]>4f15146b-8756-400f-82d7-1571742875a0Thu, 26 Mar 2026 05:00:00 -050052:16falsefull274274What Francesca Bridgerton and a D-Day Veteran Both Discovered About Grief I Deep Dive on Ep. 273What Francesca Bridgerton and a D-Day Veteran Both Discovered About Grief In Bridgerton Season 4, Francesca Bridgerton stands in the middle of her husband’s funeral and says something no one expects: “I want to feel joy.”

Eighty years earlier and four thousand miles away, a D-Day veteran stood on Utah Beach watching children play in the water where his friends had died, and said something just as unexpected: “That’s why we came.”

In this episode of Documentary First: The Deep Dive, Christian Taylor connects these two moments to a discovery C.S. Lewis made in his grief journal A Grief Observed, and asks what it all means for the stories we tell as filmmakers. The answer surprised her. It might surprise you too.

What You’ll Learn:

  • What 20+ D-Day veterans told filmmaker Jake Schroeder when he asked if it was disrespectful to play on the beaches where men died
  • The C.S. Lewis line that connects grief, praise, and joy, and why filmmakers need to hear it
  • How Bridgerton Season 4, Episode 7 modeled a radically different response to loss
  • G.K. Chesterton’s 1908 concept that reframes everything: why joy might be bigger than the pain
  • Christian’s challenge to filmmakers: What if we gave our audiences permission to dance?

The Core Insight:

C.S. Lewis noticed that his grief wasn’t bringing him closer to his wife, it was cutting him off from her. Only in moments of least sorrow did she come rushing back, vivid and whole. He realized there are different modes of loving someone you’ve lost: grief focuses on the absence, but praise focuses on the fullness. And when love takes the form of praise, joy shows up inside it without being forced.

That’s what Francesca Bridgerton discovered at John’s celebration of life. It’s what Anthony Malan was doing when he watched children splash on Utah Beach and wept. Same love. Different mode.

Plus:

  • Christian’s personal story of losing her mom and finding A Grief Observed
  • Why the most powerful story we can tell might not be about the suffering, but about the moment after
  • How The Girl Who Wore Freedom approaches joy in the soil soaked with blood

Featured Guest:

Jake Schroeder, Founder of the D-Day Leadership Academy, former professional musician and youth sports director. Jake brings high school students to Normandy to learn leadership through the stories of D-Day, and has spent years taking veterans back to the beaches where they fought.

References Mentioned:

  • Bridgerton Season 4, Episode 7: “The Beyond” (Netflix)
  • C.S. Lewis, A Grief Observed
  • G.K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy (1908)
  • Jake Schroeder / D-Day Leadership Academy
  • The Girl Who Wore Freedom (Christian Taylor’s film)
  • Anthony Malan, D-Day veteran, LST driver, Utah Beach

About Documentary First:

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Hear the full interview:

Listen to Episode 273 of Documentary First for Christian’s complete conversation with Jake Schroeder about D-Day, leadership, and what veterans can teach us about purpose.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/4lp6cdjyyd52omtOQB6Tz8?si=88968b4ec2794312

If you’re enjoying the show, please subscribe and leave a review!

]]>In Bridgerton Season 4, Francesca Bridgerton stands in the middle of her husband’s funeral and says something no one expects: “I want to feel joy.”

Eighty years earlier and four thousand miles away, a D-Day veteran stood on Utah Beach watching children play in the water where his friends had died, and said something just as unexpected: “That’s why we came.”

In this episode of Documentary First: The Deep Dive, Christian Taylor connects these two moments to a discovery C.S. Lewis made in his grief journal A Grief Observed, and asks what it all means for the stories we tell as filmmakers. The answer surprised her. It might surprise you too.

What You’ll Learn:

  • What 20+ D-Day veterans told filmmaker Jake Schroeder when he asked if it was disrespectful to play on the beaches where men died
  • The C.S. Lewis line that connects grief, praise, and joy, and why filmmakers need to hear it
  • How Bridgerton Season 4, Episode 7 modeled a radically different response to loss
  • G.K. Chesterton’s 1908 concept that reframes everything: why joy might be bigger than the pain
  • Christian’s challenge to filmmakers: What if we gave our audiences permission to dance?

The Core Insight:

C.S. Lewis noticed that his grief wasn’t bringing him closer to his wife, it was cutting him off from her. Only in moments of least sorrow did she come rushing back, vivid and whole. He realized there are different modes of loving someone you’ve lost: grief focuses on the absence, but praise focuses on the fullness. And when love takes the form of praise, joy shows up inside it without being forced.

That’s what Francesca Bridgerton discovered at John’s celebration of life. It’s what Anthony Malan was doing when he watched children splash on Utah Beach and wept. Same love. Different mode.

Plus:

  • Christian’s personal story of losing her mom and finding A Grief Observed
  • Why the most powerful story we can tell might not be about the suffering, but about the moment after
  • How The Girl Who Wore Freedom approaches joy in the soil soaked with blood

Featured Guest:

Jake Schroeder, Founder of the D-Day Leadership Academy, former professional musician and youth sports director. Jake brings high school students to Normandy to learn leadership through the stories of D-Day, and has spent years taking veterans back to the beaches where they fought.

References Mentioned:

  • Bridgerton Season 4, Episode 7: “The Beyond” (Netflix)
  • C.S. Lewis, A Grief Observed
  • G.K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy (1908)
  • Jake Schroeder / D-Day Leadership Academy
  • The Girl Who Wore Freedom (Christian Taylor’s film)
  • Anthony Malan, D-Day veteran, LST driver, Utah Beach

About Documentary First:

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Hear the full interview:

Listen to Episode 273 of Documentary First for Christian’s complete conversation with Jake Schroeder about D-Day, leadership, and what veterans can teach us about purpose.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/4lp6cdjyyd52omtOQB6Tz8?si=88968b4ec2794312

If you’re enjoying the show, please subscribe and leave a review!

]]>0c54adab-7895-45a6-8e42-842a59248f7cThu, 19 Mar 2026 05:00:00 -050014:53falsefullWhy He Brings Kids and Cops to the D-Day BeachesWhy He Brings Kids and Cops to the D-Day BeachesHe sang the national anthem for the Colorado Avalanche a thousand times, coached 4,000 inner-city kids, lost it all, and rebuilt on the beaches of Normandy — where a WWII veteran watched children playing on Utah Beach and said through tears: "That's why we came."

Jake Schroeder—former frontman of OP Gone Bad, national anthem singer for the Colorado Avalanche, and executive director of the Denver Police Activities League—now runs the D-Day Leadership Academy, bringing inner-city youth to Normandy, France to learn leadership through the stories of World War II.

After concussions, insurance costs, and political shifts dismantled his youth sports programs serving 4,000 kids a year, Jake pivoted. Inspired by the WWII veterans he’d been bringing back to Omaha Beach and Utah Beach since 2011, he transformed his nonprofit into a Normandy-based leadership program built on five pillars drawn from D-Day: leading from the front, total commitment to mission, chaos, preparation, and empathy. In this conversation, he and host Christian Taylor—director of the award-winning documentary The Girl Who Wore Freedom—explore what success really means when the money isn’t there but the mission keeps growing.

What You’ll Learn:

  • What does the D-Day Leadership Academy teach kids in Normandy?
  • How do you pivot a nonprofit when your core programs collapse?
  • What did WWII veterans say about people recreating on Normandy’s beaches?
  • How do you define success when your documentary or nonprofit isn’t financially profitable?
  • What are John Elway’s three rules for running a successful charity event?
  • How does Stoic philosophy help when you’re facing failure in filmmaking or leadership?
  • What documentary films should you watch? Elway to Marino, Miracle: The Boys of ’80, Cold War on Ice

Timestamps:

0:00 Introduction

3:07 How Christian and Jake met in Normandy, France

4:56 The Girl Who Wore Freedom documentary and shared mission

7:00 Following up on failure: Epic Bill documentary and redefining success

9:00 OP Gone Bad: the band years and when the road is worth it

11:49 Virginia Beach and the harder right vs. easier wrong

12:43 Stoicism: choosing your response vs. choosing misery

13:49 Parenting through adversity: military kids and letting go

15:06 The beach at night: perspective from the waves

17:16 Documentary filmmaking as lifelong relationship-building

18:36 Denver Police Activities League: cops coaching inner-city kids

22:00 Starting an inner-city hockey program with the Colorado Avalanche

23:56 Youth sports crisis: travel teams, concussions, gangs at games

25:19 Concussion protocol failures and insurance spikes

27:12 Shutting it all down: the painful pivot

28:04 How the Normandy leadership trips began in 2015

30:16 The D-Day Leadership Academy program today

32:11 Scholarship kids: getting passports, Richmond to Normandy

33:31 Five leadership pillars: leading from the front, commitment, chaos, preparation, empathy

34:55 Teaching chaos through the COVID-19 pandemic

36:04 Expanding into adult leadership retreats in Normandy

36:56 The magic of Normandy beyond D-Day: Vikings, Romans, food, and culture

39:35 Franco-American relations: Eisenhower's response to Charles de Gaulle

42:45 Normandy tours: culinary, yoga, classical concerts in French churches

45:13 Charity auction and The Girl Who Wore Freedom guided tour

47:55 "That's why we came": WWII veterans on children playing at Utah Beach

49:07 Message to documentary filmmakers: your film matters even without profit

51:53 John Elway's elevator advice on running charity events

54:40 Authenticity in documentary filmmaking

55:58 DocuView Deja View: Elway to Marino, Miracle: The Boys of '80, Cold War on Ice

About Jake Schroeder:

Jake Schroeder is a fourth-generation Colorado native, former frontman of the funk-rock band OP Gone Bad, and sang the national anthem for the Colorado Avalanche (NHL) over 1,000 times across 25 years. He began volunteering with the Denver Police Activities League in 1999, became executive director in 2014, and transformed the organization into the D-Day Leadership Academy—a nonprofit that brings inner-city youth, police officers, and combat veterans to Sainte-Mère-Église, Normandy, France to learn leadership through the stories of D-Day, Omaha Beach, Utah Beach, and the 82nd and 101st Airborne Divisions. He lives in Golden, Colorado with his partner Brooke Ferguson, principal flutist of the Colorado Symphony. Website: Home | D-Day Leadership Academy

If you’re enjoying the show, please subscribe and leave a review!

VIRGIL FILMS LINKS:

Home (New)

Virgil Films (@VirgilFilms) on X

Virgil Films and Entertainment

Virgil Films (@virgilfilms) • Instagram profile

]]>He sang the national anthem for the Colorado Avalanche a thousand times, coached 4,000 inner-city kids, lost it all, and rebuilt on the beaches of Normandy — where a WWII veteran watched children playing on Utah Beach and said through tears: "That's why we came."

Jake Schroeder—former frontman of OP Gone Bad, national anthem singer for the Colorado Avalanche, and executive director of the Denver Police Activities League—now runs the D-Day Leadership Academy, bringing inner-city youth to Normandy, France to learn leadership through the stories of World War II.

After concussions, insurance costs, and political shifts dismantled his youth sports programs serving 4,000 kids a year, Jake pivoted. Inspired by the WWII veterans he’d been bringing back to Omaha Beach and Utah Beach since 2011, he transformed his nonprofit into a Normandy-based leadership program built on five pillars drawn from D-Day: leading from the front, total commitment to mission, chaos, preparation, and empathy. In this conversation, he and host Christian Taylor—director of the award-winning documentary The Girl Who Wore Freedom—explore what success really means when the money isn’t there but the mission keeps growing.

What You’ll Learn:

  • What does the D-Day Leadership Academy teach kids in Normandy?
  • How do you pivot a nonprofit when your core programs collapse?
  • What did WWII veterans say about people recreating on Normandy’s beaches?
  • How do you define success when your documentary or nonprofit isn’t financially profitable?
  • What are John Elway’s three rules for running a successful charity event?
  • How does Stoic philosophy help when you’re facing failure in filmmaking or leadership?
  • What documentary films should you watch? Elway to Marino, Miracle: The Boys of ’80, Cold War on Ice

Timestamps:

0:00 Introduction

3:07 How Christian and Jake met in Normandy, France

4:56 The Girl Who Wore Freedom documentary and shared mission

7:00 Following up on failure: Epic Bill documentary and redefining success

9:00 OP Gone Bad: the band years and when the road is worth it

11:49 Virginia Beach and the harder right vs. easier wrong

12:43 Stoicism: choosing your response vs. choosing misery

13:49 Parenting through adversity: military kids and letting go

15:06 The beach at night: perspective from the waves

17:16 Documentary filmmaking as lifelong relationship-building

18:36 Denver Police Activities League: cops coaching inner-city kids

22:00 Starting an inner-city hockey program with the Colorado Avalanche

23:56 Youth sports crisis: travel teams, concussions, gangs at games

25:19 Concussion protocol failures and insurance spikes

27:12 Shutting it all down: the painful pivot

28:04 How the Normandy leadership trips began in 2015

30:16 The D-Day Leadership Academy program today

32:11 Scholarship kids: getting passports, Richmond to Normandy

33:31 Five leadership pillars: leading from the front, commitment, chaos, preparation, empathy

34:55 Teaching chaos through the COVID-19 pandemic

36:04 Expanding into adult leadership retreats in Normandy

36:56 The magic of Normandy beyond D-Day: Vikings, Romans, food, and culture

39:35 Franco-American relations: Eisenhower's response to Charles de Gaulle

42:45 Normandy tours: culinary, yoga, classical concerts in French churches

45:13 Charity auction and The Girl Who Wore Freedom guided tour

47:55 "That's why we came": WWII veterans on children playing at Utah Beach

49:07 Message to documentary filmmakers: your film matters even without profit

51:53 John Elway's elevator advice on running charity events

54:40 Authenticity in documentary filmmaking

55:58 DocuView Deja View: Elway to Marino, Miracle: The Boys of '80, Cold War on Ice

About Jake Schroeder:

Jake Schroeder is a fourth-generation Colorado native, former frontman of the funk-rock band OP Gone Bad, and sang the national anthem for the Colorado Avalanche (NHL) over 1,000 times across 25 years. He began volunteering with the Denver Police Activities League in 1999, became executive director in 2014, and transformed the organization into the D-Day Leadership Academy—a nonprofit that brings inner-city youth, police officers, and combat veterans to Sainte-Mère-Église, Normandy, France to learn leadership through the stories of D-Day, Omaha Beach, Utah Beach, and the 82nd and 101st Airborne Divisions. He lives in Golden, Colorado with his partner Brooke Ferguson, principal flutist of the Colorado Symphony. Website: Home | D-Day Leadership Academy

If you’re enjoying the show, please subscribe and leave a review!

VIRGIL FILMS LINKS:

Home (New)

Virgil Films (@VirgilFilms) on X

Virgil Films and Entertainment

Virgil Films (@virgilfilms) • Instagram profile

]]>7dc6faa5-cc1d-47d1-98c3-162b98e6e357Thu, 12 Mar 2026 00:00:00 -050058:36falsefull273273What If You're Not Actually Failing? Deep Dive on Ep. 272 with Director Quinnolyn Benson-YatesWhat If You're Not Actually Failing? I Deep Dive with Director Quinnolyn Benson-YatesWhat if failure isn’t the enemy, but the training ground?

That’s the question Christian Taylor explores in this episode of Documentary First: The Deep Dive, sparked by her conversation with filmmaker Quinnolyn Benson-Yates about the documentary Epic Bill. Bill Bradley lost his video rental empire to Netflix, went bankrupt, went through a divorce, and then rebuilt himself through extreme endurance athletics. His mantra? “Courage is a muscle.” And “Show up and suffer.”

In this deeply personal episode, Christian connects Bill’s story to her own struggles as a filmmaker, podcast host, and business owner, and to the ancient wisdom of the Stoics, Scripture, and some of history’s greatest examples of failure-turned-triumph.

What You’ll Learn:

  • Why “courage is a muscle” is backed by actual science
  • The mental tennis lesson that changed Christian’s relationship with failure
  • What Thomas Edison and Michael Jordan understood about reframing failure
  • How the 1980 “Miracle on Ice” wouldn’t have happened without a crushing 10-3 defeat
  • What the Stoics and James 1:2-4 agree on about trials and perseverance
  • Christian’s honest confession about feeling like a failure, and choosing to keep going

Key Quotes:

  • “I didn’t fail. I found out 2,000 ways how not to make a light bulb.”, Thomas Edison
  • “I’ve failed over and over and over in my life. And that’s why I succeed.”, Michael Jordan
  • “The impediment to action advances action. What stands in the way becomes the way.”, Marcus Aurelius
  • “Valuing the courage to try again is a radical concept.”, Quinnolyn Benson-Yates

Featured Documentary: Epic Bill, directed by Quinnolyn Benson-Yates. Now streaming on Amazon and Apple TV. PBS nationwide distribution.

Resources Mentioned: Vic Braden’s Mental Tennis • The Obstacle Is the Way by Ryan Holiday • Miracle: The Boys of ’80 (Netflix) • James 1:2-4, Romans 8:28

About Documentary First: Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Hear the full interview: Listen to Episode 272 of Documentary First for Christian’s complete conversation with Quinnolyn Benson-Yates about Epic Bill, seven years of documentary filmmaking, and the PBS distribution journey.

If you’re enjoying the show, please subscribe and leave a review!

]]>What if failure isn’t the enemy, but the training ground?

That’s the question Christian Taylor explores in this episode of Documentary First: The Deep Dive, sparked by her conversation with filmmaker Quinnolyn Benson-Yates about the documentary Epic Bill. Bill Bradley lost his video rental empire to Netflix, went bankrupt, went through a divorce, and then rebuilt himself through extreme endurance athletics. His mantra? “Courage is a muscle.” And “Show up and suffer.”

In this deeply personal episode, Christian connects Bill’s story to her own struggles as a filmmaker, podcast host, and business owner, and to the ancient wisdom of the Stoics, Scripture, and some of history’s greatest examples of failure-turned-triumph.

What You’ll Learn:

  • Why “courage is a muscle” is backed by actual science
  • The mental tennis lesson that changed Christian’s relationship with failure
  • What Thomas Edison and Michael Jordan understood about reframing failure
  • How the 1980 “Miracle on Ice” wouldn’t have happened without a crushing 10-3 defeat
  • What the Stoics and James 1:2-4 agree on about trials and perseverance
  • Christian’s honest confession about feeling like a failure, and choosing to keep going

Key Quotes:

  • “I didn’t fail. I found out 2,000 ways how not to make a light bulb.”, Thomas Edison
  • “I’ve failed over and over and over in my life. And that’s why I succeed.”, Michael Jordan
  • “The impediment to action advances action. What stands in the way becomes the way.”, Marcus Aurelius
  • “Valuing the courage to try again is a radical concept.”, Quinnolyn Benson-Yates

Featured Documentary: Epic Bill, directed by Quinnolyn Benson-Yates. Now streaming on Amazon and Apple TV. PBS nationwide distribution.

Resources Mentioned: Vic Braden’s Mental Tennis • The Obstacle Is the Way by Ryan Holiday • Miracle: The Boys of ’80 (Netflix) • James 1:2-4, Romans 8:28

About Documentary First: Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Hear the full interview: Listen to Episode 272 of Documentary First for Christian’s complete conversation with Quinnolyn Benson-Yates about Epic Bill, seven years of documentary filmmaking, and the PBS distribution journey.

If you’re enjoying the show, please subscribe and leave a review!

]]>57f4ad23-4ce4-4de1-8a18-a4d444fec25fThu, 05 Mar 2026 05:00:00 -060016:30falsefullEpic Bill: From Video Store Millionaire to Endurance AthleteEpic Bill: From Video Store Millionaire to Endurance AthleteAward-winning filmmaker Quinnolyn Benson-Yates made her first feature documentary before film school—and its seven-year journey from short film concept to PBS distribution holds lessons every indie filmmaker needs to hear.

Epic Bill follows an endurance athlete who lost everything when his video rental empire collapsed (thanks, Netflix). Bill’s mantra—“show up and suffer”—became Quinn’s filmmaking philosophy as she navigated polar vortexes, battery failures in -50° weather, and the brutal realities of distribution. In this episode, she shares how she cut a 93-minute film down to 56 minutes for PBS, why credibility matters more than connections, and the uncomfortable truth about what distribution actually solves.

DocuView Déjà Vu:

Free Solo, 2018, 100 mins, Watch on on Disney + Package / Hulu, IMDB Link: Free Solo (2018) ⭐ 8.1 | Documentary, Adventure, Sport

Meru, 2015, 90 mins, Watch on Prime Video, IMDB Link: Meru (2015) ⭐ 7.7 | Documentary, Sport

Crip Camp: A Disability Revolution, 2020, 106 mins, Watch on Netflix, IMDB Link: Crip Camp (2020) ⭐ 7.7 | Documentary, History

What You’ll Learn:

  • Why “fail early, fail often” should include “fail sustainably”
  • How archival footage transformed a short film into a feature
  • The PBS application process (NETA) and what it requires
  • What intermediaries like Bitmax do for Apple TV/Amazon distribution
  • Why distribution doesn’t make your career—you do

About Quinnolyn Benson-Yates

Quinnolyn Benson-Yates is an award-winning filmmaker with an MFA from USC School of Cinematic Arts. Her feature documentary Epic Bill gained nationwide PBS distribution with promotions on CNN and SiriusXM, and is now available on Amazon and Apple TV. She’s a two-time winner of Santa Barbara International Film Festival’s 10-10-10 competition, and her short film Miss River screened at Palm Springs LGBTQ Film Festival. Her most recent short, a Western comedy called Man, premiered at Austin Film Festival. She’s currently developing her first narrative feature about a middle school girl starting a punk band with her dad—inspired by her own childhood as an eight-year-old punk rock singer.

Website: QBY | Film: Epic Bill - The Film | Instagram: @‌quinnolyn

If you’re enjoying the show, please subscribe and leave a review!

Sponsor: Virgil Films http://www.virgilfilms.com/

Support us by buying merch or watching our films: https://documentaryfirst.com/

Follow our Substack Blog: https://documentaryfirst.substack.com/

Join our newsletter (bottom of page): https://thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/

Donate to help us tell more stories: https://givebutter.com/LivingStoriesLtd

Support the show: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CHAPTERS

0:00 Introduction

4:27 Quinn's journey: punk rocker to USC film grad

6:44 Current projects: narrative feature development

8:02 Epic Bill origin: short film becomes seven-year feature

10:08 Why documentaries take so long (pandemic, polar vortex, funding)

13:22 Bill's philosophy: "Show up and suffer"

15:06 "I am always 30 years old": renegotiating reality

17:35 Applying endurance athlete lessons to filmmaking

19:47 Bill's curiosity: inventing new challenges

21:59 Filming extreme conditions as a new filmmaker

25:26 "Fail sustainably": the mentor factor

27:01 Hardest scenes: logistical (-50° batteries) and emotional

29:35 Bill's video store sequence (longer cut only)

30:44 Bill's financial story: multimillionaire to bankruptcy

33:57 What beliefs needed to die for Bill to move forward

35:53 "Courage is a muscle"

38:52 Leslie as the stakes character (Free Solo comparison)

40:19 "These are things I will do": active tense and commitment

42:39 Psychology degree meets filmmaking

43:36 The PBS path: NETA application process

46:33 Bitmax and Apple TV/Amazon distribution

48:06 Revenue split: 50/50 with platforms

49:14 Holiday promotions on Amazon (pitch your film!)

51:02 Deliverables: cutting 93 to 56 minutes for PBS

54:13 CNN and SiriusXM: cold emails and pitch packets

56:45 Industry Stress Test: what to do when nobody's buying

1:00:04 Uncomfortable truth: distribution doesn't make your career

1:01:01 Practical tool: scene-by-scene film study method

1:03:49 DocuView Deja View: Free Solo, Meru, Crip Camp

]]>Award-winning filmmaker Quinnolyn Benson-Yates made her first feature documentary before film school—and its seven-year journey from short film concept to PBS distribution holds lessons every indie filmmaker needs to hear.

Epic Bill follows an endurance athlete who lost everything when his video rental empire collapsed (thanks, Netflix). Bill’s mantra—“show up and suffer”—became Quinn’s filmmaking philosophy as she navigated polar vortexes, battery failures in -50° weather, and the brutal realities of distribution. In this episode, she shares how she cut a 93-minute film down to 56 minutes for PBS, why credibility matters more than connections, and the uncomfortable truth about what distribution actually solves.

DocuView Déjà Vu:

Free Solo, 2018, 100 mins, Watch on on Disney + Package / Hulu, IMDB Link: Free Solo (2018) ⭐ 8.1 | Documentary, Adventure, Sport

Meru, 2015, 90 mins, Watch on Prime Video, IMDB Link: Meru (2015) ⭐ 7.7 | Documentary, Sport

Crip Camp: A Disability Revolution, 2020, 106 mins, Watch on Netflix, IMDB Link: Crip Camp (2020) ⭐ 7.7 | Documentary, History

What You’ll Learn:

  • Why “fail early, fail often” should include “fail sustainably”
  • How archival footage transformed a short film into a feature
  • The PBS application process (NETA) and what it requires
  • What intermediaries like Bitmax do for Apple TV/Amazon distribution
  • Why distribution doesn’t make your career—you do

About Quinnolyn Benson-Yates

Quinnolyn Benson-Yates is an award-winning filmmaker with an MFA from USC School of Cinematic Arts. Her feature documentary Epic Bill gained nationwide PBS distribution with promotions on CNN and SiriusXM, and is now available on Amazon and Apple TV. She’s a two-time winner of Santa Barbara International Film Festival’s 10-10-10 competition, and her short film Miss River screened at Palm Springs LGBTQ Film Festival. Her most recent short, a Western comedy called Man, premiered at Austin Film Festival. She’s currently developing her first narrative feature about a middle school girl starting a punk band with her dad—inspired by her own childhood as an eight-year-old punk rock singer.

Website: QBY | Film: Epic Bill - The Film | Instagram: @‌quinnolyn

If you’re enjoying the show, please subscribe and leave a review!

Sponsor: Virgil Films http://www.virgilfilms.com/

Support us by buying merch or watching our films: https://documentaryfirst.com/

Follow our Substack Blog: https://documentaryfirst.substack.com/

Join our newsletter (bottom of page): https://thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/

Donate to help us tell more stories: https://givebutter.com/LivingStoriesLtd

Support the show: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CHAPTERS

0:00 Introduction

4:27 Quinn's journey: punk rocker to USC film grad

6:44 Current projects: narrative feature development

8:02 Epic Bill origin: short film becomes seven-year feature

10:08 Why documentaries take so long (pandemic, polar vortex, funding)

13:22 Bill's philosophy: "Show up and suffer"

15:06 "I am always 30 years old": renegotiating reality

17:35 Applying endurance athlete lessons to filmmaking

19:47 Bill's curiosity: inventing new challenges

21:59 Filming extreme conditions as a new filmmaker

25:26 "Fail sustainably": the mentor factor

27:01 Hardest scenes: logistical (-50° batteries) and emotional

29:35 Bill's video store sequence (longer cut only)

30:44 Bill's financial story: multimillionaire to bankruptcy

33:57 What beliefs needed to die for Bill to move forward

35:53 "Courage is a muscle"

38:52 Leslie as the stakes character (Free Solo comparison)

40:19 "These are things I will do": active tense and commitment

42:39 Psychology degree meets filmmaking

43:36 The PBS path: NETA application process

46:33 Bitmax and Apple TV/Amazon distribution

48:06 Revenue split: 50/50 with platforms

49:14 Holiday promotions on Amazon (pitch your film!)

51:02 Deliverables: cutting 93 to 56 minutes for PBS

54:13 CNN and SiriusXM: cold emails and pitch packets

56:45 Industry Stress Test: what to do when nobody's buying

1:00:04 Uncomfortable truth: distribution doesn't make your career

1:01:01 Practical tool: scene-by-scene film study method

1:03:49 DocuView Deja View: Free Solo, Meru, Crip Camp

]]>a8a7927e-3450-457c-b8b2-0a6726f72112Wed, 25 Feb 2026 00:00:00 -060001:08:51falsefull272272Finding the Good Guys: How to Vet a Film DistributorFinding the Good Guys: How to Vet a Film DistributorWhat does it feel like when your distributor actually picks up the phone?

Knowing how to vet a film distributor can save years of your film's life. Christian has heard filmmakers describe late payments, missing reports and silence after the deal. In this episode she sets that against a relationship that works, and asks how you find the good guys before you sign.

In this Deep Dive on Documentary First Episode 271, Christian looks back at her conversation with Joe Amodei, founder of Virgil Films and Entertainment, which distributes her film The Girl Who Wore Freedom and sponsors the show. What struck her wasn't one answer. It was the warmth and trust of the whole talk. Watch the full conversation: Episode 271 with Joe Amodei.

From there, Christian reads anonymous accounts from filmmakers collected by The Film Collaborative, then lays out five ways to check a distributor: talk to their filmmakers yourself, read the Distributor ReportCard, watch for red flags, hire an entertainment attorney, and know the system offers no safety net. She found there's no Better Business Bureau for this, and that consumer protection doesn't reach filmmakers, who are vendors, not customers. So community has to be the protection, the way a Minnesota pizza shop and doughnut shop became one for their neighbors. And Joe explains why 90 minutes of cat videos sold out a local theater in about four days: people want to feel good right now.

In this episode, Christian explores:

  • Why her conversation with Joe Amodei felt so different from what filmmakers usually describe
  • What filmmakers told The Film Collaborative about late payments, missing reports and silence
  • Why a distributor's own references won't tell you the whole story
  • How to use IMDbPro to find and contact a distributor's past filmmakers
  • The Film Collaborative's Distributor ReportCard where Virgil Films is among the most positively reviewed
  • Red flags: guaranteed Netflix promises, 15-year terms and uncapped expenses
  • Why an entertainment attorney who knows distribution is worth it
  • Why consumer protection doesn't cover filmmakers, who are vendors, not customers
  • What a Minnesota pizza shop and doughnut shop show about community as a safety net
  • Why a 90-minute reel of cat videos sold out Joe's local theater

Chapters

0:00 What Filmmakers Say

4:01 Five Ways to Vet

6:43 Why No Watchdog Exists

10:44 Community as Protection

14:30 Cat Videos Sell Out

Frequently Asked Questions

How do you vet a film distributor before signing?

Talk to the filmmakers they've worked with, and find them yourself. In a 2026 Documentary First Deep Dive, Christian Taylor suggested using IMDbPro to look up films in a distributor's catalog and contact those filmmakers directly, instead of relying on references the distributor hands you. Ask whether reports came on time, whether they were paid what they were owed, whether promised promotional dollars were spent, and whether they'd work with that distributor again.

What are red flags in a film distribution deal?

Christian Taylor named several in a 2026 Documentary First Deep Dive: a distributor who won't connect you with past clients, any promise of guaranteed Netflix or major platform placement, a 15-year term when three to seven years is more standard, and no cap on expenses, which can leave you paying costs you never approved. She also urged hiring an entertainment attorney who specializes in distribution.

Is there a review site for film distributors?

The closest thing is The Film Collaborative's Distributor ReportCard. Christian Taylor explained in a 2026 Documentary First Deep Dive that the nonprofit interviews at least eight filmmakers per distributor and publishes anonymous summaries. An earlier open rating site failed because filmmakers feared retaliation and blacklisting. The Better Business Bureau doesn't help much, since its complaints tend to come from consumers, not filmmakers.

Listen and Follow

Follow Documentary First wherever you listen: https://pod.fo/e/436c72

Support the Show

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect

All social platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

Source Episode

Documentary First Episode 271 with Joe Amodei

About Joe Amodei

Joe Amodei has spent more than 40 years in film distribution, going back to the VHS era. His company, Virgil Films and Entertainment, has distributed Super Size Me, Restrepo and Forks Over Knives.

About Virgil Films and Entertainment

Virgil Films and Entertainment is an independent film distributor led by Joe Amodei. Its releases include Super Size Me, Restrepo, Forks Over Knives and I Am Chris Farley. Virgil distributes Christian's film The Girl Who Wore Freedom. virgilfilms.com

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned


]]>What does it feel like when your distributor actually picks up the phone?

Knowing how to vet a film distributor can save years of your film's life. Christian has heard filmmakers describe late payments, missing reports and silence after the deal. In this episode she sets that against a relationship that works, and asks how you find the good guys before you sign.

In this Deep Dive on Documentary First Episode 271, Christian looks back at her conversation with Joe Amodei, founder of Virgil Films and Entertainment, which distributes her film The Girl Who Wore Freedom and sponsors the show. What struck her wasn't one answer. It was the warmth and trust of the whole talk. Watch the full conversation: Episode 271 with Joe Amodei.

From there, Christian reads anonymous accounts from filmmakers collected by The Film Collaborative, then lays out five ways to check a distributor: talk to their filmmakers yourself, read the Distributor ReportCard, watch for red flags, hire an entertainment attorney, and know the system offers no safety net. She found there's no Better Business Bureau for this, and that consumer protection doesn't reach filmmakers, who are vendors, not customers. So community has to be the protection, the way a Minnesota pizza shop and doughnut shop became one for their neighbors. And Joe explains why 90 minutes of cat videos sold out a local theater in about four days: people want to feel good right now.

In this episode, Christian explores:

  • Why her conversation with Joe Amodei felt so different from what filmmakers usually describe
  • What filmmakers told The Film Collaborative about late payments, missing reports and silence
  • Why a distributor's own references won't tell you the whole story
  • How to use IMDbPro to find and contact a distributor's past filmmakers
  • The Film Collaborative's Distributor ReportCard where Virgil Films is among the most positively reviewed
  • Red flags: guaranteed Netflix promises, 15-year terms and uncapped expenses
  • Why an entertainment attorney who knows distribution is worth it
  • Why consumer protection doesn't cover filmmakers, who are vendors, not customers
  • What a Minnesota pizza shop and doughnut shop show about community as a safety net
  • Why a 90-minute reel of cat videos sold out Joe's local theater

Chapters

0:00 What Filmmakers Say

4:01 Five Ways to Vet

6:43 Why No Watchdog Exists

10:44 Community as Protection

14:30 Cat Videos Sell Out

Frequently Asked Questions

How do you vet a film distributor before signing?

Talk to the filmmakers they've worked with, and find them yourself. In a 2026 Documentary First Deep Dive, Christian Taylor suggested using IMDbPro to look up films in a distributor's catalog and contact those filmmakers directly, instead of relying on references the distributor hands you. Ask whether reports came on time, whether they were paid what they were owed, whether promised promotional dollars were spent, and whether they'd work with that distributor again.

What are red flags in a film distribution deal?

Christian Taylor named several in a 2026 Documentary First Deep Dive: a distributor who won't connect you with past clients, any promise of guaranteed Netflix or major platform placement, a 15-year term when three to seven years is more standard, and no cap on expenses, which can leave you paying costs you never approved. She also urged hiring an entertainment attorney who specializes in distribution.

Is there a review site for film distributors?

The closest thing is The Film Collaborative's Distributor ReportCard. Christian Taylor explained in a 2026 Documentary First Deep Dive that the nonprofit interviews at least eight filmmakers per distributor and publishes anonymous summaries. An earlier open rating site failed because filmmakers feared retaliation and blacklisting. The Better Business Bureau doesn't help much, since its complaints tend to come from consumers, not filmmakers.

Listen and Follow

Follow Documentary First wherever you listen: https://pod.fo/e/436c72

Support the Show

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect

All social platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

Source Episode

Documentary First Episode 271 with Joe Amodei

About Joe Amodei

Joe Amodei has spent more than 40 years in film distribution, going back to the VHS era. His company, Virgil Films and Entertainment, has distributed Super Size Me, Restrepo and Forks Over Knives.

About Virgil Films and Entertainment

Virgil Films and Entertainment is an independent film distributor led by Joe Amodei. Its releases include Super Size Me, Restrepo, Forks Over Knives and I Am Chris Farley. Virgil distributes Christian's film The Girl Who Wore Freedom. virgilfilms.com

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned


]]>44d221a1-292b-4829-8a1a-d9e2aa7c4e49Thu, 19 Feb 2026 05:00:00 -060017:11falsefullWhat Documentaries Sell in 2026: True Crime to Cat VideosWhat Documentaries Sell in 2026: True Crime to Cat VideosAfter a whole career getting other people's films seen, what does a distributor learn when he makes his own?

What documentaries sell in 2026? Joe Amodei of Virgil Films ranks the genres, true crime first, sets a $250,000 ceiling for a truly independent documentary, and tells why 90 minutes of cat videos sold out his local theater in four days. His bigger point is about documentary distribution itself: getting a film onto Amazon is the easy part. Letting anyone know it's there is the hard part.

In Episode 271, Christian Taylor sits down with Joe Amodei, founder of Virgil Films and Entertainment, on the morning the 2026 Oscar nominations came out. Joe has been in the business since the days of VHS, and he says the old ways of reaching an audience, print ads, TV spots and a film critic in every town, are gone. Podcasts and blogs are slowly taking their place. He explains what changed when Amazon stopped letting individuals upload their own films, what a service deal is and who it's for, and why being in the new release section on street date matters so much.

Then the hard numbers. Joe's genre ranking, his budget ceiling, why 15% of a budget should be set aside for marketing from day one, and the two mistakes he sees most: filmmakers who haven't done their homework on who their audience is, and overspending. He walks through how to pitch a doc series to the streamers, how TVOD, SVOD and AVOD fit together, and why there's little anyone can do when a film shows up on torrent sites. Along the way he gives his honest take on the Oscar nominations, including the one film that gave him chills, Train Dreams. And at the end, Joe has news: he has written, directed and produced his first documentary, about a Philadelphia sports team. His main lesson from the other side of the table? "Never go make a movie when you have another job."

Full disclosure: Virgil Films distributes The Girl Who Wore Freedom, and it sponsors Documentary First, including this episode.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • Why podcasts are taking the place of newspaper reviews
  • Whether filmmakers can still upload to Amazon on their own
  • What a service deal is and who it's for
  • The $250,000 ceiling for a truly independent doc
  • Which documentary genres sell, from true crime to inspirational sports
  • Why 90 minutes of cat videos sold out a theater
  • What successful filmmakers do before release
  • Why 15% of your budget belongs to marketing
  • How to pitch Virgil Films, and why every film gets watched
  • How TVOD, SVOD and AVOD fit together

CHAPTERS

0:00 Joe Amodei Returns

6:13 How Will Anyone Find It?

10:18 Amazon Rules, Service Deals

15:24 Budget Ceiling, Top Genres

20:34 Cat Videos, Feel-Good Films

25:11 Oscar Nominations Morning

31:42 Build Your Audience First

37:26 Pitching the Streamers

41:17 Mistakes, Horror, Shorts

50:23 TVOD, SVOD or AVOD?

1:00:16 A Secret Sports Doc

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

How much should an independent documentary cost to make?

Joe Amodei of Virgil Films told Documentary First in 2026 that if a documentary is truly independent and will most likely go straight to transactional rentals, he would not spend more than $250,000, tops. It depends on the subject, he says. Christian Taylor added that she has talked to filmmakers who made their documentaries for $70,000, and that the less a film costs, the better it is for everybody.

What documentary genres sell best?

According to Joe Amodei, speaking in 2026, true crime sells first, health and well-being second, and inspirational stories third, including inspirational sports stories. Anything controversial or salacious may equal or top true crime. Mountain-climbing documentaries have stopped working because there are so many. Feel-good films are working, because audiences want something that takes them away from the news.

What mistakes do filmmakers make with distribution?

Joe Amodei told Documentary First in 2026 that the biggest mistake is overspending: be careful with every penny, even if it means passing on a $45,000 cinematographer. The other is arriving with no homework done on who will want to see the film. A distributor lives with a film for 90 minutes; the filmmaker has lived with it for years, so Virgil counts on filmmakers to know where their audience is.

How do you pitch a film to Virgil Films?

Joe Amodei said on Documentary First in 2026 that about 90% of the films Virgil releases come through recommendations. Filmmakers email him or his partner Tim, and in every case Virgil asks for a link and watches the film, whatever it is. If they pass, they send a short, kind email. If they're interested, the next step is a phone call. Virgil takes features, documentary or narrative, but not shorts.

What is the difference between TVOD, SVOD and AVOD?

Joe Amodei explained in 2026 that a film's first release date is usually its transactional (TVOD) date, when it can be rented or bought on sites like Amazon, iTunes and Fandango at Home. A subscription streamer (SVOD) license, if one comes, is extra money and usually arrives later. Free, ad-supported sites (AVOD) like Tubi and Pluto usually come two to three months after the transactional release, so they don't undercut rentals.

Sponsored by Virgil Films Entertainment

virgilfilms.com

Listen and Follow

https://pod.fo/e/436c73

Support the show

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect

All social platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

About the Guest

Joe Amodei has worked in film distribution since the days of VHS, at Turner, Polygram and USA Home Entertainment, before founding Virgil Films and Entertainment. He goes to the movies two or three times a week and runs a monthly classic film club at his local theater. His first documentary as director is Cold War in Philly. Follow Virgil on Instagram and X.

About Virgil Films

Virgil Films and Entertainment acquires and distributes documentaries, feature films and series, and offers both standard distribution and service deals. Its releases include Super Size Me, the Oscar-nominated Restrepo, Forks Over Knives, To Die For and Man with the Hat. virgilfilms.com

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned


]]>After a whole career getting other people's films seen, what does a distributor learn when he makes his own?

What documentaries sell in 2026? Joe Amodei of Virgil Films ranks the genres, true crime first, sets a $250,000 ceiling for a truly independent documentary, and tells why 90 minutes of cat videos sold out his local theater in four days. His bigger point is about documentary distribution itself: getting a film onto Amazon is the easy part. Letting anyone know it's there is the hard part.

In Episode 271, Christian Taylor sits down with Joe Amodei, founder of Virgil Films and Entertainment, on the morning the 2026 Oscar nominations came out. Joe has been in the business since the days of VHS, and he says the old ways of reaching an audience, print ads, TV spots and a film critic in every town, are gone. Podcasts and blogs are slowly taking their place. He explains what changed when Amazon stopped letting individuals upload their own films, what a service deal is and who it's for, and why being in the new release section on street date matters so much.

Then the hard numbers. Joe's genre ranking, his budget ceiling, why 15% of a budget should be set aside for marketing from day one, and the two mistakes he sees most: filmmakers who haven't done their homework on who their audience is, and overspending. He walks through how to pitch a doc series to the streamers, how TVOD, SVOD and AVOD fit together, and why there's little anyone can do when a film shows up on torrent sites. Along the way he gives his honest take on the Oscar nominations, including the one film that gave him chills, Train Dreams. And at the end, Joe has news: he has written, directed and produced his first documentary, about a Philadelphia sports team. His main lesson from the other side of the table? "Never go make a movie when you have another job."

Full disclosure: Virgil Films distributes The Girl Who Wore Freedom, and it sponsors Documentary First, including this episode.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • Why podcasts are taking the place of newspaper reviews
  • Whether filmmakers can still upload to Amazon on their own
  • What a service deal is and who it's for
  • The $250,000 ceiling for a truly independent doc
  • Which documentary genres sell, from true crime to inspirational sports
  • Why 90 minutes of cat videos sold out a theater
  • What successful filmmakers do before release
  • Why 15% of your budget belongs to marketing
  • How to pitch Virgil Films, and why every film gets watched
  • How TVOD, SVOD and AVOD fit together

CHAPTERS

0:00 Joe Amodei Returns

6:13 How Will Anyone Find It?

10:18 Amazon Rules, Service Deals

15:24 Budget Ceiling, Top Genres

20:34 Cat Videos, Feel-Good Films

25:11 Oscar Nominations Morning

31:42 Build Your Audience First

37:26 Pitching the Streamers

41:17 Mistakes, Horror, Shorts

50:23 TVOD, SVOD or AVOD?

1:00:16 A Secret Sports Doc

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

How much should an independent documentary cost to make?

Joe Amodei of Virgil Films told Documentary First in 2026 that if a documentary is truly independent and will most likely go straight to transactional rentals, he would not spend more than $250,000, tops. It depends on the subject, he says. Christian Taylor added that she has talked to filmmakers who made their documentaries for $70,000, and that the less a film costs, the better it is for everybody.

What documentary genres sell best?

According to Joe Amodei, speaking in 2026, true crime sells first, health and well-being second, and inspirational stories third, including inspirational sports stories. Anything controversial or salacious may equal or top true crime. Mountain-climbing documentaries have stopped working because there are so many. Feel-good films are working, because audiences want something that takes them away from the news.

What mistakes do filmmakers make with distribution?

Joe Amodei told Documentary First in 2026 that the biggest mistake is overspending: be careful with every penny, even if it means passing on a $45,000 cinematographer. The other is arriving with no homework done on who will want to see the film. A distributor lives with a film for 90 minutes; the filmmaker has lived with it for years, so Virgil counts on filmmakers to know where their audience is.

How do you pitch a film to Virgil Films?

Joe Amodei said on Documentary First in 2026 that about 90% of the films Virgil releases come through recommendations. Filmmakers email him or his partner Tim, and in every case Virgil asks for a link and watches the film, whatever it is. If they pass, they send a short, kind email. If they're interested, the next step is a phone call. Virgil takes features, documentary or narrative, but not shorts.

What is the difference between TVOD, SVOD and AVOD?

Joe Amodei explained in 2026 that a film's first release date is usually its transactional (TVOD) date, when it can be rented or bought on sites like Amazon, iTunes and Fandango at Home. A subscription streamer (SVOD) license, if one comes, is extra money and usually arrives later. Free, ad-supported sites (AVOD) like Tubi and Pluto usually come two to three months after the transactional release, so they don't undercut rentals.

Sponsored by Virgil Films Entertainment

virgilfilms.com

Listen and Follow

https://pod.fo/e/436c73

Support the show

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect

All social platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

About the Guest

Joe Amodei has worked in film distribution since the days of VHS, at Turner, Polygram and USA Home Entertainment, before founding Virgil Films and Entertainment. He goes to the movies two or three times a week and runs a monthly classic film club at his local theater. His first documentary as director is Cold War in Philly. Follow Virgil on Instagram and X.

About Virgil Films

Virgil Films and Entertainment acquires and distributes documentaries, feature films and series, and offers both standard distribution and service deals. Its releases include Super Size Me, the Oscar-nominated Restrepo, Forks Over Knives, To Die For and Man with the Hat. virgilfilms.com

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned


]]>7fe6757f-e520-48c0-9594-43c1b607a302Fri, 13 Feb 2026 02:45:00 -060001:05:47falsefull271271Why Viewers Forget 90% of Your Film | Deep Dive on Ep. 270 with Charles OlivierWhy Viewers Forget 90% of Your Film | Deep Dive with Charles Olivier“People are going to watch your movie for such an infinitesimally small percentage of their life. What they’re going to do is remember it.”

That insight from Emmy-winning editor Charles Olivier—who’s cut The Jinx, The Redeem Team, and George Clooney’s Surviving Ohio State—stopped Christian Taylor cold. It cuts right to the heart of documentary filmmaking: your audience will forget most of your film. The question is whether you’ve given them something worth remembering.

In this episode of Documentary First: The Deep Dive, Christian explores the neuroscience behind “sticky” storytelling—why emotional moments lodge in memory while everything else fades—and shares how she accidentally discovered this principle while making The Girl Who Wore Freedom.

What You’ll Explore:

  • The Memory Paradox: Why viewers forget 90% of your film—and why that’s okay
  • Brain Synchronization: How emotional moments literally sync your audience’s neural patterns
  • The Gist vs. Detail Trade-Off: What neuroscience says about what sticks and what fades
  • Human Connection Over Subject Matter: Why Charles focuses on relationships, not topics

The Framework for Memorable Storytelling:

  1. Ask: What do I want people to remember six months from now?
  2. Find: The human moments—not the dramatic footage
  3. Build: Your entire film around those moments

Featured Filmmaker: Charles Olivier—Emmy-winning editor whose credits include The Jinx (HBO), The Redeem Team (Netflix), and Surviving Ohio State (HBO/George Clooney). His insight about what audiences remember sparked this entire exploration.

About Documentary First: Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Hear the full interview: Listen to Episode 270 of Documentary First for Christian’s complete conversation with Charles Olivier about editing, working with George Clooney, and structuring documentaries like symphonies. https://open.spotify.com/episode/3yEp5LhuBAlCZACwKpyamR?si=7cdcc3936bbe4256

If you’re enjoying the show, please subscribe and leave a review!

]]>“People are going to watch your movie for such an infinitesimally small percentage of their life. What they’re going to do is remember it.”

That insight from Emmy-winning editor Charles Olivier—who’s cut The Jinx, The Redeem Team, and George Clooney’s Surviving Ohio State—stopped Christian Taylor cold. It cuts right to the heart of documentary filmmaking: your audience will forget most of your film. The question is whether you’ve given them something worth remembering.

In this episode of Documentary First: The Deep Dive, Christian explores the neuroscience behind “sticky” storytelling—why emotional moments lodge in memory while everything else fades—and shares how she accidentally discovered this principle while making The Girl Who Wore Freedom.

What You’ll Explore:

  • The Memory Paradox: Why viewers forget 90% of your film—and why that’s okay
  • Brain Synchronization: How emotional moments literally sync your audience’s neural patterns
  • The Gist vs. Detail Trade-Off: What neuroscience says about what sticks and what fades
  • Human Connection Over Subject Matter: Why Charles focuses on relationships, not topics

The Framework for Memorable Storytelling:

  1. Ask: What do I want people to remember six months from now?
  2. Find: The human moments—not the dramatic footage
  3. Build: Your entire film around those moments

Featured Filmmaker: Charles Olivier—Emmy-winning editor whose credits include The Jinx (HBO), The Redeem Team (Netflix), and Surviving Ohio State (HBO/George Clooney). His insight about what audiences remember sparked this entire exploration.

About Documentary First: Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Hear the full interview: Listen to Episode 270 of Documentary First for Christian’s complete conversation with Charles Olivier about editing, working with George Clooney, and structuring documentaries like symphonies. https://open.spotify.com/episode/3yEp5LhuBAlCZACwKpyamR?si=7cdcc3936bbe4256

If you’re enjoying the show, please subscribe and leave a review!

]]>7004255c-5b19-4c3b-af3a-82f2eb5be4d5Thu, 05 Feb 2026 05:00:00 -060016:13falsefullThe Imposter Gap | Deep Dive on Ep. 269 with Jeffrey RothThe Imposter Gap | Deep Dive with Jeffrey RothImagine standing in an ancient Egyptian tomb, camera in hand, as a sarcophagus is opened for the first time in thousands of years. For filmmaker Jeffrey Roth, that moment sparked a realization: "No, this is real."

This is the first-ever episode of Documentary First: The Deep Dive—a new companion series where Christian Taylor takes one insight from recent podcast conversations, explores it deeply, and connects it to the universal experience of creative work.

In this episode, Christian unpacks why "mountaintop moments"—the ones you've worked years to reach—often feel completely different than you expect. Drawing from her own journey filming at Brecourt Manor in Normandy (the most famous house on D-Day), Christian explores the psychology behind why doubt doesn't disappear when dreams come true, and how the discipline of presence keeps us from missing the very moments we worked so hard to achieve.

What You'll Explore:

· • The Imposter Gap: Why calling yourself an "actor" or "filmmaker" for the first time feels like a lie

· • Hedonic Adaptation: The psychological reason our brains move to the "next worry" before a breakthrough even sinks in

· • Presence vs. Panic: How to stay grounded when you're terrified the "file won't play" during your big debut

· • The Mountaintop Rule: Why valleys aren't failures—they're just part of the terrain

Three Practical Steps to Stay Present:

  1. Breathe: Let the exact moment sink in; it will never come again
  2. Gratitude: Think of the people who helped you get to this field or tomb
  3. Perspective: Learn to ride the highs with joy and the lows with steadiness

Featured Filmmaker: Jeffrey Roth—documentary filmmaker whose work includes being embedded with archaeological teams uncovering ancient Egyptian tombs. His insight about realizing "no, this is real" sparked this entire exploration.

About Documentary First: Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Hear the full interview with Jeffrey Roth: Listen to his complete Documentary First episode for the backstory behind this moment and his incredible filmmaking journey.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/0fyVxSooH2HViLHVhAln3i?si=f6fe555b10d24a70

If you're enjoying the show, please subscribe and leave a review!

]]>Imagine standing in an ancient Egyptian tomb, camera in hand, as a sarcophagus is opened for the first time in thousands of years. For filmmaker Jeffrey Roth, that moment sparked a realization: "No, this is real."

This is the first-ever episode of Documentary First: The Deep Dive—a new companion series where Christian Taylor takes one insight from recent podcast conversations, explores it deeply, and connects it to the universal experience of creative work.

In this episode, Christian unpacks why "mountaintop moments"—the ones you've worked years to reach—often feel completely different than you expect. Drawing from her own journey filming at Brecourt Manor in Normandy (the most famous house on D-Day), Christian explores the psychology behind why doubt doesn't disappear when dreams come true, and how the discipline of presence keeps us from missing the very moments we worked so hard to achieve.

What You'll Explore:

· • The Imposter Gap: Why calling yourself an "actor" or "filmmaker" for the first time feels like a lie

· • Hedonic Adaptation: The psychological reason our brains move to the "next worry" before a breakthrough even sinks in

· • Presence vs. Panic: How to stay grounded when you're terrified the "file won't play" during your big debut

· • The Mountaintop Rule: Why valleys aren't failures—they're just part of the terrain

Three Practical Steps to Stay Present:

  1. Breathe: Let the exact moment sink in; it will never come again
  2. Gratitude: Think of the people who helped you get to this field or tomb
  3. Perspective: Learn to ride the highs with joy and the lows with steadiness

Featured Filmmaker: Jeffrey Roth—documentary filmmaker whose work includes being embedded with archaeological teams uncovering ancient Egyptian tombs. His insight about realizing "no, this is real" sparked this entire exploration.

About Documentary First: Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Hear the full interview with Jeffrey Roth: Listen to his complete Documentary First episode for the backstory behind this moment and his incredible filmmaking journey.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/0fyVxSooH2HViLHVhAln3i?si=f6fe555b10d24a70

If you're enjoying the show, please subscribe and leave a review!

]]>43de3cd8-f67c-4549-9791-71ce6760e556Thu, 05 Feb 2026 05:00:00 -060007:22falsefullCharles Olivier on Editing Surviving Ohio State for HBOCharles Olivier on Editing Surviving Ohio State for HBOWhat does an editor owe the men whose stories no one wanted to hear?

That was the weight Charles Olivier carried into Surviving Ohio State, the HBO documentary from Oscar winner Eva Orner about decades of abuse by a team doctor in Ohio State's athletic programs. As Charles says, the stories weren't new. They were out there. The heartbreak, as he puts it, was that "hundreds into thousands of men" were ignored, mocked or pushed aside, and then rejected when they came forward.

In Episode 270, Christian sits down with Charles, the Emmy and Peabody Award-winning editor of The Jinx, The Redeem Team and Magic and Bird, from his home in France. He came onto the film as "fresh eyes" after a first cut, pitched his outline to the whole team on Zoom, and saw his job the way he sees every job: "you're kind of a midwife" to the director. He grew up in Texas in the same years these athletes were wrestling, played football, and has two little boys. Of all his films, he says, "this is really the one that I want my sons to watch."

Charles talks about how he got here: getting sick in film school and staying in New York, apprenticing for Sam Pollard, and cutting the Jackie Robinson story in Ezra Edelman's Brooklyn Dodgers film for HBO. "I'm not like a sports guy, which is the genius of it all," he says. For him it was always about the relationships. He builds a film the way a composer builds a symphony, "trying to sculpt emotion and engagement, tone and response over time," and he anchored this one in two wrestlers, Dan and Mike, so a number too big to grasp would still feel human. He also shares what it's like to get notes, and YouTube clips, from George Clooney.

WATCH THE FILM: Surviving Ohio State premiered on HBO on June 17, 2025, and streams on HBO Max.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • What it means to be hired as "fresh eyes" on a film that's already been cut
  • Why Charles thinks of an editor as a midwife to the director
  • How a film school illness and an apprenticeship with Sam Pollard started his career
  • Why not being a sports guy helped him cut sports documentaries
  • What Ezra Edelman taught him about what viewers remember
  • How symphonic form shapes the structure of his films
  • How to keep more than a thousand victims from becoming just a number
  • Why he writes down his own first reactions to the footage
  • What notes from George Clooney and Grant Heslov were like
  • Why watching a cut with someone else wakes you up to it

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Who edited Surviving Ohio State?

Charles Olivier edited Surviving Ohio State, the 2025 HBO documentary directed by Eva Orner. He tells Christian he came in as "fresh eyes" after the film had already been cut once for HBO. The producers spent a summer interviewing editors, and he won the job by writing up an outline, pitching it to the whole team on Zoom, and talking at length with Eva about the story she wanted to tell.

What is Surviving Ohio State about?

Surviving Ohio State is about male athletes, mostly wrestlers, who were abused by a team doctor at Ohio State through the 1970s, 80s and 90s. Charles Olivier says the film is less about the doctor than about the betrayal that followed, when the men came forward and were ignored or rejected. It is based on Jon Wertheim's 2020 Sports Illustrated story, premiered at Tribeca in June 2025 and aired on HBO June 17, 2025.

How does music influence documentary editing?

Charles Olivier, who has a background in music composition, structures documentaries more like classical symphonies than three-act stories. He says symphonic form does what a film does: it sculpts emotion and engagement, tone and response over time. For Surviving Ohio State, he wanted one theme that felt warm and intimate and another that felt vast, cold and unstoppable, the men facing off with institutions.

What was it like working with George Clooney?

Charles Olivier says George Clooney, who produced Surviving Ohio State with Grant Heslov, was very polite and "a really lovely guy." Clooney's notes were about emotion, while Heslov's were about logic and arcs, so the notes sometimes contradicted each other. Clooney also sent YouTube clips he had found himself, and when one didn't fit, he agreed it didn't work.

DOCUVIEW DEJA VIEW PICK

  • Fyre (2019), directed by Chris Smith, on Netflix. Charles's pick, about the failed Fyre music festival. Two documentaries on the same event came out within days of each other, and he recommends this one for how well it's put together. Watch it with the structure in mind.

See every guest pick on the DocuView Deja View page.

SPONSORED BY VIRGIL FILMS ENTERTAINMENT

With over 25 years of distribution experience, Virgil Films works with every major platform directly, with deals from standard distribution to service deals. Learn more at virgilfilms.com.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen on your favorite app: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT

Documentary First: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Charles Olivier is an Emmy and Peabody Award-winning editor and writer with more than 20 years in film, television and audio. His credits include Deadline, the History Channel series 10 Days That Unexpectedly Changed America, Brooklyn Dodgers: Ghosts of Flatbush and Magic and Bird: A Courtship of Rivals (Peabody Award) with Ezra Edelman, The Redeem Team (Emmy, 2023), and HBO's The Jinx: Part Two, for which he was Emmy-nominated for picture editing in 2024. He has worked with HBO, Netflix, PBS and Amazon, and divides his time between France, New York and Los Angeles. Charles on IMDb

More from Charles: In a Deep Dive, Christian follows one idea from this conversation, why viewers forget most of a film and remember the human moments: Why Viewers Forget 90% of Your Film.

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>What does an editor owe the men whose stories no one wanted to hear?

That was the weight Charles Olivier carried into Surviving Ohio State, the HBO documentary from Oscar winner Eva Orner about decades of abuse by a team doctor in Ohio State's athletic programs. As Charles says, the stories weren't new. They were out there. The heartbreak, as he puts it, was that "hundreds into thousands of men" were ignored, mocked or pushed aside, and then rejected when they came forward.

In Episode 270, Christian sits down with Charles, the Emmy and Peabody Award-winning editor of The Jinx, The Redeem Team and Magic and Bird, from his home in France. He came onto the film as "fresh eyes" after a first cut, pitched his outline to the whole team on Zoom, and saw his job the way he sees every job: "you're kind of a midwife" to the director. He grew up in Texas in the same years these athletes were wrestling, played football, and has two little boys. Of all his films, he says, "this is really the one that I want my sons to watch."

Charles talks about how he got here: getting sick in film school and staying in New York, apprenticing for Sam Pollard, and cutting the Jackie Robinson story in Ezra Edelman's Brooklyn Dodgers film for HBO. "I'm not like a sports guy, which is the genius of it all," he says. For him it was always about the relationships. He builds a film the way a composer builds a symphony, "trying to sculpt emotion and engagement, tone and response over time," and he anchored this one in two wrestlers, Dan and Mike, so a number too big to grasp would still feel human. He also shares what it's like to get notes, and YouTube clips, from George Clooney.

WATCH THE FILM: Surviving Ohio State premiered on HBO on June 17, 2025, and streams on HBO Max.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • What it means to be hired as "fresh eyes" on a film that's already been cut
  • Why Charles thinks of an editor as a midwife to the director
  • How a film school illness and an apprenticeship with Sam Pollard started his career
  • Why not being a sports guy helped him cut sports documentaries
  • What Ezra Edelman taught him about what viewers remember
  • How symphonic form shapes the structure of his films
  • How to keep more than a thousand victims from becoming just a number
  • Why he writes down his own first reactions to the footage
  • What notes from George Clooney and Grant Heslov were like
  • Why watching a cut with someone else wakes you up to it

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Who edited Surviving Ohio State?

Charles Olivier edited Surviving Ohio State, the 2025 HBO documentary directed by Eva Orner. He tells Christian he came in as "fresh eyes" after the film had already been cut once for HBO. The producers spent a summer interviewing editors, and he won the job by writing up an outline, pitching it to the whole team on Zoom, and talking at length with Eva about the story she wanted to tell.

What is Surviving Ohio State about?

Surviving Ohio State is about male athletes, mostly wrestlers, who were abused by a team doctor at Ohio State through the 1970s, 80s and 90s. Charles Olivier says the film is less about the doctor than about the betrayal that followed, when the men came forward and were ignored or rejected. It is based on Jon Wertheim's 2020 Sports Illustrated story, premiered at Tribeca in June 2025 and aired on HBO June 17, 2025.

How does music influence documentary editing?

Charles Olivier, who has a background in music composition, structures documentaries more like classical symphonies than three-act stories. He says symphonic form does what a film does: it sculpts emotion and engagement, tone and response over time. For Surviving Ohio State, he wanted one theme that felt warm and intimate and another that felt vast, cold and unstoppable, the men facing off with institutions.

What was it like working with George Clooney?

Charles Olivier says George Clooney, who produced Surviving Ohio State with Grant Heslov, was very polite and "a really lovely guy." Clooney's notes were about emotion, while Heslov's were about logic and arcs, so the notes sometimes contradicted each other. Clooney also sent YouTube clips he had found himself, and when one didn't fit, he agreed it didn't work.

DOCUVIEW DEJA VIEW PICK

  • Fyre (2019), directed by Chris Smith, on Netflix. Charles's pick, about the failed Fyre music festival. Two documentaries on the same event came out within days of each other, and he recommends this one for how well it's put together. Watch it with the structure in mind.

See every guest pick on the DocuView Deja View page.

SPONSORED BY VIRGIL FILMS ENTERTAINMENT

With over 25 years of distribution experience, Virgil Films works with every major platform directly, with deals from standard distribution to service deals. Learn more at virgilfilms.com.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen on your favorite app: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT

Documentary First: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Charles Olivier is an Emmy and Peabody Award-winning editor and writer with more than 20 years in film, television and audio. His credits include Deadline, the History Channel series 10 Days That Unexpectedly Changed America, Brooklyn Dodgers: Ghosts of Flatbush and Magic and Bird: A Courtship of Rivals (Peabody Award) with Ezra Edelman, The Redeem Team (Emmy, 2023), and HBO's The Jinx: Part Two, for which he was Emmy-nominated for picture editing in 2024. He has worked with HBO, Netflix, PBS and Amazon, and divides his time between France, New York and Los Angeles. Charles on IMDb

More from Charles: In a Deep Dive, Christian follows one idea from this conversation, why viewers forget most of a film and remember the human moments: Why Viewers Forget 90% of Your Film.

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>2a4cb809-f351-42f8-b3d2-01c0aa9e97c3Thu, 29 Jan 2026 05:00:00 -060057:31falsefull270270Zahi Hawass Documentary: Making The Man with the HatZahi Hawass Documentary: Making The Man with the HatHow do you make a film about world-renowned Egyptologist Zahi Hawass, with no narrator, no talking heads and sometimes just an hour at a site?

That was the job Jeffrey Roth took on in The Man with the Hat, his independent documentary about Dr. Zahi Hawass, distributed by Virgil Films. Jeffrey had already made The Wonder of It All, about the Apollo astronauts, and 41, his HBO portrait of President George H.W. Bush. Every one of his films lets a living person tell their own story. With Zahi, that meant following a man who never stops moving, across Egypt, with a small crew and his own money.

In Episode 269, Christian sits down with Jeffrey, who explains how it started: one email through a website, a reply within an hour, and a meeting in Salt Lake City a week later, in December 2022. Within 10 minutes Zahi had Jeffrey's pad of paper and was mapping out the shoot. He wanted Jeffrey in Egypt in February. Jeffrey walks through what that took: a fixer, a letter to the Egyptian embassy in Washington, a serial number for every piece of gear, and permits that sometimes gave the crew one hour at a site they'd never seen. "You want to make movies, you want to do things, but then you realize over there, no, this is real," he says.

The best moments weren't planned. On the first shoot, at Saqqara, a local man pointed down and said "mummies," and the crew found five of them lying in the dirt. Jeffrey had the photo blown up for Zahi, who asked for a copy, and it was finally handed over in Egypt on the day Zahi's granddaughter happened to be there. The crew was also filming about 140 miles from Gaza on October 7, 2023. Then Jeffrey tells the story behind 41: three years, on and off, with President Bush, a White House that allowed one camera and no audio, and a gift he has worn only once.

WATCH THE FILM: The Man with the Hat is available on Amazon Prime Video, Apple TV, Fandango at Home, Google Play and Vimeo On Demand. All the links are on zahifilm.com.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How one email led to a documentary with Zahi Hawass
  • Why Jeffrey funds his films himself, and the trade-off that comes with it
  • What it takes to get permission to film in Egypt
  • How a fixer works, and why Jeffrey thought 15% was fair
  • How to direct someone who has told his stories thousands of times
  • Why Jeffrey left out every interview Zahi asked him to film
  • How five mummies at Saqqara became one of the film's best scenes
  • What it was like filming in Egypt on October 7, 2023
  • How a screening of The Wonder of It All led to 41 with George H.W. Bush
  • How success for a documentary moved from theaters to HBO to streaming

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Who made The Man with the Hat, the Zahi Hawass documentary?

Jeffrey Roth directed The Man with the Hat, and Virgil Films distributes it. Jeffrey says he reached Dr. Zahi Hawass by emailing him through a website, heard back within an hour, and met him in Salt Lake City in December 2022. The film has no narrator and no talking heads. Zahi tells his own story, the style Jeffrey uses in all his films.

How do you get permission to film a documentary in Egypt?

Jeffrey Roth says you start with a fixer, because you can't just show up and ask to shoot. Then you write to the Egyptian embassy in Washington, DC, which forwards the request to the ministries in Egypt. He was advised to bring a small crew, hire locally and bring little gear, since every piece of equipment needs a serial number on record. Some permits allowed only an hour at a site.

How much does a fixer cost for filming in Egypt?

Jeffrey Roth didn't give a total, but he explained the deal. The fixer handled visas, transportation, hotels, permits, crew and vehicles, and added about 15% on top of what everything else cost. Most costs in Egypt were flat day rates, not hourly. Jeffrey says he thought the fee was fair and never felt overcharged.

Did Zahi Hawass like The Man with the Hat?

Jeffrey Roth says Zahi watched it in a theater with 30 or 40 people and said little. Everywhere they went, Zahi had asked the crew to interview other people about him, and Jeffrey left all of it out. After the screening Zahi told him, "Jeff, you didn't use any of the interviews." Jeffrey asked if he missed them. Zahi said no.

How did Jeffrey Roth get access to George H.W. Bush for 41?

After a screening of The Wonder of It All at the Bush library, Jeffrey was invited to Walker's Point in Kennebunkport and asked the chief of staff if the former president might be interested. She told him to write something. When he landed back from a trip to Australia, an email said Bush was "intrigued." Six weeks later they were shooting.

DOCUVIEW DEJA VIEW PICK

  • The Kid Stays in the Picture (2002), directed by Nanette Burstein and Brett Morgen. Jeffrey's pick, about Hollywood producer Robert Evans, told in his own voice. Jeffrey says the way it used photographs and film tools has stayed with him for 23 years.

See every guest pick on the DocuView Deja View page.

SPONSORED BY VIRGIL FILMS ENTERTAINMENT

Virgil Films has more than 25 years of experience in film distribution and works directly with filmmakers and streaming platforms. Learn more at virgilfilms.com.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen on your favorite app: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT

Documentary First: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Jeffrey Roth is a director and executive producer. His first feature, The Wonder of It All, is an award-winning documentary about the Apollo astronauts, with Buzz Aldrin, Alan Bean, Edgar Mitchell, John Young, Charlie Duke, Eugene Cernan and Harrison Schmitt. He went on to make 41 for HBO (2012), a personal portrait of President George H.W. Bush, executive produced by Jerry Weintraub. His CNN Film President in Waiting (2020) brings together Presidents Barack Obama, George W. Bush, Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter and Vice Presidents Joe Biden, Mike Pence, Dick Cheney, Al Gore, Dan Quayle and Walter Mondale to tell how the vice presidency grew into one of the most powerful offices in the world. His films: playground-docs.com

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>How do you make a film about world-renowned Egyptologist Zahi Hawass, with no narrator, no talking heads and sometimes just an hour at a site?

That was the job Jeffrey Roth took on in The Man with the Hat, his independent documentary about Dr. Zahi Hawass, distributed by Virgil Films. Jeffrey had already made The Wonder of It All, about the Apollo astronauts, and 41, his HBO portrait of President George H.W. Bush. Every one of his films lets a living person tell their own story. With Zahi, that meant following a man who never stops moving, across Egypt, with a small crew and his own money.

In Episode 269, Christian sits down with Jeffrey, who explains how it started: one email through a website, a reply within an hour, and a meeting in Salt Lake City a week later, in December 2022. Within 10 minutes Zahi had Jeffrey's pad of paper and was mapping out the shoot. He wanted Jeffrey in Egypt in February. Jeffrey walks through what that took: a fixer, a letter to the Egyptian embassy in Washington, a serial number for every piece of gear, and permits that sometimes gave the crew one hour at a site they'd never seen. "You want to make movies, you want to do things, but then you realize over there, no, this is real," he says.

The best moments weren't planned. On the first shoot, at Saqqara, a local man pointed down and said "mummies," and the crew found five of them lying in the dirt. Jeffrey had the photo blown up for Zahi, who asked for a copy, and it was finally handed over in Egypt on the day Zahi's granddaughter happened to be there. The crew was also filming about 140 miles from Gaza on October 7, 2023. Then Jeffrey tells the story behind 41: three years, on and off, with President Bush, a White House that allowed one camera and no audio, and a gift he has worn only once.

WATCH THE FILM: The Man with the Hat is available on Amazon Prime Video, Apple TV, Fandango at Home, Google Play and Vimeo On Demand. All the links are on zahifilm.com.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How one email led to a documentary with Zahi Hawass
  • Why Jeffrey funds his films himself, and the trade-off that comes with it
  • What it takes to get permission to film in Egypt
  • How a fixer works, and why Jeffrey thought 15% was fair
  • How to direct someone who has told his stories thousands of times
  • Why Jeffrey left out every interview Zahi asked him to film
  • How five mummies at Saqqara became one of the film's best scenes
  • What it was like filming in Egypt on October 7, 2023
  • How a screening of The Wonder of It All led to 41 with George H.W. Bush
  • How success for a documentary moved from theaters to HBO to streaming

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Who made The Man with the Hat, the Zahi Hawass documentary?

Jeffrey Roth directed The Man with the Hat, and Virgil Films distributes it. Jeffrey says he reached Dr. Zahi Hawass by emailing him through a website, heard back within an hour, and met him in Salt Lake City in December 2022. The film has no narrator and no talking heads. Zahi tells his own story, the style Jeffrey uses in all his films.

How do you get permission to film a documentary in Egypt?

Jeffrey Roth says you start with a fixer, because you can't just show up and ask to shoot. Then you write to the Egyptian embassy in Washington, DC, which forwards the request to the ministries in Egypt. He was advised to bring a small crew, hire locally and bring little gear, since every piece of equipment needs a serial number on record. Some permits allowed only an hour at a site.

How much does a fixer cost for filming in Egypt?

Jeffrey Roth didn't give a total, but he explained the deal. The fixer handled visas, transportation, hotels, permits, crew and vehicles, and added about 15% on top of what everything else cost. Most costs in Egypt were flat day rates, not hourly. Jeffrey says he thought the fee was fair and never felt overcharged.

Did Zahi Hawass like The Man with the Hat?

Jeffrey Roth says Zahi watched it in a theater with 30 or 40 people and said little. Everywhere they went, Zahi had asked the crew to interview other people about him, and Jeffrey left all of it out. After the screening Zahi told him, "Jeff, you didn't use any of the interviews." Jeffrey asked if he missed them. Zahi said no.

How did Jeffrey Roth get access to George H.W. Bush for 41?

After a screening of The Wonder of It All at the Bush library, Jeffrey was invited to Walker's Point in Kennebunkport and asked the chief of staff if the former president might be interested. She told him to write something. When he landed back from a trip to Australia, an email said Bush was "intrigued." Six weeks later they were shooting.

DOCUVIEW DEJA VIEW PICK

  • The Kid Stays in the Picture (2002), directed by Nanette Burstein and Brett Morgen. Jeffrey's pick, about Hollywood producer Robert Evans, told in his own voice. Jeffrey says the way it used photographs and film tools has stayed with him for 23 years.

See every guest pick on the DocuView Deja View page.

SPONSORED BY VIRGIL FILMS ENTERTAINMENT

Virgil Films has more than 25 years of experience in film distribution and works directly with filmmakers and streaming platforms. Learn more at virgilfilms.com.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen on your favorite app: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT

Documentary First: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Jeffrey Roth is a director and executive producer. His first feature, The Wonder of It All, is an award-winning documentary about the Apollo astronauts, with Buzz Aldrin, Alan Bean, Edgar Mitchell, John Young, Charlie Duke, Eugene Cernan and Harrison Schmitt. He went on to make 41 for HBO (2012), a personal portrait of President George H.W. Bush, executive produced by Jerry Weintraub. His CNN Film President in Waiting (2020) brings together Presidents Barack Obama, George W. Bush, Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter and Vice Presidents Joe Biden, Mike Pence, Dick Cheney, Al Gore, Dan Quayle and Walter Mondale to tell how the vice presidency grew into one of the most powerful offices in the world. His films: playground-docs.com

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>a77f820b-30d1-478a-891f-892666b460e8Thu, 15 Jan 2026 03:33:00 -060001:15:28falsefull269269Episode 268 | Peter Kelly’s Archaeological Adventure in the Turks and CaicosPeter Kelly’s Archaeological Adventure in the Turks and CaicosIn this episode of Documentary First, host Christian Taylor sits down with filmmaker Peter Kelly to explore his remarkable journey from his Mississippi roots to documenting the rich cultural and maritime history of Salt Cay in the Turks and Caicos. Peter reflects on how growing up in a small Mississippi community shaped his storytelling sensibilities, his love of history, and the creative instincts that now guide his work.

The conversation dives into the realities of filming in a remote island location—limited resources, environmental challenges, and the unexpected surprises that come with working far off the grid. Peter shares the thought process behind crafting his documentary: how he chose his subjects, the equipment he relied on, and why capturing a holistic portrait of the island mattered deeply to him.

Ultimately, this episode celebrates the art of discovery—of place, of story, and of self. It’s a thoughtful look at the creative process behind documentary filmmaking and the passion that drives filmmakers to preserve cultural heritage and amplify unheard stories.

Links:

The ShipwreckSurvey: Home - The Shipwreck Survey

Prom Night In Mississippi: Prom Night in Mississippi (2009) ⭐ 7.2 | Documentary

Cotopaxi: Cotopaxi - Gear For Good | Free shipping on orders $99+

Ikelite: Ikelite

PK Production Services: Peter Kelly | Storyteller // Adventurer // Speaker

Socials: instagram.com/PCKELLY1369

https://www.instagram.com/salt_n_silence/

DocuView Déjà Vu

Virunga, 2014, 100 mins, Watch on Netflix, IMDB Link: Virunga (2014) ⭐ 8.1 | Documentary, War

Time Codes

00:00 — Introduction: The Art of Documentary Filmmaking

01:30 — Growing Up in Mississippi: The Roots of Peter’s Storytelling

11:04 — Discovering Salt Cay: The Heartbeat of the Documentary

15:34 — Creative Decision-Making: From Writing to Filming

20:13 — Filming on a Remote Island: Gear, Environment & Resourcefulness

27:19 — Maritime Archaeology: Uncovering Hidden History

28:45 — Surprises, Setbacks & Learning Opportunities on Location

33:02 — DocuView Déjà Vu: Documentary Recommendations

Sponsor: Virgil Films http://www.virgilfilms.com/

Support us by buying merch or watching our films: https://documentaryfirst.com/

]]>In this episode of Documentary First, host Christian Taylor sits down with filmmaker Peter Kelly to explore his remarkable journey from his Mississippi roots to documenting the rich cultural and maritime history of Salt Cay in the Turks and Caicos. Peter reflects on how growing up in a small Mississippi community shaped his storytelling sensibilities, his love of history, and the creative instincts that now guide his work.

The conversation dives into the realities of filming in a remote island location—limited resources, environmental challenges, and the unexpected surprises that come with working far off the grid. Peter shares the thought process behind crafting his documentary: how he chose his subjects, the equipment he relied on, and why capturing a holistic portrait of the island mattered deeply to him.

Ultimately, this episode celebrates the art of discovery—of place, of story, and of self. It’s a thoughtful look at the creative process behind documentary filmmaking and the passion that drives filmmakers to preserve cultural heritage and amplify unheard stories.

Links:

The ShipwreckSurvey: Home - The Shipwreck Survey

Prom Night In Mississippi: Prom Night in Mississippi (2009) ⭐ 7.2 | Documentary

Cotopaxi: Cotopaxi - Gear For Good | Free shipping on orders $99+

Ikelite: Ikelite

PK Production Services: Peter Kelly | Storyteller // Adventurer // Speaker

Socials: instagram.com/PCKELLY1369

https://www.instagram.com/salt_n_silence/

DocuView Déjà Vu

Virunga, 2014, 100 mins, Watch on Netflix, IMDB Link: Virunga (2014) ⭐ 8.1 | Documentary, War

Time Codes

00:00 — Introduction: The Art of Documentary Filmmaking

01:30 — Growing Up in Mississippi: The Roots of Peter’s Storytelling

11:04 — Discovering Salt Cay: The Heartbeat of the Documentary

15:34 — Creative Decision-Making: From Writing to Filming

20:13 — Filming on a Remote Island: Gear, Environment & Resourcefulness

27:19 — Maritime Archaeology: Uncovering Hidden History

28:45 — Surprises, Setbacks & Learning Opportunities on Location

33:02 — DocuView Déjà Vu: Documentary Recommendations

Sponsor: Virgil Films http://www.virgilfilms.com/

Support us by buying merch or watching our films: https://documentaryfirst.com/

]]>198af81b-445f-4981-8a18-499e1e718821Thu, 01 Jan 2026 01:32:00 -060037:15falsefull268268Quiet Voices in a Noisy World: Alan Govenar on Jasper, TexasQuiet Voices in a Noisy World: Alan Govenar on Jasper, TexasWhat happens when a town known for one terrible crime starts telling its own story?

That's the heart of Quiet Voices in a Noisy World: The Struggle for Change in Jasper, Texas, the documentary Alan Govenar built from about 30 years of work in Jasper. The world knows Jasper for the 1998 murder of James Byrd Jr. Alan's film follows the Black volunteers, many in their 70s and 80s, who are reclaiming their community's history with roadside markers and memorials. He gave them a kind of veto power over the title. "They are people with quiet voices who are making a huge difference in their world," he says.

In Episode 267, Christian sits down with Alan, a writer, folklorist, photographer and filmmaker whose career spans 44 years. He started a novel at 18 and published it 52 years later. He made his first film with Les Blank, who shot it, lent him the money to finish it and premiered it at Film Forum in 1981. Along the way, Alan gave up all ownership of that film for 10 years. In 1985 he founded the nonprofit Documentary Arts, and in 1984, he says, there were no known Black photographers in any public collection in Texas. So he went looking for them in business directories.

That search led to Jasper. Alonzo Jordan was a photographer and barber there. After his death, a storm ripped the roof off his barbershop, and his widow gave his collection to Documentary Arts. Alan talks about a 1907 lynching postcard that a white woman found among her mother's things and handed to journalist Bob Ray Sanders, about shooting his last three features largely on an iPhone, and about the John Lomax recordings made in Jasper, which he calls a breakthrough for the film. "What makes them art for me is when you create this kind of tension between fact and feeling," he says.

WATCH THE FILM: Quiet Voices in a Noisy World is distributed by First Run Features. Screenings and viewing options are on the film's site, quietvoicesinanoisyworld.org.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • Why Alan believes "experience is documentary"
  • How a 50-pound Sony Portapak led to his first little video
  • What Les Blank taught him about mentorship, money and audience
  • Why he gave up ownership of his first film for 10 years
  • How Documentary Arts was built to last as a nonprofit
  • How he found Black photographers missing from Texas collections
  • Why the people of Jasper had a say in the film's title
  • Why the film has no narrator, and how he and his editor write it together
  • How he shoots features on an iPhone
  • How Library of Congress recordings shaped the film's music

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What is Quiet Voices in a Noisy World about?

Alan Govenar's documentary is about Black volunteers in Jasper, Texas, many in their 70s and 80s, who are reclaiming their community's history. It sets their work against Jasper's long history of racial violence, including the 1998 murder of James Byrd Jr. Alan says the film covers about 30 years of his work there and ends in hope, because of the resilience of the people who live there.

Who was Alonzo Jordan?

Alonzo Jordan was a Black photographer and barber in Jasper, Texas, and he's part of the subject of the film. Alan Govenar says Jordan was a church elder and a Prince Hall Mason who understood photography as a way to bolster self-esteem. After his death, a storm ripped the roof off his barbershop, and his widow gave the collection to Documentary Arts, which is now giving the digitized photos back to Jasper.

How do you fund a documentary through a nonprofit?

Alan Govenar founded Documentary Arts in 1985 as an umbrella for his work, so he could apply for grants. By design, he says, he was never its full-time executive director. He and everyone else who works for it are contract employees, and projects ebb and flow. Films made with grants through Documentary Arts are copyrighted to the nonprofit, which he hopes can be a sustainable model.

Can you shoot a documentary on an iPhone?

Alan Govenar says his last three features were shot largely on his iPhone. It works for him because it isn't intrusive and the picture quality is great, as long as you understand its limits. For Quiet Voices in a Noisy World he also had a cameraman he has worked with in France come for Juneteenth, plus a local cameraman he has worked with for many years.

DOCUVIEW DEJA VIEW PICK

  • Night and Fog (1956), directed by Alain Resnais. Alan's pick, a 32-minute film about the Nazi camps, with narration written by camp survivor Jean Cayrol. Alan says it showed him the power of the interplay between words and pictures.

See every guest pick on the DocuView Deja View page.

SPONSORED BY VIRGIL FILMS ENTERTAINMENT

Virgil Films has more than 25 years of experience in film distribution and works directly with filmmakers and streaming platforms. Learn more at virgilfilms.com.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen on your favorite app: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT

Documentary First: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Alan Govenar is a writer, folklorist, photographer and filmmaker, and the president of Documentary Arts, the nonprofit he founded in 1985. He is a 2010 Guggenheim Fellow, has made more than 20 documentary films and has published about 30 books, among them Stoney Knows How: Life as a Tattoo Artist, Osceola: Memories of a Sharecropper's Daughter and Stompin' at the Savoy. His film Stoney Knows How, made with Les Blank, was shown at the Museum of Modern Art. With his wife, artist Kaleta Doolin, he founded the Texas African American Photography Archive in 1995. He also writes musicals, including Texas in Paris, starring Tony Award winner Lillias White. Alan's bio

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>What happens when a town known for one terrible crime starts telling its own story?

That's the heart of Quiet Voices in a Noisy World: The Struggle for Change in Jasper, Texas, the documentary Alan Govenar built from about 30 years of work in Jasper. The world knows Jasper for the 1998 murder of James Byrd Jr. Alan's film follows the Black volunteers, many in their 70s and 80s, who are reclaiming their community's history with roadside markers and memorials. He gave them a kind of veto power over the title. "They are people with quiet voices who are making a huge difference in their world," he says.

In Episode 267, Christian sits down with Alan, a writer, folklorist, photographer and filmmaker whose career spans 44 years. He started a novel at 18 and published it 52 years later. He made his first film with Les Blank, who shot it, lent him the money to finish it and premiered it at Film Forum in 1981. Along the way, Alan gave up all ownership of that film for 10 years. In 1985 he founded the nonprofit Documentary Arts, and in 1984, he says, there were no known Black photographers in any public collection in Texas. So he went looking for them in business directories.

That search led to Jasper. Alonzo Jordan was a photographer and barber there. After his death, a storm ripped the roof off his barbershop, and his widow gave his collection to Documentary Arts. Alan talks about a 1907 lynching postcard that a white woman found among her mother's things and handed to journalist Bob Ray Sanders, about shooting his last three features largely on an iPhone, and about the John Lomax recordings made in Jasper, which he calls a breakthrough for the film. "What makes them art for me is when you create this kind of tension between fact and feeling," he says.

WATCH THE FILM: Quiet Voices in a Noisy World is distributed by First Run Features. Screenings and viewing options are on the film's site, quietvoicesinanoisyworld.org.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • Why Alan believes "experience is documentary"
  • How a 50-pound Sony Portapak led to his first little video
  • What Les Blank taught him about mentorship, money and audience
  • Why he gave up ownership of his first film for 10 years
  • How Documentary Arts was built to last as a nonprofit
  • How he found Black photographers missing from Texas collections
  • Why the people of Jasper had a say in the film's title
  • Why the film has no narrator, and how he and his editor write it together
  • How he shoots features on an iPhone
  • How Library of Congress recordings shaped the film's music

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What is Quiet Voices in a Noisy World about?

Alan Govenar's documentary is about Black volunteers in Jasper, Texas, many in their 70s and 80s, who are reclaiming their community's history. It sets their work against Jasper's long history of racial violence, including the 1998 murder of James Byrd Jr. Alan says the film covers about 30 years of his work there and ends in hope, because of the resilience of the people who live there.

Who was Alonzo Jordan?

Alonzo Jordan was a Black photographer and barber in Jasper, Texas, and he's part of the subject of the film. Alan Govenar says Jordan was a church elder and a Prince Hall Mason who understood photography as a way to bolster self-esteem. After his death, a storm ripped the roof off his barbershop, and his widow gave the collection to Documentary Arts, which is now giving the digitized photos back to Jasper.

How do you fund a documentary through a nonprofit?

Alan Govenar founded Documentary Arts in 1985 as an umbrella for his work, so he could apply for grants. By design, he says, he was never its full-time executive director. He and everyone else who works for it are contract employees, and projects ebb and flow. Films made with grants through Documentary Arts are copyrighted to the nonprofit, which he hopes can be a sustainable model.

Can you shoot a documentary on an iPhone?

Alan Govenar says his last three features were shot largely on his iPhone. It works for him because it isn't intrusive and the picture quality is great, as long as you understand its limits. For Quiet Voices in a Noisy World he also had a cameraman he has worked with in France come for Juneteenth, plus a local cameraman he has worked with for many years.

DOCUVIEW DEJA VIEW PICK

  • Night and Fog (1956), directed by Alain Resnais. Alan's pick, a 32-minute film about the Nazi camps, with narration written by camp survivor Jean Cayrol. Alan says it showed him the power of the interplay between words and pictures.

See every guest pick on the DocuView Deja View page.

SPONSORED BY VIRGIL FILMS ENTERTAINMENT

Virgil Films has more than 25 years of experience in film distribution and works directly with filmmakers and streaming platforms. Learn more at virgilfilms.com.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen on your favorite app: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT

Documentary First: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Alan Govenar is a writer, folklorist, photographer and filmmaker, and the president of Documentary Arts, the nonprofit he founded in 1985. He is a 2010 Guggenheim Fellow, has made more than 20 documentary films and has published about 30 books, among them Stoney Knows How: Life as a Tattoo Artist, Osceola: Memories of a Sharecropper's Daughter and Stompin' at the Savoy. His film Stoney Knows How, made with Les Blank, was shown at the Museum of Modern Art. With his wife, artist Kaleta Doolin, he founded the Texas African American Photography Archive in 1995. He also writes musicals, including Texas in Paris, starring Tony Award winner Lillias White. Alan's bio

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>1728bd6a-efd0-4ced-abfe-75827f1a291aThu, 18 Dec 2025 02:45:00 -060001:00:28falsefull267267Susan Lacy on Billy Joel, Spielberg and American MastersSusan Lacy on Billy Joel, Spielberg and American MastersHow did a young woman who had never produced a film build PBS American Masters, and then get Billy Joel to tell the truth on camera?

Susan Lacy created American Masters, the PBS biography series, in 1986, and ran it for nearly 30 years. Then she started over. She founded Pentimento Productions and began directing for HBO: Spielberg, Jane Fonda in Five Acts, Very Ralph and, with her co-director Jessica Levin, the two-part documentary Billy Joel: And So It Goes, which opened the 2025 Tribeca Festival.

In Episode 266, Christian sits down with Susan, who tells it from the start: a college junior reporting on the 1968 Democratic convention in Chicago, where she was hit over the head and nearly thrown into a paddy wagon. A scholar who wrote an article about television and the arts and got a call from Channel 13 asking her to "put your money where your mouth is." A series nobody at PBS thought would work. "I basically willed this series into being," she says. She raised the money herself every year and launched it in the summer, when everyone else was in reruns.

Then the films. Susan did 40 hours of interviews with Steven Spielberg, and his own children told her they'd never heard the stories. With Billy Joel, she started with what they shared: both fathers came to America from Nazi Germany, and her mother was a concert pianist. When she asked him about sensitivities, Billy told her, "Tell the truth." She talks about building the film from his unpublished memoir, cutting three parts to two, and the lunches, dinners and phone calls it took to bring his first wife, Elizabeth Weber, into the film after 40 years of silence.

WATCH THE FILM: Billy Joel: And So It Goes streams on HBO Max.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • What reporting on Chicago in 1968 taught Susan about telling stories under pressure
  • How an article about television led to a job at Channel 13
  • Why nobody thought American Masters would work, and how she got it on the air
  • Why she says passion is "the single most important ingredient"
  • How the end of the DVD market changed documentary funding
  • Why many American Masters films can no longer be seen
  • How a lunch with the head of HBO led to Pentimento Productions
  • Why Spielberg asked for his interviews to go in order
  • Why she didn't interview Billy Joel chronologically
  • How she prepares so she can put her notes away

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

How did Susan Lacy start American Masters?

Susan Lacy says she came up with the idea around 1983, while working at Channel 13 in New York, and nobody at PBS thought it was a good idea. She got a first development grant from the National Endowment for the Arts, kept developing the series while running the Sundance Institute's East Coast office for Robert Redford, and went to markets and festivals in Europe to find partners. American Masters launched in the summer of 1986, when the other networks were in reruns.

How did Susan Lacy get Billy Joel to open up?

She didn't interview him in order. Susan started with what they had in common: both of their fathers came to America from Nazi Germany and went back as American soldiers, and her mother was a concert pianist, so she could talk classical music with him. After those first interviews, she says, he trusted her. She saved the hardest subjects for the end. When she asked about sensitivities, he told her, "Susan, tell the truth."

Why is Billy Joel: And So It Goes two parts instead of three?

Susan Lacy says it was first cut in three parts. Because HBO would air it a week apart, and the opening shot was designed to match the final shot, she worried viewers would forget the opening by the third week. She also believes HBO wanted two parts. They took quite a bit out, with one rule: if it wasn't directly related to the music, it didn't go in.

How many interviews did Susan Lacy do with Steven Spielberg?

About 12 or 13, each over two hours, for 40 hours in all. Spielberg asked that the interviews go chronologically so he could prepare for each one, and after every session he said it was fun and asked why they were doing it again. Susan says that at the premiere dinner, every one of his children told her they had never known any of these stories.

DOCUVIEW DEJA VIEW

This conversation has no DocuView Deja View pick. See every guest pick on the DocuView Deja View page.

SPONSORED BY VIRGIL FILMS ENTERTAINMENT

Virgil Films has more than 25 years of experience in film distribution and works directly with filmmakers and streaming platforms. Learn more at virgilfilms.com.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen on your favorite app: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT

Documentary First: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Susan Lacy created American Masters for PBS in 1986 and was its executive producer for nearly 30 years, responsible for more than 215 films. The series earned 71 Emmy nominations and 28 wins, including 10 for Outstanding Non-Fiction Series, and 12 Peabody Awards. She directed Rod Serling: Submitted for Your Approval, Leonard Bernstein: Reaching for the Note, Joni Mitchell: Woman of Heart and Mind, Judy Garland: By Myself and Inventing David Geffen for the series. In 2013 she founded Pentimento Productions, where she has directed Spielberg (2017), Jane Fonda in Five Acts (2018) and Very Ralph (2019) for HBO, executive produced The Janes, and co-directed Billy Joel: And So It Goes (2025) with Jessica Levin. Pentimento Productions | Instagram | IMDb

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>How did a young woman who had never produced a film build PBS American Masters, and then get Billy Joel to tell the truth on camera?

Susan Lacy created American Masters, the PBS biography series, in 1986, and ran it for nearly 30 years. Then she started over. She founded Pentimento Productions and began directing for HBO: Spielberg, Jane Fonda in Five Acts, Very Ralph and, with her co-director Jessica Levin, the two-part documentary Billy Joel: And So It Goes, which opened the 2025 Tribeca Festival.

In Episode 266, Christian sits down with Susan, who tells it from the start: a college junior reporting on the 1968 Democratic convention in Chicago, where she was hit over the head and nearly thrown into a paddy wagon. A scholar who wrote an article about television and the arts and got a call from Channel 13 asking her to "put your money where your mouth is." A series nobody at PBS thought would work. "I basically willed this series into being," she says. She raised the money herself every year and launched it in the summer, when everyone else was in reruns.

Then the films. Susan did 40 hours of interviews with Steven Spielberg, and his own children told her they'd never heard the stories. With Billy Joel, she started with what they shared: both fathers came to America from Nazi Germany, and her mother was a concert pianist. When she asked him about sensitivities, Billy told her, "Tell the truth." She talks about building the film from his unpublished memoir, cutting three parts to two, and the lunches, dinners and phone calls it took to bring his first wife, Elizabeth Weber, into the film after 40 years of silence.

WATCH THE FILM: Billy Joel: And So It Goes streams on HBO Max.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • What reporting on Chicago in 1968 taught Susan about telling stories under pressure
  • How an article about television led to a job at Channel 13
  • Why nobody thought American Masters would work, and how she got it on the air
  • Why she says passion is "the single most important ingredient"
  • How the end of the DVD market changed documentary funding
  • Why many American Masters films can no longer be seen
  • How a lunch with the head of HBO led to Pentimento Productions
  • Why Spielberg asked for his interviews to go in order
  • Why she didn't interview Billy Joel chronologically
  • How she prepares so she can put her notes away

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

How did Susan Lacy start American Masters?

Susan Lacy says she came up with the idea around 1983, while working at Channel 13 in New York, and nobody at PBS thought it was a good idea. She got a first development grant from the National Endowment for the Arts, kept developing the series while running the Sundance Institute's East Coast office for Robert Redford, and went to markets and festivals in Europe to find partners. American Masters launched in the summer of 1986, when the other networks were in reruns.

How did Susan Lacy get Billy Joel to open up?

She didn't interview him in order. Susan started with what they had in common: both of their fathers came to America from Nazi Germany and went back as American soldiers, and her mother was a concert pianist, so she could talk classical music with him. After those first interviews, she says, he trusted her. She saved the hardest subjects for the end. When she asked about sensitivities, he told her, "Susan, tell the truth."

Why is Billy Joel: And So It Goes two parts instead of three?

Susan Lacy says it was first cut in three parts. Because HBO would air it a week apart, and the opening shot was designed to match the final shot, she worried viewers would forget the opening by the third week. She also believes HBO wanted two parts. They took quite a bit out, with one rule: if it wasn't directly related to the music, it didn't go in.

How many interviews did Susan Lacy do with Steven Spielberg?

About 12 or 13, each over two hours, for 40 hours in all. Spielberg asked that the interviews go chronologically so he could prepare for each one, and after every session he said it was fun and asked why they were doing it again. Susan says that at the premiere dinner, every one of his children told her they had never known any of these stories.

DOCUVIEW DEJA VIEW

This conversation has no DocuView Deja View pick. See every guest pick on the DocuView Deja View page.

SPONSORED BY VIRGIL FILMS ENTERTAINMENT

Virgil Films has more than 25 years of experience in film distribution and works directly with filmmakers and streaming platforms. Learn more at virgilfilms.com.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen on your favorite app: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT

Documentary First: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Susan Lacy created American Masters for PBS in 1986 and was its executive producer for nearly 30 years, responsible for more than 215 films. The series earned 71 Emmy nominations and 28 wins, including 10 for Outstanding Non-Fiction Series, and 12 Peabody Awards. She directed Rod Serling: Submitted for Your Approval, Leonard Bernstein: Reaching for the Note, Joni Mitchell: Woman of Heart and Mind, Judy Garland: By Myself and Inventing David Geffen for the series. In 2013 she founded Pentimento Productions, where she has directed Spielberg (2017), Jane Fonda in Five Acts (2018) and Very Ralph (2019) for HBO, executive produced The Janes, and co-directed Billy Joel: And So It Goes (2025) with Jessica Levin. Pentimento Productions | Instagram | IMDb

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>9e224370-feda-480e-8dab-15bc9a8c2c05Thu, 04 Dec 2025 03:19:00 -060059:37falsefull266266The Price of Milk: Nicholas Bruckman on the Got Milk CampaignThe Price of Milk: Nicholas Bruckman on the Got Milk CampaignWhy would an oat milk company pay for a documentary that makes dairy farmers the heroes?

The Price of Milk follows the money behind the 1990s Got Milk campaign, and its heroes are small family dairy farmers like Joe and Brenda Cochran. Directed by Nicholas Bruckman and Yoni Brook, the four-part investigative series looks at the USDA checkoff programs behind generic ads like Got Milk, and argues that small dairy farmers end up paying for them. What their research found, Nicholas says, is that these programs are "basically robbing America's small farmers blind and transferring that money to big industrial farms." He is clear about what the series is not: it isn't telling anyone to stop drinking milk. "It's a political problem," he says.

In Episode 265, Christian Taylor welcomes Nicholas back for his third visit. He starts with how a film gets into festivals like Tribeca: labs and markets such as the Tribeca Creators Market, where The Price of Milk was developed in 2024, Gotham Week in New York and Film Independent's Fast Track, which can connect you with programmers, and above all, feedback. At his rough cut screenings, everyone fills out a form in silence before anyone talks, and when Nicholas sees people reach for their phones, he cuts or shortens the scene. He was 25 when he made his first film, Valley of Saints, with a crew of three, and it got into Sundance as a cold submission. Then he explains how Minted reached Netflix in about 100 countries after its PBS Independent Lens broadcast, in a deal made by his sales agents at Range Media Partners, and what Netflix's informal mandates to sales agents tend to ask for.

Then the series. Nicholas explains why The Price of Milk began as a feature and became a four-part series after rough cut screenings showed the story was too sprawling for one film; how the checkoff programs behind Got Milk, "Beef. It's What's for Dinner" and "The Incredible, Edible Egg" work; that the first Got Milk ad was directed by Michael Bay; and the series' look at Mike McCloskey's Fair Oaks Farms and the 2019 animal abuse scandal there. Then the funding. The series was financed by Oatly, and the series discloses it. Rule number one, Nicholas says, was that it could not promote plant milk or tell anyone what to drink, or it would be advertising; Oatly gave him, co-director Yoni Brook and producers Jen Maylack and James Doolittle the freedom to tell the story they wanted. He shares how other filmmakers can find brand and nonprofit partners.

WATCH THE FILM

The Price of Milk streams on Documentary+: https://docplus.com/show-details/the-price-of-milk

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • Why film festivals matter, and why they aren't everything
  • How Nicholas runs rough cut screenings with a silent feedback form
  • Why The Price of Milk became a four-part series
  • Why Oatly funded a series that doesn't tell you what to drink
  • How filmmakers can find brand and nonprofit partners

CHAPTERS

0:00 Nicholas Bruckman's Third Visit

4:31 Getting Into Tribeca

12:39 Labs and Markets Explained

18:14 Minted's Road to Netflix

27:35 Why Danes Watch Documentaries

33:06 The Price of Milk

38:49 What's a Checkoff Program?

46:34 Fair Oaks and Fairlife

52:01 Funded by Oatly

55:55 Finding Brand Partners

59:58 Secret Mall Apartment

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What is The Price of Milk about?

The Price of Milk is a four-part investigative docuseries directed by Nicholas Bruckman and Yoni Brook. It follows the money behind the 1990s Got Milk campaign, which the series ties to USDA checkoff programs, and looks at how those programs affect small family dairy farmers. The series had its world premiere at the 2025 Tribeca Festival. Oatly financed the series, and the series says so in a title card.

What is a USDA checkoff program?

As Nicholas Bruckman explains on Documentary First, a checkoff is a US government program in which every producer of a product, such as milk, beef or eggs, is required to pay into a fund for generic advertising. Bruckman lists Got Milk, "Beef. It's What's for Dinner" and "The Incredible, Edible Egg" as examples of checkoff-style advertising. The Price of Milk asks whether that advertising works at all, and whether it's worth it for small farmers.

How do you get a documentary into Tribeca?

Nicholas Bruckman says festivals matter but aren't everything. He builds a project's track record through labs and markets, such as the Tribeca Creators Market, Gotham Week and Film Independent's Fast Track, which can connect filmmakers with programmers. Above all, he holds many rough cut screenings with a written feedback form and keeps cutting until friends rate the film a five. His first film, Valley of Saints, got into Sundance as a cold submission.

How did Minted get on Netflix?

Nicholas Bruckman says Minted: The Rise (and Fall?) of the NFT was licensed by Netflix in about 100 countries in April 2025, in a deal done together with PBS after the film's Independent Lens broadcast. Range Media Partners made the deal. He believes Netflix took it because it was the definitive film about a cultural flash point, the kind of documentary that drives water cooler conversation.

DOCUVIEW DÉJÀ VU PICKS

Nicholas's pick: Secret Mall Apartment, directed by Jeremy Workman, about a group of artists who secretly built and lived in an apartment inside a Providence, Rhode Island mall for years. Workman also edited the trailer for The Price of Milk.

SPONSORED BY VIRGIL FILMS ENTERTAINMENT

https://virgilfilms.com

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/4a7f9a

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Nicholas Bruckman

Director and Founder of People's Television

Nicholas Bruckman is an Emmy-nominated director and the founder and CEO of People's Television (People's TV), a creative studio in New York City and Washington, DC. He co-directed The Price of Milk, which premiered at the 2025 Tribeca Festival, with Yoni Brook. His film Minted: The Rise (and Fall?) of the NFT premiered at Tribeca, aired on PBS Independent Lens and was released on Netflix, and his film Not Going Quietly, about health care activist Ady Barkan, won the Audience Award and a Special Jury Award at SXSW 2021.

Website

People's TV

Instagram

X

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

THE NICK BRUCKMAN SESSIONS


RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>Why would an oat milk company pay for a documentary that makes dairy farmers the heroes?

The Price of Milk follows the money behind the 1990s Got Milk campaign, and its heroes are small family dairy farmers like Joe and Brenda Cochran. Directed by Nicholas Bruckman and Yoni Brook, the four-part investigative series looks at the USDA checkoff programs behind generic ads like Got Milk, and argues that small dairy farmers end up paying for them. What their research found, Nicholas says, is that these programs are "basically robbing America's small farmers blind and transferring that money to big industrial farms." He is clear about what the series is not: it isn't telling anyone to stop drinking milk. "It's a political problem," he says.

In Episode 265, Christian Taylor welcomes Nicholas back for his third visit. He starts with how a film gets into festivals like Tribeca: labs and markets such as the Tribeca Creators Market, where The Price of Milk was developed in 2024, Gotham Week in New York and Film Independent's Fast Track, which can connect you with programmers, and above all, feedback. At his rough cut screenings, everyone fills out a form in silence before anyone talks, and when Nicholas sees people reach for their phones, he cuts or shortens the scene. He was 25 when he made his first film, Valley of Saints, with a crew of three, and it got into Sundance as a cold submission. Then he explains how Minted reached Netflix in about 100 countries after its PBS Independent Lens broadcast, in a deal made by his sales agents at Range Media Partners, and what Netflix's informal mandates to sales agents tend to ask for.

Then the series. Nicholas explains why The Price of Milk began as a feature and became a four-part series after rough cut screenings showed the story was too sprawling for one film; how the checkoff programs behind Got Milk, "Beef. It's What's for Dinner" and "The Incredible, Edible Egg" work; that the first Got Milk ad was directed by Michael Bay; and the series' look at Mike McCloskey's Fair Oaks Farms and the 2019 animal abuse scandal there. Then the funding. The series was financed by Oatly, and the series discloses it. Rule number one, Nicholas says, was that it could not promote plant milk or tell anyone what to drink, or it would be advertising; Oatly gave him, co-director Yoni Brook and producers Jen Maylack and James Doolittle the freedom to tell the story they wanted. He shares how other filmmakers can find brand and nonprofit partners.

WATCH THE FILM

The Price of Milk streams on Documentary+: https://docplus.com/show-details/the-price-of-milk

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • Why film festivals matter, and why they aren't everything
  • How Nicholas runs rough cut screenings with a silent feedback form
  • Why The Price of Milk became a four-part series
  • Why Oatly funded a series that doesn't tell you what to drink
  • How filmmakers can find brand and nonprofit partners

CHAPTERS

0:00 Nicholas Bruckman's Third Visit

4:31 Getting Into Tribeca

12:39 Labs and Markets Explained

18:14 Minted's Road to Netflix

27:35 Why Danes Watch Documentaries

33:06 The Price of Milk

38:49 What's a Checkoff Program?

46:34 Fair Oaks and Fairlife

52:01 Funded by Oatly

55:55 Finding Brand Partners

59:58 Secret Mall Apartment

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What is The Price of Milk about?

The Price of Milk is a four-part investigative docuseries directed by Nicholas Bruckman and Yoni Brook. It follows the money behind the 1990s Got Milk campaign, which the series ties to USDA checkoff programs, and looks at how those programs affect small family dairy farmers. The series had its world premiere at the 2025 Tribeca Festival. Oatly financed the series, and the series says so in a title card.

What is a USDA checkoff program?

As Nicholas Bruckman explains on Documentary First, a checkoff is a US government program in which every producer of a product, such as milk, beef or eggs, is required to pay into a fund for generic advertising. Bruckman lists Got Milk, "Beef. It's What's for Dinner" and "The Incredible, Edible Egg" as examples of checkoff-style advertising. The Price of Milk asks whether that advertising works at all, and whether it's worth it for small farmers.

How do you get a documentary into Tribeca?

Nicholas Bruckman says festivals matter but aren't everything. He builds a project's track record through labs and markets, such as the Tribeca Creators Market, Gotham Week and Film Independent's Fast Track, which can connect filmmakers with programmers. Above all, he holds many rough cut screenings with a written feedback form and keeps cutting until friends rate the film a five. His first film, Valley of Saints, got into Sundance as a cold submission.

How did Minted get on Netflix?

Nicholas Bruckman says Minted: The Rise (and Fall?) of the NFT was licensed by Netflix in about 100 countries in April 2025, in a deal done together with PBS after the film's Independent Lens broadcast. Range Media Partners made the deal. He believes Netflix took it because it was the definitive film about a cultural flash point, the kind of documentary that drives water cooler conversation.

DOCUVIEW DÉJÀ VU PICKS

Nicholas's pick: Secret Mall Apartment, directed by Jeremy Workman, about a group of artists who secretly built and lived in an apartment inside a Providence, Rhode Island mall for years. Workman also edited the trailer for The Price of Milk.

SPONSORED BY VIRGIL FILMS ENTERTAINMENT

https://virgilfilms.com

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/4a7f9a

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Nicholas Bruckman

Director and Founder of People's Television

Nicholas Bruckman is an Emmy-nominated director and the founder and CEO of People's Television (People's TV), a creative studio in New York City and Washington, DC. He co-directed The Price of Milk, which premiered at the 2025 Tribeca Festival, with Yoni Brook. His film Minted: The Rise (and Fall?) of the NFT premiered at Tribeca, aired on PBS Independent Lens and was released on Netflix, and his film Not Going Quietly, about health care activist Ady Barkan, won the Audience Award and a Special Jury Award at SXSW 2021.

Website

People's TV

Instagram

X

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

THE NICK BRUCKMAN SESSIONS


RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>304ec72a-87e8-4b4a-897e-947c5d6514deSat, 22 Nov 2025 01:55:00 -060001:03:14falsefull265265Jessica Levin on Directing Billy Joel: And So It GoesJessica Levin on Directing Billy Joel: And So It GoesHow do you get a man who hides behind his piano to tell the story of his life?

That was the work Jessica Levin and Susan Lacy took on in Billy Joel: And So It Goes, the two-part HBO documentary they directed together. Billy Joel had turned down documentaries before. He doesn't sit comfortably with praise, and he figured everything was already in his songs. Jessica says that's partly true: his music is "ripped from the journal of his life." The film follows those songs back to the people and the pain behind them.

In Episode 264, Christian sits down with Jessica, a lifelong Billy Joel fan who has worked with Susan for almost 25 years, from American Masters to their company, Pentimento Productions. Jessica tells the story of proudly telling Billy her favorite album was Street Life Serenade, only to hear it was his least favorite. And she explains who Elizabeth Weber was, Billy's first wife and manager, who spent four decades out of his life before speaking in this film.

Jessica walks through how the trust was built: starting with family history and classical music, taking "baby steps," and making a film with no editorial control by Billy or his camp. When Susan asked about sensitive areas, Billy told her, "Tell the truth." She talks about the lyric books, the home movies, a score made entirely of Billy Joel music (more than 110 of his songs), and why the story jumps back to his childhood and to his family's flight from Nazi Germany where it does.

WATCH THE FILM: Billy Joel: And So It Goes streams on HBO Max.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • Why Jessica calls Billy Joel's songs "ripped from the journal of his life"
  • Why Billy sat at the piano before every interview
  • Who Elizabeth Weber was, and why her interview mattered to fans
  • How Jessica met Susan Lacy on a Joni Mitchell film
  • Why HBO became the team's filmmaking home
  • How family history and classical music opened the door
  • Why building trust takes "building blocks"
  • What it means to make a film with no editorial control by the subject
  • How more than 110 Billy Joel songs became the score
  • Why the story isn't told in order

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

How did the filmmakers get Billy Joel to open up?

Jessica Levin says Susan Lacy, who did Billy's interviews, began with what they had in common: his family's story in Nazi Germany, and classical music, since Susan's mother was a concert pianist. Billy started every session at the piano, his "security blanket." After one early interview he told Susan, "Boy, you go deep," and she told him he'd have to go deep too if they were going to make the film they set out to make.

Did Billy Joel have editorial control over And So It Goes?

No. Jessica Levin says Billy and his camp had no editorial control. Executive producer Steve Cohen, Billy's longtime creative director, told him before he signed on that this was an independent film and he would not control the story. When Susan Lacy asked Billy about sensitive areas, he told her, "Susan, tell the truth." Jessica says that became their guiding light, along with one rule: every road leads back to the music.

Who is Elizabeth Weber?

Elizabeth Weber was Billy Joel's first wife and his manager. Jessica Levin says she was married to Billy's bandmate and friend, John Small, when she and Billy fell in love, which was heartbreaking for all three of them. Many of Billy's early songs are about their relationship. After they split, she moved to California and didn't speak to the Billy Joel organization for four decades, so her interview in the film was groundbreaking for fans.

What music is used in Billy Joel: And So It Goes?

Only Billy Joel's. Jessica Levin says the film uses more than 110 of his songs, out of a catalog she puts at about 121, along with unreleased outtakes. At Susan Lacy's suggestion, two musicians from his band made new arrangements, including an orchestral Vienna and a solo violin version of The Stranger. An audio companion album, Steve Cohen's idea, is available digitally.

DOCUVIEW DEJA VIEW PICK

  • The Andy Warhol Diaries (2022), Andrew Rossi's Netflix docuseries. Jessica's pick, because it gets beneath the surface of a complicated artist and each chapter builds on the last.

See every guest pick on the DocuView Deja View page.

SPONSORED BY VIRGIL FILMS ENTERTAINMENT

Virgil Films has more than 25 years of experience in film distribution and works directly with filmmakers and streaming platforms. Learn more at virgilfilms.com.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen on your favorite app: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT

Documentary First: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Jessica Levin is an Emmy and Peabody Award-winning producer and one of the principal producers at Pentimento Productions. With Susan Lacy she made the American Masters films Joni Mitchell: Woman of Heart and Mind, Judy Garland: By Myself, No Direction Home: Bob Dylan, Annie Leibovitz: Life Through a Lens, LENNONYC and Inventing David Geffen. At Pentimento she produced Spielberg, Jane Fonda in Five Acts, Very Ralph and The Janes for HBO Documentary Films, and she co-directed and produced Billy Joel: And So It Goes, which opened the 2025 Tribeca Festival and aired on HBO in July 2025. She is based in Los Angeles. Pentimento Productions | Instagram | IMDb

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>How do you get a man who hides behind his piano to tell the story of his life?

That was the work Jessica Levin and Susan Lacy took on in Billy Joel: And So It Goes, the two-part HBO documentary they directed together. Billy Joel had turned down documentaries before. He doesn't sit comfortably with praise, and he figured everything was already in his songs. Jessica says that's partly true: his music is "ripped from the journal of his life." The film follows those songs back to the people and the pain behind them.

In Episode 264, Christian sits down with Jessica, a lifelong Billy Joel fan who has worked with Susan for almost 25 years, from American Masters to their company, Pentimento Productions. Jessica tells the story of proudly telling Billy her favorite album was Street Life Serenade, only to hear it was his least favorite. And she explains who Elizabeth Weber was, Billy's first wife and manager, who spent four decades out of his life before speaking in this film.

Jessica walks through how the trust was built: starting with family history and classical music, taking "baby steps," and making a film with no editorial control by Billy or his camp. When Susan asked about sensitive areas, Billy told her, "Tell the truth." She talks about the lyric books, the home movies, a score made entirely of Billy Joel music (more than 110 of his songs), and why the story jumps back to his childhood and to his family's flight from Nazi Germany where it does.

WATCH THE FILM: Billy Joel: And So It Goes streams on HBO Max.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • Why Jessica calls Billy Joel's songs "ripped from the journal of his life"
  • Why Billy sat at the piano before every interview
  • Who Elizabeth Weber was, and why her interview mattered to fans
  • How Jessica met Susan Lacy on a Joni Mitchell film
  • Why HBO became the team's filmmaking home
  • How family history and classical music opened the door
  • Why building trust takes "building blocks"
  • What it means to make a film with no editorial control by the subject
  • How more than 110 Billy Joel songs became the score
  • Why the story isn't told in order

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

How did the filmmakers get Billy Joel to open up?

Jessica Levin says Susan Lacy, who did Billy's interviews, began with what they had in common: his family's story in Nazi Germany, and classical music, since Susan's mother was a concert pianist. Billy started every session at the piano, his "security blanket." After one early interview he told Susan, "Boy, you go deep," and she told him he'd have to go deep too if they were going to make the film they set out to make.

Did Billy Joel have editorial control over And So It Goes?

No. Jessica Levin says Billy and his camp had no editorial control. Executive producer Steve Cohen, Billy's longtime creative director, told him before he signed on that this was an independent film and he would not control the story. When Susan Lacy asked Billy about sensitive areas, he told her, "Susan, tell the truth." Jessica says that became their guiding light, along with one rule: every road leads back to the music.

Who is Elizabeth Weber?

Elizabeth Weber was Billy Joel's first wife and his manager. Jessica Levin says she was married to Billy's bandmate and friend, John Small, when she and Billy fell in love, which was heartbreaking for all three of them. Many of Billy's early songs are about their relationship. After they split, she moved to California and didn't speak to the Billy Joel organization for four decades, so her interview in the film was groundbreaking for fans.

What music is used in Billy Joel: And So It Goes?

Only Billy Joel's. Jessica Levin says the film uses more than 110 of his songs, out of a catalog she puts at about 121, along with unreleased outtakes. At Susan Lacy's suggestion, two musicians from his band made new arrangements, including an orchestral Vienna and a solo violin version of The Stranger. An audio companion album, Steve Cohen's idea, is available digitally.

DOCUVIEW DEJA VIEW PICK

  • The Andy Warhol Diaries (2022), Andrew Rossi's Netflix docuseries. Jessica's pick, because it gets beneath the surface of a complicated artist and each chapter builds on the last.

See every guest pick on the DocuView Deja View page.

SPONSORED BY VIRGIL FILMS ENTERTAINMENT

Virgil Films has more than 25 years of experience in film distribution and works directly with filmmakers and streaming platforms. Learn more at virgilfilms.com.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen on your favorite app: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT

Documentary First: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Jessica Levin is an Emmy and Peabody Award-winning producer and one of the principal producers at Pentimento Productions. With Susan Lacy she made the American Masters films Joni Mitchell: Woman of Heart and Mind, Judy Garland: By Myself, No Direction Home: Bob Dylan, Annie Leibovitz: Life Through a Lens, LENNONYC and Inventing David Geffen. At Pentimento she produced Spielberg, Jane Fonda in Five Acts, Very Ralph and The Janes for HBO Documentary Films, and she co-directed and produced Billy Joel: And So It Goes, which opened the 2025 Tribeca Festival and aired on HBO in July 2025. She is based in Los Angeles. Pentimento Productions | Instagram | IMDb

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>d1d1872c-151a-4b9f-a5b9-185a67f0b0caThu, 06 Nov 2025 16:40:00 -060001:09:28falsefull264264Episode 263 | Crowdfunding for Filmmakers — Lessons from the UnScarred CampaignCrowdfunding for Filmmakers — Lessons from the UnScarred CampaignIn this episode of Documentary First, return guest filmmaker Elise Jaffe, first-time director of documentary project: UnScarred, and special guest, Stacie Rae Weir, a tattoo artist and breast-cancer previvor featured in the film join us!

UnScarred explores how survivors of trauma and illness—those living with scars from breast cancer, self-harm, and other life-altering experiences—reclaim their bodies and identities through the art of tattooing. Elise and Stacie share powerful personal stories of healing and transformation, and share what it takes to fund and finish an independent documentary in today’s filmmaking landscape.

Together, they unpack the real-world lessons behind UnScarred’s ongoing Kickstarter campaign. Stacie Rae also shares her journey from mastectomy to artistry—and how she’s now offering a personal tattoo session perk as part of one of the Kickstarter rewards to help bring this story to life.

This episode is not only an inspiring look at art, trauma, and recovery—it’s a practical, candid conversation every documentary filmmaker should hear.

Links:

Kickstarter:

UNSCARRED - Documentary Film

D-Word: The D-Word: the worldwide community of documentary professionals

Bri Castellini : Bri Castellini

Stacie-Rae: Home | Stacie-Rae | Calgary, AB

No DocuView Déjà Vu

Timecodes:

00:00 — Welcome & Introduction to UnScarred

05:15 — The Origins of the Film: Inspiration During the Pandemic

10:27 — The Power of Tattoos in Healing and Identity

17:42 — Introducing Stacie Rae Weir: Artist, Survivor, and Healer

24:52 — From Mastectomy to Masterpiece: Stacie Rae’s Journey

29:51 — Tattoos as Therapy: The Collaboration Between Artist and Survivor

33:10 — The Art of Crowdfunding: Lessons for Independent Filmmakers

35:04 — Behind the Scenes of UnScarred’s Kickstarter Campaign

39:26 — The Pros and Cons of Crowdfunding for Filmmakers

44:48 — Building Community Support for Independent Films

46:33 — Transformation Through Art & What’s Next for UnScarred

Sponsor: Virgil Films http://www.virgilfilms.com/

Support us by buying merch or watching our films: https://documentaryfirst.com/

]]>In this episode of Documentary First, return guest filmmaker Elise Jaffe, first-time director of documentary project: UnScarred, and special guest, Stacie Rae Weir, a tattoo artist and breast-cancer previvor featured in the film join us!

UnScarred explores how survivors of trauma and illness—those living with scars from breast cancer, self-harm, and other life-altering experiences—reclaim their bodies and identities through the art of tattooing. Elise and Stacie share powerful personal stories of healing and transformation, and share what it takes to fund and finish an independent documentary in today’s filmmaking landscape.

Together, they unpack the real-world lessons behind UnScarred’s ongoing Kickstarter campaign. Stacie Rae also shares her journey from mastectomy to artistry—and how she’s now offering a personal tattoo session perk as part of one of the Kickstarter rewards to help bring this story to life.

This episode is not only an inspiring look at art, trauma, and recovery—it’s a practical, candid conversation every documentary filmmaker should hear.

Links:

Kickstarter:

UNSCARRED - Documentary Film

D-Word: The D-Word: the worldwide community of documentary professionals

Bri Castellini : Bri Castellini

Stacie-Rae: Home | Stacie-Rae | Calgary, AB

No DocuView Déjà Vu

Timecodes:

00:00 — Welcome & Introduction to UnScarred

05:15 — The Origins of the Film: Inspiration During the Pandemic

10:27 — The Power of Tattoos in Healing and Identity

17:42 — Introducing Stacie Rae Weir: Artist, Survivor, and Healer

24:52 — From Mastectomy to Masterpiece: Stacie Rae’s Journey

29:51 — Tattoos as Therapy: The Collaboration Between Artist and Survivor

33:10 — The Art of Crowdfunding: Lessons for Independent Filmmakers

35:04 — Behind the Scenes of UnScarred’s Kickstarter Campaign

39:26 — The Pros and Cons of Crowdfunding for Filmmakers

44:48 — Building Community Support for Independent Films

46:33 — Transformation Through Art & What’s Next for UnScarred

Sponsor: Virgil Films http://www.virgilfilms.com/

Support us by buying merch or watching our films: https://documentaryfirst.com/

]]>2f714379-5b51-4c61-8fa5-62659e378872Thu, 23 Oct 2025 01:01:00 -050049:40falsefull263263Michael Parks and the Making of Long Lonesome HighwayMichael Parks and the Making of Long Lonesome HighwayWhy would a punk rock filmmaker spend 10 years and his own money telling the story of an actor most people have never heard of?

Michael Parks starred in Then Came Bronson, sang its theme song "Long Lonesome Highway" onto the Billboard charts in 1970, and walked away from the kind of career most actors chase. Decades later, Quentin Tarantino, Robert Rodriguez and Kevin Smith brought him back in Kill Bill, From Dusk till Dawn, Red State and Tusk. Josh Roush met him on the set of Tusk, where Parks was in poor health and Josh was the young behind-the-scenes filmmaker assigned to look after him. They did not like each other. Then one day, alone in the trailer, Parks started singing an old Johnny Cash song to him.

In Episode 262, Christian Taylor sits down with Josh Roush, the director of Long Lonesome Highway: The Story of Michael Parks. Josh grew up in Middletown, Ohio, moved west at 19 to play punk rock in Orange County, and turned to filmmaking because it was a creative life he did not have to share with a band. He went from playing poker at Kevin Smith's merch nights to running cameras on Smith's podcasts, shooting his behind-the-scenes documentaries, and eventually directing his own features.

Josh talks about the friendship that grew out of that trailer: the stories about Lenny Bruce and James Dean, the margaritas, the three or four house moves he helped with. He explains why Parks wanted $25,000 to take part, how the first financing fell apart, and why the film was only made after Parks died in 2017. He talks honestly about waiting years for Quentin Tarantino, paying to re-clear all of the archival under fair use, and finishing the film for about $50,000. And he admits he hates being on camera, until a producer told him the film did not work without him in it. As Christian tells him, "It's this guy that decided to make this film because he saw something in Michael Parks."

WATCH THE FILM

Long Lonesome Highway: The Story of Michael Parks (2025) is available to rent or buy on Prime Video: https://www.primevideo.com/detail/0KDZR30QEJ8VDQNOEKHUIPGO3H

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How Josh Roush went from Orange County punk bands to directing documentaries
  • How a grumpy actor and a young filmmaker became friends on the set of Tusk
  • Why Michael Parks asked for $25,000 to be in his own documentary
  • Why the film went ahead without Quentin Tarantino
  • Why photos can be harder to clear under fair use than clips
  • Why a producer told Josh to put himself in the film
  • What Michael Parks's career says about doing things your own way
  • The five stages of an actor, in Michael Parks's own words

CHAPTERS

0:00 From Punk Rock to Filmmaking

5:41 A 10-Year Road to Long Lonesome Highway

8:36 Why Tarantino Isn't in the Film

10:36 Meeting Michael Parks on Tusk

17:06 His Son James, Kevin Smith and Poker

22:32 How Does Fair Use Work?

27:00 Making a Documentary for $50,000

29:29 Why Josh Stepped In Front of the Camera

33:42 A Man Ahead of His Time

39:28 The Five Stages of an Actor

42:12 Burden of Dreams and Werner Herzog

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Who was Michael Parks?

Michael Parks (1940 to 2017) was an American actor and singer. He starred in the 1969 series Then Came Bronson, and his recording of its theme, "Long Lonesome Highway," reached the Billboard Hot 100 in 1970. After years away from the spotlight, he returned in films by Quentin Tarantino, Robert Rodriguez and Kevin Smith, including Kill Bill, From Dusk till Dawn, Red State and Tusk.

What is Long Lonesome Highway: The Story of Michael Parks about?

Long Lonesome Highway: The Story of Michael Parks is a 2025 documentary directed by Josh Roush, who befriended Parks on the set of Kevin Smith's Tusk. It follows Parks's rise, the choices that cost him his early career, the losses in his life, and his late comeback, with Kurt Russell, Justin Long and Parks's son James among the voices in the film.

How did Long Lonesome Highway use archival footage without a big budget?

Josh Roush relied on fair use, with attorneys reviewing the cut. He bought Parks's films and recordings himself and used short clips where someone on screen is talking about what the viewer sees. When the film had to be re-cleared years later, some photos were swapped for clips, which Josh found easier to clear. He paid for only a few photos.

How much did it cost to make Long Lonesome Highway?

Josh Roush says the film was budgeted at about $40,000 and ended up at about $50,000 after a second round of legal fees. Kevin Smith helped finance it. Josh says profit was never the goal; he wanted to honor his friend's legacy and priced the DVD as low as the distributor would allow.

DOCUVIEW DÉJÀ VU PICKS

Josh's pick:

  • Burden of Dreams (1982), Les Blank's documentary about Werner Herzog making Fitzcarraldo, which Josh calls a story of refusing to give up when everything goes wrong at once: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083702/

SPONSORED BY VIRGIL FILMS ENTERTAINMENT

This episode is brought to you by Virgil Films Entertainment, distributor of Super Size Me and the Oscar-nominated Restrepo, with over 25 years of distribution experience. https://virgilfilms.com

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/4a7f9d

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Josh Roush

Director, Anti Current Multimedia

Josh Roush is a filmmaker from Middletown, Ohio, based in North Hollywood, California. He studied film at Cal State Fullerton and often writes, directs, shoots, edits and sound designs his own projects. He made behind-the-scenes documentaries for Kevin Smith's films, including Walrus Yes: The Making of Tusk, directed the punk rock thriller Wrong Reasons, and directs music videos for punk bands including Social Distortion and Bad Cop / Bad Cop.

Website

Instagram

YouTube

Facebook

Bluesky

ABOUT MICHAEL PARKS

Michael Parks was born in Corona, California, in 1940 and died in Los Angeles in 2017. He recorded several albums, played Jean Renault on Twin Peaks, and played Texas Ranger Earl McGraw in From Dusk till Dawn and Kill Bill.

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>Why would a punk rock filmmaker spend 10 years and his own money telling the story of an actor most people have never heard of?

Michael Parks starred in Then Came Bronson, sang its theme song "Long Lonesome Highway" onto the Billboard charts in 1970, and walked away from the kind of career most actors chase. Decades later, Quentin Tarantino, Robert Rodriguez and Kevin Smith brought him back in Kill Bill, From Dusk till Dawn, Red State and Tusk. Josh Roush met him on the set of Tusk, where Parks was in poor health and Josh was the young behind-the-scenes filmmaker assigned to look after him. They did not like each other. Then one day, alone in the trailer, Parks started singing an old Johnny Cash song to him.

In Episode 262, Christian Taylor sits down with Josh Roush, the director of Long Lonesome Highway: The Story of Michael Parks. Josh grew up in Middletown, Ohio, moved west at 19 to play punk rock in Orange County, and turned to filmmaking because it was a creative life he did not have to share with a band. He went from playing poker at Kevin Smith's merch nights to running cameras on Smith's podcasts, shooting his behind-the-scenes documentaries, and eventually directing his own features.

Josh talks about the friendship that grew out of that trailer: the stories about Lenny Bruce and James Dean, the margaritas, the three or four house moves he helped with. He explains why Parks wanted $25,000 to take part, how the first financing fell apart, and why the film was only made after Parks died in 2017. He talks honestly about waiting years for Quentin Tarantino, paying to re-clear all of the archival under fair use, and finishing the film for about $50,000. And he admits he hates being on camera, until a producer told him the film did not work without him in it. As Christian tells him, "It's this guy that decided to make this film because he saw something in Michael Parks."

WATCH THE FILM

Long Lonesome Highway: The Story of Michael Parks (2025) is available to rent or buy on Prime Video: https://www.primevideo.com/detail/0KDZR30QEJ8VDQNOEKHUIPGO3H

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How Josh Roush went from Orange County punk bands to directing documentaries
  • How a grumpy actor and a young filmmaker became friends on the set of Tusk
  • Why Michael Parks asked for $25,000 to be in his own documentary
  • Why the film went ahead without Quentin Tarantino
  • Why photos can be harder to clear under fair use than clips
  • Why a producer told Josh to put himself in the film
  • What Michael Parks's career says about doing things your own way
  • The five stages of an actor, in Michael Parks's own words

CHAPTERS

0:00 From Punk Rock to Filmmaking

5:41 A 10-Year Road to Long Lonesome Highway

8:36 Why Tarantino Isn't in the Film

10:36 Meeting Michael Parks on Tusk

17:06 His Son James, Kevin Smith and Poker

22:32 How Does Fair Use Work?

27:00 Making a Documentary for $50,000

29:29 Why Josh Stepped In Front of the Camera

33:42 A Man Ahead of His Time

39:28 The Five Stages of an Actor

42:12 Burden of Dreams and Werner Herzog

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Who was Michael Parks?

Michael Parks (1940 to 2017) was an American actor and singer. He starred in the 1969 series Then Came Bronson, and his recording of its theme, "Long Lonesome Highway," reached the Billboard Hot 100 in 1970. After years away from the spotlight, he returned in films by Quentin Tarantino, Robert Rodriguez and Kevin Smith, including Kill Bill, From Dusk till Dawn, Red State and Tusk.

What is Long Lonesome Highway: The Story of Michael Parks about?

Long Lonesome Highway: The Story of Michael Parks is a 2025 documentary directed by Josh Roush, who befriended Parks on the set of Kevin Smith's Tusk. It follows Parks's rise, the choices that cost him his early career, the losses in his life, and his late comeback, with Kurt Russell, Justin Long and Parks's son James among the voices in the film.

How did Long Lonesome Highway use archival footage without a big budget?

Josh Roush relied on fair use, with attorneys reviewing the cut. He bought Parks's films and recordings himself and used short clips where someone on screen is talking about what the viewer sees. When the film had to be re-cleared years later, some photos were swapped for clips, which Josh found easier to clear. He paid for only a few photos.

How much did it cost to make Long Lonesome Highway?

Josh Roush says the film was budgeted at about $40,000 and ended up at about $50,000 after a second round of legal fees. Kevin Smith helped finance it. Josh says profit was never the goal; he wanted to honor his friend's legacy and priced the DVD as low as the distributor would allow.

DOCUVIEW DÉJÀ VU PICKS

Josh's pick:

  • Burden of Dreams (1982), Les Blank's documentary about Werner Herzog making Fitzcarraldo, which Josh calls a story of refusing to give up when everything goes wrong at once: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083702/

SPONSORED BY VIRGIL FILMS ENTERTAINMENT

This episode is brought to you by Virgil Films Entertainment, distributor of Super Size Me and the Oscar-nominated Restrepo, with over 25 years of distribution experience. https://virgilfilms.com

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/4a7f9d

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Josh Roush

Director, Anti Current Multimedia

Josh Roush is a filmmaker from Middletown, Ohio, based in North Hollywood, California. He studied film at Cal State Fullerton and often writes, directs, shoots, edits and sound designs his own projects. He made behind-the-scenes documentaries for Kevin Smith's films, including Walrus Yes: The Making of Tusk, directed the punk rock thriller Wrong Reasons, and directs music videos for punk bands including Social Distortion and Bad Cop / Bad Cop.

Website

Instagram

YouTube

Facebook

Bluesky

ABOUT MICHAEL PARKS

Michael Parks was born in Corona, California, in 1940 and died in Los Angeles in 2017. He recorded several albums, played Jean Renault on Twin Peaks, and played Texas Ranger Earl McGraw in From Dusk till Dawn and Kill Bill.

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>98be797f-11cf-4a77-9b53-de8e12497c08Wed, 08 Oct 2025 20:37:00 -050045:20falsefull262262Episode 261 | Doc First Members Have Entered the ChatDoc First Members Have Entered the ChatIn this episode of Documentary First, host Christian Taylor opens up with heartfelt personal updates and reflections on the journey of documentary filmmaking. Fresh off a moving trip to Normandy, Christian is joined by team members Peyton Rabb and Todd Anderson to share stories, challenges, and unforgettable moments from the experience.

Together, they explore how veterans continue to impact younger generations, the role of gratitude in storytelling, and how filmmaking shapes not just the audience but the filmmakers themselves. From moments of humor and surprise to deeply emotional encounters with history, this episode captures the resilience, growth, and transformative power of telling true stories.

Sponsor: Virgil Films http://www.virgilfilms.com/

Support us by buying merch or watching our films: https://documentaryfirst.com/

]]>In this episode of Documentary First, host Christian Taylor opens up with heartfelt personal updates and reflections on the journey of documentary filmmaking. Fresh off a moving trip to Normandy, Christian is joined by team members Peyton Rabb and Todd Anderson to share stories, challenges, and unforgettable moments from the experience.

Together, they explore how veterans continue to impact younger generations, the role of gratitude in storytelling, and how filmmaking shapes not just the audience but the filmmakers themselves. From moments of humor and surprise to deeply emotional encounters with history, this episode captures the resilience, growth, and transformative power of telling true stories.

Sponsor: Virgil Films http://www.virgilfilms.com/

Support us by buying merch or watching our films: https://documentaryfirst.com/

]]>a68bf423-b84b-4a04-98cd-e9525b6b950eWed, 24 Sep 2025 17:29:00 -050001:02:50falsefull261261Saving Private Ryan: How to Really Listen to a WWII VeteranSaving Private Ryan: How to Really Listen to a WWII VeteranWhat happens to a World War II veteran when someone finally listens?

Ceo Bauer was wounded inside German lines near Metz on the night of November 8, 1944. In Part 2 he picks up the story from his company's outpost. He lay on the floor of a house at the front, cursing, until an officer helped him down to the cellar. There a sergeant named Burns, from Chicago, offered Ceo his own wound tablets: "You need them more than I do." As shells passed overhead, Ceo remembers telling the stretcher team, "I want to get back to the battalion aid. I want to live." He tells how a lieutenant colonel awarded him the Purple Heart in a field hospital, and how, when his belongings caught up with him after he got back to the United States in January 1945, his clothes, his camera and his invasion money were gone.

In Episode 260, the second of two parts, Christian Taylor shares the rest of her visit with Ceo, then 101, for Rob's Movie Rob Minute podcast on Saving Private Ryan. It opens on the question Part 1 left hanging: did Ceo ever forgive Tony Darin, the sergeant at the outpost who wouldn't help him that night? On one of the trips his rifle company buddies began making to Europe in 1987, he found himself in the cemetery in Luxembourg where General Patton is buried, looking at the cross of Edward Steele, Darin's runner, who caught part of Ceo's cursing that night. He forgave Steele there, he says. Darin is another matter: "I didn't really forgive him."

Then Rob asks how Ceo and Christian met. Ceo remembers Christian arriving with a crew and three hours of filming. Christian remembers it a little differently: the historian and Normandy guide Florent Plana did the interview, and she came along. Flo had studied Ceo's division, regiment and company so closely that he asked questions as if he had served with them, and by the time they left, Ceo was dancing. "Well, it's therapy," Ceo says. That day, Christian says, taught her how civilians can truly show gratitude to veterans, and it became the message of The Girl Who Wore Freedom.

Near the end, Ceo reads the letter a local woman named Elizabeth read aloud to the 95th Division veterans at the 50th anniversary of the liberation of Metz. It was the first time, he says, that they were thanked in a way they could understand. "You appeared like a fabulous sunbeam after a terrible four years long night, like a blessing from God," it reads. He tears up as he begins and has to pause. Ceo also explains why he didn't hear about Pearl Harbor for a full day and why his family has gone back to France with him every five years. Rob talks about his own service in the Israeli army and closes his show with his sign-off from Saving Private Ryan: "Earn this."

WATCH THE FILM

The Girl Who Wore Freedom, with Ceo Bauer, is streaming in the US on Amazon, Apple TV, Fandango at Home and YouTube: https://geni.us/TheGirlWhoWoreFreedom

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How Ceo Bauer came to forgive Edward Steele
  • How a sergeant from Chicago shared his wound tablets with Ceo
  • How Christian Taylor met Ceo Bauer in 2018
  • What Christian learned about listening to veterans from Florent Plana
  • Why Ceo didn't hear about Pearl Harbor for a full day
  • Why Ceo's family goes back to France every five years

CHAPTERS

0:00 Forgiving Edward Steele

5:05 Sergeant Burns's Wound Tablets

9:24 "I Want to Live"

15:48 His Purple Heart

18:28 What Was Invasion Money?

20:50 How Christian Met Ceo

27:18 Listening to a Veteran

35:48 Dear Liberators

42:06 French Gratitude, Passed Down

47:48 Pearl Harbor and the Camps

52:56 Earn This

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

How do you get a WWII veteran to tell their story?

Christian Taylor says she learned it in 2018, watching Normandy guide and historian Florent Plana interview World War II veteran Ceo Bauer. Flo came fully prepared. He knew the 95th Infantry Division, the 377th Infantry Regiment and I Company, and where they had been, so he asked questions as if he had served with them. Ceo grew happier as the interview went on. "Well, it's therapy," Ceo says of being listened to.

What was WWII invasion money?

Ceo Bauer says invasion money was the French francs American soldiers carried into France, printed in the United States rather than the usual French notes. He never spent his, because there was no place to spend it, and it was missing when his belongings reached him in the United States. On Documentary First, Rob of the Movie Rob Minute explains how he understands French shopkeepers later traded it in for regular francs.

What did the French letter to the 95th Infantry Division veterans say?

At the 50th anniversary of the liberation of Metz, in a small town near the city, a local woman named Elizabeth read a handwritten letter to the 95th Division veterans. Ceo Bauer, who reads it on Documentary First, says it was the first time they were thanked in a way they could understand. It reads, in part: "You offered us the most wonderful present in the world, liberty. But at what cost? At what price?"

How did Ceo Bauer get his Purple Heart?

Ceo Bauer says that the morning after he was wounded near Metz in November 1944, a lieutenant colonel came down the line of beds in the field hospital awarding Purple Hearts. He told Ceo he couldn't keep the medal with him, so it would go into his effects and reach him later. It did, after Ceo returned to the United States in January 1945.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/4a7f9f

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Ceo Bauer

World War II Veteran, 95th Infantry Division

Ceo Bauer was born in Carson City, Michigan, and went into the Army at 19. He served as a private first class rifleman in I Company, 377th Infantry Regiment, 95th Infantry Division, and was wounded near Metz on November 8, 1944, for which he received the Purple Heart. After the war he spent 31 years as an engineer with Michigan's highway department. France has awarded him the Legion of Honor, and in November 2024 he returned to Metz for the 80th anniversary of its liberation. He appears in The Girl Who Wore Freedom.

Ceo Bauer's Warrior Legacy profile, American Battlefield Trust

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

THE SAVING PRIVATE RYAN EPISODES


RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>What happens to a World War II veteran when someone finally listens?

Ceo Bauer was wounded inside German lines near Metz on the night of November 8, 1944. In Part 2 he picks up the story from his company's outpost. He lay on the floor of a house at the front, cursing, until an officer helped him down to the cellar. There a sergeant named Burns, from Chicago, offered Ceo his own wound tablets: "You need them more than I do." As shells passed overhead, Ceo remembers telling the stretcher team, "I want to get back to the battalion aid. I want to live." He tells how a lieutenant colonel awarded him the Purple Heart in a field hospital, and how, when his belongings caught up with him after he got back to the United States in January 1945, his clothes, his camera and his invasion money were gone.

In Episode 260, the second of two parts, Christian Taylor shares the rest of her visit with Ceo, then 101, for Rob's Movie Rob Minute podcast on Saving Private Ryan. It opens on the question Part 1 left hanging: did Ceo ever forgive Tony Darin, the sergeant at the outpost who wouldn't help him that night? On one of the trips his rifle company buddies began making to Europe in 1987, he found himself in the cemetery in Luxembourg where General Patton is buried, looking at the cross of Edward Steele, Darin's runner, who caught part of Ceo's cursing that night. He forgave Steele there, he says. Darin is another matter: "I didn't really forgive him."

Then Rob asks how Ceo and Christian met. Ceo remembers Christian arriving with a crew and three hours of filming. Christian remembers it a little differently: the historian and Normandy guide Florent Plana did the interview, and she came along. Flo had studied Ceo's division, regiment and company so closely that he asked questions as if he had served with them, and by the time they left, Ceo was dancing. "Well, it's therapy," Ceo says. That day, Christian says, taught her how civilians can truly show gratitude to veterans, and it became the message of The Girl Who Wore Freedom.

Near the end, Ceo reads the letter a local woman named Elizabeth read aloud to the 95th Division veterans at the 50th anniversary of the liberation of Metz. It was the first time, he says, that they were thanked in a way they could understand. "You appeared like a fabulous sunbeam after a terrible four years long night, like a blessing from God," it reads. He tears up as he begins and has to pause. Ceo also explains why he didn't hear about Pearl Harbor for a full day and why his family has gone back to France with him every five years. Rob talks about his own service in the Israeli army and closes his show with his sign-off from Saving Private Ryan: "Earn this."

WATCH THE FILM

The Girl Who Wore Freedom, with Ceo Bauer, is streaming in the US on Amazon, Apple TV, Fandango at Home and YouTube: https://geni.us/TheGirlWhoWoreFreedom

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How Ceo Bauer came to forgive Edward Steele
  • How a sergeant from Chicago shared his wound tablets with Ceo
  • How Christian Taylor met Ceo Bauer in 2018
  • What Christian learned about listening to veterans from Florent Plana
  • Why Ceo didn't hear about Pearl Harbor for a full day
  • Why Ceo's family goes back to France every five years

CHAPTERS

0:00 Forgiving Edward Steele

5:05 Sergeant Burns's Wound Tablets

9:24 "I Want to Live"

15:48 His Purple Heart

18:28 What Was Invasion Money?

20:50 How Christian Met Ceo

27:18 Listening to a Veteran

35:48 Dear Liberators

42:06 French Gratitude, Passed Down

47:48 Pearl Harbor and the Camps

52:56 Earn This

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

How do you get a WWII veteran to tell their story?

Christian Taylor says she learned it in 2018, watching Normandy guide and historian Florent Plana interview World War II veteran Ceo Bauer. Flo came fully prepared. He knew the 95th Infantry Division, the 377th Infantry Regiment and I Company, and where they had been, so he asked questions as if he had served with them. Ceo grew happier as the interview went on. "Well, it's therapy," Ceo says of being listened to.

What was WWII invasion money?

Ceo Bauer says invasion money was the French francs American soldiers carried into France, printed in the United States rather than the usual French notes. He never spent his, because there was no place to spend it, and it was missing when his belongings reached him in the United States. On Documentary First, Rob of the Movie Rob Minute explains how he understands French shopkeepers later traded it in for regular francs.

What did the French letter to the 95th Infantry Division veterans say?

At the 50th anniversary of the liberation of Metz, in a small town near the city, a local woman named Elizabeth read a handwritten letter to the 95th Division veterans. Ceo Bauer, who reads it on Documentary First, says it was the first time they were thanked in a way they could understand. It reads, in part: "You offered us the most wonderful present in the world, liberty. But at what cost? At what price?"

How did Ceo Bauer get his Purple Heart?

Ceo Bauer says that the morning after he was wounded near Metz in November 1944, a lieutenant colonel came down the line of beds in the field hospital awarding Purple Hearts. He told Ceo he couldn't keep the medal with him, so it would go into his effects and reach him later. It did, after Ceo returned to the United States in January 1945.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/4a7f9f

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Ceo Bauer

World War II Veteran, 95th Infantry Division

Ceo Bauer was born in Carson City, Michigan, and went into the Army at 19. He served as a private first class rifleman in I Company, 377th Infantry Regiment, 95th Infantry Division, and was wounded near Metz on November 8, 1944, for which he received the Purple Heart. After the war he spent 31 years as an engineer with Michigan's highway department. France has awarded him the Legion of Honor, and in November 2024 he returned to Metz for the 80th anniversary of its liberation. He appears in The Girl Who Wore Freedom.

Ceo Bauer's Warrior Legacy profile, American Battlefield Trust

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

THE SAVING PRIVATE RYAN EPISODES


RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>7d9c3eef-c870-426b-9dcd-b59b2526119dThu, 11 Sep 2025 03:18:00 -050056:34falsefull260260Saving Private Ryan: A 101-Year-Old WWII Veteran's StorySaving Private Ryan: A 101-Year-Old WWII Veteran's StoryWhat does a 101-year-old World War II rifleman think when he watches Saving Private Ryan?

Ceo Bauer has seen Saving Private Ryan more than once. He thinks the battle scenes are good but "pretty enhanced." In the attacks he joined under artillery fire, he says, soldiers didn't have the freedom to move around that the film shows, and he doubts they stopped for many theoretical discussions. "There's just not time for that," he says. Ceo knows combat from the inside. He grew up on a farm in rural Michigan and went into the Army at 19. He became a private first class rifleman in I Company, 377th Infantry Regiment, 95th Infantry Division, the Iron Men of Metz, and on November 8, 1944, he was wounded in a night attack near Metz, France.

In Episode 259, the first of two parts, Christian Taylor shares her visit with Ceo for the Movie Rob Minute, the podcast where Rob, who lives in Israel, goes through a film one minute at a time. Christian recorded it in Michigan when Ceo was 101, for minute 166 of Saving Private Ryan, a few months before a trip back to Normandy with him. Ceo was the first World War II veteran Christian sat down with and got to know when she began filming The Girl Who Wore Freedom, and he is in the film. Watching Florent Plana interview him, she says, is where she learned how to really listen to a veteran. Here Rob asks the questions, and Ceo shares, sometimes through tears.

Ceo landed at Omaha Beach about 100 days after D-Day. He walked single file up a path off the beach and noticed a small sign at ground level that no one else in his 200-man rifle company remembered. As he recalls it, it read: "Up this path has passed the finest of America's manhood." He still finds it difficult to repeat without tearing up. He talks about the pump handle dance he invented as a farm boy to get through an hour or two of pumping water every day, which he has since danced on every continent except Antarctica. He describes the photo of his company, in which about one man in three lost his life. He explains why so many veterans stopped talking when they came home: people didn't really want to listen. Then he tells the story of the night attack on a medieval chateau near Maizières-lès-Metz: the bazooka nobody else would carry, the flare that lit up the wire, the explosion that wounded him and killed the two men beside him, and the long crawl back to his company's outpost, alone. Part 2 picks up the story from there.

Along the way, Ceo talks about Band of Brothers, which he calls "pretty realistic," and the rifle company reunions he calls therapy. Rob, who served as a rifleman in the Israeli army, compares notes.

WATCH THE FILM

The Girl Who Wore Freedom, with Ceo Bauer, is streaming in the US on Amazon, Apple TV, Fandango at Home and YouTube: https://geni.us/TheGirlWhoWoreFreedom

CHAPTERS

0:00 Meet Ceo Bauer, 101

6:44 Is Saving Private Ryan Realistic?

10:47 100 Days After D-Day

13:06 The Pump Handle Dance

16:41 The Omaha Beach Sign

23:47 One in Three Killed

27:39 Why Didn't WWII Veterans Talk?

32:26 Reunions as Therapy

37:03 Night Attack Near Metz

44:42 Wounded Inside German Lines

50:25 Crawling Back for Help

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Is Saving Private Ryan realistic, according to a WWII veteran?

Ceo Bauer, a World War II rifleman who was 101 when he talked to the Movie Rob Minute, says the battle scenes in Saving Private Ryan are good but enhanced. In the attacks he joined under artillery fire, he says, soldiers didn't have the freedom to move that the film shows, and he doubts they stopped for many theoretical discussions: "There's just not time for that." A film, he says, has to tell a story the public will follow.

Who is Ceo Bauer?

Ceo Bauer is a World War II veteran from Michigan who served as a private first class rifleman in I Company, 377th Infantry Regiment, 95th Infantry Division, known as the Iron Men of Metz. He landed at Omaha Beach about 100 days after D-Day and was wounded near Metz, France, on November 8, 1944. He appears in Christian Taylor's documentary The Girl Who Wore Freedom.

How was Ceo Bauer wounded near Metz?

On the night of November 8, 1944, Ceo Bauer's company attacked a medieval chateau near Maizières-lès-Metz, a German strong point behind a minefield and concertina wire. Ceo says a flare fell on the wire, and an explosion wounded him and killed the two men beside him. With a badly wounded leg, he crawled back through the wire alone, then got up, staggered and fell, again and again, until he reached his company's outpost.

Why did WWII veterans stop talking about the war?

Ceo Bauer says the reasons varied from veteran to veteran, and some memories were traumatic. But he says veterans who came home also found that people didn't really want to listen. Within a couple of minutes, their eyes glazed over, or they brought up a relative of their own. So after a while, he says, many veterans stopped talking. Ceo always talked, because he thinks it is his duty.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/4a7fa0

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Ceo Bauer

World War II Veteran, 95th Infantry Division

Ceo Bauer was born in Carson City, Michigan, and went into the Army at 19. He served as a private first class rifleman in I Company, 377th Infantry Regiment, 95th Infantry Division, and was wounded near Metz on November 8, 1944, for which he received the Purple Heart. After the war he spent 31 years as an engineer with Michigan's highway department. France has awarded him the Legion of Honor, and in November 2024 he returned to Metz for the 80th anniversary of its liberation. He appears in The Girl Who Wore Freedom.

Ceo Bauer's Warrior Legacy profile, American Battlefield Trust

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

THE SAVING PRIVATE RYAN EPISODES


RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>What does a 101-year-old World War II rifleman think when he watches Saving Private Ryan?

Ceo Bauer has seen Saving Private Ryan more than once. He thinks the battle scenes are good but "pretty enhanced." In the attacks he joined under artillery fire, he says, soldiers didn't have the freedom to move around that the film shows, and he doubts they stopped for many theoretical discussions. "There's just not time for that," he says. Ceo knows combat from the inside. He grew up on a farm in rural Michigan and went into the Army at 19. He became a private first class rifleman in I Company, 377th Infantry Regiment, 95th Infantry Division, the Iron Men of Metz, and on November 8, 1944, he was wounded in a night attack near Metz, France.

In Episode 259, the first of two parts, Christian Taylor shares her visit with Ceo for the Movie Rob Minute, the podcast where Rob, who lives in Israel, goes through a film one minute at a time. Christian recorded it in Michigan when Ceo was 101, for minute 166 of Saving Private Ryan, a few months before a trip back to Normandy with him. Ceo was the first World War II veteran Christian sat down with and got to know when she began filming The Girl Who Wore Freedom, and he is in the film. Watching Florent Plana interview him, she says, is where she learned how to really listen to a veteran. Here Rob asks the questions, and Ceo shares, sometimes through tears.

Ceo landed at Omaha Beach about 100 days after D-Day. He walked single file up a path off the beach and noticed a small sign at ground level that no one else in his 200-man rifle company remembered. As he recalls it, it read: "Up this path has passed the finest of America's manhood." He still finds it difficult to repeat without tearing up. He talks about the pump handle dance he invented as a farm boy to get through an hour or two of pumping water every day, which he has since danced on every continent except Antarctica. He describes the photo of his company, in which about one man in three lost his life. He explains why so many veterans stopped talking when they came home: people didn't really want to listen. Then he tells the story of the night attack on a medieval chateau near Maizières-lès-Metz: the bazooka nobody else would carry, the flare that lit up the wire, the explosion that wounded him and killed the two men beside him, and the long crawl back to his company's outpost, alone. Part 2 picks up the story from there.

Along the way, Ceo talks about Band of Brothers, which he calls "pretty realistic," and the rifle company reunions he calls therapy. Rob, who served as a rifleman in the Israeli army, compares notes.

WATCH THE FILM

The Girl Who Wore Freedom, with Ceo Bauer, is streaming in the US on Amazon, Apple TV, Fandango at Home and YouTube: https://geni.us/TheGirlWhoWoreFreedom

CHAPTERS

0:00 Meet Ceo Bauer, 101

6:44 Is Saving Private Ryan Realistic?

10:47 100 Days After D-Day

13:06 The Pump Handle Dance

16:41 The Omaha Beach Sign

23:47 One in Three Killed

27:39 Why Didn't WWII Veterans Talk?

32:26 Reunions as Therapy

37:03 Night Attack Near Metz

44:42 Wounded Inside German Lines

50:25 Crawling Back for Help

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Is Saving Private Ryan realistic, according to a WWII veteran?

Ceo Bauer, a World War II rifleman who was 101 when he talked to the Movie Rob Minute, says the battle scenes in Saving Private Ryan are good but enhanced. In the attacks he joined under artillery fire, he says, soldiers didn't have the freedom to move that the film shows, and he doubts they stopped for many theoretical discussions: "There's just not time for that." A film, he says, has to tell a story the public will follow.

Who is Ceo Bauer?

Ceo Bauer is a World War II veteran from Michigan who served as a private first class rifleman in I Company, 377th Infantry Regiment, 95th Infantry Division, known as the Iron Men of Metz. He landed at Omaha Beach about 100 days after D-Day and was wounded near Metz, France, on November 8, 1944. He appears in Christian Taylor's documentary The Girl Who Wore Freedom.

How was Ceo Bauer wounded near Metz?

On the night of November 8, 1944, Ceo Bauer's company attacked a medieval chateau near Maizières-lès-Metz, a German strong point behind a minefield and concertina wire. Ceo says a flare fell on the wire, and an explosion wounded him and killed the two men beside him. With a badly wounded leg, he crawled back through the wire alone, then got up, staggered and fell, again and again, until he reached his company's outpost.

Why did WWII veterans stop talking about the war?

Ceo Bauer says the reasons varied from veteran to veteran, and some memories were traumatic. But he says veterans who came home also found that people didn't really want to listen. Within a couple of minutes, their eyes glazed over, or they brought up a relative of their own. So after a while, he says, many veterans stopped talking. Ceo always talked, because he thinks it is his duty.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/4a7fa0

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Ceo Bauer

World War II Veteran, 95th Infantry Division

Ceo Bauer was born in Carson City, Michigan, and went into the Army at 19. He served as a private first class rifleman in I Company, 377th Infantry Regiment, 95th Infantry Division, and was wounded near Metz on November 8, 1944, for which he received the Purple Heart. After the war he spent 31 years as an engineer with Michigan's highway department. France has awarded him the Legion of Honor, and in November 2024 he returned to Metz for the 80th anniversary of its liberation. He appears in The Girl Who Wore Freedom.

Ceo Bauer's Warrior Legacy profile, American Battlefield Trust

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

THE SAVING PRIVATE RYAN EPISODES


RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>540a7fb3-1ebe-4385-982e-27f4057cc2feWed, 27 Aug 2025 05:45:00 -050055:55falsefull259259Saving Private Ryan: Corey Johnson on Spielberg, and John Williams' Greatest ScoresSaving Private Ryan: Corey Johnson on Spielberg, and John Williams' Greatest ScoresWhat can an actor do with half a day on the Saving Private Ryan beach?

Corey Johnson's part in Saving Private Ryan took half a day to film. He played the radioman in the foxhole whom Tom Hanks grabs to report that "Dog One is not open." While the camera panned away to Hanks and Tom Sizemore, two crew members pulled him out and slid in a dummy with its face blown open, so the camera could come back to the horror. Spielberg shot only a handful of takes. Later, while Corey was posing for pictures with his dummy, Spielberg had him say a line a few more ways, then turned to an assistant director: "This guy's a good actor. Can we get him in something else?"

In Episode 258, the second of two parts, Christian Taylor shares the rest of her Movie Rob Minute crossover with Rob and her college friend Corey, on minute 131 of Saving Private Ryan. Corey tells stories from Band of Brothers, Ed Burns's overnight discovery at Sundance, and why a stage actor learns to protect himself on a film set. Christian ties the minute's shared stick of gum to what she has seen among World War II veterans and her own sons in the military: the bond of a tribe, and what happens when soldiers lose it, and she recommends Sebastian Junger's book Tribe.

The last 20 minutes are Maestro Monday: Christian and Corey each name their top five John Williams scores, from Jaws and Jurassic Park to Schindler's List and Star Wars, and talk about the power of silence. Christian admits she would take a little music out of The Girl Who Wore Freedom if she could.

SPONSORED BY ARTILLERY SPORTS

This episode is brought to you by Artillery Sports, which makes durable sports equipment and uses a portion of its profits to help care for the nation's veterans. Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your first order. https://artillerysports.com

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • What Corey Johnson's half day on the Saving Private Ryan set involved
  • How a dummy replaced Corey in the foxhole in the middle of a shot
  • What Steven Spielberg said about Corey after hearing him read a line
  • Why the soldiers sharing gum in minute 131 shows a band of brothers
  • Why soldiers leaving the military can lose their tribe
  • Which John Williams scores Christian and Corey rank highest
  • Why Christian thinks she overscored The Girl Who Wore Freedom

CHAPTERS

0:00 Part 2 and a Font of Crap

2:19 Corey's Half Day on the Beach

7:19 "This Guy's a Good Actor"

11:32 Sharing Gum and a Band of Brothers

17:07 Trauma Bonding, in Combat and on Set

19:53 Ed Burns, Tom Hardy and Protecting Yourself

24:24 The Tank Passes, and Spielberg's Genius

30:14 Maestro Monday: Harry Potter, Jaws, Superman, Jurassic Park

37:03 Catch Me If You Can and Schindler's List

43:03 The Power of Silence, and Star Wars

48:04 Where to Find Us, and Midnight Caller

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What did Corey Johnson do in Saving Private Ryan?

Corey Johnson played the radioman in the foxhole whom Tom Hanks grabs to report that "Dog One is not open." His part took half a day to film. While the camera panned away, crew members pulled him out and replaced him with a dummy whose face had been blown open, so the camera could return to it.

What are Christian Taylor's and Corey Johnson's top five John Williams scores?

Christian Taylor's top five, from five to one: Harry Potter, Jurassic Park, Catch Me If You Can, Jaws and Star Wars. Corey Johnson's: Jaws, Superman, Jurassic Park, Schindler's List and Star Wars. Both put Star Wars at number one, and Raiders of the Lost Ark also gets an honorable mention.

What is the book Tribe about?

Christian Taylor recommends Sebastian Junger's Tribe: On Homecoming and Belonging. She says it explains why soldiers who leave the military can struggle: they lose the tribe they belonged to. Junger was embedded with the soldiers in the documentary Restrepo, which, Christian says, Joe Amodei of Virgil Films distributes.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/4a7fa1

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Corey Johnson

Actor and Documentary Narrator

Corey Johnson grew up in New Orleans, studied drama at Catholic University and in London, and has built his career in London on stage, on screen and in voiceover. His film and television work includes Saving Private Ryan, The Mummy, Hellboy, Band of Brothers, September 5 and Midnight Caller, and he has narrated hundreds of documentaries, as well as the first trailer for The Girl Who Wore Freedom.

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

THE COREY JOHNSON EPISODES


RESOURCES MENTIONED

  • Saving Private Ryan (1998) on IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120815/
  • Midnight Caller, Corey's latest film, made in 2020; he believes it's streaming on Prime Video and Apple TV
  • Tribe: On Homecoming and Belonging by Sebastian Junger
  • The Movie Rob Minute podcast, with Rob

]]>What can an actor do with half a day on the Saving Private Ryan beach?

Corey Johnson's part in Saving Private Ryan took half a day to film. He played the radioman in the foxhole whom Tom Hanks grabs to report that "Dog One is not open." While the camera panned away to Hanks and Tom Sizemore, two crew members pulled him out and slid in a dummy with its face blown open, so the camera could come back to the horror. Spielberg shot only a handful of takes. Later, while Corey was posing for pictures with his dummy, Spielberg had him say a line a few more ways, then turned to an assistant director: "This guy's a good actor. Can we get him in something else?"

In Episode 258, the second of two parts, Christian Taylor shares the rest of her Movie Rob Minute crossover with Rob and her college friend Corey, on minute 131 of Saving Private Ryan. Corey tells stories from Band of Brothers, Ed Burns's overnight discovery at Sundance, and why a stage actor learns to protect himself on a film set. Christian ties the minute's shared stick of gum to what she has seen among World War II veterans and her own sons in the military: the bond of a tribe, and what happens when soldiers lose it, and she recommends Sebastian Junger's book Tribe.

The last 20 minutes are Maestro Monday: Christian and Corey each name their top five John Williams scores, from Jaws and Jurassic Park to Schindler's List and Star Wars, and talk about the power of silence. Christian admits she would take a little music out of The Girl Who Wore Freedom if she could.

SPONSORED BY ARTILLERY SPORTS

This episode is brought to you by Artillery Sports, which makes durable sports equipment and uses a portion of its profits to help care for the nation's veterans. Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your first order. https://artillerysports.com

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • What Corey Johnson's half day on the Saving Private Ryan set involved
  • How a dummy replaced Corey in the foxhole in the middle of a shot
  • What Steven Spielberg said about Corey after hearing him read a line
  • Why the soldiers sharing gum in minute 131 shows a band of brothers
  • Why soldiers leaving the military can lose their tribe
  • Which John Williams scores Christian and Corey rank highest
  • Why Christian thinks she overscored The Girl Who Wore Freedom

CHAPTERS

0:00 Part 2 and a Font of Crap

2:19 Corey's Half Day on the Beach

7:19 "This Guy's a Good Actor"

11:32 Sharing Gum and a Band of Brothers

17:07 Trauma Bonding, in Combat and on Set

19:53 Ed Burns, Tom Hardy and Protecting Yourself

24:24 The Tank Passes, and Spielberg's Genius

30:14 Maestro Monday: Harry Potter, Jaws, Superman, Jurassic Park

37:03 Catch Me If You Can and Schindler's List

43:03 The Power of Silence, and Star Wars

48:04 Where to Find Us, and Midnight Caller

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What did Corey Johnson do in Saving Private Ryan?

Corey Johnson played the radioman in the foxhole whom Tom Hanks grabs to report that "Dog One is not open." His part took half a day to film. While the camera panned away, crew members pulled him out and replaced him with a dummy whose face had been blown open, so the camera could return to it.

What are Christian Taylor's and Corey Johnson's top five John Williams scores?

Christian Taylor's top five, from five to one: Harry Potter, Jurassic Park, Catch Me If You Can, Jaws and Star Wars. Corey Johnson's: Jaws, Superman, Jurassic Park, Schindler's List and Star Wars. Both put Star Wars at number one, and Raiders of the Lost Ark also gets an honorable mention.

What is the book Tribe about?

Christian Taylor recommends Sebastian Junger's Tribe: On Homecoming and Belonging. She says it explains why soldiers who leave the military can struggle: they lose the tribe they belonged to. Junger was embedded with the soldiers in the documentary Restrepo, which, Christian says, Joe Amodei of Virgil Films distributes.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/4a7fa1

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Corey Johnson

Actor and Documentary Narrator

Corey Johnson grew up in New Orleans, studied drama at Catholic University and in London, and has built his career in London on stage, on screen and in voiceover. His film and television work includes Saving Private Ryan, The Mummy, Hellboy, Band of Brothers, September 5 and Midnight Caller, and he has narrated hundreds of documentaries, as well as the first trailer for The Girl Who Wore Freedom.

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

THE COREY JOHNSON EPISODES


RESOURCES MENTIONED

  • Saving Private Ryan (1998) on IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120815/
  • Midnight Caller, Corey's latest film, made in 2020; he believes it's streaming on Prime Video and Apple TV
  • Tribe: On Homecoming and Belonging by Sebastian Junger
  • The Movie Rob Minute podcast, with Rob

]]>88033ac2-ce04-486c-b2b2-62a994d7f6b6Wed, 13 Aug 2025 21:24:00 -050051:46falsefull258258Billy Joel: And So It Goes, From the Inside, Part 2Billy Joel: And So It Goes, From the Inside, Part 2How does a theater kid who never finished high school end up beside Billy Joel for 50 years?

Steve Cohen grew up in Canoga Park, California, cut school to sneak onto Hollywood studio lots, and learned to run sound and lights at the Starwood club on Santa Monica Boulevard. At 20 he started a lighting company with a couple of partners, cold-called every manager listed in the back of Billboard, and landed Billy Joel and Earth, Wind & Fire in the same day, with only one lighting rig between them. At his first rehearsal, the band played "The Ballad of Billy the Kid," and Steve heard a story he could light.

In Episode 257, the second of two parts, Christian Taylor sits down with Steve Cohen, Billy Joel's creative director and an executive producer of the HBO documentary Billy Joel: And So It Goes. Last time the conversation was about the film. This time it is about Steve: how he grew from lighting into directing Billy's early music videos, designing tours for other artists, and producing the documentary Last Play at Shea, and what has kept him in Billy Joel's world for half a century.

Steve gives a plain list of what lasting takes: a work ethic that matches Billy's, keeping your mouth shut, never getting too full of yourself, and knowing when to leave the room. He explains why Billy wears a jacket on stage, why every one of the 56 musicians who played in the band is listed in the film's credits, and how the music was remixed in 5.1 for the film. He and Christian share the same wish, Billy Joel's return to center stage at Madison Square Garden, and Steve sums up what the four-year project taught him: "We're put on this earth to be of service."

WATCH THE FILM

Billy Joel: And So It Goes (HBO, 2025), directed by Susan Lacy and Jessica Levin, is streaming on HBO Max: https://www.hbomax.com/show/2abc1a61-f4ac-4b0e-ae84-3cc5a3b53d03

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How a California theater kid found his talent for lighting music
  • How cold calls from a Billboard list led to Billy Joel in 1974
  • What "The Ballad of Billy the Kid" taught Steve about telling a story with light
  • What it takes to last 50 years in a creative partnership
  • Why the film's credits list all 56 musicians who played with Billy Joel
  • How Steve went from lighting to music videos to producing documentaries
  • Why Billy Joel wears a jacket on stage
  • How the music for And So It Goes was remixed in 5.1
  • How archival producers and editors shaped the film
  • Why Steve says the film made him new lifelong friends at 71

CHAPTERS

0:00 From Canoga Park to the Starwood

4:10 Cold-Calling Billy Joel's Manager

8:51 How Do You Last 50 Years in a Band?

13:15 From Music Videos to Last Play at Shea

18:20 Hoping for One More Night at the Garden

25:03 Why He Wears a Jacket on Stage

28:59 Editors, Sound and a 5.1 Remix

33:15 We're Put on This Earth to Be of Service

37:27 The Archival Team and the Mean Brothers

44:32 The Kid Stays in the Picture and More

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

How did Steve Cohen start working with Billy Joel?

In 1974, Steve Cohen and a couple of partners started a lighting company and cold-called every manager listed at the back of Billboard magazine. Steve landed Billy Joel the same day a partner landed Earth, Wind & Fire, with one lighting system between them. He rented gear, went to rehearsals, and has worked with Billy Joel ever since.

How do you last 50 years in a creative partnership?

Steve Cohen credits a work ethic that matches Billy Joel's, knowing when to keep quiet, never getting too full of himself, and knowing when to leave the room. He also kept a career of his own, designing for other artists, which he says Billy enjoyed hearing about. His role grew over time, and Billy encouraged it.

Why does Billy Joel wear a jacket on stage?

According to Steve Cohen, Billy Joel started wearing a suit coat and tie on stage because the audience had paid money to see him, and he wanted to show them a little respect. It also gave him a simple style that never had to chase trends. Steve says it reflects Billy's belief that you show up and do the work.

How was the music remixed for Billy Joel: And So It Goes?

Steve Cohen says the team brought in recording engineer Bradshaw Leigh, who worked on Billy Joel's records with producer Phil Ramone, to remix the songs in 5.1 surround sound for the film, rather than faking a surround mix. Pieces of Billy's music were also reworked as score for the section on his family history.

DOCUVIEW DÉJÀ VU PICKS

Steve's picks:


SPONSORED BY ARTILLERY SPORTS

This episode is brought to you by Artillery Sports, which makes durable sports equipment and uses a portion of its profits to help care for the nation's veterans. Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your first order. https://artillerysports.com

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/4a7fa2

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Steve Cohen

Creative Director for Billy Joel; Executive Producer, Billy Joel: And So It Goes

Steve Cohen grew up in Canoga Park, California, and started a lighting company at 20. Billy Joel was his first major client, in 1974, and Steve has been his lighting designer and creative director ever since. He has designed tours and television for many other artists, directed Billy Joel's early music videos, produced the documentary Last Play at Shea, and was the executive producer and lighting designer of the special on Billy Joel's 100th show at Madison Square Garden.

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>How does a theater kid who never finished high school end up beside Billy Joel for 50 years?

Steve Cohen grew up in Canoga Park, California, cut school to sneak onto Hollywood studio lots, and learned to run sound and lights at the Starwood club on Santa Monica Boulevard. At 20 he started a lighting company with a couple of partners, cold-called every manager listed in the back of Billboard, and landed Billy Joel and Earth, Wind & Fire in the same day, with only one lighting rig between them. At his first rehearsal, the band played "The Ballad of Billy the Kid," and Steve heard a story he could light.

In Episode 257, the second of two parts, Christian Taylor sits down with Steve Cohen, Billy Joel's creative director and an executive producer of the HBO documentary Billy Joel: And So It Goes. Last time the conversation was about the film. This time it is about Steve: how he grew from lighting into directing Billy's early music videos, designing tours for other artists, and producing the documentary Last Play at Shea, and what has kept him in Billy Joel's world for half a century.

Steve gives a plain list of what lasting takes: a work ethic that matches Billy's, keeping your mouth shut, never getting too full of yourself, and knowing when to leave the room. He explains why Billy wears a jacket on stage, why every one of the 56 musicians who played in the band is listed in the film's credits, and how the music was remixed in 5.1 for the film. He and Christian share the same wish, Billy Joel's return to center stage at Madison Square Garden, and Steve sums up what the four-year project taught him: "We're put on this earth to be of service."

WATCH THE FILM

Billy Joel: And So It Goes (HBO, 2025), directed by Susan Lacy and Jessica Levin, is streaming on HBO Max: https://www.hbomax.com/show/2abc1a61-f4ac-4b0e-ae84-3cc5a3b53d03

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How a California theater kid found his talent for lighting music
  • How cold calls from a Billboard list led to Billy Joel in 1974
  • What "The Ballad of Billy the Kid" taught Steve about telling a story with light
  • What it takes to last 50 years in a creative partnership
  • Why the film's credits list all 56 musicians who played with Billy Joel
  • How Steve went from lighting to music videos to producing documentaries
  • Why Billy Joel wears a jacket on stage
  • How the music for And So It Goes was remixed in 5.1
  • How archival producers and editors shaped the film
  • Why Steve says the film made him new lifelong friends at 71

CHAPTERS

0:00 From Canoga Park to the Starwood

4:10 Cold-Calling Billy Joel's Manager

8:51 How Do You Last 50 Years in a Band?

13:15 From Music Videos to Last Play at Shea

18:20 Hoping for One More Night at the Garden

25:03 Why He Wears a Jacket on Stage

28:59 Editors, Sound and a 5.1 Remix

33:15 We're Put on This Earth to Be of Service

37:27 The Archival Team and the Mean Brothers

44:32 The Kid Stays in the Picture and More

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

How did Steve Cohen start working with Billy Joel?

In 1974, Steve Cohen and a couple of partners started a lighting company and cold-called every manager listed at the back of Billboard magazine. Steve landed Billy Joel the same day a partner landed Earth, Wind & Fire, with one lighting system between them. He rented gear, went to rehearsals, and has worked with Billy Joel ever since.

How do you last 50 years in a creative partnership?

Steve Cohen credits a work ethic that matches Billy Joel's, knowing when to keep quiet, never getting too full of himself, and knowing when to leave the room. He also kept a career of his own, designing for other artists, which he says Billy enjoyed hearing about. His role grew over time, and Billy encouraged it.

Why does Billy Joel wear a jacket on stage?

According to Steve Cohen, Billy Joel started wearing a suit coat and tie on stage because the audience had paid money to see him, and he wanted to show them a little respect. It also gave him a simple style that never had to chase trends. Steve says it reflects Billy's belief that you show up and do the work.

How was the music remixed for Billy Joel: And So It Goes?

Steve Cohen says the team brought in recording engineer Bradshaw Leigh, who worked on Billy Joel's records with producer Phil Ramone, to remix the songs in 5.1 surround sound for the film, rather than faking a surround mix. Pieces of Billy's music were also reworked as score for the section on his family history.

DOCUVIEW DÉJÀ VU PICKS

Steve's picks:


SPONSORED BY ARTILLERY SPORTS

This episode is brought to you by Artillery Sports, which makes durable sports equipment and uses a portion of its profits to help care for the nation's veterans. Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your first order. https://artillerysports.com

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/4a7fa2

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Steve Cohen

Creative Director for Billy Joel; Executive Producer, Billy Joel: And So It Goes

Steve Cohen grew up in Canoga Park, California, and started a lighting company at 20. Billy Joel was his first major client, in 1974, and Steve has been his lighting designer and creative director ever since. He has designed tours and television for many other artists, directed Billy Joel's early music videos, produced the documentary Last Play at Shea, and was the executive producer and lighting designer of the special on Billy Joel's 100th show at Madison Square Garden.

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>a4f1513c-6147-4590-9abb-1208ff9de1baThu, 24 Jul 2025 01:17:00 -050048:22falsefull257257Billy Joel: And So It Goes, From the Inside, Part 1Billy Joel: And So It Goes, From the Inside, Part 1How do you make an honest film about Billy Joel when Billy Joel doesn't want to talk about himself anymore?

Steve Cohen walked into a rehearsal in 1974 as a 20-year-old lighting guy who didn't much care for "Piano Man." After his first show with the band, Billy Joel poured him a Black Russian by a Holiday Inn pool in Milwaukee and told him the audience had reacted in places it never had before. "So here," Billy said, "welcome to the band." Fifty years later, Steve is Billy's creative director and an executive producer of the HBO documentary Billy Joel: And So It Goes.

In Episode 256, the first of two parts, Christian Taylor sits down with Steve Cohen. Christian, a Billy Joel fan since her teens on Long Island, admits at the top that this is the interview of a lifetime for her. Steve tells the story of how the film came together: a three-and-a-half-hour first conversation with Susan Lacy, the founder of PBS's American Masters, who turned out to be his neighbor on the East End of Long Island; a pitch from Todd Milliner and Sean Hayes; and Tom Hanks and Gary Goetzman, who signed on as long as Susan Lacy would direct. When Steve told Billy he would have no editorial control, Billy answered, "What have I got to hide?"

Steve explains what made the film work. Co-director Jessica Levin brought a superfan's knowledge of every corner of the catalog. Susan Lacy insisted on interviewing Billy at a piano, his security blanket, and most of the interviews moved to Steve's own homes, where Billy could relax. Steve talks about persuading Billy's first wife, Elizabeth, to sit down for the film, about the songs that grew out of their relationship, and about the line from Billy, quoted in the film, that Christian and Steve agree explains the whole catalog: if there's a skeleton key to his work, it's his relationships with other people. As Billy once told Steve, "It's not for you to call yourself an artist. Let someone else call you an artist."

WATCH THE FILM

Billy Joel: And So It Goes (HBO, 2025), directed by Susan Lacy and Jessica Levin, is streaming on HBO Max: https://www.hbomax.com/show/2abc1a61-f4ac-4b0e-ae84-3cc5a3b53d03

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How a 20-year-old lighting designer became part of Billy Joel's band in 1974
  • Why Billy Joel refused to tell his own story for years
  • How Susan Lacy came to direct And So It Goes
  • How Tom Hanks, Gary Goetzman, Sean Hayes and Todd Milliner got the film made at HBO
  • Why Billy Joel agreed to a documentary with no editorial control
  • How two co-directors, one classical music lover and one superfan, shaped the film
  • Why Billy Joel was interviewed at a piano, and why the location changed
  • How Steve persuaded Elizabeth to take part
  • Why relationships are the key to Billy Joel's songwriting
  • How Susan Lacy builds scenes from stacks of printed transcripts

CHAPTERS

0:00 An Interview of a Lifetime

2:07 How Steve Cohen Met Billy Joel in 1974

5:10 The 100th Show and a Five-Hour Film

11:48 "Let Someone Else Call You an Artist"

13:50 How Susan Lacy Came to Direct

18:00 "What Have I Got to Hide?"

22:21 Classical Roots and the Holocaust Story

25:05 Elizabeth Weber and the Love Songs

30:33 Relationships Are the Skeleton Key

33:53 Interviewing at the Piano

38:15 Stacks of Transcripts and Nonlinear Editing

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What is Billy Joel: And So It Goes?

Billy Joel: And So It Goes is a 2025 two-part HBO documentary directed by Susan Lacy and Jessica Levin, running about five hours. Its executive producers include Tom Hanks, Gary Goetzman, Sean Hayes, Todd Milliner and Steve Cohen. Billy Joel sat for interviews but had no editorial control, and the film ties his life story back to his songs.

Who is Steve Cohen?

Steve Cohen is Billy Joel's longtime creative director and lighting designer. He started a lighting company at 20, cold-called managers, and began working with Billy Joel in 1974. He has since designed tours for many other artists, produced the documentary Last Play at Shea, and served as an executive producer of Billy Joel: And So It Goes.

How did Susan Lacy get Billy Joel to open up?

According to Steve Cohen, Susan Lacy insisted on interviewing Billy Joel at a piano, which Steve calls his security blanket. After a first interview at Billy's house full of distractions, most sessions moved to Steve's homes, where Billy felt at ease. Each interview went deeper, and Billy told her she got him to go places he doesn't normally go.

Did Billy Joel have editorial control over And So It Goes?

No. Steve Cohen says he told Billy Joel that saying yes meant no editorial involvement and trusting the filmmakers to tell the story. Billy's answer was, "What have I got to hide?" Steve's role was to open doors: arranging interviews, opening the archives, and persuading people like Billy's first wife, Elizabeth, to take part.

SPONSORED BY ARTILLERY SPORTS

This episode is brought to you by Artillery Sports, which makes durable sports equipment and uses a portion of its profits to help care for the nation's veterans. Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your first order. https://artillerysports.com

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/4a7fa3

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Steve Cohen

Creative Director for Billy Joel; Executive Producer, Billy Joel: And So It Goes

Steve Cohen grew up in Canoga Park, California, and started a lighting company at 20. Billy Joel was his first major client, in 1974, and Steve has been his lighting designer and creative director ever since. He has designed tours and television for many other artists, directed Billy Joel's early music videos, produced the documentary Last Play at Shea, and was the executive producer and lighting designer of the special on Billy Joel's 100th show at Madison Square Garden.

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>How do you make an honest film about Billy Joel when Billy Joel doesn't want to talk about himself anymore?

Steve Cohen walked into a rehearsal in 1974 as a 20-year-old lighting guy who didn't much care for "Piano Man." After his first show with the band, Billy Joel poured him a Black Russian by a Holiday Inn pool in Milwaukee and told him the audience had reacted in places it never had before. "So here," Billy said, "welcome to the band." Fifty years later, Steve is Billy's creative director and an executive producer of the HBO documentary Billy Joel: And So It Goes.

In Episode 256, the first of two parts, Christian Taylor sits down with Steve Cohen. Christian, a Billy Joel fan since her teens on Long Island, admits at the top that this is the interview of a lifetime for her. Steve tells the story of how the film came together: a three-and-a-half-hour first conversation with Susan Lacy, the founder of PBS's American Masters, who turned out to be his neighbor on the East End of Long Island; a pitch from Todd Milliner and Sean Hayes; and Tom Hanks and Gary Goetzman, who signed on as long as Susan Lacy would direct. When Steve told Billy he would have no editorial control, Billy answered, "What have I got to hide?"

Steve explains what made the film work. Co-director Jessica Levin brought a superfan's knowledge of every corner of the catalog. Susan Lacy insisted on interviewing Billy at a piano, his security blanket, and most of the interviews moved to Steve's own homes, where Billy could relax. Steve talks about persuading Billy's first wife, Elizabeth, to sit down for the film, about the songs that grew out of their relationship, and about the line from Billy, quoted in the film, that Christian and Steve agree explains the whole catalog: if there's a skeleton key to his work, it's his relationships with other people. As Billy once told Steve, "It's not for you to call yourself an artist. Let someone else call you an artist."

WATCH THE FILM

Billy Joel: And So It Goes (HBO, 2025), directed by Susan Lacy and Jessica Levin, is streaming on HBO Max: https://www.hbomax.com/show/2abc1a61-f4ac-4b0e-ae84-3cc5a3b53d03

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How a 20-year-old lighting designer became part of Billy Joel's band in 1974
  • Why Billy Joel refused to tell his own story for years
  • How Susan Lacy came to direct And So It Goes
  • How Tom Hanks, Gary Goetzman, Sean Hayes and Todd Milliner got the film made at HBO
  • Why Billy Joel agreed to a documentary with no editorial control
  • How two co-directors, one classical music lover and one superfan, shaped the film
  • Why Billy Joel was interviewed at a piano, and why the location changed
  • How Steve persuaded Elizabeth to take part
  • Why relationships are the key to Billy Joel's songwriting
  • How Susan Lacy builds scenes from stacks of printed transcripts

CHAPTERS

0:00 An Interview of a Lifetime

2:07 How Steve Cohen Met Billy Joel in 1974

5:10 The 100th Show and a Five-Hour Film

11:48 "Let Someone Else Call You an Artist"

13:50 How Susan Lacy Came to Direct

18:00 "What Have I Got to Hide?"

22:21 Classical Roots and the Holocaust Story

25:05 Elizabeth Weber and the Love Songs

30:33 Relationships Are the Skeleton Key

33:53 Interviewing at the Piano

38:15 Stacks of Transcripts and Nonlinear Editing

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What is Billy Joel: And So It Goes?

Billy Joel: And So It Goes is a 2025 two-part HBO documentary directed by Susan Lacy and Jessica Levin, running about five hours. Its executive producers include Tom Hanks, Gary Goetzman, Sean Hayes, Todd Milliner and Steve Cohen. Billy Joel sat for interviews but had no editorial control, and the film ties his life story back to his songs.

Who is Steve Cohen?

Steve Cohen is Billy Joel's longtime creative director and lighting designer. He started a lighting company at 20, cold-called managers, and began working with Billy Joel in 1974. He has since designed tours for many other artists, produced the documentary Last Play at Shea, and served as an executive producer of Billy Joel: And So It Goes.

How did Susan Lacy get Billy Joel to open up?

According to Steve Cohen, Susan Lacy insisted on interviewing Billy Joel at a piano, which Steve calls his security blanket. After a first interview at Billy's house full of distractions, most sessions moved to Steve's homes, where Billy felt at ease. Each interview went deeper, and Billy told her she got him to go places he doesn't normally go.

Did Billy Joel have editorial control over And So It Goes?

No. Steve Cohen says he told Billy Joel that saying yes meant no editorial involvement and trusting the filmmakers to tell the story. Billy's answer was, "What have I got to hide?" Steve's role was to open doors: arranging interviews, opening the archives, and persuading people like Billy's first wife, Elizabeth, to take part.

SPONSORED BY ARTILLERY SPORTS

This episode is brought to you by Artillery Sports, which makes durable sports equipment and uses a portion of its profits to help care for the nation's veterans. Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your first order. https://artillerysports.com

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/4a7fa3

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Steve Cohen

Creative Director for Billy Joel; Executive Producer, Billy Joel: And So It Goes

Steve Cohen grew up in Canoga Park, California, and started a lighting company at 20. Billy Joel was his first major client, in 1974, and Steve has been his lighting designer and creative director ever since. He has designed tours and television for many other artists, directed Billy Joel's early music videos, produced the documentary Last Play at Shea, and was the executive producer and lighting designer of the special on Billy Joel's 100th show at Madison Square Garden.

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>d1b8072c-2217-49af-9aa5-a95d6ee71c2dWed, 16 Jul 2025 16:11:00 -050044:12falsefull256256Episode 255 | Creating Unique Soundscapes -- Scoring for Documentary Films w/ Panu AaltioCreating Unique Soundscapes -- Scoring for Documentary Films w/ Panu AaltioIn this episode of Documentary First, host Christian Taylor sits down with Finnish film composer Panu Aaltio to dive into the fascinating world of film scoring.

From his early days as a cello player to becoming a successful composer for films and documentaries, Panu shares his unique journey and the challenges and joys of crafting music for the screen. The conversation explores the intricate relationship between music and film, the influence of video game music, and how directors' styles shape a composer’s approach to scoring. Panu discusses the creative process behind composing scores that evoke emotional responses, the importance of collaboration with directors, and the role of music as a character in a film. He also offers valuable insights on his experiences working on Netflix originals, the significance of documentaries in his career, and advice for aspiring composers looking to break into the industry.

Watch the hit show "Little Siberia" on Netflix!

Discover Panu Aaltio's work: https://www.panuaaltio.com/

Key Takeaways:

  • Panu Aaltio’s musical journey began with the cello at age six and evolved into a passion for film scoring.
  • Film scoring started as a hobby for Panu before it became his professional career.
  • Panu’s education in music technology and film scoring helped shape his approach to composing.
  • The emotional impact of music in film is crucial, and understanding the narrative is key to crafting effective scores.
  • Collaboration with directors is essential in understanding their vision and creating a score that complements the film.
  • Panu shares the importance of experimentation in music composition to create unique soundscapes.
  • Documentaries have played a significant role in Panu’s career, offering insight into the unique scoring techniques needed for this genre.
  • Music can act as a character in a film, adding depth and enhancing storytelling.
  • Panu reflects on his experiences with Netflix and shares advice for aspiring composers looking to make their mark in the film industry.

Sound Bites:

  • "I started playing the cello at six."
  • "I got really, really into film music."
  • "Music carries the emotion of the scene."
  • "You cannot micromanage everything."
  • "What do you want to achieve?"
  • "You need to be very careful with the music."

Chapters:

00:00 Introduction to Film Scoring

05:35 Panu's Musical Journey

12:16 From Hobby to Profession

20:13 Navigating Directorial Styles

25:30 The Language of Music in Film

26:24 Understanding Emotional Impact through Score

28:48 Creating Unique Soundscapes for Film

30:41 The Role of Music as a Character

32:13 Experimentation in Composition

35:34 The Importance of Early Composition

41:12 Navigating the Netflix Experience

42:26 The Significance of Documentaries in Career

43:09 DocuView Déjà Vu

44:18 Advice for Aspiring Composers

45:17 Influential Scores and Future Projects

]]>In this episode of Documentary First, host Christian Taylor sits down with Finnish film composer Panu Aaltio to dive into the fascinating world of film scoring.

From his early days as a cello player to becoming a successful composer for films and documentaries, Panu shares his unique journey and the challenges and joys of crafting music for the screen. The conversation explores the intricate relationship between music and film, the influence of video game music, and how directors' styles shape a composer’s approach to scoring. Panu discusses the creative process behind composing scores that evoke emotional responses, the importance of collaboration with directors, and the role of music as a character in a film. He also offers valuable insights on his experiences working on Netflix originals, the significance of documentaries in his career, and advice for aspiring composers looking to break into the industry.

Watch the hit show "Little Siberia" on Netflix!

Discover Panu Aaltio's work: https://www.panuaaltio.com/

Key Takeaways:

  • Panu Aaltio’s musical journey began with the cello at age six and evolved into a passion for film scoring.
  • Film scoring started as a hobby for Panu before it became his professional career.
  • Panu’s education in music technology and film scoring helped shape his approach to composing.
  • The emotional impact of music in film is crucial, and understanding the narrative is key to crafting effective scores.
  • Collaboration with directors is essential in understanding their vision and creating a score that complements the film.
  • Panu shares the importance of experimentation in music composition to create unique soundscapes.
  • Documentaries have played a significant role in Panu’s career, offering insight into the unique scoring techniques needed for this genre.
  • Music can act as a character in a film, adding depth and enhancing storytelling.
  • Panu reflects on his experiences with Netflix and shares advice for aspiring composers looking to make their mark in the film industry.

Sound Bites:

  • "I started playing the cello at six."
  • "I got really, really into film music."
  • "Music carries the emotion of the scene."
  • "You cannot micromanage everything."
  • "What do you want to achieve?"
  • "You need to be very careful with the music."

Chapters:

00:00 Introduction to Film Scoring

05:35 Panu's Musical Journey

12:16 From Hobby to Profession

20:13 Navigating Directorial Styles

25:30 The Language of Music in Film

26:24 Understanding Emotional Impact through Score

28:48 Creating Unique Soundscapes for Film

30:41 The Role of Music as a Character

32:13 Experimentation in Composition

35:34 The Importance of Early Composition

41:12 Navigating the Netflix Experience

42:26 The Significance of Documentaries in Career

43:09 DocuView Déjà Vu

44:18 Advice for Aspiring Composers

45:17 Influential Scores and Future Projects

]]>7d0dcc97-935c-45c0-af89-d2b3067bf93fWed, 02 Jul 2025 12:00:00 -050047:09falsefull255255Saving Private Ryan: Actor Corey Johnson on Filming the D-Day LandingSaving Private Ryan: Actor Corey Johnson on Filming the D-Day LandingWhat was it like to film the D-Day landing in Saving Private Ryan, as a young actor with a small part?

Corey Johnson was booked for two weeks on Saving Private Ryan. He spent most of the first week on location in Ireland waiting to be called, eating Irish steak every night with the other actors at their bed and breakfast. When the cameras finally rolled on the landing, he watched Irish soldiers, amputee extras and machine-gun squibs turn a beach into chaos, and saw Steven Spielberg quietly ask Tom Sizemore for one more take after the one where his helmet flew off, the take Corey believes Spielberg already knew he would use.

In Episode 254, the first of two parts, Christian Taylor shares her guest appearance on the Movie Rob Minute, the podcast where Rob, an American film lover living in Israel, goes through a movie one minute at a time. For minute 131 of Saving Private Ryan, Christian brought her college friend Corey, who played a radioman in the film. The three trace how they found each other, from Christian's distributor Joe Amodei of Virgil Films back to It's a Wonderful Life and The Great Escape, then talk about the minute itself: Mike moving rocks in a ditch as the tanks close in, and Captain Miller looking up for help.

Christian talks about what nine years of working with World War II veterans on The Girl Who Wore Freedom have taught her: why so many veterans never talked about the war, why the French, Belgians and Dutch are still so grateful, and why every veteran should share their story with their family.

SPONSORED BY ARTILLERY SPORTS

This episode is brought to you by Artillery Sports, which makes durable sports equipment and uses a portion of its profits to help care for the nation's veterans. Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your first order. https://artillerysports.com

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How the Movie Rob Minute reviews a film one minute at a time
  • What minute 131 of Saving Private Ryan shows, and why it works
  • Why so many World War II veterans didn't talk about the war
  • Why the people of France, Belgium and the Netherlands are still grateful 80 years later
  • How Corey Johnson got his part in Saving Private Ryan
  • What filming the D-Day landing on location in Ireland was like
  • Why Steven Spielberg shot one more take for security

CHAPTERS

0:00 Why We Joined the Movie Rob Minute

4:25 Minute 131 and How We All Met

11:06 It's a Wonderful Life and a Literate Audience

14:43 Moving Rocks and a Deus Ex Machina

17:20 Why Veterans Didn't Talk

23:02 The Girl Who Wore Freedom and French Gratitude

26:17 Memorial Day and Sharing Your Story

29:33 How Corey Landed a Part in Saving Private Ryan

33:31 On Location in Ireland

38:39 Waiting to Shoot, Then Filming the Landing

43:07 Spielberg Shoots One More for Security

47:10 Seeing the Opening in 1998

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What is the Movie Rob Minute?

The Movie Rob Minute is a podcast hosted by Rob, an American film lover who lives in Israel, that goes through a film one minute at a time with guests. Christian Taylor and actor Corey Johnson joined him for minute 131 of Saving Private Ryan, and Documentary First is airing those conversations.

Who did Corey Johnson play in Saving Private Ryan?

Corey Johnson played a radioman in Saving Private Ryan. He was cast in London for a small part and booked for two weeks on location in Ireland, where the D-Day landing was filmed. He says he got the part through luck and perseverance.

Why didn't many World War II veterans talk about the war?

Christian Taylor says veterans have given her two reasons. When they tried to talk, people's eyes glazed over, and the memories were so traumatic that repeating them was painful. She encourages veterans to share their stories with their families, because civilians often don't know what to ask but want to know.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/4a7faf

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Corey Johnson

Actor and Documentary Narrator

Corey Johnson grew up in New Orleans, studied drama at Catholic University and in London, and has built his career in London on stage, on screen and in voiceover. His film and television work includes Saving Private Ryan, The Mummy, Hellboy, Band of Brothers and September 5, and he has narrated hundreds of documentaries, as well as the first trailer for The Girl Who Wore Freedom.

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

THE COREY JOHNSON EPISODES


RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>What was it like to film the D-Day landing in Saving Private Ryan, as a young actor with a small part?

Corey Johnson was booked for two weeks on Saving Private Ryan. He spent most of the first week on location in Ireland waiting to be called, eating Irish steak every night with the other actors at their bed and breakfast. When the cameras finally rolled on the landing, he watched Irish soldiers, amputee extras and machine-gun squibs turn a beach into chaos, and saw Steven Spielberg quietly ask Tom Sizemore for one more take after the one where his helmet flew off, the take Corey believes Spielberg already knew he would use.

In Episode 254, the first of two parts, Christian Taylor shares her guest appearance on the Movie Rob Minute, the podcast where Rob, an American film lover living in Israel, goes through a movie one minute at a time. For minute 131 of Saving Private Ryan, Christian brought her college friend Corey, who played a radioman in the film. The three trace how they found each other, from Christian's distributor Joe Amodei of Virgil Films back to It's a Wonderful Life and The Great Escape, then talk about the minute itself: Mike moving rocks in a ditch as the tanks close in, and Captain Miller looking up for help.

Christian talks about what nine years of working with World War II veterans on The Girl Who Wore Freedom have taught her: why so many veterans never talked about the war, why the French, Belgians and Dutch are still so grateful, and why every veteran should share their story with their family.

SPONSORED BY ARTILLERY SPORTS

This episode is brought to you by Artillery Sports, which makes durable sports equipment and uses a portion of its profits to help care for the nation's veterans. Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your first order. https://artillerysports.com

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How the Movie Rob Minute reviews a film one minute at a time
  • What minute 131 of Saving Private Ryan shows, and why it works
  • Why so many World War II veterans didn't talk about the war
  • Why the people of France, Belgium and the Netherlands are still grateful 80 years later
  • How Corey Johnson got his part in Saving Private Ryan
  • What filming the D-Day landing on location in Ireland was like
  • Why Steven Spielberg shot one more take for security

CHAPTERS

0:00 Why We Joined the Movie Rob Minute

4:25 Minute 131 and How We All Met

11:06 It's a Wonderful Life and a Literate Audience

14:43 Moving Rocks and a Deus Ex Machina

17:20 Why Veterans Didn't Talk

23:02 The Girl Who Wore Freedom and French Gratitude

26:17 Memorial Day and Sharing Your Story

29:33 How Corey Landed a Part in Saving Private Ryan

33:31 On Location in Ireland

38:39 Waiting to Shoot, Then Filming the Landing

43:07 Spielberg Shoots One More for Security

47:10 Seeing the Opening in 1998

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What is the Movie Rob Minute?

The Movie Rob Minute is a podcast hosted by Rob, an American film lover who lives in Israel, that goes through a film one minute at a time with guests. Christian Taylor and actor Corey Johnson joined him for minute 131 of Saving Private Ryan, and Documentary First is airing those conversations.

Who did Corey Johnson play in Saving Private Ryan?

Corey Johnson played a radioman in Saving Private Ryan. He was cast in London for a small part and booked for two weeks on location in Ireland, where the D-Day landing was filmed. He says he got the part through luck and perseverance.

Why didn't many World War II veterans talk about the war?

Christian Taylor says veterans have given her two reasons. When they tried to talk, people's eyes glazed over, and the memories were so traumatic that repeating them was painful. She encourages veterans to share their stories with their families, because civilians often don't know what to ask but want to know.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/4a7faf

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Corey Johnson

Actor and Documentary Narrator

Corey Johnson grew up in New Orleans, studied drama at Catholic University and in London, and has built his career in London on stage, on screen and in voiceover. His film and television work includes Saving Private Ryan, The Mummy, Hellboy, Band of Brothers and September 5, and he has narrated hundreds of documentaries, as well as the first trailer for The Girl Who Wore Freedom.

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

THE COREY JOHNSON EPISODES


RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>a094d7eb-9d2c-483b-aba2-0b5a0d095102Wed, 18 Jun 2025 12:00:00 -050051:04falsefull254254Episode 253 | Revitalizing Communities: The Heirloom Project with Josh Nowell & Jim RasberryRevitalizing Communities: The Heirloom Project with Josh Nowell & Jim RasberryIn this episode of Documentary First, host Christian Taylor and co-host Hunter Taylor are joined by Josh Nowell and Jim Rasberry, the dynamic duo behind The Heirloom Hotel & Cooking School in Laurel, Mississippi.

They discuss the transformative power of storytelling, being on HGTV's Hometown, and community revitalization. As serial entrepreneurs, Josh and Jim share their journey of creating The Heirloom, a unique project blending hospitality and digital storytelling to preserve legacies and foster community connections. The conversation delves into the evolution of media consumption, focusing on the impact of streaming platforms, social media, and the shift in how content creators engage with their audiences. They highlight the significance of building authentic relationships and digital communities, a concept that is central to both their business and storytelling philosophy. We learn how their work is reshaping the hospitality industry and how the Heirloom network is using storytelling to bridge the past and future.

Link: https://theheirloom.us/

No DocuView Déjà Vu

Sponsor: http://ArtillerySports.com Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your order today!

]]>In this episode of Documentary First, host Christian Taylor and co-host Hunter Taylor are joined by Josh Nowell and Jim Rasberry, the dynamic duo behind The Heirloom Hotel & Cooking School in Laurel, Mississippi.

They discuss the transformative power of storytelling, being on HGTV's Hometown, and community revitalization. As serial entrepreneurs, Josh and Jim share their journey of creating The Heirloom, a unique project blending hospitality and digital storytelling to preserve legacies and foster community connections. The conversation delves into the evolution of media consumption, focusing on the impact of streaming platforms, social media, and the shift in how content creators engage with their audiences. They highlight the significance of building authentic relationships and digital communities, a concept that is central to both their business and storytelling philosophy. We learn how their work is reshaping the hospitality industry and how the Heirloom network is using storytelling to bridge the past and future.

Link: https://theheirloom.us/

No DocuView Déjà Vu

Sponsor: http://ArtillerySports.com Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your order today!

]]>71096ad6-a2e6-4af8-8054-5145cbb83f2eThu, 05 Jun 2025 01:43:00 -050054:45falsefull253253Actor Corey Johnson on Anthony Hopkins and The MummyActor Corey Johnson on Anthony Hopkins and The MummyWhat can an actor learn from watching Anthony Hopkins, Sam Mendes and Brendan Fraser at work?

Corey Johnson's first film was John Schlesinger's The Innocent, as Anthony Hopkins's right-hand man. He watched Schlesinger struggle to get a menacing line out of Hopkins, then stop to reload the camera, ask Hopkins about Laurence Olivier, let him do his impressions for the crew, and roll while he was still relaxed. The line came out exactly right. Corey says you don't always realize what you've learned on a set.

In Episode 252, the second of two parts, Christian Taylor and her friend from Catholic University pick up where Part 1 left off. Corey talks about The Mummy, his biggest film role, and why a remark about Brendan Fraser always finding the camera left him feeling that screen acting wasn't what he did: he was a theater actor. He describes rehearsing just two scenes for a week each on a new Alejandro González Iñárritu film, shot partly on real film, and watching Sam Mendes direct a West End play like someone playing three-dimensional chess.

Then the two friends disagree. Christian believes acting school should teach the business of acting; Corey says every out-of-work actor already runs a business, and the craft is what matters. Christian listens back to her own work; Corey never watches his on-screen performances, because, as he puts it, "that way madness lies." He ends on what he believes acting really is: reacting, staying open and letting yourself be vulnerable.

SPONSORED BY ARTILLERY SPORTS

This episode is brought to you by Artillery Sports, which makes durable sports equipment and uses a portion of its profits to help care for the nation's veterans. Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your first order. https://artillerysports.com

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How John Schlesinger relaxed Anthony Hopkins into the take he needed
  • What Corey learned on The Mummy about acting for the camera
  • How a film rehearsal differs from a stage rehearsal
  • What it was like to watch Sam Mendes direct
  • Whether actors should be taught the business of acting
  • Why Corey never watches his own performances
  • Why Corey believes acting is reacting

CHAPTERS

0:00 Part 2, and His First Film, The Innocent

4:54 The Trick That Unlocked Anthony Hopkins

7:05 Trust on a Film Set

13:42 The Mummy and Finding the Camera

16:57 Rehearsing a Film for a Week

19:32 Shooting Out of Order

21:54 Watching Sam Mendes Direct

27:05 Generous Actors and a Great Cinematographer

31:57 Is Acting a Business?

34:48 Learning the Camera on the Fly

38:05 Why Corey Doesn't Watch Himself

44:48 Acting Is Reacting

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What was Corey Johnson's first film?

Corey Johnson's first film was The Innocent, directed by John Schlesinger and shot in 1992, with Anthony Hopkins, Campbell Scott and Isabella Rossellini. Corey played Hopkins's right-hand man and later helped him with his American accent during dialogue replacement.

How did John Schlesinger get the performance he wanted from Anthony Hopkins?

Corey Johnson says Schlesinger wanted a line to sound threatening without looking threatening. While the camera was reloaded, he asked Hopkins about Laurence Olivier, and Hopkins entertained the crew with his impressions. Schlesinger then rolled while Hopkins was still relaxed, and the line landed.

Why doesn't Corey Johnson watch his own performances?

Corey Johnson says watching himself would make him judge the result instead of the character, from his hair to how his suit sat. He believes changing how you work to fix the end result is "a snake eating its own tail." Christian Taylor, who listens back to her own work, admits he has a point.

DOCUVIEW DÉJÀ VU PICKS

Corey's picks: Strangest Things, a documentary series he narrated, and the documentary he narrated for the 30th anniversary of Tiananmen Square.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/4a7fb1

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Corey Johnson

Actor and Documentary Narrator

Corey Johnson grew up in New Orleans, studied drama at Catholic University and in London, and has built his career in London on stage, on screen and in voiceover. His film and television work includes The Innocent, Saving Private Ryan, The Mummy, Hellboy, Band of Brothers and September 5, and he has narrated hundreds of documentaries.

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

THE COREY JOHNSON EPISODES


RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>What can an actor learn from watching Anthony Hopkins, Sam Mendes and Brendan Fraser at work?

Corey Johnson's first film was John Schlesinger's The Innocent, as Anthony Hopkins's right-hand man. He watched Schlesinger struggle to get a menacing line out of Hopkins, then stop to reload the camera, ask Hopkins about Laurence Olivier, let him do his impressions for the crew, and roll while he was still relaxed. The line came out exactly right. Corey says you don't always realize what you've learned on a set.

In Episode 252, the second of two parts, Christian Taylor and her friend from Catholic University pick up where Part 1 left off. Corey talks about The Mummy, his biggest film role, and why a remark about Brendan Fraser always finding the camera left him feeling that screen acting wasn't what he did: he was a theater actor. He describes rehearsing just two scenes for a week each on a new Alejandro González Iñárritu film, shot partly on real film, and watching Sam Mendes direct a West End play like someone playing three-dimensional chess.

Then the two friends disagree. Christian believes acting school should teach the business of acting; Corey says every out-of-work actor already runs a business, and the craft is what matters. Christian listens back to her own work; Corey never watches his on-screen performances, because, as he puts it, "that way madness lies." He ends on what he believes acting really is: reacting, staying open and letting yourself be vulnerable.

SPONSORED BY ARTILLERY SPORTS

This episode is brought to you by Artillery Sports, which makes durable sports equipment and uses a portion of its profits to help care for the nation's veterans. Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your first order. https://artillerysports.com

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How John Schlesinger relaxed Anthony Hopkins into the take he needed
  • What Corey learned on The Mummy about acting for the camera
  • How a film rehearsal differs from a stage rehearsal
  • What it was like to watch Sam Mendes direct
  • Whether actors should be taught the business of acting
  • Why Corey never watches his own performances
  • Why Corey believes acting is reacting

CHAPTERS

0:00 Part 2, and His First Film, The Innocent

4:54 The Trick That Unlocked Anthony Hopkins

7:05 Trust on a Film Set

13:42 The Mummy and Finding the Camera

16:57 Rehearsing a Film for a Week

19:32 Shooting Out of Order

21:54 Watching Sam Mendes Direct

27:05 Generous Actors and a Great Cinematographer

31:57 Is Acting a Business?

34:48 Learning the Camera on the Fly

38:05 Why Corey Doesn't Watch Himself

44:48 Acting Is Reacting

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What was Corey Johnson's first film?

Corey Johnson's first film was The Innocent, directed by John Schlesinger and shot in 1992, with Anthony Hopkins, Campbell Scott and Isabella Rossellini. Corey played Hopkins's right-hand man and later helped him with his American accent during dialogue replacement.

How did John Schlesinger get the performance he wanted from Anthony Hopkins?

Corey Johnson says Schlesinger wanted a line to sound threatening without looking threatening. While the camera was reloaded, he asked Hopkins about Laurence Olivier, and Hopkins entertained the crew with his impressions. Schlesinger then rolled while Hopkins was still relaxed, and the line landed.

Why doesn't Corey Johnson watch his own performances?

Corey Johnson says watching himself would make him judge the result instead of the character, from his hair to how his suit sat. He believes changing how you work to fix the end result is "a snake eating its own tail." Christian Taylor, who listens back to her own work, admits he has a point.

DOCUVIEW DÉJÀ VU PICKS

Corey's picks: Strangest Things, a documentary series he narrated, and the documentary he narrated for the 30th anniversary of Tiananmen Square.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/4a7fb1

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Corey Johnson

Actor and Documentary Narrator

Corey Johnson grew up in New Orleans, studied drama at Catholic University and in London, and has built his career in London on stage, on screen and in voiceover. His film and television work includes The Innocent, Saving Private Ryan, The Mummy, Hellboy, Band of Brothers and September 5, and he has narrated hundreds of documentaries.

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

THE COREY JOHNSON EPISODES


RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>3a1c68ff-f577-4592-bf5c-0ce2b7c8b5c8Thu, 22 May 2025 01:43:00 -050052:35falsefull252252Actor Corey Johnson: The Voice Behind Hundreds of DocumentariesActor Corey Johnson: The Voice Behind Hundreds of DocumentariesHow does a theater kid from New Orleans become the voice behind hundreds of documentaries?

Corey Johnson decided to become an actor at 16, the spring he broke his knee playing football and watched the school musical from the band. He went from Catholic University's drama department to London, and from London to Saving Private Ryan, The Mummy, Hellboy, Band of Brothers and September 5. Along the way he narrated hundreds of documentaries for television, so many that he once listened to one in a hotel room for 10 minutes before he realized the voice was his own.

In Episode 251, the first of two parts, Christian Taylor sits down with her friend of 40 years. They met in 1985, when Corey was a senior in Catholic University's drama department, dancing reluctantly in the spring musical, and Christian was a freshman working on it as a stagehand. Years later she found him again by chance, watching Band of Brothers on a trip to Las Vegas, and when she started The Girl Who Wore Freedom, he was the first person she called. His is the voice on the film's first trailer.

Corey talks about the documentary narration that is the meat of his career, the three-hour Hurricane Sandy special, World War II From Space, and a film for the 30th anniversary of Tiananmen Square whose producers couldn't find footage of the square from before the 1980s. Corey's father had shot a documentary there in 1972, but with weeks to go before release, it was too late to use it. He talks about his father, who delivered a daily editorial on New Orleans television for almost 40 years, and about the year in London when stage work paid him about $15,000 and a voiceover agent changed everything: one soda commercial, recorded in Paris in the middle of tech rehearsals, later brought a check for more than 4,600 pounds, at a time when he was choosing between groceries and computer software.

SPONSORED BY ARTILLERY SPORTS

This episode is brought to you by Artillery Sports, which makes durable sports equipment and uses a portion of its profits to help care for the nation's veterans. Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your first order. https://artillerysports.com

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How Corey Johnson and Christian Taylor met at Catholic University in 1985
  • How Christian found Corey again through Band of Brothers
  • What it's like to narrate hundreds of documentaries, and why Corey doesn't watch them
  • How Corey's father's 1972 footage of China surprised a Tiananmen Square documentary team
  • Why Corey decided to become an actor at 16
  • How voiceover work kept an American actor working in London
  • What a high school director taught Christian about trusting the director

CHAPTERS

0:00 A Friend Since 1985

2:44 The Movie Rob Minute and Saving Private Ryan

5:33 The Voice He Didn't Recognize

8:05 Catholic University Theater in the 1980s

15:33 From New Orleans to London, and Band of Brothers

17:46 Narrating Hundreds of Documentaries

21:27 His Father's Editorials on New Orleans TV

24:33 Why He Became an Actor at 16

31:58 Christian's Start: West Side Story and a Floppy Hat

35:40 What a Character Uncovers in You

37:43 How Voiceover Kept Him in London

43:03 DocuView Déjà Vu and a Golf Podcast

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Who is Corey Johnson?

Corey Johnson is an American actor from New Orleans who has worked in London for most of his career. He trained at Catholic University in Washington, D.C., and in London, and has appeared in Saving Private Ryan, The Mummy, Hellboy, Band of Brothers and September 5. He has also narrated hundreds of documentaries for television.

How did Corey Johnson get into documentary narration?

Corey Johnson says that a few years into his London career, a year of stage work paid him about $15,000. He sent a tape to a voiceover agent, who signed him because the agency had just lost its American voice. His first year of voiceovers paid more than twice what he had earned the year before, and narration became the core of his career.

How do Corey Johnson and Christian Taylor know each other?

They met in 1985 at Catholic University, where Corey was a senior in the drama department and Christian a freshman working as a stagehand on the spring musical he was in. They lost touch until Christian recognized his voice in Band of Brothers. Corey narrated the first trailer for her documentary, The Girl Who Wore Freedom.

DOCUVIEW DÉJÀ VU PICKS

  • Christian's pick: September 5 (2024), the drama about the 1972 Munich Olympics broadcast, in which Corey appears
  • Corey's picks: Strangest Things, a documentary series he narrated, and his series on Jesus and the Bible

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/4a7fb2

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Corey Johnson

Actor and Documentary Narrator

Corey Johnson grew up in New Orleans, studied drama at Catholic University and has built his career in London on stage, on screen and in voiceover. His film and television work includes Saving Private Ryan, The Mummy, Hellboy, Band of Brothers and September 5, and he has narrated hundreds of documentaries.

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

THE COREY JOHNSON EPISODES


RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>How does a theater kid from New Orleans become the voice behind hundreds of documentaries?

Corey Johnson decided to become an actor at 16, the spring he broke his knee playing football and watched the school musical from the band. He went from Catholic University's drama department to London, and from London to Saving Private Ryan, The Mummy, Hellboy, Band of Brothers and September 5. Along the way he narrated hundreds of documentaries for television, so many that he once listened to one in a hotel room for 10 minutes before he realized the voice was his own.

In Episode 251, the first of two parts, Christian Taylor sits down with her friend of 40 years. They met in 1985, when Corey was a senior in Catholic University's drama department, dancing reluctantly in the spring musical, and Christian was a freshman working on it as a stagehand. Years later she found him again by chance, watching Band of Brothers on a trip to Las Vegas, and when she started The Girl Who Wore Freedom, he was the first person she called. His is the voice on the film's first trailer.

Corey talks about the documentary narration that is the meat of his career, the three-hour Hurricane Sandy special, World War II From Space, and a film for the 30th anniversary of Tiananmen Square whose producers couldn't find footage of the square from before the 1980s. Corey's father had shot a documentary there in 1972, but with weeks to go before release, it was too late to use it. He talks about his father, who delivered a daily editorial on New Orleans television for almost 40 years, and about the year in London when stage work paid him about $15,000 and a voiceover agent changed everything: one soda commercial, recorded in Paris in the middle of tech rehearsals, later brought a check for more than 4,600 pounds, at a time when he was choosing between groceries and computer software.

SPONSORED BY ARTILLERY SPORTS

This episode is brought to you by Artillery Sports, which makes durable sports equipment and uses a portion of its profits to help care for the nation's veterans. Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your first order. https://artillerysports.com

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How Corey Johnson and Christian Taylor met at Catholic University in 1985
  • How Christian found Corey again through Band of Brothers
  • What it's like to narrate hundreds of documentaries, and why Corey doesn't watch them
  • How Corey's father's 1972 footage of China surprised a Tiananmen Square documentary team
  • Why Corey decided to become an actor at 16
  • How voiceover work kept an American actor working in London
  • What a high school director taught Christian about trusting the director

CHAPTERS

0:00 A Friend Since 1985

2:44 The Movie Rob Minute and Saving Private Ryan

5:33 The Voice He Didn't Recognize

8:05 Catholic University Theater in the 1980s

15:33 From New Orleans to London, and Band of Brothers

17:46 Narrating Hundreds of Documentaries

21:27 His Father's Editorials on New Orleans TV

24:33 Why He Became an Actor at 16

31:58 Christian's Start: West Side Story and a Floppy Hat

35:40 What a Character Uncovers in You

37:43 How Voiceover Kept Him in London

43:03 DocuView Déjà Vu and a Golf Podcast

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Who is Corey Johnson?

Corey Johnson is an American actor from New Orleans who has worked in London for most of his career. He trained at Catholic University in Washington, D.C., and in London, and has appeared in Saving Private Ryan, The Mummy, Hellboy, Band of Brothers and September 5. He has also narrated hundreds of documentaries for television.

How did Corey Johnson get into documentary narration?

Corey Johnson says that a few years into his London career, a year of stage work paid him about $15,000. He sent a tape to a voiceover agent, who signed him because the agency had just lost its American voice. His first year of voiceovers paid more than twice what he had earned the year before, and narration became the core of his career.

How do Corey Johnson and Christian Taylor know each other?

They met in 1985 at Catholic University, where Corey was a senior in the drama department and Christian a freshman working as a stagehand on the spring musical he was in. They lost touch until Christian recognized his voice in Band of Brothers. Corey narrated the first trailer for her documentary, The Girl Who Wore Freedom.

DOCUVIEW DÉJÀ VU PICKS

  • Christian's pick: September 5 (2024), the drama about the 1972 Munich Olympics broadcast, in which Corey appears
  • Corey's picks: Strangest Things, a documentary series he narrated, and his series on Jesus and the Bible

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/4a7fb2

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Corey Johnson

Actor and Documentary Narrator

Corey Johnson grew up in New Orleans, studied drama at Catholic University and has built his career in London on stage, on screen and in voiceover. His film and television work includes Saving Private Ryan, The Mummy, Hellboy, Band of Brothers and September 5, and he has narrated hundreds of documentaries.

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

THE COREY JOHNSON EPISODES


RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>e41de0b7-6a72-4fdd-9db6-5d9e563cf04eWed, 07 May 2025 21:57:00 -050048:59falsefull251251Episode 250 | Blake Lively’s Hollywood Harassment Showdown – with Entertainment Lawyer Anne Easton Blake Lively’s Hollywood Harassment Showdown – with Entertainment Lawyer Anne EastonWhat happens when a Hollywood star stands up to sexual harassment on set?

In this episode, entertainment lawyer Anne Easton joins us to unravel the legal and ethical firestorm sparked by Blake Lively’s recent case. Blake Lively made headlines by accusing her It Ends With Us co-star and director, Justin Baldoni, of sexual harassment — and then faced an alleged smear campaign in retaliation. Anne brings an insider perspective from the world of entertainment law, helping us make sense of this high-profile Hollywood showdown in a conversational, insightful way.

We tackle tough questions around celebrity privacy and image rights — how much control can an actor really have over their image and personal information once a story goes public? We also examine how the Me Too movement has changed the film industry, and what it takes to create a truly safe workplace environment in filmmaking today.

Anne breaks down the concept of retaliation in plain language, exploring whether smear campaigns like the one Lively alleges can be considered illegal retaliation under entertainment law. She highlights what legal protections exist for those who speak up against misconduct, and where gaps still need to be filled. From the role of intimacy coordinators on set to new laws designed to protect whistleblowers, we cover it all in a clear, down-to-earth way.

Beyond this case, Anne’s perspective — shaped by years of advising both major studios and independent filmmakers — adds nuance to every insight. She even shares a peek at her own upcoming creative nonfiction book project, revealing her passion for storytelling beyond the courtroom. It’s a candid, eye-opening discussion that’s equal parts Hollywood drama and practical advice on building safer, more respectful film sets. Tune in to learn how Hollywood is changing and what it means for anyone who wants a safer, more equitable filmmaking world.

No DocuView Déjà Vu

Timecodes

00:00 Introduction to the Blake Lively Case

03:12 Understanding the Legal Context

06:04 The Background of the Case

09:10 Claims of Sexual Harassment

12:04 Retaliation and Public Perception

14:52 Legal Implications for Filmmakers

17:59 Creating a Safe Set Environment

21:04 Navigating Power Dynamics on Set

23:55 Preventative Measures in Filmmaking

26:50 The Aftermath and Public Image Rights

32:39 Legal Standards for Public Figures

34:12 Image Rights and Public Figures

36:32 The Importance of Image Rights

40:42 Lessons from Blake Lively's Case

42:27 Current Status of Legal Proceedings

45:26 The Importance of Behavior in Legal Matters

46:13 Understanding Your Rights in Media

48:08 Anne's New Documentary Project

Sponsor: http://ArtillerySports.com Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your order today!

]]>What happens when a Hollywood star stands up to sexual harassment on set?

In this episode, entertainment lawyer Anne Easton joins us to unravel the legal and ethical firestorm sparked by Blake Lively’s recent case. Blake Lively made headlines by accusing her It Ends With Us co-star and director, Justin Baldoni, of sexual harassment — and then faced an alleged smear campaign in retaliation. Anne brings an insider perspective from the world of entertainment law, helping us make sense of this high-profile Hollywood showdown in a conversational, insightful way.

We tackle tough questions around celebrity privacy and image rights — how much control can an actor really have over their image and personal information once a story goes public? We also examine how the Me Too movement has changed the film industry, and what it takes to create a truly safe workplace environment in filmmaking today.

Anne breaks down the concept of retaliation in plain language, exploring whether smear campaigns like the one Lively alleges can be considered illegal retaliation under entertainment law. She highlights what legal protections exist for those who speak up against misconduct, and where gaps still need to be filled. From the role of intimacy coordinators on set to new laws designed to protect whistleblowers, we cover it all in a clear, down-to-earth way.

Beyond this case, Anne’s perspective — shaped by years of advising both major studios and independent filmmakers — adds nuance to every insight. She even shares a peek at her own upcoming creative nonfiction book project, revealing her passion for storytelling beyond the courtroom. It’s a candid, eye-opening discussion that’s equal parts Hollywood drama and practical advice on building safer, more respectful film sets. Tune in to learn how Hollywood is changing and what it means for anyone who wants a safer, more equitable filmmaking world.

No DocuView Déjà Vu

Timecodes

00:00 Introduction to the Blake Lively Case

03:12 Understanding the Legal Context

06:04 The Background of the Case

09:10 Claims of Sexual Harassment

12:04 Retaliation and Public Perception

14:52 Legal Implications for Filmmakers

17:59 Creating a Safe Set Environment

21:04 Navigating Power Dynamics on Set

23:55 Preventative Measures in Filmmaking

26:50 The Aftermath and Public Image Rights

32:39 Legal Standards for Public Figures

34:12 Image Rights and Public Figures

36:32 The Importance of Image Rights

40:42 Lessons from Blake Lively's Case

42:27 Current Status of Legal Proceedings

45:26 The Importance of Behavior in Legal Matters

46:13 Understanding Your Rights in Media

48:08 Anne's New Documentary Project

Sponsor: http://ArtillerySports.com Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your order today!

]]>362bbd57-6a96-4606-a770-2079b7174446Thu, 24 Apr 2025 01:01:00 -050059:07falsefull250250Episode 249 | How Greg Fitzpatrick Became a Stuntman, Part 1How Greg Fitzpatrick Became a Stuntman, Part 1Get ready to ride shotgun through Hollywood’s wild side!

In this electrifying episode of Documentary First, host Christian Taylor sits down with Greg Fitzpatrick—a stuntman who’s doubled for Ben Stiller and even put his skills to the test for Robert Downey Jr. in Iron Man. Greg's no-nonsense journey from ditching law school to becoming an award-winning daredevil in Tinseltown is full of raw, behind-the-scenes stories that every aspiring actor, stunt performer, or director will want to hear.

In this candid, high-octane conversation, Greg dives into the gritty realities of stunt work—the epic risks, hilarious mishaps, and relentless hustle that shape a career in film. He reveals how networking, preparation, and a dash of bold risk-taking have propelled him from theater stages to the big screen. Whether you’re dreaming of your own Hollywood breakthrough or just curious about what really goes on behind the camera, this interview packs plenty of inspiration, practical advice, and jaw-dropping tales from the stunt world.

Tune in for a deep dive into the adrenaline-fueled world of stunts where every fall is a step toward success!

DocuView Déjà Vu

Mountain Queen: The Summits of Lhakpa Sherpa, 2023, 95 mins, Watch on Netflix, IMDB Link:

Mountain Queen: The Summits of Lhakpa Sherpa (2023) ⭐ 7.6 | Documentary

Timecodes

00:00 Introduction to Documentary Filmmaking and Guest Introduction

02:59 The Life of a Stuntman: Behind the Scenes

06:05 The Journey to Acting: From Law School to Hollywood

09:02 Theater and Acting: Building a Foundation

12:02 The Struggles of an Actor: Finding a Footing in LA

15:06 Networking and Community in the Film Industry

17:59 The Breakthrough: Becoming a Stunt Performer

20:51 Transitioning from Stunts to Acting

23:55 The Hustle: Balancing Jobs and Passion

27:09 Preparing for the Role: Doubling for Ben Stiller

27:43 The Journey Begins: From Awareness to Opportunity

30:09 Seizing the Moment: The Importance of Preparation

32:52 The Humbling Experience of Stunt Work

35:44 The Duality of Stunt Work: Gift and Challenge

39:09 Behind the Scenes: The Reality of Stunt Work

42:34 Directing: Bringing Vision to Life

46:55 Documentary Insights: Learning from Experience

48:25 DocuView Déjà Vu

Sponsor: http://ArtillerySports.com Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your order today!

]]>Get ready to ride shotgun through Hollywood’s wild side!

In this electrifying episode of Documentary First, host Christian Taylor sits down with Greg Fitzpatrick—a stuntman who’s doubled for Ben Stiller and even put his skills to the test for Robert Downey Jr. in Iron Man. Greg's no-nonsense journey from ditching law school to becoming an award-winning daredevil in Tinseltown is full of raw, behind-the-scenes stories that every aspiring actor, stunt performer, or director will want to hear.

In this candid, high-octane conversation, Greg dives into the gritty realities of stunt work—the epic risks, hilarious mishaps, and relentless hustle that shape a career in film. He reveals how networking, preparation, and a dash of bold risk-taking have propelled him from theater stages to the big screen. Whether you’re dreaming of your own Hollywood breakthrough or just curious about what really goes on behind the camera, this interview packs plenty of inspiration, practical advice, and jaw-dropping tales from the stunt world.

Tune in for a deep dive into the adrenaline-fueled world of stunts where every fall is a step toward success!

DocuView Déjà Vu

Mountain Queen: The Summits of Lhakpa Sherpa, 2023, 95 mins, Watch on Netflix, IMDB Link:

Mountain Queen: The Summits of Lhakpa Sherpa (2023) ⭐ 7.6 | Documentary

Timecodes

00:00 Introduction to Documentary Filmmaking and Guest Introduction

02:59 The Life of a Stuntman: Behind the Scenes

06:05 The Journey to Acting: From Law School to Hollywood

09:02 Theater and Acting: Building a Foundation

12:02 The Struggles of an Actor: Finding a Footing in LA

15:06 Networking and Community in the Film Industry

17:59 The Breakthrough: Becoming a Stunt Performer

20:51 Transitioning from Stunts to Acting

23:55 The Hustle: Balancing Jobs and Passion

27:09 Preparing for the Role: Doubling for Ben Stiller

27:43 The Journey Begins: From Awareness to Opportunity

30:09 Seizing the Moment: The Importance of Preparation

32:52 The Humbling Experience of Stunt Work

35:44 The Duality of Stunt Work: Gift and Challenge

39:09 Behind the Scenes: The Reality of Stunt Work

42:34 Directing: Bringing Vision to Life

46:55 Documentary Insights: Learning from Experience

48:25 DocuView Déjà Vu

Sponsor: http://ArtillerySports.com Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your order today!

]]>263e6cb5-7737-4cb4-9bbc-60c32afd908fThu, 10 Apr 2025 04:30:00 -050050:52falsefull249249Episode 248: Deep Talks with an Entertainment Lawyer - Part 1Deep Talks with an Entertainment Lawyer - Part 1In this exciting episode of Documentary First, host Christian Taylor welcomes Anne Easton, a brilliant entertainment lawyer and creative, to the team!

Anne brings a wealth of knowledge and a powerhouse combination of legal expertise, creative insight, and deep industry experience to the table. In this lively conversation, they dive into the often-overlooked but crucial role of legal advice in documentary filmmaking.

From navigating contracts and rights management to understanding the importance of forming an LLC, Anne shares why filmmakers should consider legal professionals as early partners in their projects. Anne also explains key legal concepts like indemnity and how they protect filmmakers, while discussing the emotional side of working with lawyers.

With a focus on practical tips for indie filmmakers, Anne and Christian highlight how good legal groundwork can smooth the entire production process, ensuring that your creative vision stays protected. Plus, they share some must-see documentaries that perfectly capture the intersection of law and storytelling.

She is currently working on a creative non-fiction, coming-of-age book about a young woman from California moving to Saudi Arabia in the early 1980s.

DocuView Déjà Vu


Timecodes

00:00 Introduction to Documentary First

07:02 Understanding Entertainment Law

20:22 The Importance of Legal Agreements

28:06 Budgeting for Legal Services

34:19 Understanding Indemnity and Its Implications

45:12 Finding the Right Legal Representation

51:20 Documentary Recommendations and Insights

Sponsor: http://ArtillerySports.com Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your order today!

]]>In this exciting episode of Documentary First, host Christian Taylor welcomes Anne Easton, a brilliant entertainment lawyer and creative, to the team!

Anne brings a wealth of knowledge and a powerhouse combination of legal expertise, creative insight, and deep industry experience to the table. In this lively conversation, they dive into the often-overlooked but crucial role of legal advice in documentary filmmaking.

From navigating contracts and rights management to understanding the importance of forming an LLC, Anne shares why filmmakers should consider legal professionals as early partners in their projects. Anne also explains key legal concepts like indemnity and how they protect filmmakers, while discussing the emotional side of working with lawyers.

With a focus on practical tips for indie filmmakers, Anne and Christian highlight how good legal groundwork can smooth the entire production process, ensuring that your creative vision stays protected. Plus, they share some must-see documentaries that perfectly capture the intersection of law and storytelling.

She is currently working on a creative non-fiction, coming-of-age book about a young woman from California moving to Saudi Arabia in the early 1980s.

DocuView Déjà Vu


Timecodes

00:00 Introduction to Documentary First

07:02 Understanding Entertainment Law

20:22 The Importance of Legal Agreements

28:06 Budgeting for Legal Services

34:19 Understanding Indemnity and Its Implications

45:12 Finding the Right Legal Representation

51:20 Documentary Recommendations and Insights

Sponsor: http://ArtillerySports.com Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your order today!

]]>c46b6e9f-62cc-4c49-ad7e-31f57c45de6eWed, 26 Mar 2025 05:15:00 -050055:17falsefull248248Episode 247 | Eric Gardner, Director of ”Confessions of a CEO”Eric Gardner, Director of ”Confessions of a CEO”Are you fascinated by the power of storytelling and the secrets behind captivating documentaries?

If you’re into deep dives into reality TV, the creative process, and the art of balancing hard-hitting truths with compelling narratives, this episode is for you.

Join host Christian Taylor and visionary documentary filmmaker Eric Gardner as they unpack the making of Confessions of a CEO: My Life in an Out of Balance World—the riveting true story of Tom Gegax. In this heartfelt conversation, Eric shares his personal journey from his early days in reality TV and film school to navigating the ethical and creative challenges of modern documentary filmmaking.

Eric opens up about the difficulties of tackling controversial topics and the lengths he goes to maintain factual integrity. He offers candid insights into innovative techniques like AI-enhanced voiceovers and the delicate art of reenactments that bring his stories to life. With a nod to the groundbreaking impact of films like Super Size Me, he also reveals how his experiences—both triumphant and challenging—have shaped his unique perspective on storytelling.

This episode is a must-listen for anyone passionate about documentaries, film production, or simply eager to discover how raw, honest storytelling can change the way we see the world. Whether you’re an aspiring filmmaker or a dedicated fan of transformative cinema, prepare to be inspired by a conversation that blends creative passion with real-world insights and a genuine love for the art of filmmaking.

Go to confessionsofaceomovie.com for more information including how to watch the documentary.

DocuView Déjà Vu

Eric Gardner:

Three Identical Strangers, 2018, 96 mins, Watch on Tubi or Amazon/Prime, IMDB Link: Three Identical Strangers (2018) - IMDb

Timecodes

00:00 Introduction to Documentary Filmmaking 03:28 Eric Gardner's Background and Film Overview 05:45 Navigating Controversial Subjects in Documentary 10:11 The Role of Distributors in Documentary Success 18:43 Gardner's Career First Steps 26:00 Editing Battle Stories 33:00 "Confessions of a CEO" 41:00 Challenges To Find Entertainment 44:50 Reenactment Critiques 56:47 Docuview Déjà Vu Segment

Sponsor: http://ArtillerySports.com Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your order today!

]]>Are you fascinated by the power of storytelling and the secrets behind captivating documentaries?

If you’re into deep dives into reality TV, the creative process, and the art of balancing hard-hitting truths with compelling narratives, this episode is for you.

Join host Christian Taylor and visionary documentary filmmaker Eric Gardner as they unpack the making of Confessions of a CEO: My Life in an Out of Balance World—the riveting true story of Tom Gegax. In this heartfelt conversation, Eric shares his personal journey from his early days in reality TV and film school to navigating the ethical and creative challenges of modern documentary filmmaking.

Eric opens up about the difficulties of tackling controversial topics and the lengths he goes to maintain factual integrity. He offers candid insights into innovative techniques like AI-enhanced voiceovers and the delicate art of reenactments that bring his stories to life. With a nod to the groundbreaking impact of films like Super Size Me, he also reveals how his experiences—both triumphant and challenging—have shaped his unique perspective on storytelling.

This episode is a must-listen for anyone passionate about documentaries, film production, or simply eager to discover how raw, honest storytelling can change the way we see the world. Whether you’re an aspiring filmmaker or a dedicated fan of transformative cinema, prepare to be inspired by a conversation that blends creative passion with real-world insights and a genuine love for the art of filmmaking.

Go to confessionsofaceomovie.com for more information including how to watch the documentary.

DocuView Déjà Vu

Eric Gardner:

Three Identical Strangers, 2018, 96 mins, Watch on Tubi or Amazon/Prime, IMDB Link: Three Identical Strangers (2018) - IMDb

Timecodes

00:00 Introduction to Documentary Filmmaking 03:28 Eric Gardner's Background and Film Overview 05:45 Navigating Controversial Subjects in Documentary 10:11 The Role of Distributors in Documentary Success 18:43 Gardner's Career First Steps 26:00 Editing Battle Stories 33:00 "Confessions of a CEO" 41:00 Challenges To Find Entertainment 44:50 Reenactment Critiques 56:47 Docuview Déjà Vu Segment

Sponsor: http://ArtillerySports.com Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your order today!

]]>857643ec-0f8e-47e0-b634-6246057673ceFri, 14 Mar 2025 05:18:00 -050059:43falsefull247247Liz Carpenter Documentary: How She Shook Up Washington, Part 2Liz Carpenter Documentary: How She Shook Up Washington, Part 2How did Liz Carpenter use Nikita Khrushchev to open the National Press Club to women?

When Dwight Eisenhower was president, women reporters couldn't join the all-male National Press Club or ask questions at its newsmaker luncheons. The first breakthrough, Christy Carpenter says, was a seat in the balcony above the ballroom, where women could watch but not ask. So her mother, Liz Carpenter, lobbied the speakers themselves. Through the Soviet embassy, she got Nikita Khrushchev to refuse to speak on his visit to Washington unless women were allowed. "My God, it's the middle of the Cold War," Christy says. The Press Club wanted Khrushchev, and women got in.

In Episode 246, the second of two parts, Christian talks again with Abby Ginzberg and Christy Carpenter, the co-directors of Shaking It Up: The Life and Times of Liz Carpenter. Christy tells how her mother, born in Texas five days after the adoption of the 19th Amendment, took a train to Washington at 22 with her clippings and a scrapbook under her arm and was soon covering Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt's press conferences. Abby explains why "you can't do a resume" in a portrait film, what had to be cut, and why they went looking for Liz's humor, like her advice to return all your phone calls before milking time.

They talk about getting Dan Rather, Bill Moyers and both Johnson daughters on camera, about Liz's husband Les, who Christy says was her equal in a marriage that was rare for its time, and about the long line of strong Texas women Liz came from. And Christy, who once served on the board of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, explains how the film found its way to public television stations across the country.

WATCH THE FILM: Shaking It Up: The Life and Times of Liz Carpenter is on PBS. Learn more at lizcarpenterfilm.com.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How Liz Carpenter broke into Washington journalism at 22
  • How she used Khrushchev's visit to open the National Press Club to women
  • Why Abby says Liz was a feminist from the very beginning
  • How Christy's family ties brought Dan Rather and Bill Moyers on camera
  • What the Johnson daughters said about saying no to Liz
  • Why Les Carpenter was unusual for a husband of his time
  • Why a portrait film can't cover someone's whole resume
  • Where to place a subject's family history in the story
  • How Austin PBS and American Public Television took the film to stations nationwide

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

How did women get into the National Press Club?

Christy Carpenter says women reporters were first allowed to sit in a balcony above the ballroom, where they could watch but not ask questions. Her mother, Liz Carpenter, then lobbied visiting newsmakers to refuse to speak unless women could take part. Through the Soviet embassy, she got Nikita Khrushchev to make that demand, and the Press Club, wanting him in the middle of the Cold War, let women in.

What did Liz Carpenter do in the Johnson White House?

Christy Carpenter says her mother covered Lyndon Johnson as a congressman, senator and majority leader, worked for him as vice president, and then became Lady Bird Johnson's chief of staff in the White House. As Christy recalls Lynda Johnson Robb putting it, shyness was not a word in Liz's lexicon. Abby Ginzberg says Liz managed so much of the White House choreography that there wasn't much room to say no to her.

How do you make a portrait documentary about a long life?

Abby Ginzberg says "you can't do a resume." Liz Carpenter's travels with Vice President Johnson and her years as an assistant secretary in the Department of Education didn't make the film. Instead, Abby says, you choose the themes, like Liz being a feminist from day one, and look for grace notes that reinforce the portrait, such as her humor.

How did Shaking It Up get on PBS?

Christy Carpenter took the sizzle reel to Austin PBS, which became the presenting station. The film was then distributed by American Public Television, a nonprofit that serves public television stations, for Women's History Month in March 2025. Abby says the first airings were on WNET in New York and KQED in the San Francisco Bay Area, and Christy says all 11 Texas stations carried it.

DOCUVIEW DEJA VIEW PICK

  • A Double Life (2023), directed by Catherine Masud and produced by Abby Ginzberg. Abby's pick, about Steve Bingham, a lawyer who lived underground for 13 years after he was accused of bringing a gun into San Quentin, and his return to stand trial.

Christy's and Abby's other picks are in Part 1 (Episode 245). See every guest pick on the DocuView Deja View page.

SPONSORED BY ARTILLERY SPORTS

Artillery Sports sells quality sports equipment and uses a portion of its profits to help care for our nation's veterans. Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your first order at artillerysports.com.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen on your favorite app: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT

Documentary First: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUESTS

Christy Carpenter is Liz Carpenter's daughter and the film's co-director and co-producer. A lawyer by training, she worked in early interactive media and communications, served on the board of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, and was EVP and COO of the Paley Center for Media and CEO of the Winthrop Rockefeller Institute. The film's website

Abby Ginzberg is a Peabody Award-winning director and an inductee of the Silver Circle of the National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences, and has been making documentaries about race and social justice for more than 35 years. Her films include Soft Vengeance: Albie Sachs and the New South Africa and Barbara Lee: Speaking Truth to Power, winner of the 2022 NAACP Image Award for Outstanding Documentary. Abby's bio

Start with Part 1 (Episode 245), on how Abby and Christy met, how they raised the money, and what the film's archival footage and music cost.

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>How did Liz Carpenter use Nikita Khrushchev to open the National Press Club to women?

When Dwight Eisenhower was president, women reporters couldn't join the all-male National Press Club or ask questions at its newsmaker luncheons. The first breakthrough, Christy Carpenter says, was a seat in the balcony above the ballroom, where women could watch but not ask. So her mother, Liz Carpenter, lobbied the speakers themselves. Through the Soviet embassy, she got Nikita Khrushchev to refuse to speak on his visit to Washington unless women were allowed. "My God, it's the middle of the Cold War," Christy says. The Press Club wanted Khrushchev, and women got in.

In Episode 246, the second of two parts, Christian talks again with Abby Ginzberg and Christy Carpenter, the co-directors of Shaking It Up: The Life and Times of Liz Carpenter. Christy tells how her mother, born in Texas five days after the adoption of the 19th Amendment, took a train to Washington at 22 with her clippings and a scrapbook under her arm and was soon covering Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt's press conferences. Abby explains why "you can't do a resume" in a portrait film, what had to be cut, and why they went looking for Liz's humor, like her advice to return all your phone calls before milking time.

They talk about getting Dan Rather, Bill Moyers and both Johnson daughters on camera, about Liz's husband Les, who Christy says was her equal in a marriage that was rare for its time, and about the long line of strong Texas women Liz came from. And Christy, who once served on the board of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, explains how the film found its way to public television stations across the country.

WATCH THE FILM: Shaking It Up: The Life and Times of Liz Carpenter is on PBS. Learn more at lizcarpenterfilm.com.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How Liz Carpenter broke into Washington journalism at 22
  • How she used Khrushchev's visit to open the National Press Club to women
  • Why Abby says Liz was a feminist from the very beginning
  • How Christy's family ties brought Dan Rather and Bill Moyers on camera
  • What the Johnson daughters said about saying no to Liz
  • Why Les Carpenter was unusual for a husband of his time
  • Why a portrait film can't cover someone's whole resume
  • Where to place a subject's family history in the story
  • How Austin PBS and American Public Television took the film to stations nationwide

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

How did women get into the National Press Club?

Christy Carpenter says women reporters were first allowed to sit in a balcony above the ballroom, where they could watch but not ask questions. Her mother, Liz Carpenter, then lobbied visiting newsmakers to refuse to speak unless women could take part. Through the Soviet embassy, she got Nikita Khrushchev to make that demand, and the Press Club, wanting him in the middle of the Cold War, let women in.

What did Liz Carpenter do in the Johnson White House?

Christy Carpenter says her mother covered Lyndon Johnson as a congressman, senator and majority leader, worked for him as vice president, and then became Lady Bird Johnson's chief of staff in the White House. As Christy recalls Lynda Johnson Robb putting it, shyness was not a word in Liz's lexicon. Abby Ginzberg says Liz managed so much of the White House choreography that there wasn't much room to say no to her.

How do you make a portrait documentary about a long life?

Abby Ginzberg says "you can't do a resume." Liz Carpenter's travels with Vice President Johnson and her years as an assistant secretary in the Department of Education didn't make the film. Instead, Abby says, you choose the themes, like Liz being a feminist from day one, and look for grace notes that reinforce the portrait, such as her humor.

How did Shaking It Up get on PBS?

Christy Carpenter took the sizzle reel to Austin PBS, which became the presenting station. The film was then distributed by American Public Television, a nonprofit that serves public television stations, for Women's History Month in March 2025. Abby says the first airings were on WNET in New York and KQED in the San Francisco Bay Area, and Christy says all 11 Texas stations carried it.

DOCUVIEW DEJA VIEW PICK

  • A Double Life (2023), directed by Catherine Masud and produced by Abby Ginzberg. Abby's pick, about Steve Bingham, a lawyer who lived underground for 13 years after he was accused of bringing a gun into San Quentin, and his return to stand trial.

Christy's and Abby's other picks are in Part 1 (Episode 245). See every guest pick on the DocuView Deja View page.

SPONSORED BY ARTILLERY SPORTS

Artillery Sports sells quality sports equipment and uses a portion of its profits to help care for our nation's veterans. Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your first order at artillerysports.com.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen on your favorite app: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT

Documentary First: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUESTS

Christy Carpenter is Liz Carpenter's daughter and the film's co-director and co-producer. A lawyer by training, she worked in early interactive media and communications, served on the board of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, and was EVP and COO of the Paley Center for Media and CEO of the Winthrop Rockefeller Institute. The film's website

Abby Ginzberg is a Peabody Award-winning director and an inductee of the Silver Circle of the National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences, and has been making documentaries about race and social justice for more than 35 years. Her films include Soft Vengeance: Albie Sachs and the New South Africa and Barbara Lee: Speaking Truth to Power, winner of the 2022 NAACP Image Award for Outstanding Documentary. Abby's bio

Start with Part 1 (Episode 245), on how Abby and Christy met, how they raised the money, and what the film's archival footage and music cost.

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>0dea7ddf-aa82-412f-ab22-9b1cfa9d5a5fThu, 06 Mar 2025 16:34:00 -060032:43falsefull246246Liz Carpenter Documentary: Her Daughter Tells Her Story, Part 1Liz Carpenter Documentary: Her Daughter Tells Her Story, Part 1What does it take to tell your own mother's story on film?

Christy Carpenter spent years going through her mother's papers. Liz Carpenter, as Christy says, was "a complete pack rat," and Christy was planning to write a book. Then her old friend Abby Ginzberg, a Peabody Award-winning documentary director, called and said she'd like to make a film instead. "She's too funny," Abby remembers thinking. "We need to put her up on the screen. Then you can put her in a book later."

In Episode 245, the first of two parts, Christian talks with Abby and Christy, the co-directors of Shaking It Up: The Life and Times of Liz Carpenter. Liz was a Texas journalist, a key aide to Lyndon and Lady Bird Johnson, and a leader in the women's movement. Christian worked in media in Washington in the early 1980s, and she says Liz blazed a trail for her. Abby and Christy have been friends since they were housemates in London in 1969. Abby tells how she went from practicing law to making training films for workers, where "all I had to do was make people be able to stay awake," and why she thinks her Peabody came from choosing a story nobody else was telling.

Then they get honest about what a film like this costs. They raised a little over half a million dollars, much of it from friends, and gave their own time for free. Archival rights, Abby says, "have gone through the roof." They talk about why an archival producer is worth it, the music they couldn't give up, the song they couldn't get, and how Christy's notes on her mother's papers sent the search for footage in the right direction.

WATCH THE FILM: Shaking It Up: The Life and Times of Liz Carpenter is on PBS. Learn more at lizcarpenterfilm.com.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • Why Liz Carpenter meant so much to Christian as a young woman in Washington media
  • How Abby went from criminal defense lawyer to documentary filmmaker
  • Why Abby credits her Peabody to picking a subject nobody else had filmed
  • How Liz's 100th birthday led to the film
  • Why Abby pushed for a film before a book
  • The three chapters that shaped the story: journalism, the White House and the women's movement
  • How childhood friends helped pay for the sizzle reel
  • What archival rights cost for festivals, for PBS and in perpetuity
  • Why you can love a song, budget for it and still be told no
  • How two editors helped weave the story together

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Who made the Liz Carpenter documentary?

Shaking It Up: The Life and Times of Liz Carpenter was directed and produced by Abby Ginzberg and Christy Carpenter, Liz's daughter. Christy had spent years reviewing her mother's papers. Abby, a Peabody Award-winning director, likely first met Liz when she and Christy were housemates in London in 1969. Christy says it took roughly three years, the last two of them "really hard work."

How much do archival rights cost for a documentary?

Abby Ginzberg says archival costs "have gone through the roof." Their rights for a year of film festivals cost over $60,000 or $70,000, and upgrading for public television doubled it. They licensed footage for five years for the PBS broadcast, because rights in perpetuity roughly double the cost again.

Why hire an archival producer?

Abby and Christy say their film depended on archival material spread across the networks, C-SPAN, presidential libraries and smaller archives. Christy says keeping track of who owns each item is "tedious work that takes an expert." Abby puts the going rate at $50 to $60 an hour, and says they also hired a separate music rights producer.

How did Shaking It Up raise its budget?

Christy Carpenter says the budget was a little over half a million dollars. Her childhood friends came through early, including one who paid for the sizzle reel and another who gave the largest single donation. Every dollar came in as a charitable gift through nonprofit sponsors, including Austin PBS. Abby and Christy were never paid for their own time.

DOCUVIEW DEJA VIEW PICKS

  • The Vote (2020), American Experience, written and directed by Michelle Ferrari. Christy's pick, about the last push to ratify the 19th Amendment, told in two parts.
  • Porcelain War (2024), by Brendan Bellomo and Slava Leontyev. Abby's pick, about Ukrainian artists who keep making porcelain figures during the war.
  • No Other Land (2024), by Basel Adra, Hamdan Ballal, Yuval Abraham and Rachel Szor. Abby's second pick, made by Palestinian and Israeli filmmakers together in the West Bank. She says it made her cry many times.

See every guest pick on the DocuView Deja View page.

SPONSORED BY ARTILLERY SPORTS

Artillery Sports sells quality sports equipment and uses a portion of its profits to help care for our nation's veterans. Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your first order at artillerysports.com.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen on your favorite app: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT

Documentary First: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUESTS

Abby Ginzberg is a Peabody Award-winning director and an inductee of the Silver Circle of the National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences, and has been making documentaries about race and social justice for more than 35 years. A former lawyer, she won the Peabody for Soft Vengeance: Albie Sachs and the New South Africa (2014). Her film Barbara Lee: Speaking Truth to Power won the 2022 NAACP Image Award for Outstanding Documentary. Abby's bio

Christy Carpenter is Liz Carpenter's daughter and the film's co-director and co-producer. A graduate of Brown University with a law degree, she worked in early interactive media, public relations and communications, and served as EVP and COO of the Paley Center for Media and as CEO of the Winthrop Rockefeller Institute. The film's website

The conversation continues in Part 2 (Episode 246), on who Liz Carpenter was, how they balanced the portrait and the politics, and how the film got to PBS.

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>What does it take to tell your own mother's story on film?

Christy Carpenter spent years going through her mother's papers. Liz Carpenter, as Christy says, was "a complete pack rat," and Christy was planning to write a book. Then her old friend Abby Ginzberg, a Peabody Award-winning documentary director, called and said she'd like to make a film instead. "She's too funny," Abby remembers thinking. "We need to put her up on the screen. Then you can put her in a book later."

In Episode 245, the first of two parts, Christian talks with Abby and Christy, the co-directors of Shaking It Up: The Life and Times of Liz Carpenter. Liz was a Texas journalist, a key aide to Lyndon and Lady Bird Johnson, and a leader in the women's movement. Christian worked in media in Washington in the early 1980s, and she says Liz blazed a trail for her. Abby and Christy have been friends since they were housemates in London in 1969. Abby tells how she went from practicing law to making training films for workers, where "all I had to do was make people be able to stay awake," and why she thinks her Peabody came from choosing a story nobody else was telling.

Then they get honest about what a film like this costs. They raised a little over half a million dollars, much of it from friends, and gave their own time for free. Archival rights, Abby says, "have gone through the roof." They talk about why an archival producer is worth it, the music they couldn't give up, the song they couldn't get, and how Christy's notes on her mother's papers sent the search for footage in the right direction.

WATCH THE FILM: Shaking It Up: The Life and Times of Liz Carpenter is on PBS. Learn more at lizcarpenterfilm.com.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • Why Liz Carpenter meant so much to Christian as a young woman in Washington media
  • How Abby went from criminal defense lawyer to documentary filmmaker
  • Why Abby credits her Peabody to picking a subject nobody else had filmed
  • How Liz's 100th birthday led to the film
  • Why Abby pushed for a film before a book
  • The three chapters that shaped the story: journalism, the White House and the women's movement
  • How childhood friends helped pay for the sizzle reel
  • What archival rights cost for festivals, for PBS and in perpetuity
  • Why you can love a song, budget for it and still be told no
  • How two editors helped weave the story together

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Who made the Liz Carpenter documentary?

Shaking It Up: The Life and Times of Liz Carpenter was directed and produced by Abby Ginzberg and Christy Carpenter, Liz's daughter. Christy had spent years reviewing her mother's papers. Abby, a Peabody Award-winning director, likely first met Liz when she and Christy were housemates in London in 1969. Christy says it took roughly three years, the last two of them "really hard work."

How much do archival rights cost for a documentary?

Abby Ginzberg says archival costs "have gone through the roof." Their rights for a year of film festivals cost over $60,000 or $70,000, and upgrading for public television doubled it. They licensed footage for five years for the PBS broadcast, because rights in perpetuity roughly double the cost again.

Why hire an archival producer?

Abby and Christy say their film depended on archival material spread across the networks, C-SPAN, presidential libraries and smaller archives. Christy says keeping track of who owns each item is "tedious work that takes an expert." Abby puts the going rate at $50 to $60 an hour, and says they also hired a separate music rights producer.

How did Shaking It Up raise its budget?

Christy Carpenter says the budget was a little over half a million dollars. Her childhood friends came through early, including one who paid for the sizzle reel and another who gave the largest single donation. Every dollar came in as a charitable gift through nonprofit sponsors, including Austin PBS. Abby and Christy were never paid for their own time.

DOCUVIEW DEJA VIEW PICKS

  • The Vote (2020), American Experience, written and directed by Michelle Ferrari. Christy's pick, about the last push to ratify the 19th Amendment, told in two parts.
  • Porcelain War (2024), by Brendan Bellomo and Slava Leontyev. Abby's pick, about Ukrainian artists who keep making porcelain figures during the war.
  • No Other Land (2024), by Basel Adra, Hamdan Ballal, Yuval Abraham and Rachel Szor. Abby's second pick, made by Palestinian and Israeli filmmakers together in the West Bank. She says it made her cry many times.

See every guest pick on the DocuView Deja View page.

SPONSORED BY ARTILLERY SPORTS

Artillery Sports sells quality sports equipment and uses a portion of its profits to help care for our nation's veterans. Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your first order at artillerysports.com.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen on your favorite app: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT

Documentary First: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUESTS

Abby Ginzberg is a Peabody Award-winning director and an inductee of the Silver Circle of the National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences, and has been making documentaries about race and social justice for more than 35 years. A former lawyer, she won the Peabody for Soft Vengeance: Albie Sachs and the New South Africa (2014). Her film Barbara Lee: Speaking Truth to Power won the 2022 NAACP Image Award for Outstanding Documentary. Abby's bio

Christy Carpenter is Liz Carpenter's daughter and the film's co-director and co-producer. A graduate of Brown University with a law degree, she worked in early interactive media, public relations and communications, and served as EVP and COO of the Paley Center for Media and as CEO of the Winthrop Rockefeller Institute. The film's website

The conversation continues in Part 2 (Episode 246), on who Liz Carpenter was, how they balanced the portrait and the politics, and how the film got to PBS.

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>ab9a3a95-8e9a-4084-b004-8366423e1922Sat, 01 Mar 2025 06:36:00 -060048:59falsefull245245Episode 244 | Film Entrepreneurship w/ Teddy CannonFilm Entrepreneurship Teddy CannonIn this episode of Documentary First, host Christian Taylor sits down with seasoned media professional Teddy Cannon, whose 25+ years in the industry span politics, entertainment, and documentary filmmaking. Teddy shares his journey growing up in a foreign service family, transitioning from in front of the camera to behind it, and his deep dive into the world of archival production.

They explore the critical role of archival producers, the complexities of rights and clearances, and the evolving landscape of documentary filmmaking in response to current events. Teddy also discusses the devastating impact of the Palisades Fire on LA’s film industry, the broader challenges of the pandemic and strikes, and why documentaries are on the rise. Plus, he introduces 3PSync and Arcworks—two groundbreaking AI-driven tools designed to revolutionize archival management and streamline the filmmaking process.

Docuview Déjà Vu

Netflix vs. The World, 2019, 104 mins, Watch on Netflix and various streamers including Prime, IMDB Link: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8407418/reference/

Kiss The Future, 2023, 103 mins, Watch on Paramount +, IMDB Link: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt17022868/reference/

Movie: Bank of Dave, 2023, 107 mins, Watch on Netflix or Prime, IMDB Link: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt14308636/reference/

Timecodes

00:00 Introduction to Documentary Filmmaking

02:19 Teddy Cannon's Background and Experience

08:38 The Journey from Politics to Filmmaking

10:55 The Evolution of Teddy's Career in Media

15:31 The Role of Archival Producers in Documentaries

23:48 Challenges in Archival Rights and Clearances

25:40 The Impact of the Palisades Fire

29:57 The State of the Film Industry Post-Fire

34:57 Navigating Industry Changes and Challenges

41:07 The Role of AI in Documentary Production

45:50 Introducing Arcworks: A New Solution for Archival Management 52:04 Docu-View DejaVu Segment

]]>In this episode of Documentary First, host Christian Taylor sits down with seasoned media professional Teddy Cannon, whose 25+ years in the industry span politics, entertainment, and documentary filmmaking. Teddy shares his journey growing up in a foreign service family, transitioning from in front of the camera to behind it, and his deep dive into the world of archival production.

They explore the critical role of archival producers, the complexities of rights and clearances, and the evolving landscape of documentary filmmaking in response to current events. Teddy also discusses the devastating impact of the Palisades Fire on LA’s film industry, the broader challenges of the pandemic and strikes, and why documentaries are on the rise. Plus, he introduces 3PSync and Arcworks—two groundbreaking AI-driven tools designed to revolutionize archival management and streamline the filmmaking process.

Docuview Déjà Vu

Netflix vs. The World, 2019, 104 mins, Watch on Netflix and various streamers including Prime, IMDB Link: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8407418/reference/

Kiss The Future, 2023, 103 mins, Watch on Paramount +, IMDB Link: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt17022868/reference/

Movie: Bank of Dave, 2023, 107 mins, Watch on Netflix or Prime, IMDB Link: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt14308636/reference/

Timecodes

00:00 Introduction to Documentary Filmmaking

02:19 Teddy Cannon's Background and Experience

08:38 The Journey from Politics to Filmmaking

10:55 The Evolution of Teddy's Career in Media

15:31 The Role of Archival Producers in Documentaries

23:48 Challenges in Archival Rights and Clearances

25:40 The Impact of the Palisades Fire

29:57 The State of the Film Industry Post-Fire

34:57 Navigating Industry Changes and Challenges

41:07 The Role of AI in Documentary Production

45:50 Introducing Arcworks: A New Solution for Archival Management 52:04 Docu-View DejaVu Segment

]]>1a0d970e-ae87-49c2-be70-55ede1d36e17Sat, 22 Feb 2025 18:54:00 -060057:17falsefull244244Episode 243 | Q&A With East Coast Filmmaker Robin HamiltonEpisode 243 | Q&A With East Coast Filmmaker Robin HamiltonIn this powerful episode of Documentary First, host Christian Taylor sits down with Emmy-winning filmmaker Robin Hamilton for a deep dive into the art of storytelling, social justice, and the impact of documentary filmmaking. Robin shares her journey from journalism to filmmaking, her passion for uncovering untold stories, and the responsibility filmmakers have in shaping conversations about history and justice.

Together, they explore the significance of Fannie Lou Hamer’s legacy, the challenges of tackling difficult histories, and the bravery required to address controversial topics. Robin reflects on how storytelling can be a tool for healing, resistance, and change—especially in today’s turbulent socio-political climate. Whether you’re a filmmaker, history enthusiast, or just love compelling stories, this episode is packed with inspiration, insight, and motivation to tell stories that truly matter.

Robin's Recommended books:

“Memoir of a Race Traitor” by Mab Segrest. Link: Memoir of a Race Traitor | The New Press

“This Little Light of Mine: the Life of Fannie Lou Hamer” by Kay Mills. Link: https://library.si.edu/donate/adopt-a-book/little-light-mine

DocuView Déjà Vu

Robin:

"Odessa’s Reign", 2021, Short Film, 22 mins, Watch trailer on Around Robin Production Company IMDB Link: Odessa's Reign (2021) - IMDb

“13th” , 2016, 100mins, Watch on Netflix, IMDB Link: 13th (2016) - IMDb

Timecodes:

⏳ 01:00 – Introduction to Documentary Filmmaking & Current Events

🎥 03:58 – Meet Robin Hamilton: A Filmmaker’s Journey

📖 06:48 – The Impact of Fannie Lou Hamer’s Story

📰 10:10 – From Journalism to Documentary: A Bold Leap

🎬 13:00 – The Evolution of a Filmmaker’s Style

🛤 15:58 – Tackling Difficult Histories Through Film

🗣 19:03 – The Power of Storytelling in Today’s World

🔎 21:15 – Historical Rhetoric & Its Modern Echoes

💡 23:11 – The Bravery Needed in Storytelling & Journalism

🚧 25:26 – Facing Resistance & Pushing Forward

✊ 27:22 – Drawing Inspiration from Civil Rights Leaders

🔥 29:49 – Why Controversial Stories Must Be Told

⚖️ 31:31 – Understanding the Lasting Impacts of Historical Injustices

💬 33:28 – Conversations That Lead to Healing & Change

👁 35:38 – Acknowledging Personal Bias & Responsibility

🎞 38:04 – DocuView Déjà Vu & Closing Thoughts

]]>In this powerful episode of Documentary First, host Christian Taylor sits down with Emmy-winning filmmaker Robin Hamilton for a deep dive into the art of storytelling, social justice, and the impact of documentary filmmaking. Robin shares her journey from journalism to filmmaking, her passion for uncovering untold stories, and the responsibility filmmakers have in shaping conversations about history and justice.

Together, they explore the significance of Fannie Lou Hamer’s legacy, the challenges of tackling difficult histories, and the bravery required to address controversial topics. Robin reflects on how storytelling can be a tool for healing, resistance, and change—especially in today’s turbulent socio-political climate. Whether you’re a filmmaker, history enthusiast, or just love compelling stories, this episode is packed with inspiration, insight, and motivation to tell stories that truly matter.

Robin's Recommended books:

“Memoir of a Race Traitor” by Mab Segrest. Link: Memoir of a Race Traitor | The New Press

“This Little Light of Mine: the Life of Fannie Lou Hamer” by Kay Mills. Link: https://library.si.edu/donate/adopt-a-book/little-light-mine

DocuView Déjà Vu

Robin:

"Odessa’s Reign", 2021, Short Film, 22 mins, Watch trailer on Around Robin Production Company IMDB Link: Odessa's Reign (2021) - IMDb

“13th” , 2016, 100mins, Watch on Netflix, IMDB Link: 13th (2016) - IMDb

Timecodes:

⏳ 01:00 – Introduction to Documentary Filmmaking & Current Events

🎥 03:58 – Meet Robin Hamilton: A Filmmaker’s Journey

📖 06:48 – The Impact of Fannie Lou Hamer’s Story

📰 10:10 – From Journalism to Documentary: A Bold Leap

🎬 13:00 – The Evolution of a Filmmaker’s Style

🛤 15:58 – Tackling Difficult Histories Through Film

🗣 19:03 – The Power of Storytelling in Today’s World

🔎 21:15 – Historical Rhetoric & Its Modern Echoes

💡 23:11 – The Bravery Needed in Storytelling & Journalism

🚧 25:26 – Facing Resistance & Pushing Forward

✊ 27:22 – Drawing Inspiration from Civil Rights Leaders

🔥 29:49 – Why Controversial Stories Must Be Told

⚖️ 31:31 – Understanding the Lasting Impacts of Historical Injustices

💬 33:28 – Conversations That Lead to Healing & Change

👁 35:38 – Acknowledging Personal Bias & Responsibility

🎞 38:04 – DocuView Déjà Vu & Closing Thoughts

]]>6f344238-4be8-4d69-afe1-2193d9547a3fWed, 29 Jan 2025 20:02:00 -060040:52falsefull243243Episode 242 | Interview with Mt. Everest Explorer: Alex HarzEpisode 242 | Interview with Mt. Everest Explorer: Alex HarzIn this episode, filmmaker and Mount Everest summiteer Alex Harz takes us on a breathtaking journey, sharing how he turned a childhood dream into a groundbreaking dual-format documentary series. Alex recounts his early years in Spain and Germany, his passion for storytelling, and his evolution as a filmmaker with a strong business mindset.

Listeners will gain insights into the unparalleled challenges of filming on Everest, from navigating deadly icefalls to keeping gear functional in subzero conditions. Alex discusses the creative and technical feats behind producing a 2D film and an immersive VR experience, all while spotlighting the vibrant culture of Nepal and the Sherpa people. He also delves into the decade-long preparation for the climb, the massive editing process, and his strategic approach to budgeting and distribution. This conversation is packed with lessons for filmmakers and adventurers alike.

Timecodes

01:00 Introduction to Alex Harz and His Journey 07:44 Transitioning from Film to Mountaineering 13:32 Finding a Greater Purpose 19:22 Challenges of Filming on Everest 26:29 The Technical Aspects of Filming 34:20 Budgeting the Everest Expedition 40:20 DOCU-VIEW DEJAVU SEGMENT

]]>In this episode, filmmaker and Mount Everest summiteer Alex Harz takes us on a breathtaking journey, sharing how he turned a childhood dream into a groundbreaking dual-format documentary series. Alex recounts his early years in Spain and Germany, his passion for storytelling, and his evolution as a filmmaker with a strong business mindset.

Listeners will gain insights into the unparalleled challenges of filming on Everest, from navigating deadly icefalls to keeping gear functional in subzero conditions. Alex discusses the creative and technical feats behind producing a 2D film and an immersive VR experience, all while spotlighting the vibrant culture of Nepal and the Sherpa people. He also delves into the decade-long preparation for the climb, the massive editing process, and his strategic approach to budgeting and distribution. This conversation is packed with lessons for filmmakers and adventurers alike.

Timecodes

01:00 Introduction to Alex Harz and His Journey 07:44 Transitioning from Film to Mountaineering 13:32 Finding a Greater Purpose 19:22 Challenges of Filming on Everest 26:29 The Technical Aspects of Filming 34:20 Budgeting the Everest Expedition 40:20 DOCU-VIEW DEJAVU SEGMENT

]]>cf5fed13-0bc5-4b8a-a678-b3a5ac09e85cWed, 15 Jan 2025 19:20:00 -060044:29falsefull242242Episode 241 | "A Remarkable 2024" Retrospective Company UpdateEpisode 241 | "A Remarkable 2024" Retrospective Company UpdateIn this episode, the team reflects on a groundbreaking year in documentary filmmaking. From innovative theatrical release strategies to building community through outreach and merchandise, they share the key moments that defined their success.

Highlights include the D-Day commemoration, expanding audience engagement through social media, and signing a new distribution deal to bring their film into schools. Through teamwork, persistence, and creative problem-solving, the team achieved new milestones while staying true to their storytelling mission.

Takeaways

  • 2024 was an incredible year for the team.
  • Balancing compelling stories with smart business strategies is essential.
  • Knowing your audience drives both engagement and monetization.
  • Social media experiments revealed what resonates most.
  • Strategic outreach made theatrical releases possible.
  • Merchandise and events connect audiences to the film’s message.
  • Collaboration and self-education helped overcome challenges.
  • Community-building efforts created lasting impact.

Timecodes

00:00 Introduction 02:19 Reflecting on a Successful Year 11:13 Innovative Strategies for Theatrical Release 20:13 Outreach and Engagement Strategies 24:49 D-Day Commemoration and Veteran Experiences 29:07 Building Community Through Content 33:18 Merchandising and Event Engagement 36:54 Reflections on a Year of Achievements

Sponsor: http://ArtillerySports.com Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your order today!

]]>In this episode, the team reflects on a groundbreaking year in documentary filmmaking. From innovative theatrical release strategies to building community through outreach and merchandise, they share the key moments that defined their success.

Highlights include the D-Day commemoration, expanding audience engagement through social media, and signing a new distribution deal to bring their film into schools. Through teamwork, persistence, and creative problem-solving, the team achieved new milestones while staying true to their storytelling mission.

Takeaways

  • 2024 was an incredible year for the team.
  • Balancing compelling stories with smart business strategies is essential.
  • Knowing your audience drives both engagement and monetization.
  • Social media experiments revealed what resonates most.
  • Strategic outreach made theatrical releases possible.
  • Merchandise and events connect audiences to the film’s message.
  • Collaboration and self-education helped overcome challenges.
  • Community-building efforts created lasting impact.

Timecodes

00:00 Introduction 02:19 Reflecting on a Successful Year 11:13 Innovative Strategies for Theatrical Release 20:13 Outreach and Engagement Strategies 24:49 D-Day Commemoration and Veteran Experiences 29:07 Building Community Through Content 33:18 Merchandising and Event Engagement 36:54 Reflections on a Year of Achievements

Sponsor: http://ArtillerySports.com Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your order today!

]]>db363133-7b04-4ba5-8d84-afb3c708599aFri, 20 Dec 2024 04:48:00 -060042:26falsefull241241Episode 240 | Documentary First's Next Steps w/ Jake TaylorEpisode 240 | Documentary First's Next Steps w/ Jake TaylorIn this episode of Documentary First, hosts Christian and Jake Taylor focus on the journey of "The Girl Who Wore Freedom" so far. They explore the challenges of independent filmmaking, the importance of event screenings, and the value of building relationships with audiences.

Logistics of pricing for screenings, the role of merchandising, and the long-term commitment required to see a documentary through is also discussed.

Takeaways

  • Event screenings are crucial for audience engagement and fundraising.
  • Building relationships with viewers enhances the documentary experience.
  • Merchandising can significantly improve audience interaction.
  • Independent filmmakers face unique financial challenges.
  • Pricing for screenings should reflect the audience's ability to pay.
  • Creating a unique experience at screenings is essential.
  • Patience is key in the documentary filmmaking process.
  • Understanding your audience is vital for success.
  • Every event is an opportunity to share stories and build connections.

Timecodes

00:00 Introduction to Documentary First 02:53 The Journey of 'The Girl Who Wore Freedom' 11:08 Challenges and Strategies in Documentary Filmmaking 18:14 The Importance of Screenings and Audience Engagement 25:22 Merchandising as a New Revenue Stream 30:47 Expanding the Documentary Brand 31:12 Archival Footage and Storytelling 32:36 The Battlefield Cross: A Symbol of Sacrifice 35:27 Creating Meaningful Merchandise 39:15 Understanding Audience Preferences 41:04 Investing in Documentary Filmmaking 43:55 The Importance of Event Work 49:55 Finding Your Audience 52:13 Patience in Building a Brand 53:25 DocuView Déjà Vu

DocuView Déjà Vu

JAKE: Documentary: Secrets & Spies: A Nuclear Game, 2024, Watch on HBO MAX, 4 Episode Series, IMDB Link: Secrets & Spies: A Nuclear Game (TV Series 2024– ) ⭐ 7.3 | Documentary

Narrative: The Iron Claw, 2023, 132 mins, Watch on MAX or Prime, IMDB Link: The Iron Claw (2023) ⭐ 7.6 | Biography, Drama, Sport

Christian: Documentary: Mr McMahon, 2024, 6 Episode Series on Netflix, IMDB Link: Mr. McMahon (TV Series 2024) ⭐ 7.7 | Documentary, Biography, Crime

Narrative: A Family Affair, 2024, 111 mins, Watch on Netflix, IMDB Link: A Family Affair (2024) ⭐ 5.3 | Comedy, Drama, Romance

Sponsor: http://ArtillerySports.com Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your order today!

]]>In this episode of Documentary First, hosts Christian and Jake Taylor focus on the journey of "The Girl Who Wore Freedom" so far. They explore the challenges of independent filmmaking, the importance of event screenings, and the value of building relationships with audiences.

Logistics of pricing for screenings, the role of merchandising, and the long-term commitment required to see a documentary through is also discussed.

Takeaways

  • Event screenings are crucial for audience engagement and fundraising.
  • Building relationships with viewers enhances the documentary experience.
  • Merchandising can significantly improve audience interaction.
  • Independent filmmakers face unique financial challenges.
  • Pricing for screenings should reflect the audience's ability to pay.
  • Creating a unique experience at screenings is essential.
  • Patience is key in the documentary filmmaking process.
  • Understanding your audience is vital for success.
  • Every event is an opportunity to share stories and build connections.

Timecodes

00:00 Introduction to Documentary First 02:53 The Journey of 'The Girl Who Wore Freedom' 11:08 Challenges and Strategies in Documentary Filmmaking 18:14 The Importance of Screenings and Audience Engagement 25:22 Merchandising as a New Revenue Stream 30:47 Expanding the Documentary Brand 31:12 Archival Footage and Storytelling 32:36 The Battlefield Cross: A Symbol of Sacrifice 35:27 Creating Meaningful Merchandise 39:15 Understanding Audience Preferences 41:04 Investing in Documentary Filmmaking 43:55 The Importance of Event Work 49:55 Finding Your Audience 52:13 Patience in Building a Brand 53:25 DocuView Déjà Vu

DocuView Déjà Vu

JAKE: Documentary: Secrets & Spies: A Nuclear Game, 2024, Watch on HBO MAX, 4 Episode Series, IMDB Link: Secrets & Spies: A Nuclear Game (TV Series 2024– ) ⭐ 7.3 | Documentary

Narrative: The Iron Claw, 2023, 132 mins, Watch on MAX or Prime, IMDB Link: The Iron Claw (2023) ⭐ 7.6 | Biography, Drama, Sport

Christian: Documentary: Mr McMahon, 2024, 6 Episode Series on Netflix, IMDB Link: Mr. McMahon (TV Series 2024) ⭐ 7.7 | Documentary, Biography, Crime

Narrative: A Family Affair, 2024, 111 mins, Watch on Netflix, IMDB Link: A Family Affair (2024) ⭐ 5.3 | Comedy, Drama, Romance

Sponsor: http://ArtillerySports.com Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your order today!

]]>31e2849d-ea7e-4a17-9227-7bf327354402Thu, 05 Dec 2024 09:58:00 -060001:01:12falsefull240240Sarah Burns and David McMahon on Leonardo da VinciSarah Burns and David McMahon on Leonardo da VinciHow do you make a four-hour film about a man who left no footage, no photographs and no diary?

That was the puzzle Sarah Burns and David McMahon took on in LEONARDO da VINCI, the two-part PBS documentary they directed with Ken Burns. Their earlier films together were 20th century American history, with footage to spare. Leonardo left paintings, a few of them, and thousands of notebook pages. That's it. So they had to invent a new way to tell a story.

In Episode 239, Christian sits down with Sarah and David, who are married and have made films with Ken Burns from The Central Park Five to Jackie Robinson and Muhammad Ali. David tells how he got his start in documentary filmmaking, keeping an editor's workstation tidy on Ken Burns's Jazz, back when the series was still cut on film and two lost frames were a real problem. Sarah explains why Leonardo was nothing like the brooding genius we picture. He liked to sing and dance and play music, and he was someone you'd want to be around.

The film was about seven years from first idea to broadcast. Along the way came a year living in Italy, 18 months waiting for permission to film The Last Supper, and a night with the Mona Lisa in an empty Louvre. To show a man for whom, as David says, "art and science are just a blur," they changed how they work: split screens, animation, interviews in Italian and French, and a score by Caroline Shaw with the vocal ensemble Roomful of Teeth. As David puts it, Leonardo "seems to have one foot on Mars."

WATCH THE FILM: LEONARDO da VINCI streams on PBS. Purchase options are listed on kenburns.com.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • What cutting Jazz on film taught David about rhythm
  • Why David calls Leonardo perhaps "the most curious human ever to live"
  • Why Sarah says Leonardo was fun-loving, not a solitary, brooding artist
  • What 6,000-plus notebook pages reveal about how he thought
  • How split screens and animation filled in for missing footage
  • Why they interviewed Guillermo del Toro, a heart surgeon and an engineer
  • Why some interviews were kept in their original languages
  • Whether there's a rule for how many talking heads a documentary should have
  • How they got three hours alone with The Last Supper
  • Why the team took a chance on a vocal ensemble in the score

CHAPTERS

0:00 Sarah Burns, David McMahon

8:18 Who Was Leonardo da Vinci?

17:35 Telling a Story Without Footage

23:01 Too Many Talking Heads?

28:42 Inventing a Visual Language

34:05 A Rule Breaker's Private Life

37:55 A Year Living in Italy

40:21 Filming The Last Supper

46:32 Caroline Shaw's Score and Narration

53:33 Mona Lisa After Hours

56:14 DocuView Deja View Picks

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

How did Ken Burns make a Leonardo da Vinci documentary with no footage?

Co-director Sarah Burns says there was no footage, no photographs and only a few paintings, so the team changed its style. Split screens put three things side by side: what Leonardo saw in nature, what he drew on the page and his other work. Co-director David McMahon adds that animation helped show what Leonardo was imagining, like his theory that swirling blood helps heart valves open and close, which took 450 years to prove.

Who directed the PBS Leonardo da Vinci documentary?

LEONARDO da VINCI was directed by Ken Burns, Sarah Burns and David McMahon. Sarah and David wrote it, and the three of them produced it with their colleague Tim McAleer. It aired on PBS November 18 and 19, 2024, in two parts and four hours. Sarah says she and David moved to Italy for a year for the filming, and the team worked out the story together in the edit room.

What do Leonardo da Vinci's notebooks reveal about him?

David McMahon says more than 6,000 pages of Leonardo's notebooks survive, and they are where you can get inside his head. He was not a diarist, so they say little about his feelings. Instead they hold his thinking: studies, proofs and even grocery lists. David thinks Leonardo meant them for publication, for young artists and future scientists, but none of it was published in his lifetime.

How long can you see The Last Supper?

About 15 minutes, in a small group. David McMahon describes the visit: you enter a chamber, the door closes behind you, and only then does the next door open into the old monastery dining hall where the painting is. Sarah Burns says her own 15-minute visit went by incredibly quickly. For the film, David says it took 18 months to get permission, and the crew had three hours to shoot it.

Who composed the music for Ken Burns's Leonardo da Vinci?

Caroline Shaw wrote the score. David McMahon says the team didn't want period music, and at first worried that the voices of the vocal ensemble Roomful of Teeth would fight the dialogue. Instead it made Leonardo feel more human. Shaw worked with a vocal band, a string quartet and a percussion ensemble, and scored the entire film.

DOCUVIEW DEJA VIEW PICKS

  • When We Were Kings (1996), directed by Leon Gast. Sarah's pick, about the run-up to the 1974 fight between Muhammad Ali and George Foreman. She and David watched it while making their Muhammad Ali film.
  • How to Survive a Plague (2012), by David France. David's pick, about how ACT UP used civil disobedience to push for AIDS treatment, built from found footage and VHS tapes of meetings.

See every guest pick on the DocuView Deja View page.

SPONSORED BY ARTILLERY SPORTS

Artillery Sports sells quality sports equipment and uses a portion of its profits to help care for our nation's veterans. Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your first order at artillerysports.com.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen on your favorite app: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT

Documentary First: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUESTS

Sarah Burns is the author of The Central Park Five: A Chronicle of a City Wilding (Knopf, 2011). With David McMahon and Ken Burns she produced, wrote and directed The Central Park Five, which premiered at Cannes in 2012, was named Best Non-Fiction Film of 2012 by the New York Film Critics Circle and won a 2013 Peabody Award. With David and Ken she also made Jackie Robinson (PBS, 2016; Emmy nomination for writing, WGA Award), East Lake Meadows: A Public Housing Story (2020), Muhammad Ali (PBS, 2021; WGA nomination) and LEONARDO da VINCI (PBS, 2024). She was raised in Walpole, New Hampshire, and graduated from Yale with a degree in American Studies. Sarah's bio

David McMahon first worked with Ken Burns in 1999, on Jazz, and is Sarah's co-director on every film above. Raised in Clarence, New York, he graduated from the University of Michigan. He and Sarah are married and live in Brooklyn with their children. David's bio

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

]]>How do you make a four-hour film about a man who left no footage, no photographs and no diary?

That was the puzzle Sarah Burns and David McMahon took on in LEONARDO da VINCI, the two-part PBS documentary they directed with Ken Burns. Their earlier films together were 20th century American history, with footage to spare. Leonardo left paintings, a few of them, and thousands of notebook pages. That's it. So they had to invent a new way to tell a story.

In Episode 239, Christian sits down with Sarah and David, who are married and have made films with Ken Burns from The Central Park Five to Jackie Robinson and Muhammad Ali. David tells how he got his start in documentary filmmaking, keeping an editor's workstation tidy on Ken Burns's Jazz, back when the series was still cut on film and two lost frames were a real problem. Sarah explains why Leonardo was nothing like the brooding genius we picture. He liked to sing and dance and play music, and he was someone you'd want to be around.

The film was about seven years from first idea to broadcast. Along the way came a year living in Italy, 18 months waiting for permission to film The Last Supper, and a night with the Mona Lisa in an empty Louvre. To show a man for whom, as David says, "art and science are just a blur," they changed how they work: split screens, animation, interviews in Italian and French, and a score by Caroline Shaw with the vocal ensemble Roomful of Teeth. As David puts it, Leonardo "seems to have one foot on Mars."

WATCH THE FILM: LEONARDO da VINCI streams on PBS. Purchase options are listed on kenburns.com.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • What cutting Jazz on film taught David about rhythm
  • Why David calls Leonardo perhaps "the most curious human ever to live"
  • Why Sarah says Leonardo was fun-loving, not a solitary, brooding artist
  • What 6,000-plus notebook pages reveal about how he thought
  • How split screens and animation filled in for missing footage
  • Why they interviewed Guillermo del Toro, a heart surgeon and an engineer
  • Why some interviews were kept in their original languages
  • Whether there's a rule for how many talking heads a documentary should have
  • How they got three hours alone with The Last Supper
  • Why the team took a chance on a vocal ensemble in the score

CHAPTERS

0:00 Sarah Burns, David McMahon

8:18 Who Was Leonardo da Vinci?

17:35 Telling a Story Without Footage

23:01 Too Many Talking Heads?

28:42 Inventing a Visual Language

34:05 A Rule Breaker's Private Life

37:55 A Year Living in Italy

40:21 Filming The Last Supper

46:32 Caroline Shaw's Score and Narration

53:33 Mona Lisa After Hours

56:14 DocuView Deja View Picks

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

How did Ken Burns make a Leonardo da Vinci documentary with no footage?

Co-director Sarah Burns says there was no footage, no photographs and only a few paintings, so the team changed its style. Split screens put three things side by side: what Leonardo saw in nature, what he drew on the page and his other work. Co-director David McMahon adds that animation helped show what Leonardo was imagining, like his theory that swirling blood helps heart valves open and close, which took 450 years to prove.

Who directed the PBS Leonardo da Vinci documentary?

LEONARDO da VINCI was directed by Ken Burns, Sarah Burns and David McMahon. Sarah and David wrote it, and the three of them produced it with their colleague Tim McAleer. It aired on PBS November 18 and 19, 2024, in two parts and four hours. Sarah says she and David moved to Italy for a year for the filming, and the team worked out the story together in the edit room.

What do Leonardo da Vinci's notebooks reveal about him?

David McMahon says more than 6,000 pages of Leonardo's notebooks survive, and they are where you can get inside his head. He was not a diarist, so they say little about his feelings. Instead they hold his thinking: studies, proofs and even grocery lists. David thinks Leonardo meant them for publication, for young artists and future scientists, but none of it was published in his lifetime.

How long can you see The Last Supper?

About 15 minutes, in a small group. David McMahon describes the visit: you enter a chamber, the door closes behind you, and only then does the next door open into the old monastery dining hall where the painting is. Sarah Burns says her own 15-minute visit went by incredibly quickly. For the film, David says it took 18 months to get permission, and the crew had three hours to shoot it.

Who composed the music for Ken Burns's Leonardo da Vinci?

Caroline Shaw wrote the score. David McMahon says the team didn't want period music, and at first worried that the voices of the vocal ensemble Roomful of Teeth would fight the dialogue. Instead it made Leonardo feel more human. Shaw worked with a vocal band, a string quartet and a percussion ensemble, and scored the entire film.

DOCUVIEW DEJA VIEW PICKS

  • When We Were Kings (1996), directed by Leon Gast. Sarah's pick, about the run-up to the 1974 fight between Muhammad Ali and George Foreman. She and David watched it while making their Muhammad Ali film.
  • How to Survive a Plague (2012), by David France. David's pick, about how ACT UP used civil disobedience to push for AIDS treatment, built from found footage and VHS tapes of meetings.

See every guest pick on the DocuView Deja View page.

SPONSORED BY ARTILLERY SPORTS

Artillery Sports sells quality sports equipment and uses a portion of its profits to help care for our nation's veterans. Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your first order at artillerysports.com.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen on your favorite app: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT

Documentary First: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUESTS

Sarah Burns is the author of The Central Park Five: A Chronicle of a City Wilding (Knopf, 2011). With David McMahon and Ken Burns she produced, wrote and directed The Central Park Five, which premiered at Cannes in 2012, was named Best Non-Fiction Film of 2012 by the New York Film Critics Circle and won a 2013 Peabody Award. With David and Ken she also made Jackie Robinson (PBS, 2016; Emmy nomination for writing, WGA Award), East Lake Meadows: A Public Housing Story (2020), Muhammad Ali (PBS, 2021; WGA nomination) and LEONARDO da VINCI (PBS, 2024). She was raised in Walpole, New Hampshire, and graduated from Yale with a degree in American Studies. Sarah's bio

David McMahon first worked with Ken Burns in 1999, on Jazz, and is Sarah's co-director on every film above. Raised in Clarence, New York, he graduated from the University of Michigan. He and Sarah are married and live in Brooklyn with their children. David's bio

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

]]>f1c61a70-7933-44a2-84f2-2ca57bd86183Mon, 18 Nov 2024 21:26:00 -060059:23falsefull239239Episode 238 | Documenting a Viral Country Music TikTok Trend, “Fancy Like Walter Hayes”Episode 238 | Documenting a Viral Country Music TikTok Trend, “Fancy Like Walter Hayes”In this insightful episode, host Christian Taylor sits down with French filmmaker Matt Beurois, director of Fancy Like Walker Hayes, to explore the heartwarming story of country music sensation Walker Hayes and his family. Beurois shares his journey into documentary filmmaking and provides a behind-the-scenes look at capturing the Hayes family’s rise to fame.

From the importance of storytelling and the challenges of balancing creativity with business, to the dynamics of trust, family, and fame, this conversation dives deep into the art and heart of filmmaking. Matt discusses the importance of timing in the music and film industry, lessons learned in navigating contracts and distribution, and the unique support system that has guided Walker and his family. Join us for an inspiring look at the power of family, resilience, and passion in pursuing creative dreams.

Links: Trailer for Walker Hayes documentary: https://vimeo.com/996694150/364f20c291?share=copy

Matt’s DocuView Déjà Vu:

Still: A Michael J Fox Movie, 2023, 95 mins, Watch on Apple TV+, IMDB Link: Still: A Michael J. Fox Movie (2023) – IMDb

Timecodes:

00:00 Introduction to Documentary Filmmaking 02:53 Matt Beurois: A French Filmmaker’s Journey 06:03 The Importance of Education and Self-Learning in Filmmaking 09:02 Navigating the Film Industry: Business and Creativity 12:09 The Unique Story of ‘Fancy Like’ and Walker Hayes 17:59 Behind the Scenes: Creating the Documentary 24:01 The Hayes Family: Love, Struggle, and Success 29:30 Crafting the Narrative: The Editing Process 34:05 Family Dynamics on Tour: Balancing Fame and Family 37:27 The Business of Music: Understanding the Industry 46:41 Challenges in Filmmaking: Contracts and Legalities 52:37 DocuView Déjà Vu Recommendations 54:18 What’s coming next for Matt

]]>In this insightful episode, host Christian Taylor sits down with French filmmaker Matt Beurois, director of Fancy Like Walker Hayes, to explore the heartwarming story of country music sensation Walker Hayes and his family. Beurois shares his journey into documentary filmmaking and provides a behind-the-scenes look at capturing the Hayes family’s rise to fame.

From the importance of storytelling and the challenges of balancing creativity with business, to the dynamics of trust, family, and fame, this conversation dives deep into the art and heart of filmmaking. Matt discusses the importance of timing in the music and film industry, lessons learned in navigating contracts and distribution, and the unique support system that has guided Walker and his family. Join us for an inspiring look at the power of family, resilience, and passion in pursuing creative dreams.

Links: Trailer for Walker Hayes documentary: https://vimeo.com/996694150/364f20c291?share=copy

Matt’s DocuView Déjà Vu:

Still: A Michael J Fox Movie, 2023, 95 mins, Watch on Apple TV+, IMDB Link: Still: A Michael J. Fox Movie (2023) – IMDb

Timecodes:

00:00 Introduction to Documentary Filmmaking 02:53 Matt Beurois: A French Filmmaker’s Journey 06:03 The Importance of Education and Self-Learning in Filmmaking 09:02 Navigating the Film Industry: Business and Creativity 12:09 The Unique Story of ‘Fancy Like’ and Walker Hayes 17:59 Behind the Scenes: Creating the Documentary 24:01 The Hayes Family: Love, Struggle, and Success 29:30 Crafting the Narrative: The Editing Process 34:05 Family Dynamics on Tour: Balancing Fame and Family 37:27 The Business of Music: Understanding the Industry 46:41 Challenges in Filmmaking: Contracts and Legalities 52:37 DocuView Déjà Vu Recommendations 54:18 What’s coming next for Matt

]]>d5327f53-aac3-41ca-b713-558947d5793bThu, 14 Nov 2024 07:38:00 -060059:19falsefull238238Episode 237 | Making a Hit Mini TV Series feat. Evan WiseEpisode 237 | Making a Hit Mini TV Series feat. Evan WiseIn this episode, host Christian Taylor sits down with Emmy-nominated editor and producer Evan Wise, ACE, to delve into his career journey and unique approach to documentary filmmaking. Evan shares his path from a rebellious skate punk in New Jersey to becoming a highly respected editor, working on acclaimed series like HBO’s The Circus and Q: Into the Storm. The conversation turns to his latest project, Chimp Crazy, a four-part HBO series that explores the complex world of primates.

Evan offers a behind-the-scenes look at Chimp Crazy, discussing the creative and technical challenges of editing a real-time documentary. He emphasizes the importance of finding a compelling story arc, balancing multiple perspectives, and allowing the audience to interpret the narrative independently. He also shares his unique workflow, which involves producing, writing, and editing simultaneously—an approach that fosters flexibility and creativity.

Throughout the episode, Evan provides valuable insights and practical advice for aspiring editors. He highlights essential skills like negotiation, teamwork, and self-advocacy, offering listeners an inside view of the collaborative and often intense world of documentary editing.

DocuView Dèjà Vu


Takeaways

  • Hard work and enthusiasm are key for advancing in documentary filmmaking.
  • Building relationships with experienced editors and filmmakers is invaluable for growth.
  • Film school offers resources but isn’t necessary for success in the industry.
  • Starting in entry-level roles, like logger or assistant editor, can lead to an editing career.
  • High-profile projects and recognition, like Emmy nominations, can open new doors.
  • Creating a series involves tailoring the format, episode length, and story to the footage available.
  • Presenting multiple perspectives lets the audience form their own opinions.
  • Filming, writing, and editing at the same time allows for creative, flexible storytelling.
  • Creative problem-solving makes scenes more engaging and visually dynamic.
  • Negotiation skills and self-advocacy are crucial for an editor's success.
  • Building positive relationships and being kind to others is essential in the editing world.

Timecodes:

00:00 Introduction and Housekeeping 03:21 Evan Wise's Journey in Documentary Filmmaking 07:52 The Importance of Hard Work and Building Relationships 14:30 The Role of Loggers and Assistant Editors 18:14 Turning Points in Evan Wise's Career 21:40 Creating 'Chimp Crazy' 25:16 Discovering the Story 28:26 Filming, Writing, and Editing Simultaneously 31:35 Revealing Unseen Processes 37:32 Editors as Writers 40:05 The Importance of Being Nice 45:50 DocuView Dèjà Vu

]]>In this episode, host Christian Taylor sits down with Emmy-nominated editor and producer Evan Wise, ACE, to delve into his career journey and unique approach to documentary filmmaking. Evan shares his path from a rebellious skate punk in New Jersey to becoming a highly respected editor, working on acclaimed series like HBO’s The Circus and Q: Into the Storm. The conversation turns to his latest project, Chimp Crazy, a four-part HBO series that explores the complex world of primates.

Evan offers a behind-the-scenes look at Chimp Crazy, discussing the creative and technical challenges of editing a real-time documentary. He emphasizes the importance of finding a compelling story arc, balancing multiple perspectives, and allowing the audience to interpret the narrative independently. He also shares his unique workflow, which involves producing, writing, and editing simultaneously—an approach that fosters flexibility and creativity.

Throughout the episode, Evan provides valuable insights and practical advice for aspiring editors. He highlights essential skills like negotiation, teamwork, and self-advocacy, offering listeners an inside view of the collaborative and often intense world of documentary editing.

DocuView Dèjà Vu


Takeaways

  • Hard work and enthusiasm are key for advancing in documentary filmmaking.
  • Building relationships with experienced editors and filmmakers is invaluable for growth.
  • Film school offers resources but isn’t necessary for success in the industry.
  • Starting in entry-level roles, like logger or assistant editor, can lead to an editing career.
  • High-profile projects and recognition, like Emmy nominations, can open new doors.
  • Creating a series involves tailoring the format, episode length, and story to the footage available.
  • Presenting multiple perspectives lets the audience form their own opinions.
  • Filming, writing, and editing at the same time allows for creative, flexible storytelling.
  • Creative problem-solving makes scenes more engaging and visually dynamic.
  • Negotiation skills and self-advocacy are crucial for an editor's success.
  • Building positive relationships and being kind to others is essential in the editing world.

Timecodes:

00:00 Introduction and Housekeeping 03:21 Evan Wise's Journey in Documentary Filmmaking 07:52 The Importance of Hard Work and Building Relationships 14:30 The Role of Loggers and Assistant Editors 18:14 Turning Points in Evan Wise's Career 21:40 Creating 'Chimp Crazy' 25:16 Discovering the Story 28:26 Filming, Writing, and Editing Simultaneously 31:35 Revealing Unseen Processes 37:32 Editors as Writers 40:05 The Importance of Being Nice 45:50 DocuView Dèjà Vu

]]>fb2f1d0f-8f44-4501-8d4b-2cbd449ff099Wed, 06 Nov 2024 10:29:00 -060049:22falsefull237237Episode 236 | Conversations with Christian, Part 2 (Free Patreon Episode)Episode 236 | Conversations with Christian, Part 2 (Free Patreon Episode)Here is a taste of our new series called Conversation With Christian that is available on Patreon.

In this episode, Christian interviews her eldest son, the one with whom her entire film adventure began. In 2011 he joined the military and that life decision had big implications for the whole family. They discuss his military journey and their shared experiences during the COVID-19 pandemic.

They discuss themes of trust, perseverance, and the importance of community. Christian’s son shares his passion for the military and his desire to serve as a warfighter. They also touch on the challenges and rewards of running a business together.

Overall, the conversation highlights the lessons learned and the growth that comes from facing difficult circumstances. Support us on Patreon and get Documentary First exclusive content like this episode for $5+ a month. Patreon.com/DocumentaryFirst

Takeaways

  • Trust in God's provision and have faith in His plan, even in difficult times.
  • Challenges and setbacks can lead to unexpected opportunities and growth.
  • Building a strong community and culture is essential for personal and professional development.
  • Having a mentor or someone with experience can provide valuable guidance and support.
  • Passion and dedication are key to pursuing a fulfilling career or vocation.

]]>Here is a taste of our new series called Conversation With Christian that is available on Patreon.

In this episode, Christian interviews her eldest son, the one with whom her entire film adventure began. In 2011 he joined the military and that life decision had big implications for the whole family. They discuss his military journey and their shared experiences during the COVID-19 pandemic.

They discuss themes of trust, perseverance, and the importance of community. Christian’s son shares his passion for the military and his desire to serve as a warfighter. They also touch on the challenges and rewards of running a business together.

Overall, the conversation highlights the lessons learned and the growth that comes from facing difficult circumstances. Support us on Patreon and get Documentary First exclusive content like this episode for $5+ a month. Patreon.com/DocumentaryFirst

Takeaways

  • Trust in God's provision and have faith in His plan, even in difficult times.
  • Challenges and setbacks can lead to unexpected opportunities and growth.
  • Building a strong community and culture is essential for personal and professional development.
  • Having a mentor or someone with experience can provide valuable guidance and support.
  • Passion and dedication are key to pursuing a fulfilling career or vocation.

]]>b9c3e828-2ca0-4dca-b995-d77de03ece6eFri, 25 Oct 2024 07:36:00 -050022:20falsefull236236Episode 235 | The Girl Who Wore Freedom Dream Team - Part 3Episode 235 | The Girl Who Wore Freedom Dream Team - Part 3In this insightful episode of the Documentary First Podcast, Christian Taylor, David Paterson, and Todd Anderson delve into the data and hard-earned lessons from the theatrical release of The Girl Who Wore Freedom.

They explore the surprising factors that influenced ticket sales, including screening schedules, ticket pricing, and the often overlooked role of theater advertising—or lack thereof. The team shares their experiences with the logistical hurdles of distributing physical drives and the critical importance of targeted outreach to specific audiences.

Reflecting on their journey, the hosts candidly discuss the missteps and lessons learned, underscoring the necessity of strategic planning, research, and building strong partnerships in independent film distribution. This episode is a must-listen for anyone navigating the complex world of documentary filmmaking and theatrical releases.

No DocuView Dèjà Vu this episode

Timecodes 00:00 Introduction and Script Confusion 04:21 Theatrical Release Details 07:46 The Impact of Matinee Showings 09:01 Personal Interruption: Wedding Announcement 12:50 Return to Discussion: Advertising and Theater Cooperation 15:52 Personal Interruption: Wedding Update 17:15 Return to Discussion: Naivete and Theater Advertising 2115 The Importance of Deliverables and Advertising 22:13 The Impact of Deliverables on Profit 23:24 The Challenges of Physical Distribution 26:22 The Role of DCP Suppliers in Distribution 27:36 The Importance of Organization and Tracking 28:32 Theaters' Lack of Advertising and Responsibility 29:13 The Importance of Targeted Outreach 30:07 The Impact of Ticket Prices on Profit 31:22 The Success of Film Festival Screenings 32:39 The Importance of Local Outreach and Partnerships 35:36 The Importance of Research and Targeting 38:09 The Success of In-Person Screenings 42:00 Closing Remarks and Future Plans

]]>In this insightful episode of the Documentary First Podcast, Christian Taylor, David Paterson, and Todd Anderson delve into the data and hard-earned lessons from the theatrical release of The Girl Who Wore Freedom.

They explore the surprising factors that influenced ticket sales, including screening schedules, ticket pricing, and the often overlooked role of theater advertising—or lack thereof. The team shares their experiences with the logistical hurdles of distributing physical drives and the critical importance of targeted outreach to specific audiences.

Reflecting on their journey, the hosts candidly discuss the missteps and lessons learned, underscoring the necessity of strategic planning, research, and building strong partnerships in independent film distribution. This episode is a must-listen for anyone navigating the complex world of documentary filmmaking and theatrical releases.

No DocuView Dèjà Vu this episode

Timecodes 00:00 Introduction and Script Confusion 04:21 Theatrical Release Details 07:46 The Impact of Matinee Showings 09:01 Personal Interruption: Wedding Announcement 12:50 Return to Discussion: Advertising and Theater Cooperation 15:52 Personal Interruption: Wedding Update 17:15 Return to Discussion: Naivete and Theater Advertising 2115 The Importance of Deliverables and Advertising 22:13 The Impact of Deliverables on Profit 23:24 The Challenges of Physical Distribution 26:22 The Role of DCP Suppliers in Distribution 27:36 The Importance of Organization and Tracking 28:32 Theaters' Lack of Advertising and Responsibility 29:13 The Importance of Targeted Outreach 30:07 The Impact of Ticket Prices on Profit 31:22 The Success of Film Festival Screenings 32:39 The Importance of Local Outreach and Partnerships 35:36 The Importance of Research and Targeting 38:09 The Success of In-Person Screenings 42:00 Closing Remarks and Future Plans

]]>cf9b1fe9-d42e-43b3-88f3-1b5c0adae8acThu, 10 Oct 2024 00:40:00 -050033:46falsefull235235Why Festival Laurels Won't Sell Your Film, Part 2Why Festival Laurels Won't Sell Your Film, Part 2How did a pizza and a talk about favorite movies turn into one of Joe Amodei's closest friendships?

These are the film industry secrets Christian kept pushing Joe and Tim to share, the things filmmakers usually learn too late. Festival laurels feel wonderful, but they won't sell your film to a streamer. And one early IMDb entry can make a new film look years old. Part 1: listen to Part 1

In Episode 234, Christian continues her conversation with Joe Amodei, founder of Virgil Films and Entertainment, and co-president Tim Maggiani. Virgil distributes Christian's film The Girl Who Wore Freedom. They aren't paying to be here; this episode is sponsored by Artillery Sports.

Joe has stood on festival stages for standing ovations, and he still tells filmmakers the truth: streamers buy for fit. Christian learned the IMDb lesson the hard way, when theaters looked up her film and saw a festival date years older than its release. Tim walks through how IMDb, Amazon, Apple and Tubi each decide what viewers see and how money flows back. Then Christian asks Joe to remember Morgan Spurlock, and he tells the story of a friendship that started over pizza in New York and lasted until the end.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • Why festival laurels help you find a distributor but won't make a streamer buy
  • How IMDb feeds Amazon's pages, and why a festival date can become your release date
  • What a 90 day new release window is, and why buyers check a film's age on IMDb first
  • How streamer and studio premieres have crowded indie films out of the big festivals
  • The Sundance night Joe watched studio reps surround the producer of Napoleon Dynamite
  • Why Christian's own Amazon page listed a friend with ten seconds of voiceover as the star
  • How Amazon's store runs on sales while Apple's has people choosing what to feature
  • Why AVOD services like Tubi now reach a separate audience worth having
  • How rental splits and CPM ad revenue reach the filmmaker
  • Joe's memories of Morgan Spurlock, from their first pizza to their last visit

Chapters

0:00 Secrets Filmmakers Should Know

2:25 What Laurels Can't Buy

6:01 IMDb's Release Date Trap

11:14 The 90 Day Window

14:26 Big Festivals, Fewer Doors

17:45 Napoleon Dynamite at Sundance

20:44 Who Gets Top Billing?

25:31 Algorithms Versus Curators

30:46 Tubi and AVOD Audiences

36:00 How Revenue Splits Work

40:35 Remembering Morgan Spurlock

Frequently Asked Questions

Do film festival laurels help sell a film to streamers?

Not much, according to Joe Amodei of Virgil Films. He told Documentary First in 2024 that festival wins can help a filmmaker get a distributor to watch the film, but a streamer buys a film because it fits what it's looking for at that moment. Christian added that her own festival run brought an audience and connections but cost a lot of money and aged the film a year, so each filmmaker has to weigh it.

How does IMDb affect a film's release date?

Tim Maggiani of Virgil Films told Documentary First in 2024 that IMDb is owned by Amazon and feeds Amazon's store pages. When a festival premiere goes up on IMDb, that date can become the film's first release date, so a 2024 release can show as 2022. That can cost a film its new release status with buyers. The fix discussed: list the film as in post-production until it's distributed.

Is it bad to put a documentary on Tubi or other free ad-supported services?

Not anymore. Tim Maggiani told Documentary First in 2024 that AVOD viewers are a separate, often younger audience who may never rent, buy or subscribe, so a film there can find new viewers instead of stealing sales. Joe Amodei added that as ad-supported services grew, the revenue grew too, and he sees nothing wrong with releasing on AVOD and transactional platforms the same day.

How do filmmakers get paid from rentals and ad-supported streaming?

Tim Maggiani of Virgil Films explained it on Documentary First in 2024. For rentals, the platform keeps roughly 30 to 40 percent and reports the rest to the distributor, which takes its fee and pays the filmmaker. Ad-supported services work on CPM, a rate per thousand ad views. In his example, if an advertiser pays Tubi $10, Tubi keeps half and passes $5 on for that film.

DocuView Deja View Pick

Super Size Me: Christian chose it as a tribute, and Joe remembers his friend, director Morgan Spurlock.

Sponsored by Artillery Sports

artillerysports.com. Use code DocFirst for 10% off.

Listen and Follow

Follow Documentary First wherever you listen: https://pod.fo/e/4a7fd1

Support the Show

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect

All social platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

About the Guests

Joe Amodei is the founder of Virgil Films and Entertainment. He took on Super Size Me when his company was new and bigger companies wouldn't, and its director, Morgan Spurlock, became one of his closest friends.

Tim Maggiani is co-president of Virgil Films and Entertainment. He started as an intern in 2004 and built the company's digital distribution business, and today handles pitch materials, delivery and promotions.

About Virgil Films and Entertainment

Virgil Films and Entertainment is an independent film distributor led by Joe Amodei. Its releases include Super Size Me, Restrepo, Forks Over Knives and I Am Chris Farley. Virgil distributes Christian's film The Girl Who Wore Freedom. virgilfilms.com

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned


]]>How did a pizza and a talk about favorite movies turn into one of Joe Amodei's closest friendships?

These are the film industry secrets Christian kept pushing Joe and Tim to share, the things filmmakers usually learn too late. Festival laurels feel wonderful, but they won't sell your film to a streamer. And one early IMDb entry can make a new film look years old. Part 1: listen to Part 1

In Episode 234, Christian continues her conversation with Joe Amodei, founder of Virgil Films and Entertainment, and co-president Tim Maggiani. Virgil distributes Christian's film The Girl Who Wore Freedom. They aren't paying to be here; this episode is sponsored by Artillery Sports.

Joe has stood on festival stages for standing ovations, and he still tells filmmakers the truth: streamers buy for fit. Christian learned the IMDb lesson the hard way, when theaters looked up her film and saw a festival date years older than its release. Tim walks through how IMDb, Amazon, Apple and Tubi each decide what viewers see and how money flows back. Then Christian asks Joe to remember Morgan Spurlock, and he tells the story of a friendship that started over pizza in New York and lasted until the end.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • Why festival laurels help you find a distributor but won't make a streamer buy
  • How IMDb feeds Amazon's pages, and why a festival date can become your release date
  • What a 90 day new release window is, and why buyers check a film's age on IMDb first
  • How streamer and studio premieres have crowded indie films out of the big festivals
  • The Sundance night Joe watched studio reps surround the producer of Napoleon Dynamite
  • Why Christian's own Amazon page listed a friend with ten seconds of voiceover as the star
  • How Amazon's store runs on sales while Apple's has people choosing what to feature
  • Why AVOD services like Tubi now reach a separate audience worth having
  • How rental splits and CPM ad revenue reach the filmmaker
  • Joe's memories of Morgan Spurlock, from their first pizza to their last visit

Chapters

0:00 Secrets Filmmakers Should Know

2:25 What Laurels Can't Buy

6:01 IMDb's Release Date Trap

11:14 The 90 Day Window

14:26 Big Festivals, Fewer Doors

17:45 Napoleon Dynamite at Sundance

20:44 Who Gets Top Billing?

25:31 Algorithms Versus Curators

30:46 Tubi and AVOD Audiences

36:00 How Revenue Splits Work

40:35 Remembering Morgan Spurlock

Frequently Asked Questions

Do film festival laurels help sell a film to streamers?

Not much, according to Joe Amodei of Virgil Films. He told Documentary First in 2024 that festival wins can help a filmmaker get a distributor to watch the film, but a streamer buys a film because it fits what it's looking for at that moment. Christian added that her own festival run brought an audience and connections but cost a lot of money and aged the film a year, so each filmmaker has to weigh it.

How does IMDb affect a film's release date?

Tim Maggiani of Virgil Films told Documentary First in 2024 that IMDb is owned by Amazon and feeds Amazon's store pages. When a festival premiere goes up on IMDb, that date can become the film's first release date, so a 2024 release can show as 2022. That can cost a film its new release status with buyers. The fix discussed: list the film as in post-production until it's distributed.

Is it bad to put a documentary on Tubi or other free ad-supported services?

Not anymore. Tim Maggiani told Documentary First in 2024 that AVOD viewers are a separate, often younger audience who may never rent, buy or subscribe, so a film there can find new viewers instead of stealing sales. Joe Amodei added that as ad-supported services grew, the revenue grew too, and he sees nothing wrong with releasing on AVOD and transactional platforms the same day.

How do filmmakers get paid from rentals and ad-supported streaming?

Tim Maggiani of Virgil Films explained it on Documentary First in 2024. For rentals, the platform keeps roughly 30 to 40 percent and reports the rest to the distributor, which takes its fee and pays the filmmaker. Ad-supported services work on CPM, a rate per thousand ad views. In his example, if an advertiser pays Tubi $10, Tubi keeps half and passes $5 on for that film.

DocuView Deja View Pick

Super Size Me: Christian chose it as a tribute, and Joe remembers his friend, director Morgan Spurlock.

Sponsored by Artillery Sports

artillerysports.com. Use code DocFirst for 10% off.

Listen and Follow

Follow Documentary First wherever you listen: https://pod.fo/e/4a7fd1

Support the Show

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect

All social platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

About the Guests

Joe Amodei is the founder of Virgil Films and Entertainment. He took on Super Size Me when his company was new and bigger companies wouldn't, and its director, Morgan Spurlock, became one of his closest friends.

Tim Maggiani is co-president of Virgil Films and Entertainment. He started as an intern in 2004 and built the company's digital distribution business, and today handles pitch materials, delivery and promotions.

About Virgil Films and Entertainment

Virgil Films and Entertainment is an independent film distributor led by Joe Amodei. Its releases include Super Size Me, Restrepo, Forks Over Knives and I Am Chris Farley. Virgil distributes Christian's film The Girl Who Wore Freedom. virgilfilms.com

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned


]]>9b5ca551-c978-4050-9851-7c3e35699234Thu, 26 Sep 2024 07:10:00 -050049:25falsefull234234Who Champions Your Film After the Deal? Part 1Who Champions Your Film After the Deal? Part 1What does it take to go from fixing sewing machines to sitting across from buyers at Netflix?

Film distribution is a people business, and this conversation proves it. Long before streaming, Joe Amodei fell in love with a store full of VHS tapes. Decades later, his first acquisition as an independent distributor was Super Size Me. Part 2: listen to Part 2

In Episode 233, Christian sits down with Joe Amodei, founder of Virgil Films and Entertainment, and his partner Tim Maggiani, the company's co-president, for the first of two conversations. Virgil distributes Christian's film The Girl Who Wore Freedom. They aren't paying to be here; this episode is sponsored by Artillery Sports.

Christian opens by saying something filmmakers rarely say: she trusts her distributor. Then the two of them show why. Joe still walks into rooms at the big streamers and pitches each film himself. Tim takes the fear out of delivery and keeps finding promotions for films in their third and fourth years. And Christian and Joe talk through why Virgil keeps its roster small. As Joe puts it, "we do not make money unless the filmmaker is making money."

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How Joe went from repairing sewing machines in Philadelphia to district manager of an 18-store video chain
  • How Super Size Me, the first film Joe acquired, put his company on the map
  • How Tim Maggiani turned a 2004 internship into Virgil's digital business
  • Why your distributor should go direct to each platform, and what a middleman can cost you
  • What Joe says when he pitches a film to a streaming buyer
  • How Tim builds a pitch deck for each platform
  • What delivery means, from ProRes files to platform specs, and what can be negotiated
  • Why Virgil keeps promoting films for years and looks for evergreen titles
  • Why key art has to read at thumbnail size
  • Why Virgil keeps its roster small on purpose

Chapters

0:00 A Distributor Worth Trusting

3:02 Joe's Video Store Beginnings

8:26 Tim's Digital Shift

18:35 Pitching Buyers in Person

23:25 Decks, Delivery, Contracts

31:25 Selling Evergreen Titles

34:38 Standing Out Without Billboards

38:06 Forks Over Knives Dinner

42:48 Small Roster by Choice

46:50 DocuView Deja View Picks

Frequently Asked Questions

How do I know if a film distributor has real relationships with the platforms?

Ask whether they deal with each platform directly. Joe Amodei of Virgil Films told Documentary First in 2024 that a lot of distributors won't tell you they lack those relationships. When a distributor has to route your film through another company to reach a platform, the filmmaker can end up paying a double or even triple fee. His advice is to confirm your distributor can go straight to the accounts.

What is film delivery, and why does it scare filmmakers?

Delivery is the set of files and materials a distributor needs to put your film on each platform. Tim Maggiani of Virgil Films told Documentary First in 2024 that it usually starts with an Apple ProRes mezzanine file, which his team transcodes to each platform's specs. He said the list looks daunting on paper, but in practice it's simpler than it reads, and some requirements can be negotiated.

How do independent films keep selling years after release?

Through steady promotion. Joe Amodei told Documentary First in 2024 that Virgil Films keeps pitching each title to platforms in years two, three and four, often grouping films into price drops such as a 99 cent week. Tim Maggiani said one of the important decisions Virgil makes in acquiring a film is whether it's evergreen, because you want a film that keeps working, not one with a short window.

What does a pitch to a streaming buyer sound like?

Joe Amodei of Virgil Films acted one out on Documentary First in 2024, using The Girl Who Wore Freedom. He tells the buyer the story and why it will move them, then covers the street date, the filmmaker and her other projects. Sometimes he shows the trailer, depending on the room. He calls it a classic pitch, and said he still makes it face to face with buyers at the big streamers.

DocuView Deja View Picks

Tim Maggiani: Just One Mile (2023), about a one-mile loop race that keeps going until one runner is left standing.

Joe Amodei: 7 Yards: The Chris Norton Story, about a college football player paralyzed from the neck down and the life he built after.

Sponsored by Artillery Sports

artillerysports.com. Use code DocFirst for 10% off.

Listen and Follow

Follow Documentary First wherever you listen: https://pod.fo/e/4a7fd2

Support the Show

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect

All social platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

About the Guests

Joe Amodei is the founder of Virgil Films and Entertainment. He started behind the counter of a Philadelphia video store, worked at Turner for five years and later ran an independent film division at USA, then co-founded the company that acquired Super Size Me as its first film. That company was later sold to him personally and renamed Virgil Films.

Tim Maggiani is co-president of Virgil Films and Entertainment. He joined as an intern in New York in 2004, worked in viral marketing, and from around 2006 built the company's digital distribution business. He also handles pitch materials, delivery and ongoing promotions.

About Virgil Films and Entertainment

Virgil Films and Entertainment is an independent film distributor led by Joe Amodei. Its releases include Super Size Me, Restrepo, Forks Over Knives and I Am Chris Farley. Virgil distributes Christian's film The Girl Who Wore Freedom. virgilfilms.com

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned


]]>What does it take to go from fixing sewing machines to sitting across from buyers at Netflix?

Film distribution is a people business, and this conversation proves it. Long before streaming, Joe Amodei fell in love with a store full of VHS tapes. Decades later, his first acquisition as an independent distributor was Super Size Me. Part 2: listen to Part 2

In Episode 233, Christian sits down with Joe Amodei, founder of Virgil Films and Entertainment, and his partner Tim Maggiani, the company's co-president, for the first of two conversations. Virgil distributes Christian's film The Girl Who Wore Freedom. They aren't paying to be here; this episode is sponsored by Artillery Sports.

Christian opens by saying something filmmakers rarely say: she trusts her distributor. Then the two of them show why. Joe still walks into rooms at the big streamers and pitches each film himself. Tim takes the fear out of delivery and keeps finding promotions for films in their third and fourth years. And Christian and Joe talk through why Virgil keeps its roster small. As Joe puts it, "we do not make money unless the filmmaker is making money."

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How Joe went from repairing sewing machines in Philadelphia to district manager of an 18-store video chain
  • How Super Size Me, the first film Joe acquired, put his company on the map
  • How Tim Maggiani turned a 2004 internship into Virgil's digital business
  • Why your distributor should go direct to each platform, and what a middleman can cost you
  • What Joe says when he pitches a film to a streaming buyer
  • How Tim builds a pitch deck for each platform
  • What delivery means, from ProRes files to platform specs, and what can be negotiated
  • Why Virgil keeps promoting films for years and looks for evergreen titles
  • Why key art has to read at thumbnail size
  • Why Virgil keeps its roster small on purpose

Chapters

0:00 A Distributor Worth Trusting

3:02 Joe's Video Store Beginnings

8:26 Tim's Digital Shift

18:35 Pitching Buyers in Person

23:25 Decks, Delivery, Contracts

31:25 Selling Evergreen Titles

34:38 Standing Out Without Billboards

38:06 Forks Over Knives Dinner

42:48 Small Roster by Choice

46:50 DocuView Deja View Picks

Frequently Asked Questions

How do I know if a film distributor has real relationships with the platforms?

Ask whether they deal with each platform directly. Joe Amodei of Virgil Films told Documentary First in 2024 that a lot of distributors won't tell you they lack those relationships. When a distributor has to route your film through another company to reach a platform, the filmmaker can end up paying a double or even triple fee. His advice is to confirm your distributor can go straight to the accounts.

What is film delivery, and why does it scare filmmakers?

Delivery is the set of files and materials a distributor needs to put your film on each platform. Tim Maggiani of Virgil Films told Documentary First in 2024 that it usually starts with an Apple ProRes mezzanine file, which his team transcodes to each platform's specs. He said the list looks daunting on paper, but in practice it's simpler than it reads, and some requirements can be negotiated.

How do independent films keep selling years after release?

Through steady promotion. Joe Amodei told Documentary First in 2024 that Virgil Films keeps pitching each title to platforms in years two, three and four, often grouping films into price drops such as a 99 cent week. Tim Maggiani said one of the important decisions Virgil makes in acquiring a film is whether it's evergreen, because you want a film that keeps working, not one with a short window.

What does a pitch to a streaming buyer sound like?

Joe Amodei of Virgil Films acted one out on Documentary First in 2024, using The Girl Who Wore Freedom. He tells the buyer the story and why it will move them, then covers the street date, the filmmaker and her other projects. Sometimes he shows the trailer, depending on the room. He calls it a classic pitch, and said he still makes it face to face with buyers at the big streamers.

DocuView Deja View Picks

Tim Maggiani: Just One Mile (2023), about a one-mile loop race that keeps going until one runner is left standing.

Joe Amodei: 7 Yards: The Chris Norton Story, about a college football player paralyzed from the neck down and the life he built after.

Sponsored by Artillery Sports

artillerysports.com. Use code DocFirst for 10% off.

Listen and Follow

Follow Documentary First wherever you listen: https://pod.fo/e/4a7fd2

Support the Show

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect

All social platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

About the Guests

Joe Amodei is the founder of Virgil Films and Entertainment. He started behind the counter of a Philadelphia video store, worked at Turner for five years and later ran an independent film division at USA, then co-founded the company that acquired Super Size Me as its first film. That company was later sold to him personally and renamed Virgil Films.

Tim Maggiani is co-president of Virgil Films and Entertainment. He joined as an intern in New York in 2004, worked in viral marketing, and from around 2006 built the company's digital distribution business. He also handles pitch materials, delivery and ongoing promotions.

About Virgil Films and Entertainment

Virgil Films and Entertainment is an independent film distributor led by Joe Amodei. Its releases include Super Size Me, Restrepo, Forks Over Knives and I Am Chris Farley. Virgil distributes Christian's film The Girl Who Wore Freedom. virgilfilms.com

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned


]]>b9b830b4-6bed-4a2c-a140-50dab0dee5e7Thu, 12 Sep 2024 16:03:00 -050051:33falsefull233233To Dye For: Making a Documentary About Synthetic DyesTo Dye For: Making a Documentary About Synthetic DyesWhat happens when two parents who have never made a film decide the world needs to see what changed their child's life?

Whitney and Brandon Cawood took synthetic food dyes out of their child's diet and watched the change with their own eyes. Whitney says it was so dramatic she would have struggled to believe it if another parent had told her the same story. She wanted to understand the science, so she asked the researchers herself, and Brandon, a commercial photographer and videographer, agreed to film it. The result is To Dye For: The Documentary, made by a husband-and-wife crew of two.

In Episode 232, Christian Taylor sits down with Whitney and Brandon Cawood, the first-time filmmakers behind To Dye For. Whitney is a former teacher and digital marketer who set up every interview and asked the questions on camera. Brandon is a former touring musician who was working as a third-shift security guard, doing photography on the side, when Whitney met him; his movie-poster-style photo series of first responders, Not All Wear Capes, went viral. He shot, edited and animated the film and composed its score.

They talk about choosing to put their own family on screen, borrowing a vlog style from the YouTube channel Yes Theory to make heavy science easy to watch, and casting friends and family for the reenactments. They explain how a dye-free Facebook group Whitney started grew to about 570,000 members in two years, and how its audience, almost all women aged 24 to 44, showed them exactly who the film was for. They also talk about faith, the strain of a two-person production on a young family, and why test screenings changed the film. Christian, who admits she came in skeptical, tells them, "I think this is an incredibly important film."

WATCH THE FILM

To Dye For: The Documentary is available to rent on Kinema: https://kinema.com/films/to-dye-for-the-documentary-ks9yoj

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How one family's experience with synthetic dyes became a documentary
  • How a married couple split the work on a two-person crew
  • How a viral photo series turned Brandon into a working photographer
  • Why the Cawoods decided to put their own family in the film
  • How a vlog style can make a science documentary easy to watch
  • How Brandon made the animation and the score himself on a tight budget
  • How a Facebook group of about 570,000 members became the film's audience
  • How the Cawoods paid for the film with savings, crowdfunding and a grant
  • Why test screenings made To Dye For a better film
  • How Kinema and Splice help independent filmmakers

CHAPTERS

0:00 When Food Dye Changed Their Child's Life

5:48 Who Does What on a Two-Person Crew

11:17 From Security Guard to Photographer

16:45 Should You Be in Your Own Documentary?

22:36 A Vlog Style Inspired by Yes Theory

27:43 Reenactments, Animation and Music

31:14 Faith and Psalm 107

37:40 Building an Audience Before Release

43:20 Budget, Grants and Test Screenings

50:21 Kinema, Splice and Distribution Plans

55:30 Not So Pretty and Other Picks

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What is To Dye For: The Documentary about?

To Dye For: The Documentary follows Whitney and Brandon Cawood after they removed synthetic food dyes from their child's diet and saw a dramatic change. The film mixes the family's own story, told in a vlog style, with interviews with dye researchers and with other families, and uses reenactments to bring those families' stories to the screen.

Who made To Dye For?

To Dye For was made by Whitney and Brandon Cawood, a married couple making their first documentary. Whitney set up the interviews, asked the questions and led the marketing. Brandon, a commercial photographer and videographer, shot, edited and animated the film and composed its score, building the music from loops in Splice.

How do you make a documentary with a two-person crew and a small budget?

The Cawoods did nearly every job themselves, including animation, music and casting. They say they put in about $20,000 of their own money, ran two crowdfunding campaigns and received a small local grant. They say the film would have cost about $250,000 on paper if they had paid for all the work they did themselves.

How can a documentary build an audience before it is released?

Whitney Cawood started a Facebook group about living dye-free that grew to about 570,000 members in two years, and offered free resources in exchange for email sign-ups, building a list of about 150,000. The group's data showed the audience was almost all women aged 24 to 44, which shaped how the Cawoods planned to market and screen the film.

DOCUVIEW DÉJÀ VU PICKS

Whitney's pick:


Brandon's picks:


Christian's picks:


SPONSORED BY ARTILLERY SPORTS

This episode is brought to you by Artillery Sports, which makes durable sports equipment and uses a portion of its profits to help care for the nation's veterans. Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your first order. https://artillerysports.com

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/4a7fd3

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUESTS

Whitney Cawood

Co-director, To Dye For: The Documentary

Whitney Cawood has a degree in education and taught school before leaving teaching to start a family. She has run an e-commerce business with Brandon and worked as a freelance digital marketer.

Brandon Cawood

Co-director, To Dye For: The Documentary

Brandon Cawood is a commercial photographer and videographer who toured in a band in his 20s. His photo series Not All Wear Capes, movie-poster-style portraits of first responders, went viral and launched his photography business.

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>What happens when two parents who have never made a film decide the world needs to see what changed their child's life?

Whitney and Brandon Cawood took synthetic food dyes out of their child's diet and watched the change with their own eyes. Whitney says it was so dramatic she would have struggled to believe it if another parent had told her the same story. She wanted to understand the science, so she asked the researchers herself, and Brandon, a commercial photographer and videographer, agreed to film it. The result is To Dye For: The Documentary, made by a husband-and-wife crew of two.

In Episode 232, Christian Taylor sits down with Whitney and Brandon Cawood, the first-time filmmakers behind To Dye For. Whitney is a former teacher and digital marketer who set up every interview and asked the questions on camera. Brandon is a former touring musician who was working as a third-shift security guard, doing photography on the side, when Whitney met him; his movie-poster-style photo series of first responders, Not All Wear Capes, went viral. He shot, edited and animated the film and composed its score.

They talk about choosing to put their own family on screen, borrowing a vlog style from the YouTube channel Yes Theory to make heavy science easy to watch, and casting friends and family for the reenactments. They explain how a dye-free Facebook group Whitney started grew to about 570,000 members in two years, and how its audience, almost all women aged 24 to 44, showed them exactly who the film was for. They also talk about faith, the strain of a two-person production on a young family, and why test screenings changed the film. Christian, who admits she came in skeptical, tells them, "I think this is an incredibly important film."

WATCH THE FILM

To Dye For: The Documentary is available to rent on Kinema: https://kinema.com/films/to-dye-for-the-documentary-ks9yoj

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How one family's experience with synthetic dyes became a documentary
  • How a married couple split the work on a two-person crew
  • How a viral photo series turned Brandon into a working photographer
  • Why the Cawoods decided to put their own family in the film
  • How a vlog style can make a science documentary easy to watch
  • How Brandon made the animation and the score himself on a tight budget
  • How a Facebook group of about 570,000 members became the film's audience
  • How the Cawoods paid for the film with savings, crowdfunding and a grant
  • Why test screenings made To Dye For a better film
  • How Kinema and Splice help independent filmmakers

CHAPTERS

0:00 When Food Dye Changed Their Child's Life

5:48 Who Does What on a Two-Person Crew

11:17 From Security Guard to Photographer

16:45 Should You Be in Your Own Documentary?

22:36 A Vlog Style Inspired by Yes Theory

27:43 Reenactments, Animation and Music

31:14 Faith and Psalm 107

37:40 Building an Audience Before Release

43:20 Budget, Grants and Test Screenings

50:21 Kinema, Splice and Distribution Plans

55:30 Not So Pretty and Other Picks

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What is To Dye For: The Documentary about?

To Dye For: The Documentary follows Whitney and Brandon Cawood after they removed synthetic food dyes from their child's diet and saw a dramatic change. The film mixes the family's own story, told in a vlog style, with interviews with dye researchers and with other families, and uses reenactments to bring those families' stories to the screen.

Who made To Dye For?

To Dye For was made by Whitney and Brandon Cawood, a married couple making their first documentary. Whitney set up the interviews, asked the questions and led the marketing. Brandon, a commercial photographer and videographer, shot, edited and animated the film and composed its score, building the music from loops in Splice.

How do you make a documentary with a two-person crew and a small budget?

The Cawoods did nearly every job themselves, including animation, music and casting. They say they put in about $20,000 of their own money, ran two crowdfunding campaigns and received a small local grant. They say the film would have cost about $250,000 on paper if they had paid for all the work they did themselves.

How can a documentary build an audience before it is released?

Whitney Cawood started a Facebook group about living dye-free that grew to about 570,000 members in two years, and offered free resources in exchange for email sign-ups, building a list of about 150,000. The group's data showed the audience was almost all women aged 24 to 44, which shaped how the Cawoods planned to market and screen the film.

DOCUVIEW DÉJÀ VU PICKS

Whitney's pick:


Brandon's picks:


Christian's picks:


SPONSORED BY ARTILLERY SPORTS

This episode is brought to you by Artillery Sports, which makes durable sports equipment and uses a portion of its profits to help care for the nation's veterans. Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your first order. https://artillerysports.com

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/4a7fd3

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUESTS

Whitney Cawood

Co-director, To Dye For: The Documentary

Whitney Cawood has a degree in education and taught school before leaving teaching to start a family. She has run an e-commerce business with Brandon and worked as a freelance digital marketer.

Brandon Cawood

Co-director, To Dye For: The Documentary

Brandon Cawood is a commercial photographer and videographer who toured in a band in his 20s. His photo series Not All Wear Capes, movie-poster-style portraits of first responders, went viral and launched his photography business.

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>d7977ba2-09b3-4e2e-a11c-a3220e895a79Wed, 28 Aug 2024 09:45:00 -050001:02:51falsefull232232Escaping Twin Flames: Cecilia Peck and Inbal LessnerEscaping Twin Flames: Cecilia Peck and Inbal LessnerHow do you tell the story of people a cult taught to stop trusting themselves, without hurting them again?

That was the question at the heart of Escaping Twin Flames, the three-part Netflix series about Twin Flames Universe, an online group that sold itself as a relationship coaching school for people looking for their true love. As director Cecilia Peck explains, it looked welcoming and fun at first. The series shows how it turned into a controlling group that cut people off from their friends and families.

In Episode 231, Christian sits down with Cecilia and her filmmaking partner of more than 15 years, Emmy-nominated editor and producer Inbal B. Lessner. Their partnership started as "a mutual admiration society," and their first film together, Brave Miss World, took five years and was picked up by Netflix in rough cut. After Seduced: Inside the NXIVM Cult, survivors of other groups began writing to them, and Twin Flames Universe was the story that felt most urgent. They spent about two years with survivors before they pitched it.

Cecilia talks about the ethics of filming people who have been traumatized, and Inbal talks about making them "not just our subjects, but our partners." She also explains why she believes most documentary editors deserve a writing credit, how a team of editors worked through more than a thousand hours of video from inside the group, and how she and Cecilia work together. "She's the dreamer and I'm the realist," Inbal says. They also share the advice their shared mentor, Barbara Kopple, gave them both.

WATCH THE FILM: Escaping Twin Flames streams on Netflix.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How Cecilia and Inbal found each other and kept working together
  • How an outreach website led them to the Twin Flames story
  • What Netflix wanted to see before it gave the series a green light
  • How they protected survivors who told hard truths on camera
  • What you give up when a streamer owns your film
  • Why Inbal thinks documentary editors deserve writing credits
  • How three editors each took one survivor's story arc
  • What makes a documentary series well edited
  • Why Barbara Kopple tells new filmmakers to learn sound or editing

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What is Escaping Twin Flames about?

Escaping Twin Flames is a three-part Netflix documentary series, released November 8, 2023, and directed by Cecilia Peck. It follows former members of Twin Flames Universe, an online group led by a married couple, Jeff and Shaleia Divine, that promised to unite people with their "twin flame." Cecilia says the series breaks down how a group that seemed welcoming became controlling, separating people from their friends and families.

How do you pitch a documentary series to Netflix?

Inbal B. Lessner says you need a strong proof of concept: a deck featuring the survivors willing to go on camera, the evidence you've gathered, and a sizzle reel. To get the green light, they also wrote a scene-by-scene outline and a production plan. "I think access is number one," she says. They partnered with Good Caper, pitched almost every streamer, got several offers and chose Netflix.

Should documentary editors get a writing credit?

Inbal B. Lessner believes most documentary editors should. She explains that editors select moments, sentences and sometimes single words, try dozens of orders, and build each character's arc from beginning to end. Christian agrees, and shares that she gave her own editor a writing credit on her documentary because he took such a large part in creating the film.

How many editors worked on Escaping Twin Flames?

Inbal says three editors worked on the three episodes at the same time because of a compressed schedule, with Inbal helping too. Instead of giving each editor one episode, each person took one survivor's story arc from beginning to end, and then they wove the arcs together. A fifth editor, Troy Takaki, joined for finishing. There were more than a thousand hours of video from inside the group alone.

Can a documentary lead to a criminal investigation?

Cecilia and Inbal say it can help. In the NXIVM case, they say, prosecutor Moira Penza's investigation began after a New York Times story, and public pressure from the shows that followed helped lead to an unprecedented 120-year sentence for leader Keith Raniere. With Escaping Twin Flames, the team made sure their reporting was fact-checked by layers of lawyers, so the case would be ready for law enforcement.

DOCUVIEW DEJA VIEW PICKS

  • Fire of Love (2022), directed by Sara Dosa. Inbal's pick, about French volcanologists Katia and Maurice Krafft. She saw it on an IMAX screen and says she could have watched three hours of it.
  • Harlan County, USA (1976), directed by Barbara Kopple. Cecilia's pick, about striking coal miners in Kentucky. She calls it essential viewing for any documentary filmmaker.

See every guest pick on the DocuView Deja View page.

SPONSORED BY ARTILLERY SPORTS

Artillery Sports sells quality sports equipment and uses a portion of its profits to help care for our nation's veterans. Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your first order at artillerysports.com.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen on your favorite app: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT

Documentary First: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUESTS

Cecilia Peck focuses on women's stories and trauma-informed filmmaking. She directed, executive produced and co-showran Escaping Twin Flames (Netflix, 2023), and directed, wrote and co-showran Seduced: Inside the NXIVM Cult (Starz, 2020). She directed and produced Brave Miss World (Emmy nomination) and the Academy Award shortlisted Shut Up & Sing, and produced A Conversation With Gregory Peck, about her father. Cecilia's bio

Inbal B. Lessner, ACE is an Emmy-nominated, Eddie-winning producer and editor. She co-created Seduced and Escaping Twin Flames with Cecilia, and won the 2024 ACE Eddie for Best Edited Documentary (Non-Theatrical) for Escaping Twin Flames. Its third episode, "Up in Flames," was nominated for the 2024 Emmy for Outstanding Picture Editing for Nonfiction Programming. She also edited Stormy and episodes of CNN's The Nineties and The Movies, and teaches at the AFI Conservatory. Inbal's bio

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

]]>How do you tell the story of people a cult taught to stop trusting themselves, without hurting them again?

That was the question at the heart of Escaping Twin Flames, the three-part Netflix series about Twin Flames Universe, an online group that sold itself as a relationship coaching school for people looking for their true love. As director Cecilia Peck explains, it looked welcoming and fun at first. The series shows how it turned into a controlling group that cut people off from their friends and families.

In Episode 231, Christian sits down with Cecilia and her filmmaking partner of more than 15 years, Emmy-nominated editor and producer Inbal B. Lessner. Their partnership started as "a mutual admiration society," and their first film together, Brave Miss World, took five years and was picked up by Netflix in rough cut. After Seduced: Inside the NXIVM Cult, survivors of other groups began writing to them, and Twin Flames Universe was the story that felt most urgent. They spent about two years with survivors before they pitched it.

Cecilia talks about the ethics of filming people who have been traumatized, and Inbal talks about making them "not just our subjects, but our partners." She also explains why she believes most documentary editors deserve a writing credit, how a team of editors worked through more than a thousand hours of video from inside the group, and how she and Cecilia work together. "She's the dreamer and I'm the realist," Inbal says. They also share the advice their shared mentor, Barbara Kopple, gave them both.

WATCH THE FILM: Escaping Twin Flames streams on Netflix.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How Cecilia and Inbal found each other and kept working together
  • How an outreach website led them to the Twin Flames story
  • What Netflix wanted to see before it gave the series a green light
  • How they protected survivors who told hard truths on camera
  • What you give up when a streamer owns your film
  • Why Inbal thinks documentary editors deserve writing credits
  • How three editors each took one survivor's story arc
  • What makes a documentary series well edited
  • Why Barbara Kopple tells new filmmakers to learn sound or editing

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What is Escaping Twin Flames about?

Escaping Twin Flames is a three-part Netflix documentary series, released November 8, 2023, and directed by Cecilia Peck. It follows former members of Twin Flames Universe, an online group led by a married couple, Jeff and Shaleia Divine, that promised to unite people with their "twin flame." Cecilia says the series breaks down how a group that seemed welcoming became controlling, separating people from their friends and families.

How do you pitch a documentary series to Netflix?

Inbal B. Lessner says you need a strong proof of concept: a deck featuring the survivors willing to go on camera, the evidence you've gathered, and a sizzle reel. To get the green light, they also wrote a scene-by-scene outline and a production plan. "I think access is number one," she says. They partnered with Good Caper, pitched almost every streamer, got several offers and chose Netflix.

Should documentary editors get a writing credit?

Inbal B. Lessner believes most documentary editors should. She explains that editors select moments, sentences and sometimes single words, try dozens of orders, and build each character's arc from beginning to end. Christian agrees, and shares that she gave her own editor a writing credit on her documentary because he took such a large part in creating the film.

How many editors worked on Escaping Twin Flames?

Inbal says three editors worked on the three episodes at the same time because of a compressed schedule, with Inbal helping too. Instead of giving each editor one episode, each person took one survivor's story arc from beginning to end, and then they wove the arcs together. A fifth editor, Troy Takaki, joined for finishing. There were more than a thousand hours of video from inside the group alone.

Can a documentary lead to a criminal investigation?

Cecilia and Inbal say it can help. In the NXIVM case, they say, prosecutor Moira Penza's investigation began after a New York Times story, and public pressure from the shows that followed helped lead to an unprecedented 120-year sentence for leader Keith Raniere. With Escaping Twin Flames, the team made sure their reporting was fact-checked by layers of lawyers, so the case would be ready for law enforcement.

DOCUVIEW DEJA VIEW PICKS

  • Fire of Love (2022), directed by Sara Dosa. Inbal's pick, about French volcanologists Katia and Maurice Krafft. She saw it on an IMAX screen and says she could have watched three hours of it.
  • Harlan County, USA (1976), directed by Barbara Kopple. Cecilia's pick, about striking coal miners in Kentucky. She calls it essential viewing for any documentary filmmaker.

See every guest pick on the DocuView Deja View page.

SPONSORED BY ARTILLERY SPORTS

Artillery Sports sells quality sports equipment and uses a portion of its profits to help care for our nation's veterans. Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your first order at artillerysports.com.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen on your favorite app: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT

Documentary First: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUESTS

Cecilia Peck focuses on women's stories and trauma-informed filmmaking. She directed, executive produced and co-showran Escaping Twin Flames (Netflix, 2023), and directed, wrote and co-showran Seduced: Inside the NXIVM Cult (Starz, 2020). She directed and produced Brave Miss World (Emmy nomination) and the Academy Award shortlisted Shut Up & Sing, and produced A Conversation With Gregory Peck, about her father. Cecilia's bio

Inbal B. Lessner, ACE is an Emmy-nominated, Eddie-winning producer and editor. She co-created Seduced and Escaping Twin Flames with Cecilia, and won the 2024 ACE Eddie for Best Edited Documentary (Non-Theatrical) for Escaping Twin Flames. Its third episode, "Up in Flames," was nominated for the 2024 Emmy for Outstanding Picture Editing for Nonfiction Programming. She also edited Stormy and episodes of CNN's The Nineties and The Movies, and teaches at the AFI Conservatory. Inbal's bio

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

]]>ab9d1f8c-ac38-4de2-bd4c-370753876f6fWed, 21 Aug 2024 22:55:00 -050057:51falsefull231231Episode 230 | Normandy Trip Update feat. Peyton RabbEpisode 230 | Normandy Trip Update feat. Peyton Rabb DISCLAIMER -- *Documentary First Productions and it’s staff acknowledge the complexity of the ongoing conflict in the Middle East. Comments made in this video are meant to explore the complexity of violence rather than to promote or stand for a particular cause. --

In this week's episode of Documentary First, host Christian Taylor is joined by summer intern Peyton Rabb to recount their unforgettable journey to Normandy for the 80th Anniversary of the D-Day landings. The Documentary First Productions team had the profound honor of accompanying 101-year-old WWII veteran Ceo Bauer to the commemorative ceremonies—his first experience in Normandy attending the D-Day commemorations.

This deeply moving experience touched not only Ceo and the team but also the people of Normandy and the active-duty military members who took part in the events. Christian and Peyton reflect on the emotional impact of their documentary, "The Girl Who Wore Freedom", which centers around Ceo Bauer’s story and resonates deeply with audiences on both sides of the Atlantic. The episode delves into the French perspective on war and freedom, the significance of the D-Day commemorations, and the team's interactions with notable figures like Air Force captain (CPT), Christian Maude.

Listeners will be transported to key moments of the trip, from visiting the historic church at Angoville-au-Plain, with its blood-stained pews, to witnessing a reenactment at Utah Beach. Peyton also shares her personal growth from this experience, including the profound effect of receiving Ceo's book. The episode wraps up with thoughtful reflections on the importance of taking risks, the power of storytelling, and the value of intergenerational friendships forged through shared history. Don't miss this powerful conversation that honors the past while inspiring future connections.

No DocuView Dèjà Vu this episode.

Timecodes:

00:00 Introduction and Background 03:03 The 80th Anniversary of Normandy 07:28 The Impact of The Girl Who Wore Freedom 11:10 The French Perspective on War and Freedom 15:25 Exploring the Schedule and Events of the Trip 27:25 Inspiring Support from Captain Christian Maude 29:19 A Special Visit to Angoville Church 36:23 Solemn and Impactful Reenactment at Utah Beach 40:23 The Priceless Moment of Receiving Ceo's Book 47:29 The Incredible Involvement of the U.S. Army 52:07 Personal Growth and Transformation 54:03 The Value of Intergenerational Friendships & Conclusion

]]>DISCLAIMER -- *Documentary First Productions and it’s staff acknowledge the complexity of the ongoing conflict in the Middle East. Comments made in this video are meant to explore the complexity of violence rather than to promote or stand for a particular cause. --

In this week's episode of Documentary First, host Christian Taylor is joined by summer intern Peyton Rabb to recount their unforgettable journey to Normandy for the 80th Anniversary of the D-Day landings. The Documentary First Productions team had the profound honor of accompanying 101-year-old WWII veteran Ceo Bauer to the commemorative ceremonies—his first experience in Normandy attending the D-Day commemorations.

This deeply moving experience touched not only Ceo and the team but also the people of Normandy and the active-duty military members who took part in the events. Christian and Peyton reflect on the emotional impact of their documentary, "The Girl Who Wore Freedom", which centers around Ceo Bauer’s story and resonates deeply with audiences on both sides of the Atlantic. The episode delves into the French perspective on war and freedom, the significance of the D-Day commemorations, and the team's interactions with notable figures like Air Force captain (CPT), Christian Maude.

Listeners will be transported to key moments of the trip, from visiting the historic church at Angoville-au-Plain, with its blood-stained pews, to witnessing a reenactment at Utah Beach. Peyton also shares her personal growth from this experience, including the profound effect of receiving Ceo's book. The episode wraps up with thoughtful reflections on the importance of taking risks, the power of storytelling, and the value of intergenerational friendships forged through shared history. Don't miss this powerful conversation that honors the past while inspiring future connections.

No DocuView Dèjà Vu this episode.

Timecodes:

00:00 Introduction and Background 03:03 The 80th Anniversary of Normandy 07:28 The Impact of The Girl Who Wore Freedom 11:10 The French Perspective on War and Freedom 15:25 Exploring the Schedule and Events of the Trip 27:25 Inspiring Support from Captain Christian Maude 29:19 A Special Visit to Angoville Church 36:23 Solemn and Impactful Reenactment at Utah Beach 40:23 The Priceless Moment of Receiving Ceo's Book 47:29 The Incredible Involvement of the U.S. Army 52:07 Personal Growth and Transformation 54:03 The Value of Intergenerational Friendships & Conclusion

]]>3d59f732-170f-4c8d-a13e-b1ea6e680b76Wed, 14 Aug 2024 08:53:00 -050055:40falsefull230230Episode 229 | The Girl Who Wore Freedom Dream Team, Administration (Part 2)Episode 229 | The Girl Who Wore Freedom Dream Team, Administration (Part 2)It's Part 2 of 3 in the Dream Team series, Christian Taylor, Todd Anderson, and David Paterson are back! They share about the release of "The Girl Who Wore Freedom" nationally to celebrate the 80th anniversary of D-Day. This time they dive into administration, specifically getting hard drives to movie theater owners, frustrations, failures, and all. They learned that keeping track of emails and communication is crucial during a theatrical release. It takes money to make money, yet the devil is in the details; Sometimes the operations cost more than expected.

]]>It's Part 2 of 3 in the Dream Team series, Christian Taylor, Todd Anderson, and David Paterson are back! They share about the release of "The Girl Who Wore Freedom" nationally to celebrate the 80th anniversary of D-Day. This time they dive into administration, specifically getting hard drives to movie theater owners, frustrations, failures, and all. They learned that keeping track of emails and communication is crucial during a theatrical release. It takes money to make money, yet the devil is in the details; Sometimes the operations cost more than expected.

]]>7b4ab08f-fba3-4237-901c-07bce1aa5dcbWed, 31 Jul 2024 07:20:00 -050054:34falsefull229229Brian Skerry on Sea Change and the Warming Gulf of MaineBrian Skerry on Sea Change and the Warming Gulf of MaineWhat makes a man walk away from a steady sales job, a company car and a 401(k) to photograph fish?

For National Geographic photographer Brian Skerry, it was a dream he'd had since he was a teenager sitting in a dark auditorium at a Boston dive show. Decades later, that dream led him to Sea Change: The Gulf of Maine, a three-part NOVA series for PBS about a body of water warming 97 percent faster than the global ocean, and the people and animals who depend on it.

In Episode 228, Christian sits down with Brian, who grew up in a working-class mill town in Massachusetts, didn't get on an airplane until he was 26, and worked his way up from a corrugated box factory to top sales rep before he "jumped off a cliff" to shoot full time. His father, who grew up in the Depression and served in World War II, never really understood the choice. Brian says he never looked back, and that the people skills he learned selling boxes are the same ones he uses to pitch an idea to a streaming executive.

Brian has photographed more than 30 stories for National Geographic and produced the Emmy-winning Secrets of the Whales. With Sea Change, he went home to the waters he's dived for four decades. He explains why the Gulf of Maine is like "this giant bathtub that you've turned off the cold water faucet," why he tells climate stories through fishermen, clammers and scientists, and why he believes people protect what they love. He also tells Christian how the crew filmed terns choking on the wrong fish, and which scenes had to be recreated with lobster scientists.

WATCH THE FILM: Sea Change: The Gulf of Maine is on the NOVA series page at PBS, with episodes on pbs.org and the PBS App.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How a dive show in Boston gave a teenage Brian his life's plan
  • Why he kept a factory and sales job for years, and what made him quit
  • What selling corrugated boxes taught him about pitching films
  • Why Brian says a photographer gets hired on a portfolio, and how to build one
  • How pitching his own stories turned a photographer into a producer
  • How Brian directs a camera operator underwater in 40 degree water
  • Why Sea Change tells a climate story through people first
  • Why he believes "people protect what they love"
  • How much of the wildlife was filmed in the wild, and what wasn't

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What is Sea Change: The Gulf of Maine about?

Sea Change: The Gulf of Maine is a three-part NOVA series on PBS about a body of water stretching from Cape Cod to Nova Scotia that is warming 97 percent faster than the global ocean. Producer Brian Skerry says it had to be three films at once: a blue chip natural history series about seals, puffins and lobsters, a people story about fishermen and clammers, and an explanation of climate change. It premiered July 24, 2024.

Why is the Gulf of Maine warming so fast?

Brian Skerry explains that melting Arctic ice, including Greenland's glaciers, is adding fresh water that weakens the Labrador Current, which used to bring cold water down from Canada, while the Gulf Stream has more influence. He compares it to "this giant bathtub that you've turned off the cold water faucet," and says changing currents may be carrying baby lobsters into deeper water where fewer survive.

How did Brian Skerry become a National Geographic photographer?

Brian started diving at about 15 and decided at a Boston dive show that he wanted to explore the ocean with a camera. He studied photography in college, worked on charter boats without pay, and shot for dive and other magazines while holding a factory and then sales job. He got his first National Geographic assignment in the late 1990s and was well into his 30s when he left sales to shoot full time.

How do nature documentaries film animal behavior?

Brian Skerry says it comes down to research, patience and time. His crews spent weeks in blinds, often ones researchers had set up over years, waiting with long lenses for a tern to return with a fish. He estimates about 95 percent of the Sea Change wildlife was filmed in the wild. Lobsters releasing their eggs were filmed in captivity at a Maine laboratory, under the guidance of scientists.

DOCUVIEW DEJA VIEW PICKS

  • Billy & Molly: An Otter Love Story (2024), directed by Charlie Hamilton James. Brian's first pick, a natural history film by his friend and fellow Nat Geo photographer about a man in Shetland who befriends a wild otter.
  • Stevie Van Zandt: Disciple (2024), directed by Bill Teck. Brian's second pick, the HBO documentary about the E Street Band guitarist and Sopranos actor. Brian calls him a guy who "never quit."

See every guest pick on the DocuView Deja View page.

SPONSORED BY ARTILLERY SPORTS

Artillery Sports sells quality sports equipment and uses a portion of its profits to help care for our nation's veterans. Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your first order at artillerysports.com.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen on your favorite app: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT

Documentary First: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Brian Skerry is a film producer, director and photojournalist who specializes in marine wildlife. He has been a contributing photographer for National Geographic magazine since 1998, with more than 30 feature stories, including seven covers. He won the 2021 Primetime Emmy Award for Outstanding Documentary as a producer of Secrets of the Whales (Disney+), and also produced Return of the White Shark. He is an 11-time award winner in the Wildlife Photographer of the Year competition, the only photographer to win the Peter Benchley Award for Excellence in Media, and the author of 12 books, including Ocean Soul, SHARK and Secrets of the Whales. Brian's bio | Instagram | Facebook | X

About the series: Sea Change: The Gulf of Maine was inspired and produced by Brian Skerry, and written and produced by Chun-Wei Yi and Stella Cha. It is a co-production of GBH and So World Media for NOVA.

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED

  • GBH press release and series credits: GBH

]]>What makes a man walk away from a steady sales job, a company car and a 401(k) to photograph fish?

For National Geographic photographer Brian Skerry, it was a dream he'd had since he was a teenager sitting in a dark auditorium at a Boston dive show. Decades later, that dream led him to Sea Change: The Gulf of Maine, a three-part NOVA series for PBS about a body of water warming 97 percent faster than the global ocean, and the people and animals who depend on it.

In Episode 228, Christian sits down with Brian, who grew up in a working-class mill town in Massachusetts, didn't get on an airplane until he was 26, and worked his way up from a corrugated box factory to top sales rep before he "jumped off a cliff" to shoot full time. His father, who grew up in the Depression and served in World War II, never really understood the choice. Brian says he never looked back, and that the people skills he learned selling boxes are the same ones he uses to pitch an idea to a streaming executive.

Brian has photographed more than 30 stories for National Geographic and produced the Emmy-winning Secrets of the Whales. With Sea Change, he went home to the waters he's dived for four decades. He explains why the Gulf of Maine is like "this giant bathtub that you've turned off the cold water faucet," why he tells climate stories through fishermen, clammers and scientists, and why he believes people protect what they love. He also tells Christian how the crew filmed terns choking on the wrong fish, and which scenes had to be recreated with lobster scientists.

WATCH THE FILM: Sea Change: The Gulf of Maine is on the NOVA series page at PBS, with episodes on pbs.org and the PBS App.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How a dive show in Boston gave a teenage Brian his life's plan
  • Why he kept a factory and sales job for years, and what made him quit
  • What selling corrugated boxes taught him about pitching films
  • Why Brian says a photographer gets hired on a portfolio, and how to build one
  • How pitching his own stories turned a photographer into a producer
  • How Brian directs a camera operator underwater in 40 degree water
  • Why Sea Change tells a climate story through people first
  • Why he believes "people protect what they love"
  • How much of the wildlife was filmed in the wild, and what wasn't

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What is Sea Change: The Gulf of Maine about?

Sea Change: The Gulf of Maine is a three-part NOVA series on PBS about a body of water stretching from Cape Cod to Nova Scotia that is warming 97 percent faster than the global ocean. Producer Brian Skerry says it had to be three films at once: a blue chip natural history series about seals, puffins and lobsters, a people story about fishermen and clammers, and an explanation of climate change. It premiered July 24, 2024.

Why is the Gulf of Maine warming so fast?

Brian Skerry explains that melting Arctic ice, including Greenland's glaciers, is adding fresh water that weakens the Labrador Current, which used to bring cold water down from Canada, while the Gulf Stream has more influence. He compares it to "this giant bathtub that you've turned off the cold water faucet," and says changing currents may be carrying baby lobsters into deeper water where fewer survive.

How did Brian Skerry become a National Geographic photographer?

Brian started diving at about 15 and decided at a Boston dive show that he wanted to explore the ocean with a camera. He studied photography in college, worked on charter boats without pay, and shot for dive and other magazines while holding a factory and then sales job. He got his first National Geographic assignment in the late 1990s and was well into his 30s when he left sales to shoot full time.

How do nature documentaries film animal behavior?

Brian Skerry says it comes down to research, patience and time. His crews spent weeks in blinds, often ones researchers had set up over years, waiting with long lenses for a tern to return with a fish. He estimates about 95 percent of the Sea Change wildlife was filmed in the wild. Lobsters releasing their eggs were filmed in captivity at a Maine laboratory, under the guidance of scientists.

DOCUVIEW DEJA VIEW PICKS

  • Billy & Molly: An Otter Love Story (2024), directed by Charlie Hamilton James. Brian's first pick, a natural history film by his friend and fellow Nat Geo photographer about a man in Shetland who befriends a wild otter.
  • Stevie Van Zandt: Disciple (2024), directed by Bill Teck. Brian's second pick, the HBO documentary about the E Street Band guitarist and Sopranos actor. Brian calls him a guy who "never quit."

See every guest pick on the DocuView Deja View page.

SPONSORED BY ARTILLERY SPORTS

Artillery Sports sells quality sports equipment and uses a portion of its profits to help care for our nation's veterans. Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your first order at artillerysports.com.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen on your favorite app: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT

Documentary First: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Brian Skerry is a film producer, director and photojournalist who specializes in marine wildlife. He has been a contributing photographer for National Geographic magazine since 1998, with more than 30 feature stories, including seven covers. He won the 2021 Primetime Emmy Award for Outstanding Documentary as a producer of Secrets of the Whales (Disney+), and also produced Return of the White Shark. He is an 11-time award winner in the Wildlife Photographer of the Year competition, the only photographer to win the Peter Benchley Award for Excellence in Media, and the author of 12 books, including Ocean Soul, SHARK and Secrets of the Whales. Brian's bio | Instagram | Facebook | X

About the series: Sea Change: The Gulf of Maine was inspired and produced by Brian Skerry, and written and produced by Chun-Wei Yi and Stella Cha. It is a co-production of GBH and So World Media for NOVA.

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED

  • GBH press release and series credits: GBH

]]>4793615f-63b2-4b62-a3ad-19a688fe599cThu, 18 Jul 2024 04:38:00 -050001:11:31falsefull228228Episode 227 | The Girl Who Wore Freedom Dream Team - Part 1Episode 227 | The Girl Who Wore Freedom Dream Team - Part 1Our dream team who was in charge of releasing "The Girl Who Wore Freedom" in theaters for the 80th anniversary of D-day, June 6, 2024 reunite! They offer a behind-the-scenes look into the herculean effort in getting our first documentary successfully on the big screen. Throughout the conversation, the team emphasizes the importance of crafting compelling emails, employing creative outreach tactics, and maintaining meticulous follow-up to ensure success. They share their experiences navigating the challenges of securing commitments and marketing the film across different theaters and communities. Their dedication and efforts culminated in a successful theatrical release, significantly raising awareness about D-Day and honoring its legacy

No DocuView Dèjà Vu this episode

Timecodes:

00:00 Introduction and Setting the Stage 01:31 How Todd Anderson Got Involved 25:27 Crafting Effective Outreach Emails 29:14 Tracking and Follow-Up 36:08 Reaching Out to Local Communities 38:51 Challenges in Securing Theater Commitments 48:23 Conclusion

Sponsor: http://ArtillerySports.com Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your order today!

]]>Our dream team who was in charge of releasing "The Girl Who Wore Freedom" in theaters for the 80th anniversary of D-day, June 6, 2024 reunite! They offer a behind-the-scenes look into the herculean effort in getting our first documentary successfully on the big screen. Throughout the conversation, the team emphasizes the importance of crafting compelling emails, employing creative outreach tactics, and maintaining meticulous follow-up to ensure success. They share their experiences navigating the challenges of securing commitments and marketing the film across different theaters and communities. Their dedication and efforts culminated in a successful theatrical release, significantly raising awareness about D-Day and honoring its legacy

No DocuView Dèjà Vu this episode

Timecodes:

00:00 Introduction and Setting the Stage 01:31 How Todd Anderson Got Involved 25:27 Crafting Effective Outreach Emails 29:14 Tracking and Follow-Up 36:08 Reaching Out to Local Communities 38:51 Challenges in Securing Theater Commitments 48:23 Conclusion

Sponsor: http://ArtillerySports.com Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your order today!

]]>1e05cf4a-9998-45c2-bb81-8892c4452a8eWed, 03 Jul 2024 14:08:00 -050052:49falsefull227227Episode 226 | Saffron Cassaday, Directing a Film About PoopEpisode 226 | Saffron Cassaday, Directing a Film About PoopAfter suffering from Ulcerative Colitis for nearly a decade, filmmaker Saffron Cassaday tried a new treatment known as Fecal Microbiota Transplant: taking stool from a healthy donor and implanting it into the gut of a sick patient. She chronicles this journey in DESIGNER $HIT, https://geni.us/DesignerShit.

We were fortunate to have her on the podcast to share about her start in the entertainment industry as a commercial editor and later directing the successful documentary, "Cyber-Seniors" https://cyberseniorsdocumentary.com/. We get into her most recent project, a revealing medical journey that features turning poop into medicine.

DocuView Dèjà Vu:

Saffron:

“Babies” 2010, 79 mins, Watch on Amazon/Prime, IMDB LINK: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1020938/

Christian:

“Cat Daddies” 2022, 89 mins, Watch on Plex, Tubi, Prime, IMDB LINK: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10968602/

“Unsung Hero” 2024, 113 mins, Narrative based on a true story, Currently in Theatres, IMDB LINK: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt23638614/

Timecodes:

00:00 Introduction

07:16 Choosing to Being Her Own Subject

20:16 Bridging the Generational Gap Through Technology in "Cyber-Seniors"

23:00 My Mom is the Producer!

25:08 Why You Need to Love the Subject Matter You Are Directing

28:10 "Designer Shit"

31:15 Fecal Transplant Treatment Perspectives in the Medical Community

38:34 DocuView Dèjà Vu

Sponsor: http://ArtillerySports.com Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your order today!

]]>After suffering from Ulcerative Colitis for nearly a decade, filmmaker Saffron Cassaday tried a new treatment known as Fecal Microbiota Transplant: taking stool from a healthy donor and implanting it into the gut of a sick patient. She chronicles this journey in DESIGNER $HIT, https://geni.us/DesignerShit.

We were fortunate to have her on the podcast to share about her start in the entertainment industry as a commercial editor and later directing the successful documentary, "Cyber-Seniors" https://cyberseniorsdocumentary.com/. We get into her most recent project, a revealing medical journey that features turning poop into medicine.

DocuView Dèjà Vu:

Saffron:

“Babies” 2010, 79 mins, Watch on Amazon/Prime, IMDB LINK: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1020938/

Christian:

“Cat Daddies” 2022, 89 mins, Watch on Plex, Tubi, Prime, IMDB LINK: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10968602/

“Unsung Hero” 2024, 113 mins, Narrative based on a true story, Currently in Theatres, IMDB LINK: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt23638614/

Timecodes:

00:00 Introduction

07:16 Choosing to Being Her Own Subject

20:16 Bridging the Generational Gap Through Technology in "Cyber-Seniors"

23:00 My Mom is the Producer!

25:08 Why You Need to Love the Subject Matter You Are Directing

28:10 "Designer Shit"

31:15 Fecal Transplant Treatment Perspectives in the Medical Community

38:34 DocuView Dèjà Vu

Sponsor: http://ArtillerySports.com Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your order today!

]]>94cddeb3-c275-4fd0-b005-f6300572c792Thu, 20 Jun 2024 08:08:00 -050043:22falsefull226226Episode 225 | Human Swiss Army Knife Filmmaking w/ Josh HaygoodEpisode 225 | Human Swiss Army Knife Filmmaking w/ Josh HaygoodDid you ever wonder if a "Human Swiss Army Knife" of filmmaking existed? Well, in this episode, you'll meet one: Josh Haygood, also known as "The Fixer."

Join us as Christian and Josh chat about how Josh got into filmmaking, transitioning from photography to moving pictures. From his time in Vietnam, devouring National Geographic, to landing jobs with the UN and MTV, Josh's journey is fascinating.

We explore Haygood's extensive resume, showcasing his ability to tackle any job in the industry. His versatility and problem-solving skills earned him the nickname "The Fixer" during his years at MTV. He shares some of his experiences about being called to "fix" a project.

Haygood worked on a recent documentary project that involved an innovative boating propeller, https://maelstrompropellers.com/

In a segment called "Answer Me This," Christian throws Haygood a few questions about life and media arts.

By the end of the episode, we invite Josh to be a "friend of the show" as we are excited to have him back to delve into more areas of filmmaking.

DocuView Dèjà Vu:

JOSH: “Won’t You Be My Neighbor”, 2018, 95 mins, Watch on Netflix or Prime, IMDB LINK:

Won't You Be My Neighbor? (2018) ⭐ 8.3 | Documentary, Biography, History

Josh Haygood's production company link:

https://www.banditofilms.com/

Timecodes:

  • (00:00) - Introduction
  • (12:17) How does somebody get to be in your position?
  • (15:23) Development expertise in a thing become really, really good at least one thing.
  • (17:28) The propeller company, the “Maelstrom Propellers” project.
  • (21:46) “What do you want to do with that documentary?”
  • (24:44) "What is one thing a person starting out could do to further their career?"
  • (25:49) Josh names a person that really influenced his life. And why they made a difference to him.
  • (27:39) “Three things that you tell your people when you want to set the tone on any production”
  • (33:23) "What do you do when you're really struggling? When you don't have a project to work on or when the project you're working on isn't going well?"
  • (43:51) "You absolutely seem to love your work and this lifestyle. And I just want to know. Why? This is a crazy job. It's crazy. What is it? Why do you love it so much?"
  • (49:00) DocuView Dèjà Vu Segment - “Won't You Be My Neighbor”

]]>Did you ever wonder if a "Human Swiss Army Knife" of filmmaking existed? Well, in this episode, you'll meet one: Josh Haygood, also known as "The Fixer."

Join us as Christian and Josh chat about how Josh got into filmmaking, transitioning from photography to moving pictures. From his time in Vietnam, devouring National Geographic, to landing jobs with the UN and MTV, Josh's journey is fascinating.

We explore Haygood's extensive resume, showcasing his ability to tackle any job in the industry. His versatility and problem-solving skills earned him the nickname "The Fixer" during his years at MTV. He shares some of his experiences about being called to "fix" a project.

Haygood worked on a recent documentary project that involved an innovative boating propeller, https://maelstrompropellers.com/

In a segment called "Answer Me This," Christian throws Haygood a few questions about life and media arts.

By the end of the episode, we invite Josh to be a "friend of the show" as we are excited to have him back to delve into more areas of filmmaking.

DocuView Dèjà Vu:

JOSH: “Won’t You Be My Neighbor”, 2018, 95 mins, Watch on Netflix or Prime, IMDB LINK:

Won't You Be My Neighbor? (2018) ⭐ 8.3 | Documentary, Biography, History

Josh Haygood's production company link:

https://www.banditofilms.com/

Timecodes:

  • (00:00) - Introduction
  • (12:17) How does somebody get to be in your position?
  • (15:23) Development expertise in a thing become really, really good at least one thing.
  • (17:28) The propeller company, the “Maelstrom Propellers” project.
  • (21:46) “What do you want to do with that documentary?”
  • (24:44) "What is one thing a person starting out could do to further their career?"
  • (25:49) Josh names a person that really influenced his life. And why they made a difference to him.
  • (27:39) “Three things that you tell your people when you want to set the tone on any production”
  • (33:23) "What do you do when you're really struggling? When you don't have a project to work on or when the project you're working on isn't going well?"
  • (43:51) "You absolutely seem to love your work and this lifestyle. And I just want to know. Why? This is a crazy job. It's crazy. What is it? Why do you love it so much?"
  • (49:00) DocuView Dèjà Vu Segment - “Won't You Be My Neighbor”

]]>1b849c61-1a57-491f-9a4b-738772be2f59Sat, 08 Jun 2024 06:41:00 -050053:50falsefull225225Bonus Episode | The Genesis of TGWWF - "AM 560 The Answer"Bonus Episode | The Genesis of TGWWF - "AM 560 The Answer"Hey podcast listeners, in anticipation for our limited theatrical release on D-Day, we are sharing a special segment where Christian Taylor was featured on "The Real Story with Jeanne Ives" aired May 26, 2024. Tune in to hear the beginnings of how Taylor got into directing and for updates on "Heroes of Carentan". Stream "The Girl Who Wore Freedom" this Memorial Day on Fandango at Home, Apple TV, Prime Video, and Vimeo.

]]>Hey podcast listeners, in anticipation for our limited theatrical release on D-Day, we are sharing a special segment where Christian Taylor was featured on "The Real Story with Jeanne Ives" aired May 26, 2024. Tune in to hear the beginnings of how Taylor got into directing and for updates on "Heroes of Carentan". Stream "The Girl Who Wore Freedom" this Memorial Day on Fandango at Home, Apple TV, Prime Video, and Vimeo.

]]>831105eb-9144-4c17-b1e7-1eb2f4a9803eMon, 27 May 2024 11:23:00 -050021:34falsebonusEpisode 224 | D-Day Theatrical Release, Guest: David Paterson (The Girl Who Wore Freedom)Episode 224 | D-Day Theatrical Release, Guest: David Paterson (The Girl Who Wore Freedom)In this episode, Christian and David Paterson discuss the FIRST ever theatrical release of "The Girl Who Wore Freedom"! They highlight the importance of knowing your audience, reaching out to mom-and-pop theaters, and independent film distribution overall.

The conversation explores the reasoning behind having a limited theatrical release for our documentary film. They also touch on the costs associated with distribution and the timing strategy of theatrical releases. The episode concludes with a recommendation for the documentary film "The Greatest Night in Pop", which chronicles the making of the song "We Are the World." https://www.imdb.com/title/tt30796448/

· UPDATE: We have 222 Screenings in 109 Cities and 31 States!!!

· NEW SCREENINGS ADDED DAILY FOR THE GIRL WHO WORE FREEDOM

· CHECK OUT OUR INTERACTIVE MAP and find a screening in a city near you! Click here: https://i.mtr.cool/snfqwdivme

· Be sure to check back frequently, as we'll be adding other locations!

Timecodes

00:00 Introduction and Company Update 01:27 Theatrical Release Announcement 08:00 The Importance of Knowing Your Audience 13:27 Customizing Outreach Efforts for Community Engagement 25:29 The Financial Aspects of a Theatrical Release 29:45 Persistence in Securing Theatres 33:41 Tailoring Screenings to the Venue 34:07 Flexibility and Options for Theaters 36:18 Considering the Costs of Distribution 46:09 Timing is Key for Theatrical Releases 52:19 DocuView Dèjà Vu: "The Greatest Night in Pop"

]]>In this episode, Christian and David Paterson discuss the FIRST ever theatrical release of "The Girl Who Wore Freedom"! They highlight the importance of knowing your audience, reaching out to mom-and-pop theaters, and independent film distribution overall.

The conversation explores the reasoning behind having a limited theatrical release for our documentary film. They also touch on the costs associated with distribution and the timing strategy of theatrical releases. The episode concludes with a recommendation for the documentary film "The Greatest Night in Pop", which chronicles the making of the song "We Are the World." https://www.imdb.com/title/tt30796448/

· UPDATE: We have 222 Screenings in 109 Cities and 31 States!!!

· NEW SCREENINGS ADDED DAILY FOR THE GIRL WHO WORE FREEDOM

· CHECK OUT OUR INTERACTIVE MAP and find a screening in a city near you! Click here: https://i.mtr.cool/snfqwdivme

· Be sure to check back frequently, as we'll be adding other locations!

Timecodes

00:00 Introduction and Company Update 01:27 Theatrical Release Announcement 08:00 The Importance of Knowing Your Audience 13:27 Customizing Outreach Efforts for Community Engagement 25:29 The Financial Aspects of a Theatrical Release 29:45 Persistence in Securing Theatres 33:41 Tailoring Screenings to the Venue 34:07 Flexibility and Options for Theaters 36:18 Considering the Costs of Distribution 46:09 Timing is Key for Theatrical Releases 52:19 DocuView Dèjà Vu: "The Greatest Night in Pop"

]]>6cbc2778-9341-4270-9d37-2ce77fdbe2daFri, 24 May 2024 07:34:00 -050057:53falsefull224224Minted: Nicholas Bruckman on the Artists Behind the NFT BoomMinted: Nicholas Bruckman on the Artists Behind the NFT BoomWhat happens to an artist when a new technology turns them into a millionaire, and then the market crashes?

In 2021, a digital artist known as Beeple sold a single NFT for $69 million at Christie's, and artists who had struggled for years suddenly found collectors paying for their work. Nicholas Bruckman started filming right around that time. His documentary Minted: The Rise (and Fall?) of the NFT follows artists through that boom and the crash that came after it: Beeple; photographer Justin Aversano, who by the end was also a million-dollar artist; music video artist and rapper Latashá; and Karina, a painter in Cuba whose government made her cover up her political paintings, and who used NFTs to sell her work abroad and finally leave Cuba with her daughter.

In Episode 223, Christian Taylor welcomes Nicholas back for his second visit, with co-host Jason Rugg out again. They begin with Ady Barkan, the subject of Nicholas's film Not Going Quietly, who died in November 2023. Nicholas tells how he and Ady's team took the film apart into short pieces for the memorial service, and how it ended: the room joined Ady in one last mic check, using the scene where he says, "My voice is weak but together we can be louder." Nicholas also remembers driving three hours in a hot RV to a campaign stop, somewhere like Utah, he thinks, where four people came to hear Ady speak. Ady wasn't let down at all, Nicholas says; he'd made real connections, and what was the difference between that and speaking to a thousand? Christian shares how her family reminded her of the lives The Girl Who Wore Freedom touched, even when the audience felt small, and Nicholas adds that touching one life is really meaningful.

Then Minted. Nicholas explains what an NFT is in plain terms, a token like a Bitcoin that can stand for a piece of art, and why the film uses definition cards on screen. He talks about remote-directing a local crew in Lagos, Nigeria, not knowing who his main characters would be while he was filming, and thanking every person he interviewed in the credits, even those who didn't make the cut. On fear and doubt in the middle of a project, Nicholas turns to the Serenity Prayer, and Christian shares a detail from Ken Burns's MasterClass: Burns keeps binders of rejection letters. They talk plainly about money: none of his films they discuss has earned back its budget, Nicholas says, and his company's commercial and brand work is what keeps his features possible. At the time of recording, Minted had premiered at Tribeca and in Copenhagen and was close to a deal with a streamer.

WATCH THE FILM

Minted: The Rise (and Fall?) of the NFT is streaming on Netflix

CHAPTERS

0:00 Ady's Last Mic Check

6:35 Speaking to Four People

13:09 Finding Minted a Home

16:01 What Is an NFT?

21:08 Beeple's $69 Million Sale

24:49 Boom, Then Crash

29:10 Nigeria, Cuba and Karina

33:52 The Cutting Room Floor

36:27 Fear, Doubt and Rejection

46:21 Do Documentaries Make Money?

51:45 Should You Mint Your Art?

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What is the documentary Minted about?

Minted: The Rise (and Fall?) of the NFT is a documentary directed by Nicholas Bruckman about artists who were thrust into the spotlight by NFTs in 2021 and then lived through the market's crash. It follows Beeple, whose NFT sold for $69 million at Christie's, along with photographer Justin Aversano, music video artist and rapper Latashá and Karina, a painter in Cuba. It premiered at the 2023 Tribeca Festival.

What is an NFT, in simple terms?

On Documentary First, Nicholas Bruckman explains that the NFT, or non-fungible token, grew out of cryptocurrency. Just as a Bitcoin is a token that represents money, an NFT is a token, a string of code, that can represent something in the real world, most famously a piece of digital art, and that can be owned or sent to someone else. The technology underneath it is the blockchain. His film Minted uses on-screen definition cards to explain it.

Do documentaries make money?

Nicholas Bruckman told Documentary First that none of his films they discussed had earned more in revenue than its budget, and he calls that the fundamental challenge of the industry: documentaries are expensive to make, and buyers rarely pay big premiums. He keeps making features with income from his company, People's TV, which makes commercials and documentaries for companies, and he urges filmmakers to build a steady income in or near the industry.

Should artists mint their work as NFTs?

Bruckman says he owns some NFTs but has never minted one. He sees them as an interesting tool for artists who can already market themselves and have an audience, pointing to Justin Aversano's collection of 100 photographs, but he warns they are no cure-all: you still need collectors who want your work, and anything that looks like a get-rich-quick scheme probably is. For step-by-step help, he points to Latashá's NFT course for artists of color.

SPONSORED BY ARTILLERY SPORTS

This episode is brought to you by Artillery Sports, which makes durable sports equipment and uses a portion of its profits to help care for the nation's veterans. Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your first order. https://artillerysports.com

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/4a7fe7

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Nicholas Bruckman

Director and Founder of People's Television

Nicholas Bruckman is an Emmy-nominated director and the founder and CEO of People's Television (People's TV), a creative studio in New York City and Washington, DC. He directed Minted: The Rise (and Fall?) of the NFT, which premiered at the 2023 Tribeca Festival, aired on PBS Independent Lens and was released on Netflix in 2025, and Not Going Quietly, winner of the Audience Award and a Special Jury Award at SXSW 2021. He produced Valley of Saints, a Sundance Audience Award winner, and co-directed the docuseries The Price of Milk with Yoni Brook.

Website

People's TV

Instagram

X

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

THE NICK BRUCKMAN SESSIONS


RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>What happens to an artist when a new technology turns them into a millionaire, and then the market crashes?

In 2021, a digital artist known as Beeple sold a single NFT for $69 million at Christie's, and artists who had struggled for years suddenly found collectors paying for their work. Nicholas Bruckman started filming right around that time. His documentary Minted: The Rise (and Fall?) of the NFT follows artists through that boom and the crash that came after it: Beeple; photographer Justin Aversano, who by the end was also a million-dollar artist; music video artist and rapper Latashá; and Karina, a painter in Cuba whose government made her cover up her political paintings, and who used NFTs to sell her work abroad and finally leave Cuba with her daughter.

In Episode 223, Christian Taylor welcomes Nicholas back for his second visit, with co-host Jason Rugg out again. They begin with Ady Barkan, the subject of Nicholas's film Not Going Quietly, who died in November 2023. Nicholas tells how he and Ady's team took the film apart into short pieces for the memorial service, and how it ended: the room joined Ady in one last mic check, using the scene where he says, "My voice is weak but together we can be louder." Nicholas also remembers driving three hours in a hot RV to a campaign stop, somewhere like Utah, he thinks, where four people came to hear Ady speak. Ady wasn't let down at all, Nicholas says; he'd made real connections, and what was the difference between that and speaking to a thousand? Christian shares how her family reminded her of the lives The Girl Who Wore Freedom touched, even when the audience felt small, and Nicholas adds that touching one life is really meaningful.

Then Minted. Nicholas explains what an NFT is in plain terms, a token like a Bitcoin that can stand for a piece of art, and why the film uses definition cards on screen. He talks about remote-directing a local crew in Lagos, Nigeria, not knowing who his main characters would be while he was filming, and thanking every person he interviewed in the credits, even those who didn't make the cut. On fear and doubt in the middle of a project, Nicholas turns to the Serenity Prayer, and Christian shares a detail from Ken Burns's MasterClass: Burns keeps binders of rejection letters. They talk plainly about money: none of his films they discuss has earned back its budget, Nicholas says, and his company's commercial and brand work is what keeps his features possible. At the time of recording, Minted had premiered at Tribeca and in Copenhagen and was close to a deal with a streamer.

WATCH THE FILM

Minted: The Rise (and Fall?) of the NFT is streaming on Netflix

CHAPTERS

0:00 Ady's Last Mic Check

6:35 Speaking to Four People

13:09 Finding Minted a Home

16:01 What Is an NFT?

21:08 Beeple's $69 Million Sale

24:49 Boom, Then Crash

29:10 Nigeria, Cuba and Karina

33:52 The Cutting Room Floor

36:27 Fear, Doubt and Rejection

46:21 Do Documentaries Make Money?

51:45 Should You Mint Your Art?

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What is the documentary Minted about?

Minted: The Rise (and Fall?) of the NFT is a documentary directed by Nicholas Bruckman about artists who were thrust into the spotlight by NFTs in 2021 and then lived through the market's crash. It follows Beeple, whose NFT sold for $69 million at Christie's, along with photographer Justin Aversano, music video artist and rapper Latashá and Karina, a painter in Cuba. It premiered at the 2023 Tribeca Festival.

What is an NFT, in simple terms?

On Documentary First, Nicholas Bruckman explains that the NFT, or non-fungible token, grew out of cryptocurrency. Just as a Bitcoin is a token that represents money, an NFT is a token, a string of code, that can represent something in the real world, most famously a piece of digital art, and that can be owned or sent to someone else. The technology underneath it is the blockchain. His film Minted uses on-screen definition cards to explain it.

Do documentaries make money?

Nicholas Bruckman told Documentary First that none of his films they discussed had earned more in revenue than its budget, and he calls that the fundamental challenge of the industry: documentaries are expensive to make, and buyers rarely pay big premiums. He keeps making features with income from his company, People's TV, which makes commercials and documentaries for companies, and he urges filmmakers to build a steady income in or near the industry.

Should artists mint their work as NFTs?

Bruckman says he owns some NFTs but has never minted one. He sees them as an interesting tool for artists who can already market themselves and have an audience, pointing to Justin Aversano's collection of 100 photographs, but he warns they are no cure-all: you still need collectors who want your work, and anything that looks like a get-rich-quick scheme probably is. For step-by-step help, he points to Latashá's NFT course for artists of color.

SPONSORED BY ARTILLERY SPORTS

This episode is brought to you by Artillery Sports, which makes durable sports equipment and uses a portion of its profits to help care for the nation's veterans. Use the code DocFirst for 10% off your first order. https://artillerysports.com

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/4a7fe7

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Nicholas Bruckman

Director and Founder of People's Television

Nicholas Bruckman is an Emmy-nominated director and the founder and CEO of People's Television (People's TV), a creative studio in New York City and Washington, DC. He directed Minted: The Rise (and Fall?) of the NFT, which premiered at the 2023 Tribeca Festival, aired on PBS Independent Lens and was released on Netflix in 2025, and Not Going Quietly, winner of the Audience Award and a Special Jury Award at SXSW 2021. He produced Valley of Saints, a Sundance Audience Award winner, and co-directed the docuseries The Price of Milk with Yoni Brook.

Website

People's TV

Instagram

X

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

THE NICK BRUCKMAN SESSIONS


RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>b2341c53-4d6f-412f-ab0b-ba8971d289bbFri, 10 May 2024 00:06:00 -050001:00:45falsefull223223Episode 222 | The Crazy World of "Mad Props"Episode 222 | The Crazy World of "Mad Props"In this episode, Christian provides an update on company developments and announces the upcoming trailer for our next documentary, "Heroes of Carentan." She gives an exclusive about the limited theatrical release of "The Girl Who Wore Freedom." Special guests, Tom Biolchini and Juan Pablo Reinoso, producer, director, and writer of "Mad Props," delve into the origins of "Mad Props," detailing its evolution from a TV show concept to a full-fledged documentary. Juan shares insights into his career and how his reunion with Tom sparked their collaboration on this project.

The discussion explores the significance of embracing failure and highlights Tom’s natural flair as a host within the documentary. Juan outlines his organic filmmaking approach and the narrative development throughout "Mad Props." As the episode draws to a close, Tom shares his enthusiasm about realizing his childhood dreams through documentary.

The conversation spans a variety of topics related to the film’s production, including budgeting, travel logistics, and scheduling. The guests discuss the challenges and strategies of navigating the film festival circuit. They emphasize the positive impact of maintaining a good attitude on set and its influence on the project. Juan reflects on his journey in the film industry, underscoring the importance of perseverance and dedication. Upcoming projects and Juan’s evolving roles in filmmaking are also discussed.

Juan then talks about his favorite documentaries and the inherent unpredictability of documentary filmmaking. He stresses the importance of continuous learning and explains the concept of fair use for incorporating movie clips into documentaries. Insights into acquiring film clips and adapting to the dynamic nature of the film industry are shared. Juan highlights the critical roles of persistence and the filmmaker’s involvement in distribution. Lastly, Juan speaks to the generosity and philanthropy of Tom Biolchini, the focus of his documentary, rounding off a thoroughly engaging episode.

Takeaways

Documentary filmmakers must remain committed to continual learning and adapting to emerging technologies and evolving industry trends. Understanding fair use is paramount for integrating movie clips into documentaries; collaborating with clearance attorneys can provide essential guidance through complex legal landscapes. Persistence and resilience are crucial traits for filmmakers, given the industry's constant flux and the often demanding path to success. Active participation in the film's distribution process is essential, requiring filmmakers to invest significant effort in promoting their work. Moreover, the generosity and philanthropy of individuals like Tom not only enrich the filmmaking community but also leave a lasting impact on the broader world.

DocuView Dèjà Vu:

Juan Pablo Reinoso:

  1. Dear Zachary: A Letter to a Son about His Father, 2008, 95 mins, Watch on Prime or Tubi, IMDB: Dear Zachary: A Letter to a Son About His Father (2008) - IMDb
  2. 20 Days in Mariupol, 2023, 95 mins, Watch on Prime, IMDB: 20 Days in Mariupol (2023) - IMDb
  3. Capturing the Friedmans, 2003, 107mins, Watch on Max or buy from Amazon, IMDB: Capturing the Friedmans (2003) ⭐ 7.6 | Documentary, Biography, Crime

]]>In this episode, Christian provides an update on company developments and announces the upcoming trailer for our next documentary, "Heroes of Carentan." She gives an exclusive about the limited theatrical release of "The Girl Who Wore Freedom." Special guests, Tom Biolchini and Juan Pablo Reinoso, producer, director, and writer of "Mad Props," delve into the origins of "Mad Props," detailing its evolution from a TV show concept to a full-fledged documentary. Juan shares insights into his career and how his reunion with Tom sparked their collaboration on this project.

The discussion explores the significance of embracing failure and highlights Tom’s natural flair as a host within the documentary. Juan outlines his organic filmmaking approach and the narrative development throughout "Mad Props." As the episode draws to a close, Tom shares his enthusiasm about realizing his childhood dreams through documentary.

The conversation spans a variety of topics related to the film’s production, including budgeting, travel logistics, and scheduling. The guests discuss the challenges and strategies of navigating the film festival circuit. They emphasize the positive impact of maintaining a good attitude on set and its influence on the project. Juan reflects on his journey in the film industry, underscoring the importance of perseverance and dedication. Upcoming projects and Juan’s evolving roles in filmmaking are also discussed.

Juan then talks about his favorite documentaries and the inherent unpredictability of documentary filmmaking. He stresses the importance of continuous learning and explains the concept of fair use for incorporating movie clips into documentaries. Insights into acquiring film clips and adapting to the dynamic nature of the film industry are shared. Juan highlights the critical roles of persistence and the filmmaker’s involvement in distribution. Lastly, Juan speaks to the generosity and philanthropy of Tom Biolchini, the focus of his documentary, rounding off a thoroughly engaging episode.

Takeaways

Documentary filmmakers must remain committed to continual learning and adapting to emerging technologies and evolving industry trends. Understanding fair use is paramount for integrating movie clips into documentaries; collaborating with clearance attorneys can provide essential guidance through complex legal landscapes. Persistence and resilience are crucial traits for filmmakers, given the industry's constant flux and the often demanding path to success. Active participation in the film's distribution process is essential, requiring filmmakers to invest significant effort in promoting their work. Moreover, the generosity and philanthropy of individuals like Tom not only enrich the filmmaking community but also leave a lasting impact on the broader world.

DocuView Dèjà Vu:

Juan Pablo Reinoso:

  1. Dear Zachary: A Letter to a Son about His Father, 2008, 95 mins, Watch on Prime or Tubi, IMDB: Dear Zachary: A Letter to a Son About His Father (2008) - IMDb
  2. 20 Days in Mariupol, 2023, 95 mins, Watch on Prime, IMDB: 20 Days in Mariupol (2023) - IMDb
  3. Capturing the Friedmans, 2003, 107mins, Watch on Max or buy from Amazon, IMDB: Capturing the Friedmans (2003) ⭐ 7.6 | Documentary, Biography, Crime

]]>d95af7f5-253f-42a5-b241-594d65e3c2e9Thu, 25 Apr 2024 08:28:00 -050001:40:05falsefull222222Episode 221 | Meaningful Stories w/ Alex Ivany of Ifine: BeautyEpisode 221 | Meaningful Stories w/ Alex Ivany of Ifine: BeautyIn this episode, host Christian Taylor interviews Alex Ivany, a visual storyteller, about his journey in the documentary filmmaking industry. Alex shares his passion for social and racial justice, which led him to work on projects that shed light on marginalized communities. He discusses his role as a producer and editor on the film "Ifine: Beauty", which explores the issue of skin bleaching in Sierra Leone. Alex also provides tips for aspiring filmmakers, emphasizing the importance of networking, continuous learning, and finding a mentor. The episode concludes with a call to support the film and join the documentary filmmaking community. Alex Ivany's email: ivanyproductions@gmail.com

Takeaways

• Networking and asking questions are essential for aspiring filmmakers to gain knowledge and opportunities. • Putting in the hours of practice and learning from experienced mentors can help filmmakers improve their craft. • Volunteering and helping others in the industry can lead to valuable connections and opportunities. • Filmmakers have the power to tell stories that promote social justice and shed light on marginalized communities. • Continuous education and staying informed about social issues are crucial for documentary filmmakers.

DocuView Dèjà Vu:

Alex:

  1. Searching for Sugar Man, 2012, PG-13, 96mins, Watch on Prime, IMDB Link: Searching for Sugar Man (2012) - IMDb
  2. The Last Repair Shop, 2023, 39 mins, PG, Watch on Hulu, IMDB Link: The Last Repair Shop (2023) - IMDb

Christian:

  1. The Trial of Adolf Eichmann, 1997, 90mins, Watch on Netflix, IMDB Link: The Trial of Adolf Eichmann (TV Movie 1997) - IMDb

Timecodes

00:00 Introduction 00:27 Introduction of Guest and Film 03:08 Guest's Background and Journey into Filmmaking 08:28 Transition to Editing and Working on '13th' 14:14 Transition to Producing and "Ifine: Beauty" 20:49 Passion for Social Justice and Racial Justice 24:07 Origin of "Ifine: Beauty" and Topic of Skin Bleaching 30:54 Life Cycle of the Film and Festival Circuit 35:22 Availability of the Film and Social Media 38:48 Reception of the Film in Sierra Leone 42:52 Tips for New Filmmakers 47:35 Importance of Education and Social Justice Filmmaking 48:26 Closing Remarks and Call to Action

]]>In this episode, host Christian Taylor interviews Alex Ivany, a visual storyteller, about his journey in the documentary filmmaking industry. Alex shares his passion for social and racial justice, which led him to work on projects that shed light on marginalized communities. He discusses his role as a producer and editor on the film "Ifine: Beauty", which explores the issue of skin bleaching in Sierra Leone. Alex also provides tips for aspiring filmmakers, emphasizing the importance of networking, continuous learning, and finding a mentor. The episode concludes with a call to support the film and join the documentary filmmaking community. Alex Ivany's email: ivanyproductions@gmail.com

Takeaways

• Networking and asking questions are essential for aspiring filmmakers to gain knowledge and opportunities. • Putting in the hours of practice and learning from experienced mentors can help filmmakers improve their craft. • Volunteering and helping others in the industry can lead to valuable connections and opportunities. • Filmmakers have the power to tell stories that promote social justice and shed light on marginalized communities. • Continuous education and staying informed about social issues are crucial for documentary filmmakers.

DocuView Dèjà Vu:

Alex:

  1. Searching for Sugar Man, 2012, PG-13, 96mins, Watch on Prime, IMDB Link: Searching for Sugar Man (2012) - IMDb
  2. The Last Repair Shop, 2023, 39 mins, PG, Watch on Hulu, IMDB Link: The Last Repair Shop (2023) - IMDb

Christian:

  1. The Trial of Adolf Eichmann, 1997, 90mins, Watch on Netflix, IMDB Link: The Trial of Adolf Eichmann (TV Movie 1997) - IMDb

Timecodes

00:00 Introduction 00:27 Introduction of Guest and Film 03:08 Guest's Background and Journey into Filmmaking 08:28 Transition to Editing and Working on '13th' 14:14 Transition to Producing and "Ifine: Beauty" 20:49 Passion for Social Justice and Racial Justice 24:07 Origin of "Ifine: Beauty" and Topic of Skin Bleaching 30:54 Life Cycle of the Film and Festival Circuit 35:22 Availability of the Film and Social Media 38:48 Reception of the Film in Sierra Leone 42:52 Tips for New Filmmakers 47:35 Importance of Education and Social Justice Filmmaking 48:26 Closing Remarks and Call to Action

]]>68463b4b-317e-40d6-9f2c-6d1dc5fa21a3Thu, 11 Apr 2024 18:34:00 -050055:30falsefull221221Filming Nikki Giovanni: The Directors of Going to MarsFilming Nikki Giovanni: The Directors of Going to MarsWhat do you do when the woman at the center of your documentary tells you, plainly, where she will not go?

For Joe Brewster and Michèle Stephenson, the answer shaped their whole film. Going to Mars: The Nikki Giovanni Project is their portrait of the poet Nikki Giovanni, and Nikki was clear from the start that she would not relive her pain on camera. So they listened. As Joe says, every moment of pain she has lived through is written in a poem, and the poems became the road map.

In Episode 220, Christian sits down with Joe and Michèle, the married directing duo behind Going to Mars and Black Girls Play: The Story of Hand Games, both shortlisted for the 96th Academy Awards. Neither started in film. Michèle was a human rights lawyer who wondered how much change she could really make through legal cases. Joe was a psychiatrist, the son of a preacher in Los Angeles, who realized his father's sermons about Bible characters were really stories about the people in the pews. He decided telling stories could have more impact than his practice.

They call themselves tonal filmmakers. Michèle describes a Black Atlantic aesthetic in their editing, polyrhythmic rather than simply rhythmic, where archival footage, new footage and Nikki's poetry are "in conversation with each other" instead of one illustrating another. They talk about American Promise, the film they made over 14 years following their son and his best friend through school, and Stateless, about anti-Blackness in the Dominican Republic. And they explain why Nikki's clear boundaries turned out to be a gift, "much better than having to deal with passive aggressive yeses," as Michèle puts it.

WATCH THE FILM: Going to Mars: The Nikki Giovanni Project streams on HBO Max.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • Why Michèle left human rights law for documentary film
  • How Joe's father's sermons taught him what a story can do
  • What happened after American Promise reached families and educators
  • What Joe means when he says they are tonal filmmakers
  • What a Black Atlantic aesthetic looks like in the edit
  • How they built the archival footage without Nikki's personal archive
  • How they handled the ethics of not pushing a subject to relive trauma

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Who directed Going to Mars: The Nikki Giovanni Project?

Joe Brewster and Michèle Stephenson, a married directing team, wrote and directed it. The film premiered at Sundance in January 2023, where it won the Grand Jury Prize for U.S. Documentary, and it was shortlisted for the 96th Academy Awards. HBO Documentary Films released it, and it debuted on HBO on January 8, 2024. Taraji P. Henson voices Nikki Giovanni's poetry.

How did the filmmakers handle Nikki Giovanni's refusal to talk about pain?

Joe Brewster says Nikki made it clear she would not go to painful places on camera, so he fell back on his training as a physician: "shut up and listen." She gave them the road map. Every moment of pain in her life is written in a poem, so the film tells those moments through her poetry. Michèle Stephenson says that clarity was a gift.

What archival footage is in Going to Mars?

Michèle Stephenson says Nikki did not give them access to her personal archive, so only a few family photographs appear. Their archival producer dug into collections of Black family footage from across the United States and beyond. The directors stitched it together to show celebration, joy, dance and family, so that Nikki's personal poetry would be felt as a collective experience, with the images in conversation with the poems.

What is American Promise about?

American Promise is a documentary by Joe Brewster and Michèle Stephenson that follows their son and his best friend through New York's independent schools. Joe says they filmed the boys for 14 years. It won a Special Jury Prize at Sundance, and Joe says the award that mattered most was the attention it got from Black families and educators across the country, and he says laws were written to address the discipline gap the film showed.

DOCUVIEW DEJA VIEW PICKS

  • I Called Him Morgan (2016), directed by Kasper Collin. Michèle's pick, about jazz trumpeter Lee Morgan, told through the recorded voice of Helen Morgan, the woman who loved him and killed him.
  • Making "Do the Right Thing" (1989), by St. Clair Bourne. Joe's first pick, by the filmmaker who mentored him and Michèle early in their career.
  • Slaying Goliath (2008), by Joe Brewster and Michèle Stephenson. Joe's second pick, their own early film following a team of fifth graders to a national basketball championship in Florida, which he says taught them the most.

See every guest pick on the DocuView Deja View page.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen on your favorite app: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT

Documentary First: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUESTS

Joe Brewster is a psychiatrist and filmmaker. He earned his medical degree at Harvard Medical School before turning to film. His fiction feature The Keeper (1996) premiered at Sundance and earned him an Independent Spirit Award nomination. Joe on Wikipedia

Michèle Stephenson is a filmmaker and former human rights attorney who studied at McGill University and Columbia Law School. She is a 2016 Guggenheim Fellow. Her film Stateless was nominated for Best Feature Length Documentary at the Canadian Screen Awards. Michèle on Wikipedia

Together they founded Rada Studio, which supports Black storytelling. Their films include Slaying Goliath (2008), American Promise (2013; Sundance Special Jury Prize), Stateless (2020), Black Girls Play: The Story of Hand Games (2023, ESPN 30 for 30; Tribeca premiere) and Going to Mars: The Nikki Giovanni Project (2023).

About the film's subject: Nikki Giovanni died on December 9, 2024, at 81, later the same year this conversation was released.

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>What do you do when the woman at the center of your documentary tells you, plainly, where she will not go?

For Joe Brewster and Michèle Stephenson, the answer shaped their whole film. Going to Mars: The Nikki Giovanni Project is their portrait of the poet Nikki Giovanni, and Nikki was clear from the start that she would not relive her pain on camera. So they listened. As Joe says, every moment of pain she has lived through is written in a poem, and the poems became the road map.

In Episode 220, Christian sits down with Joe and Michèle, the married directing duo behind Going to Mars and Black Girls Play: The Story of Hand Games, both shortlisted for the 96th Academy Awards. Neither started in film. Michèle was a human rights lawyer who wondered how much change she could really make through legal cases. Joe was a psychiatrist, the son of a preacher in Los Angeles, who realized his father's sermons about Bible characters were really stories about the people in the pews. He decided telling stories could have more impact than his practice.

They call themselves tonal filmmakers. Michèle describes a Black Atlantic aesthetic in their editing, polyrhythmic rather than simply rhythmic, where archival footage, new footage and Nikki's poetry are "in conversation with each other" instead of one illustrating another. They talk about American Promise, the film they made over 14 years following their son and his best friend through school, and Stateless, about anti-Blackness in the Dominican Republic. And they explain why Nikki's clear boundaries turned out to be a gift, "much better than having to deal with passive aggressive yeses," as Michèle puts it.

WATCH THE FILM: Going to Mars: The Nikki Giovanni Project streams on HBO Max.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • Why Michèle left human rights law for documentary film
  • How Joe's father's sermons taught him what a story can do
  • What happened after American Promise reached families and educators
  • What Joe means when he says they are tonal filmmakers
  • What a Black Atlantic aesthetic looks like in the edit
  • How they built the archival footage without Nikki's personal archive
  • How they handled the ethics of not pushing a subject to relive trauma

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Who directed Going to Mars: The Nikki Giovanni Project?

Joe Brewster and Michèle Stephenson, a married directing team, wrote and directed it. The film premiered at Sundance in January 2023, where it won the Grand Jury Prize for U.S. Documentary, and it was shortlisted for the 96th Academy Awards. HBO Documentary Films released it, and it debuted on HBO on January 8, 2024. Taraji P. Henson voices Nikki Giovanni's poetry.

How did the filmmakers handle Nikki Giovanni's refusal to talk about pain?

Joe Brewster says Nikki made it clear she would not go to painful places on camera, so he fell back on his training as a physician: "shut up and listen." She gave them the road map. Every moment of pain in her life is written in a poem, so the film tells those moments through her poetry. Michèle Stephenson says that clarity was a gift.

What archival footage is in Going to Mars?

Michèle Stephenson says Nikki did not give them access to her personal archive, so only a few family photographs appear. Their archival producer dug into collections of Black family footage from across the United States and beyond. The directors stitched it together to show celebration, joy, dance and family, so that Nikki's personal poetry would be felt as a collective experience, with the images in conversation with the poems.

What is American Promise about?

American Promise is a documentary by Joe Brewster and Michèle Stephenson that follows their son and his best friend through New York's independent schools. Joe says they filmed the boys for 14 years. It won a Special Jury Prize at Sundance, and Joe says the award that mattered most was the attention it got from Black families and educators across the country, and he says laws were written to address the discipline gap the film showed.

DOCUVIEW DEJA VIEW PICKS

  • I Called Him Morgan (2016), directed by Kasper Collin. Michèle's pick, about jazz trumpeter Lee Morgan, told through the recorded voice of Helen Morgan, the woman who loved him and killed him.
  • Making "Do the Right Thing" (1989), by St. Clair Bourne. Joe's first pick, by the filmmaker who mentored him and Michèle early in their career.
  • Slaying Goliath (2008), by Joe Brewster and Michèle Stephenson. Joe's second pick, their own early film following a team of fifth graders to a national basketball championship in Florida, which he says taught them the most.

See every guest pick on the DocuView Deja View page.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen on your favorite app: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT

Documentary First: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUESTS

Joe Brewster is a psychiatrist and filmmaker. He earned his medical degree at Harvard Medical School before turning to film. His fiction feature The Keeper (1996) premiered at Sundance and earned him an Independent Spirit Award nomination. Joe on Wikipedia

Michèle Stephenson is a filmmaker and former human rights attorney who studied at McGill University and Columbia Law School. She is a 2016 Guggenheim Fellow. Her film Stateless was nominated for Best Feature Length Documentary at the Canadian Screen Awards. Michèle on Wikipedia

Together they founded Rada Studio, which supports Black storytelling. Their films include Slaying Goliath (2008), American Promise (2013; Sundance Special Jury Prize), Stateless (2020), Black Girls Play: The Story of Hand Games (2023, ESPN 30 for 30; Tribeca premiere) and Going to Mars: The Nikki Giovanni Project (2023).

About the film's subject: Nikki Giovanni died on December 9, 2024, at 81, later the same year this conversation was released.

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>bba23849-5953-445d-b725-d092ee1b866bThu, 28 Mar 2024 06:54:00 -050040:24falsefull220220Episode 219 | Editor Extraordinaire Yvette AmirianEpisode 219 | Editor Extraordinaire Yvette AmirianIn this episode, host Christian Taylor interviews award-winning editor Yvette Amirian about her journey from documentary to narrative editing. Yvette shares her experiences working on various projects, including "EXmas" and "It Takes a Village". She discusses the differences between editing documentary and narrative films, emphasizing the challenges and rewards of both. Yvette also offers valuable tips for breaking into the film industry, highlighting the importance of building relationships and being kind to others. She shares her perspective on being a woman in the editing industry and the challenges she has faced. The episode concludes with a discussion on choosing the right editing software and the evolution of editing technology. The importance of involving editors from the beginning of a project is emphasized, as well as the value of fresh eyes in the editing process. Yvette recommends the documentaries 'Three Identical Strangers' and 'The Other Side of Home' as must-watch films.

Takeaways:

• Building and maintaining relationships is crucial in the film industry.

• Networking and nurturing genuine connections can lead to opportunities and collaborations.

• Breaking into the film industry requires determination, perseverance, and a willingness to take on various roles and projects.

• Editing documentary and narrative films have different challenges and skill sets.

• Documentaries often require creating a story from scratch, while narratives involve working with scripts and existing footage.

• Living and working in Hollywood can provide unique opportunities and challenges.

• Having a supportive community and network is essential for success.

• Choosing the right editing software depends on the project and industry standards.

• Avid Media Composer is widely used in the industry, but other software like Premiere and DaVinci Resolve also have their merits.

• Early experiences with editing can shape an editor's understanding and appreciation for the craft.

• Involving editors from the beginning of a project can lead to a more cohesive and effective final product.

• Fresh eyes in the editing process can provide valuable perspectives and insights.

DocuView Déjà Vu:

Three Identical Strangers, 2018, 96mins, Watch on Hulu or Prime, IMDB LINK: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7664504/reference/

The Other Side of Home, 2016 - Short Documentary, 40mins, IMDB LINK: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5664922/reference/ Watch on Kanopy: https://www.kanopy.com/en

Time codes:

00:00 Introduction and Patreon Shoutouts

01:32 Introduction of Guest, Yvette Amirian

03:47 Yvette's Journey from Documentary to Narrative Editing

09:15 Differences Between Editing Documentary and Narrative Films

13:18 Balancing Work and Family Life

15:10 Tips for Breaking into the Film Industry

19:36 The Importance of Building and Maintaining Relationships

22:13 The Value of Collaboration and Kindness in the Industry

27:16 Challenges and Progress for Women in the Editing Industry

30:44 Living and Working in Hollywood

39:49 Choosing the Right Editing Software

41:52 Evolution of Editing Software and Yvette's Experience

42:20 Introduction to Editing and Early Experiences

45:04 Discussion of the Film 'It Takes a Village'

50:05 The Importance of Involving Editors from the Beginning

52:21 Documentary Recommendations: 'Three Identical Strangers' and 'The Other Side of Home'

55:56 Conclusion and Appreciation

]]>In this episode, host Christian Taylor interviews award-winning editor Yvette Amirian about her journey from documentary to narrative editing. Yvette shares her experiences working on various projects, including "EXmas" and "It Takes a Village". She discusses the differences between editing documentary and narrative films, emphasizing the challenges and rewards of both. Yvette also offers valuable tips for breaking into the film industry, highlighting the importance of building relationships and being kind to others. She shares her perspective on being a woman in the editing industry and the challenges she has faced. The episode concludes with a discussion on choosing the right editing software and the evolution of editing technology. The importance of involving editors from the beginning of a project is emphasized, as well as the value of fresh eyes in the editing process. Yvette recommends the documentaries 'Three Identical Strangers' and 'The Other Side of Home' as must-watch films.

Takeaways:

• Building and maintaining relationships is crucial in the film industry.

• Networking and nurturing genuine connections can lead to opportunities and collaborations.

• Breaking into the film industry requires determination, perseverance, and a willingness to take on various roles and projects.

• Editing documentary and narrative films have different challenges and skill sets.

• Documentaries often require creating a story from scratch, while narratives involve working with scripts and existing footage.

• Living and working in Hollywood can provide unique opportunities and challenges.

• Having a supportive community and network is essential for success.

• Choosing the right editing software depends on the project and industry standards.

• Avid Media Composer is widely used in the industry, but other software like Premiere and DaVinci Resolve also have their merits.

• Early experiences with editing can shape an editor's understanding and appreciation for the craft.

• Involving editors from the beginning of a project can lead to a more cohesive and effective final product.

• Fresh eyes in the editing process can provide valuable perspectives and insights.

DocuView Déjà Vu:

Three Identical Strangers, 2018, 96mins, Watch on Hulu or Prime, IMDB LINK: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7664504/reference/

The Other Side of Home, 2016 - Short Documentary, 40mins, IMDB LINK: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5664922/reference/ Watch on Kanopy: https://www.kanopy.com/en

Time codes:

00:00 Introduction and Patreon Shoutouts

01:32 Introduction of Guest, Yvette Amirian

03:47 Yvette's Journey from Documentary to Narrative Editing

09:15 Differences Between Editing Documentary and Narrative Films

13:18 Balancing Work and Family Life

15:10 Tips for Breaking into the Film Industry

19:36 The Importance of Building and Maintaining Relationships

22:13 The Value of Collaboration and Kindness in the Industry

27:16 Challenges and Progress for Women in the Editing Industry

30:44 Living and Working in Hollywood

39:49 Choosing the Right Editing Software

41:52 Evolution of Editing Software and Yvette's Experience

42:20 Introduction to Editing and Early Experiences

45:04 Discussion of the Film 'It Takes a Village'

50:05 The Importance of Involving Editors from the Beginning

52:21 Documentary Recommendations: 'Three Identical Strangers' and 'The Other Side of Home'

55:56 Conclusion and Appreciation

]]>71d3b82c-a22b-4d9e-b2a5-169844cb32fcFri, 15 Mar 2024 00:22:00 -050056:49falsefull219219Why Some Filmmakers Never See a Check, Part 2Why Some Filmmakers Never See a Check, Part 2What does a distributor wish every filmmaker understood before the first statement arrives?

Distribution expenses are where a lot of filmmakers lose track of their money. They hear stories of films that never paid a dime and assume they're being taken advantage of. Joe Amodei explains what distribution expenses actually pay for, how some companies pad them, and what to ask when a charge doesn't add up.

In Episode 218, Christian sits down again with Joe Amodei of Virgil Films, picking up the same day they recorded Part 1. Joe explains why Virgil releases two or three films a month, when some companies release 20, and why he hesitates every time a brand new streaming platform asks for films. He predicts more consolidation in 2024, with Paramount and Showtime already combined and Hulu titles showing up next to Disney classics, and says Netflix may be more open to licensing a really good documentary than it was a year ago.

Then the part filmmakers rarely hear out loud. Joe walks through the artwork, the masters and the quality control checks that add up to distribution expenses, and admits some distributors bill $5,000 for something that cost $500. Christian shares what she's learned from her own release: monthly statements she can question, advice from Joe's partner Tim Maggiani that paid advertising wasn't worth it, and the work her team is doing to book screenings. Joe puts it plainly: nobody knows the film better than the filmmaker. Then a story from his days distributing Major League Baseball tapes, and a few Oscar picks.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • Why Virgil releases two or three films a month
  • Why Joe hesitates when a new streaming platform comes calling
  • What consolidation could mean for filmmakers in 2024
  • Where a documentary's revenue comes from now
  • How one-night theater screenings help a release
  • Why filmmakers have to work their own release
  • What distribution expenses pay for, from poster art to masters
  • How some distributors pad expenses, and who pays for an audit
  • Why a $25,000 marketing charge should raise questions
  • The trades Joe reads every morning

CHAPTERS

0:00 Two Films a Month

6:00 Consolidation Is Coming

10:30 Revenue Comes From Rentals

16:02 Where Does Money Go?

21:48 $25,000 Marketing Charge

24:34 Hall of Fame Tapes

28:36 Trades, Oscars, Emmys

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What are distribution expenses?

Joe Amodei of Virgil Films told Documentary First in 2024 that distribution expenses are the costs of getting a film ready for each platform, deducted from the film's proceeds. They include artwork made to each platform's specs (Netflix, he says, wants 19 versions of the poster art), a digital house creating separate masters for Netflix, iTunes, Fandango at Home and others, and redoing any master that fails quality control.

Why don't some filmmakers get paid by their distributor?

Christian Taylor told Documentary First in 2024 she has heard filmmakers say they never received a check because of distribution expenses. Joe Amodei of Virgil Films said real costs come out of the proceeds first, but some distributors pad them, billing $5,000 for something that cost $500. At Virgil, he says, you can call and go over your statement line by line. An audit is possible, but the filmmaker pays for it unless it finds the distributor did wrong.

Should a distributor charge $25,000 for marketing?

Joe Amodei of Virgil Films told Documentary First in 2024 that filmmakers have come to him after being charged a $25,000 marketing cost, and his question is always where it was spent. Ten years ago there were magazines, newspapers and late night TV spots to buy. Those don't exist the way they did. Virgil's contracts say it won't hire a PR firm, and he says paying $15,000 for PR means you haven't done your homework.

How does a documentary make money today?

Speaking in early 2024, Joe Amodei of Virgil Films told Documentary First that in most cases a film's revenue comes from rentals and sales on iTunes, Amazon, Fandango at Home and similar sites, so marketing and social media should point there. One-night screenings in art house theaters, often empty early in the week, bring in some money and help the transactional release. A big streaming deal is no longer something to count on.

Listen and Follow

https://pod.fo/e/4a7ff1

Support the show

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect

All social platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

About the Guest

Joe Amodei is the founder and CEO of Virgil Films and Entertainment, a traditional distributor that releases two or three films a month so it can build a plan with each filmmaker. Earlier in his career he distributed Major League Baseball tapes. Virgil's releases include Super Size Me, Restrepo, Forks Over Knives and I Am Chris Farley.

Virgil Films | Instagram | X Joe invites filmmakers to reach him directly at joe@virgilfilmsent.com.

About Virgil Films

Virgil Films and Entertainment is a traditional distribution company founded by Joe Amodei. It acquires the rights to documentaries and independent films and places them on digital platforms, TV, DVD, in theaters and with international buyers. Its releases include Super Size Me, Restrepo, Forks Over Knives and I Am Chris Farley, and it distributes Christian's film The Girl Who Wore Freedom. Full disclosure: Virgil Films distributes The Girl Who Wore Freedom and now sponsors Documentary First. This episode has no sponsor read.

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned


]]>What does a distributor wish every filmmaker understood before the first statement arrives?

Distribution expenses are where a lot of filmmakers lose track of their money. They hear stories of films that never paid a dime and assume they're being taken advantage of. Joe Amodei explains what distribution expenses actually pay for, how some companies pad them, and what to ask when a charge doesn't add up.

In Episode 218, Christian sits down again with Joe Amodei of Virgil Films, picking up the same day they recorded Part 1. Joe explains why Virgil releases two or three films a month, when some companies release 20, and why he hesitates every time a brand new streaming platform asks for films. He predicts more consolidation in 2024, with Paramount and Showtime already combined and Hulu titles showing up next to Disney classics, and says Netflix may be more open to licensing a really good documentary than it was a year ago.

Then the part filmmakers rarely hear out loud. Joe walks through the artwork, the masters and the quality control checks that add up to distribution expenses, and admits some distributors bill $5,000 for something that cost $500. Christian shares what she's learned from her own release: monthly statements she can question, advice from Joe's partner Tim Maggiani that paid advertising wasn't worth it, and the work her team is doing to book screenings. Joe puts it plainly: nobody knows the film better than the filmmaker. Then a story from his days distributing Major League Baseball tapes, and a few Oscar picks.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • Why Virgil releases two or three films a month
  • Why Joe hesitates when a new streaming platform comes calling
  • What consolidation could mean for filmmakers in 2024
  • Where a documentary's revenue comes from now
  • How one-night theater screenings help a release
  • Why filmmakers have to work their own release
  • What distribution expenses pay for, from poster art to masters
  • How some distributors pad expenses, and who pays for an audit
  • Why a $25,000 marketing charge should raise questions
  • The trades Joe reads every morning

CHAPTERS

0:00 Two Films a Month

6:00 Consolidation Is Coming

10:30 Revenue Comes From Rentals

16:02 Where Does Money Go?

21:48 $25,000 Marketing Charge

24:34 Hall of Fame Tapes

28:36 Trades, Oscars, Emmys

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What are distribution expenses?

Joe Amodei of Virgil Films told Documentary First in 2024 that distribution expenses are the costs of getting a film ready for each platform, deducted from the film's proceeds. They include artwork made to each platform's specs (Netflix, he says, wants 19 versions of the poster art), a digital house creating separate masters for Netflix, iTunes, Fandango at Home and others, and redoing any master that fails quality control.

Why don't some filmmakers get paid by their distributor?

Christian Taylor told Documentary First in 2024 she has heard filmmakers say they never received a check because of distribution expenses. Joe Amodei of Virgil Films said real costs come out of the proceeds first, but some distributors pad them, billing $5,000 for something that cost $500. At Virgil, he says, you can call and go over your statement line by line. An audit is possible, but the filmmaker pays for it unless it finds the distributor did wrong.

Should a distributor charge $25,000 for marketing?

Joe Amodei of Virgil Films told Documentary First in 2024 that filmmakers have come to him after being charged a $25,000 marketing cost, and his question is always where it was spent. Ten years ago there were magazines, newspapers and late night TV spots to buy. Those don't exist the way they did. Virgil's contracts say it won't hire a PR firm, and he says paying $15,000 for PR means you haven't done your homework.

How does a documentary make money today?

Speaking in early 2024, Joe Amodei of Virgil Films told Documentary First that in most cases a film's revenue comes from rentals and sales on iTunes, Amazon, Fandango at Home and similar sites, so marketing and social media should point there. One-night screenings in art house theaters, often empty early in the week, bring in some money and help the transactional release. A big streaming deal is no longer something to count on.

Listen and Follow

https://pod.fo/e/4a7ff1

Support the show

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect

All social platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

About the Guest

Joe Amodei is the founder and CEO of Virgil Films and Entertainment, a traditional distributor that releases two or three films a month so it can build a plan with each filmmaker. Earlier in his career he distributed Major League Baseball tapes. Virgil's releases include Super Size Me, Restrepo, Forks Over Knives and I Am Chris Farley.

Virgil Films | Instagram | X Joe invites filmmakers to reach him directly at joe@virgilfilmsent.com.

About Virgil Films

Virgil Films and Entertainment is a traditional distribution company founded by Joe Amodei. It acquires the rights to documentaries and independent films and places them on digital platforms, TV, DVD, in theaters and with international buyers. Its releases include Super Size Me, Restrepo, Forks Over Knives and I Am Chris Farley, and it distributes Christian's film The Girl Who Wore Freedom. Full disclosure: Virgil Films distributes The Girl Who Wore Freedom and now sponsors Documentary First. This episode has no sponsor read.

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned


]]>e62da7cb-4b41-4983-b1b7-6a3d1fe4f822Thu, 29 Feb 2024 06:44:00 -060034:26falsefull218218Episode 217 | Award-Winning Cinematography w/ Laela KilbournEpisode 217 | Award-Winning Cinematography w/ Laela KilbournIn this episode, Christian and Chad interview award-winning cinematographer Laela Kilbourn. They discuss her work on the documentary film Girl State, which premiered at Sundance 2024. Laela shares her experiences working with directors and the importance of trust in the DP-director relationship. She also explains the role of prime lenses in cinematography and how they can create a more cinematic look. Laela shares her journey in the film industry, from starting as a film loader to becoming a cinematographer. She discusses the challenges of advancing in the industry and the need to take risks and make sacrifices to pursue your passion. In this conversation, Laela discusses the challenges of building a stable career in filmmaking and the importance of developing relationships with directors and producers. She shares her experiences with discouragement and the determination that kept her going. The impact of strikes and COVID-19 on the industry is also discussed. Laela emphasizes the changing landscape of filmmaking and the opportunities available to new filmmakers. She provides advice for aspiring filmmakers with limited resources and highlights the importance of collaboration. Last of all, Laela shares her experience filming underground in New York and recommends two documentaries: "Morena's" and "Senna".

DocuView Déjà Vu:

Laela:

  1. Morena(s) 2022. 70 mins, IMDB Link: Morena(s) (2022) - IMDb
  2. Senna 2010, 106mins, Watch on Amazon, IMDB Link: Senna (2010) - IMDb

Chad:

  1. Keys to the City: Chronicles of a NY Locksmith, 2023, 32 mins, Link: Keys to the City: Chronicles of a New York Locksmith

Christian:

  1. Sour Grapes, 2016, 85mins, Watch on multiple streamers (Freevee, Tubi, Plex, Pluto, Roku, Prime) IMDB Link: Sour Grapes (2016) - IMDb
  2. Bottle Shock, 2008, Narrative, 110mins, Watch on multiple streamers (Freevee, Tubi, Plex, Pluto, Roku, Prime) , IMDB Link: Bottle Shock (2008) - IMDb

Takeaways

Trust and collaboration are key in the DP-director relationship. Prime lenses can create a more cinematic look by narrowing the depth of field. Advancing in the film industry often requires taking risks and making sacrifices. Building a client base is crucial for cinematographers.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Patreon Support 01:38 Introducing Layla Kilbourn and Her Work 03:35 Debut of Girl State at Sundance 06:35 Working with a Larger Budget 09:10 Working with Directors as a Cinematographer 12:05 The Importance of Trust in the DP-Director Relationship 14:35 The Role of Prime Lenses in Cinematography 16:37 Layla Kilbourn's Background and Journey in Filmmaking 33:03 Transitioning from Assistant Camera to Cinematographer 38:10 The Challenges of Advancing in the Film Industry 39:50 The Challenges of Building a Stable Career 41:40 Dealing with Discouragement and Persistence 43:18 The Impact of Strikes and COVID-19 on Filmmaking 44:47 The Changing Landscape of Filmmaking 45:38 Advice for Filmmakers with Limited Resources 51:51 The Importance of Collaboration in Filmmaking 54:01 Laela's Experience Filming Underground in New York 59:56 Recommended Documentaries

]]>In this episode, Christian and Chad interview award-winning cinematographer Laela Kilbourn. They discuss her work on the documentary film Girl State, which premiered at Sundance 2024. Laela shares her experiences working with directors and the importance of trust in the DP-director relationship. She also explains the role of prime lenses in cinematography and how they can create a more cinematic look. Laela shares her journey in the film industry, from starting as a film loader to becoming a cinematographer. She discusses the challenges of advancing in the industry and the need to take risks and make sacrifices to pursue your passion. In this conversation, Laela discusses the challenges of building a stable career in filmmaking and the importance of developing relationships with directors and producers. She shares her experiences with discouragement and the determination that kept her going. The impact of strikes and COVID-19 on the industry is also discussed. Laela emphasizes the changing landscape of filmmaking and the opportunities available to new filmmakers. She provides advice for aspiring filmmakers with limited resources and highlights the importance of collaboration. Last of all, Laela shares her experience filming underground in New York and recommends two documentaries: "Morena's" and "Senna".

DocuView Déjà Vu:

Laela:

  1. Morena(s) 2022. 70 mins, IMDB Link: Morena(s) (2022) - IMDb
  2. Senna 2010, 106mins, Watch on Amazon, IMDB Link: Senna (2010) - IMDb

Chad:

  1. Keys to the City: Chronicles of a NY Locksmith, 2023, 32 mins, Link: Keys to the City: Chronicles of a New York Locksmith

Christian:

  1. Sour Grapes, 2016, 85mins, Watch on multiple streamers (Freevee, Tubi, Plex, Pluto, Roku, Prime) IMDB Link: Sour Grapes (2016) - IMDb
  2. Bottle Shock, 2008, Narrative, 110mins, Watch on multiple streamers (Freevee, Tubi, Plex, Pluto, Roku, Prime) , IMDB Link: Bottle Shock (2008) - IMDb

Takeaways

Trust and collaboration are key in the DP-director relationship. Prime lenses can create a more cinematic look by narrowing the depth of field. Advancing in the film industry often requires taking risks and making sacrifices. Building a client base is crucial for cinematographers.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Patreon Support 01:38 Introducing Layla Kilbourn and Her Work 03:35 Debut of Girl State at Sundance 06:35 Working with a Larger Budget 09:10 Working with Directors as a Cinematographer 12:05 The Importance of Trust in the DP-Director Relationship 14:35 The Role of Prime Lenses in Cinematography 16:37 Layla Kilbourn's Background and Journey in Filmmaking 33:03 Transitioning from Assistant Camera to Cinematographer 38:10 The Challenges of Advancing in the Film Industry 39:50 The Challenges of Building a Stable Career 41:40 Dealing with Discouragement and Persistence 43:18 The Impact of Strikes and COVID-19 on Filmmaking 44:47 The Changing Landscape of Filmmaking 45:38 Advice for Filmmakers with Limited Resources 51:51 The Importance of Collaboration in Filmmaking 54:01 Laela's Experience Filming Underground in New York 59:56 Recommended Documentaries

]]>1f2b7a83-1a11-4edd-86b3-5309158273ffWed, 14 Feb 2024 05:13:00 -060001:06:27falsefull217217Self-Distribute or Sign? A Distributor's Answer, Part 1Self-Distribute or Sign? A Distributor's Answer, Part 1How did a man who once told Netflix nobody would watch movies on a computer end up running a company known as "the documentary people"?

Film distribution is the part of filmmaking nobody teaches you. When your film is finished, you can sign with a distributor, sell your rights piece by piece, or do it all yourself. Joe Amodei has spent about 40 years in the business, and he walks through what each choice really means.

In Episode 216, Christian sits down with Joe Amodei of Virgil Films, with co-host Jason Rugg off for the day. Joe started Virgil 20 years ago, after working at home entertainment companies for Ted Turner and Barry Diller. One of his first acquisitions was a little documentary called Super Size Me, and it turned a very small company into one everybody in the industry knew. He also tells the story of a phone call from his friend Ted Sarandos, who asked for 100 DVDs for something called streaming.

Christian names the fear a lot of filmmakers carry right now: they don't trust distributors, it's hard to vet the ones making offers, and there's a big push to self-distribute. Joe doesn't dodge it. He says Hollywood has a long history of not paying people, and he lays out what self-distribution really costs. Christian adds her own view: if you self-distribute, you're no longer a filmmaker, you've become a business person. It's part of why she has Joe on the show. The more people get to know that a distributor is a real person, the better. They close with Joe's DocuView Deja View pick, and a surprise: George Stevens filmed in Carentan, the town at the center of Christian's next film.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • Which rights a film distributor buys, from streaming to cruise ships
  • How Super Size Me turned Virgil into "the documentary people"
  • The Netflix phone call, and what Blockbuster missed
  • How to pitch your film to Virgil
  • Why Joe doesn't believe aggregators will replace distributors
  • Why so many Sundance films arrive already sold
  • Why buyers don't trust festival standing ovations
  • What a film market screening costs and what you get for it
  • What self-distribution really costs, in money and in time
  • Where George Stevens filmed after Normandy

CHAPTERS

0:00 Selling Every Right

6:11 The Netflix Phone Call

13:57 Will Aggregators Replace Distributors?

16:24 Already Sold at Sundance

19:37 Buying a Market Screening

22:49 Should You Self-Distribute?

27:52 Finding Honest Partners

31:09 George Stevens' War Footage

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What rights does a film distributor buy?

Joe Amodei of Virgil Films told Documentary First in 2024 that a traditional distributor negotiates for the rights to put a film on digital platforms, sell it to TV channels, release it on DVD and in theaters, and sell it to the educational market, cruise ships, airlines and international buyers. A filmmaker can sell those rights to five or six different companies, or choose one distributor that handles them all.

Will aggregators replace film distributors?

Joe Amodei of Virgil Films told Documentary First in 2024 that he doesn't agree at all. Aggregators have always existed, he says, holding dozens of films that are often not bankable. A buyer doesn't want to scroll through 40 or 50 titles with no one promoting them. Meetings where someone actually discusses the film will always be the best way, which is why Joe still walks into Netflix, Hulu, Apple and Amazon in person.

Should you self-distribute your documentary?

Joe Amodei of Virgil Films told Documentary First in 2024 that platforms like Amazon and iTunes will offer you a split nowhere near as favorable as a distributor gets, and you'll be on the hook for everything, including delivery. Costs can run higher too: one filmmaker told him she pays $2 a DVD, where he believes Virgil pays 90 cents. Christian Taylor adds that if you self-distribute, you've changed jobs.

How much does it cost to screen a film at a film market?

Joe Amodei of Virgil Films told Documentary First in 2024 that you submit your film to the market, and they say yes because they want films. He believed two screenings cost somewhere around $1,200, and one about $700. That gets you a listing in the market's book, on its website and on Cinando. He has done it with two films: one went nowhere, and the other landed a distributor in France.

Are the films at Sundance already sold?

Christian Taylor told Documentary First listeners in 2024 that it can seem that way. Joe Amodei of Virgil Films explained that Sundance is a public festival that lives on ticket sales, so a hot film from a streamer sells out screenings, while buyers go to separate industry screenings. Festival crowds are biased, he says, often with the cast in the room, so a standing ovation tells a buyer little about the box office.

DocuView Deja View Picks

Joe Amodei: George Stevens: A Filmmaker's Journey, directed by George Stevens Jr.

Listen and Follow

https://pod.fo/e/4a7ff8

Support the show

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect

All social platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

About the Guest

Joe Amodei is the founder and CEO of Virgil Films and Entertainment, which marked its 20th anniversary in October 2023. He has been in the business since about 1985, starting at a video store, and worked for Ted Turner's home entertainment division and Barry Diller's USA Home Entertainment. Virgil's releases include Super Size Me and Restrepo, and Joe believes it was the second company to give Netflix films for streaming.

Virgil Films | Instagram | X Joe invites filmmakers to reach him directly at joe@virgilfilmsent.com.

About Virgil Films

Virgil Films and Entertainment is a traditional distribution company founded by Joe Amodei. It acquires the rights to documentaries and independent films and places them on digital platforms, TV, DVD, in theaters and with international buyers. Its releases include Super Size Me, Restrepo, Forks Over Knives and I Am Chris Farley, and it distributes Christian's film The Girl Who Wore Freedom. Full disclosure: Virgil Films distributes The Girl Who Wore Freedom and now sponsors Documentary First. This episode has no sponsor read.

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned


]]>How did a man who once told Netflix nobody would watch movies on a computer end up running a company known as "the documentary people"?

Film distribution is the part of filmmaking nobody teaches you. When your film is finished, you can sign with a distributor, sell your rights piece by piece, or do it all yourself. Joe Amodei has spent about 40 years in the business, and he walks through what each choice really means.

In Episode 216, Christian sits down with Joe Amodei of Virgil Films, with co-host Jason Rugg off for the day. Joe started Virgil 20 years ago, after working at home entertainment companies for Ted Turner and Barry Diller. One of his first acquisitions was a little documentary called Super Size Me, and it turned a very small company into one everybody in the industry knew. He also tells the story of a phone call from his friend Ted Sarandos, who asked for 100 DVDs for something called streaming.

Christian names the fear a lot of filmmakers carry right now: they don't trust distributors, it's hard to vet the ones making offers, and there's a big push to self-distribute. Joe doesn't dodge it. He says Hollywood has a long history of not paying people, and he lays out what self-distribution really costs. Christian adds her own view: if you self-distribute, you're no longer a filmmaker, you've become a business person. It's part of why she has Joe on the show. The more people get to know that a distributor is a real person, the better. They close with Joe's DocuView Deja View pick, and a surprise: George Stevens filmed in Carentan, the town at the center of Christian's next film.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • Which rights a film distributor buys, from streaming to cruise ships
  • How Super Size Me turned Virgil into "the documentary people"
  • The Netflix phone call, and what Blockbuster missed
  • How to pitch your film to Virgil
  • Why Joe doesn't believe aggregators will replace distributors
  • Why so many Sundance films arrive already sold
  • Why buyers don't trust festival standing ovations
  • What a film market screening costs and what you get for it
  • What self-distribution really costs, in money and in time
  • Where George Stevens filmed after Normandy

CHAPTERS

0:00 Selling Every Right

6:11 The Netflix Phone Call

13:57 Will Aggregators Replace Distributors?

16:24 Already Sold at Sundance

19:37 Buying a Market Screening

22:49 Should You Self-Distribute?

27:52 Finding Honest Partners

31:09 George Stevens' War Footage

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What rights does a film distributor buy?

Joe Amodei of Virgil Films told Documentary First in 2024 that a traditional distributor negotiates for the rights to put a film on digital platforms, sell it to TV channels, release it on DVD and in theaters, and sell it to the educational market, cruise ships, airlines and international buyers. A filmmaker can sell those rights to five or six different companies, or choose one distributor that handles them all.

Will aggregators replace film distributors?

Joe Amodei of Virgil Films told Documentary First in 2024 that he doesn't agree at all. Aggregators have always existed, he says, holding dozens of films that are often not bankable. A buyer doesn't want to scroll through 40 or 50 titles with no one promoting them. Meetings where someone actually discusses the film will always be the best way, which is why Joe still walks into Netflix, Hulu, Apple and Amazon in person.

Should you self-distribute your documentary?

Joe Amodei of Virgil Films told Documentary First in 2024 that platforms like Amazon and iTunes will offer you a split nowhere near as favorable as a distributor gets, and you'll be on the hook for everything, including delivery. Costs can run higher too: one filmmaker told him she pays $2 a DVD, where he believes Virgil pays 90 cents. Christian Taylor adds that if you self-distribute, you've changed jobs.

How much does it cost to screen a film at a film market?

Joe Amodei of Virgil Films told Documentary First in 2024 that you submit your film to the market, and they say yes because they want films. He believed two screenings cost somewhere around $1,200, and one about $700. That gets you a listing in the market's book, on its website and on Cinando. He has done it with two films: one went nowhere, and the other landed a distributor in France.

Are the films at Sundance already sold?

Christian Taylor told Documentary First listeners in 2024 that it can seem that way. Joe Amodei of Virgil Films explained that Sundance is a public festival that lives on ticket sales, so a hot film from a streamer sells out screenings, while buyers go to separate industry screenings. Festival crowds are biased, he says, often with the cast in the room, so a standing ovation tells a buyer little about the box office.

DocuView Deja View Picks

Joe Amodei: George Stevens: A Filmmaker's Journey, directed by George Stevens Jr.

Listen and Follow

https://pod.fo/e/4a7ff8

Support the show

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect

All social platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

About the Guest

Joe Amodei is the founder and CEO of Virgil Films and Entertainment, which marked its 20th anniversary in October 2023. He has been in the business since about 1985, starting at a video store, and worked for Ted Turner's home entertainment division and Barry Diller's USA Home Entertainment. Virgil's releases include Super Size Me and Restrepo, and Joe believes it was the second company to give Netflix films for streaming.

Virgil Films | Instagram | X Joe invites filmmakers to reach him directly at joe@virgilfilmsent.com.

About Virgil Films

Virgil Films and Entertainment is a traditional distribution company founded by Joe Amodei. It acquires the rights to documentaries and independent films and places them on digital platforms, TV, DVD, in theaters and with international buyers. Its releases include Super Size Me, Restrepo, Forks Over Knives and I Am Chris Farley, and it distributes Christian's film The Girl Who Wore Freedom. Full disclosure: Virgil Films distributes The Girl Who Wore Freedom and now sponsors Documentary First. This episode has no sponsor read.

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned


]]>73572deb-f08d-42d4-b2fc-1d27a3d648ecThu, 01 Feb 2024 08:25:00 -060038:17falsefull216216Goodbye, George: Remembering WWII Veteran George CiampaGoodbye, George: Remembering WWII Veteran George CiampaHow do you say goodbye to a World War II veteran who became your friend?

Christian Taylor met George Ciampa at a dinner in Normandy. A producer on The Girl Who Wore Freedom told her to look for a World War II veteran who had become a filmmaker, and Christian couldn't find him: the man she was pointed to, in black glasses and a baseball cap, looked 65 or 70, and she couldn't believe it when she heard how old he was. George had served in the 607th Graves Registration Company from Normandy to the end of the war, and at 81 he started making documentaries about the price of freedom. He came on Documentary First for five episodes.

In Episode 215, recorded in January 2024, Christian and Jason Rugg share the news that George died on January 3, 2024, at 98, peacefully, surrounded by his loved ones. Christian remembers the first time she met him, his six documentaries and why he stands for her as a representative of everyone who fought and died for our freedom. Then the episode re-airs George's first conversation with the show, Episode 115, in full: his Boston childhood, the Douglas Aircraft plant, Exercise Tiger, landing on Utah Beach, the first temporary cemeteries in Normandy, and the day he broke down and a lieutenant sent him back to work.

The episode opens with Christian's news for 2024, the 80th anniversary of D-Day: a pending deal with Canal+ to bring The Girl Who Wore Freedom to French-speaking countries, a possible deal with American public television, and producer David Paterson's push to get the film into more theaters.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How Christian met George Ciampa in Normandy, and why she couldn't find him
  • The six documentaries George made after he turned 81
  • How a boy from Boston ended up in a World War II graves registration company
  • What happened to the 607th Graves Registration Company in Exercise Tiger
  • What wading ashore on Utah Beach and starting the first temporary cemeteries was like
  • Why the markers in American military cemeteries show no date of birth

CHAPTERS

0:00 2024 and the 80th Anniversary of D-Day

2:10 Remembering George Ciampa

7:16 Born in Boston, One of 10 Children

11:22 From Aircraft Plant to Graves Registration

16:21 Exercise Tiger and an English Family

21:03 Crossing the Channel Under Fire

24:19 Wading Ashore on Utah Beach

29:16 Temporary Cemeteries and a Night in Paris

34:02 Breaking Down and the Price of Freedom

37:53 The Bulge and the 40% Who Stayed

44:48 Coming Home to a Christmas Tree in January

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Who was George Ciampa?

George Ciampa was a World War II veteran from Boston who served in the 607th Graves Registration Company, recovering and burying American soldiers from Normandy through Germany. At 81 he began making documentaries about the price of freedom through his nonprofit, Let Freedom Ring. He died on January 3, 2024, at 98.

What documentaries did George Ciampa make?

Christian Taylor lists the six films George Ciampa made: Let Freedom Ring: The Lesson Is Priceless; Let Freedom Ring: Memories of France; Remembering the Fallen Heroes of the Mighty Eighth; They Will Never Forget; America's Finest Ambassadors: Our Armed Forces; and D-Day Veterans Return to Normandy: 75 Years Later.

Is Episode 215 the same as Episode 115?

Episode 215 opens with about seven minutes of new conversation, in which Christian Taylor and Jason Rugg share the news of George Ciampa's death and remember him. It then re-airs Episode 115, George's first interview with the show, in full. George's story continues in Episodes 116, 117, 120 and 121.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/4a7ff9

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

George Ciampa

World War II Veteran and Documentary Filmmaker

George Ciampa was born in Boston in 1925 and grew up in Southern California. He served in the 607th Graves Registration Company from Normandy through the Battle of the Bulge to the end of the war, then spent seven months in the army of occupation in Germany. He later worked for the Los Angeles Times. At 81 he began making documentaries about the price of freedom through his nonprofit, Let Freedom Ring, and shared his stories with students in the United States, France and Belgium. He received the French Legion of Honor and the Croix de Guerre. George Ciampa died on January 3, 2024, at the age of 98.

Website: http://www.letfreedomringforall.org

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

THE GEORGE CIAMPA SERIES


RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>How do you say goodbye to a World War II veteran who became your friend?

Christian Taylor met George Ciampa at a dinner in Normandy. A producer on The Girl Who Wore Freedom told her to look for a World War II veteran who had become a filmmaker, and Christian couldn't find him: the man she was pointed to, in black glasses and a baseball cap, looked 65 or 70, and she couldn't believe it when she heard how old he was. George had served in the 607th Graves Registration Company from Normandy to the end of the war, and at 81 he started making documentaries about the price of freedom. He came on Documentary First for five episodes.

In Episode 215, recorded in January 2024, Christian and Jason Rugg share the news that George died on January 3, 2024, at 98, peacefully, surrounded by his loved ones. Christian remembers the first time she met him, his six documentaries and why he stands for her as a representative of everyone who fought and died for our freedom. Then the episode re-airs George's first conversation with the show, Episode 115, in full: his Boston childhood, the Douglas Aircraft plant, Exercise Tiger, landing on Utah Beach, the first temporary cemeteries in Normandy, and the day he broke down and a lieutenant sent him back to work.

The episode opens with Christian's news for 2024, the 80th anniversary of D-Day: a pending deal with Canal+ to bring The Girl Who Wore Freedom to French-speaking countries, a possible deal with American public television, and producer David Paterson's push to get the film into more theaters.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How Christian met George Ciampa in Normandy, and why she couldn't find him
  • The six documentaries George made after he turned 81
  • How a boy from Boston ended up in a World War II graves registration company
  • What happened to the 607th Graves Registration Company in Exercise Tiger
  • What wading ashore on Utah Beach and starting the first temporary cemeteries was like
  • Why the markers in American military cemeteries show no date of birth

CHAPTERS

0:00 2024 and the 80th Anniversary of D-Day

2:10 Remembering George Ciampa

7:16 Born in Boston, One of 10 Children

11:22 From Aircraft Plant to Graves Registration

16:21 Exercise Tiger and an English Family

21:03 Crossing the Channel Under Fire

24:19 Wading Ashore on Utah Beach

29:16 Temporary Cemeteries and a Night in Paris

34:02 Breaking Down and the Price of Freedom

37:53 The Bulge and the 40% Who Stayed

44:48 Coming Home to a Christmas Tree in January

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Who was George Ciampa?

George Ciampa was a World War II veteran from Boston who served in the 607th Graves Registration Company, recovering and burying American soldiers from Normandy through Germany. At 81 he began making documentaries about the price of freedom through his nonprofit, Let Freedom Ring. He died on January 3, 2024, at 98.

What documentaries did George Ciampa make?

Christian Taylor lists the six films George Ciampa made: Let Freedom Ring: The Lesson Is Priceless; Let Freedom Ring: Memories of France; Remembering the Fallen Heroes of the Mighty Eighth; They Will Never Forget; America's Finest Ambassadors: Our Armed Forces; and D-Day Veterans Return to Normandy: 75 Years Later.

Is Episode 215 the same as Episode 115?

Episode 215 opens with about seven minutes of new conversation, in which Christian Taylor and Jason Rugg share the news of George Ciampa's death and remember him. It then re-airs Episode 115, George's first interview with the show, in full. George's story continues in Episodes 116, 117, 120 and 121.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/4a7ff9

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

George Ciampa

World War II Veteran and Documentary Filmmaker

George Ciampa was born in Boston in 1925 and grew up in Southern California. He served in the 607th Graves Registration Company from Normandy through the Battle of the Bulge to the end of the war, then spent seven months in the army of occupation in Germany. He later worked for the Los Angeles Times. At 81 he began making documentaries about the price of freedom through his nonprofit, Let Freedom Ring, and shared his stories with students in the United States, France and Belgium. He received the French Legion of Honor and the Croix de Guerre. George Ciampa died on January 3, 2024, at the age of 98.

Website: http://www.letfreedomringforall.org

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

THE GEORGE CIAMPA SERIES


RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>c518f502-97ca-47f6-9b23-abcfe50da914Thu, 18 Jan 2024 09:05:00 -060049:07falsefull215215Episode 214 | Entertainment Blogging w/ Josh SharpeEpisode 214 | Entertainment Blogging w/ Josh SharpeIn this episode, Jason and Christian provide a year-in-review and updates on their documentary films. They also introduce guest Josh Sharpe, a film/entertainment/theater journalist. Josh shares his background in reporting for cinema and offers tips for conducting interviews. The importance of reviews for filmmakers is discussed, along with the different types of interviews and the process of film reviewing. In this conversation Josh Sharpe discusses the world of movie reviews and how it has evolved with technology. He talks about how some reviewers start their own movie review websites or blogs to review what they want. He emphasizes the importance of writing about and watching as many movies as possible to develop one's own taste and to stay informed. The conversation also touches on the impact of technology on film criticism, including the rise of social media platforms like TikTok and podcasting.

Takeaways:

  • Starting a personal movie review website or blog is a great way for aspiring film critics to practice their writing and review the films they want.
  • Writing about and watching as many movies as possible is important for developing one's own taste and staying informed about the film industry.
  • Technology has greatly influenced film criticism, with platforms like TikTok and podcasting providing new avenues for people to share their opinions on movies.
  • Film reviewers should strive for objectivity and avoid potential conflicts of interest, such as being paid to promote a movie they are reviewing.

DocuView DéjàVu:

Josh Sharpe: Best Worst Thing That Could Have Ever Happened, 2016, 95 mins, Watch (Rent/Buy) on Prime or Apple TV, IMDB Link:

Best Worst Thing That Ever Could Have Happened (2016) - IMDbJason: Greta Gerwig & James Cameron from Variety - Directors on Directors Series, 42:21 mins, YouTube, Link:

Greta Gerwig & James Cameron | Directors on DirectorsChristian: A fiction film, “Leave The World Behind”, 2023, 138 mins, Genres: Psychological Thriller, Drama, Mystery, Watch on Netflix, IMDB Link:

Leave the World Behind (2023) - IMDbThe Movie Proposal Podcast link:

The Movie Proposal

Timecodes

00:00 Introduction and Recap 01:10 Year in Review and Patreon Support 05:25 Update on "The Girl Who Wore Freedom" 08:08 Update on "Heroes of Carentan" 10:32 Introduction of Guest Josh Sharpe 11:18 Josh Sharpe's Background in Entertainment Reporting 14:21 Tips for Conducting Interviews 19:05 Importance of Reviews for Filmmakers 27:18 Different Types of Interviews 38:39 The Process of Film Reviewing 43:14 Starting a Movie Review Website 45:17 Evolution of Film Criticism with Technology 53:16 Future Goals in Film Criticism 57:28 DocuView DéjàVu: "Best Worst Thing That Ever Could Have Happened" 01:00:14 DocuView DéjàVu: "Variety's Directors on Directors with Greta Gerwig and James Cameron" 01:03:30 DocuView DéjàVu: "Leave the World Behind" 01:05:26 Film Review: "Wonka"

]]>In this episode, Jason and Christian provide a year-in-review and updates on their documentary films. They also introduce guest Josh Sharpe, a film/entertainment/theater journalist. Josh shares his background in reporting for cinema and offers tips for conducting interviews. The importance of reviews for filmmakers is discussed, along with the different types of interviews and the process of film reviewing. In this conversation Josh Sharpe discusses the world of movie reviews and how it has evolved with technology. He talks about how some reviewers start their own movie review websites or blogs to review what they want. He emphasizes the importance of writing about and watching as many movies as possible to develop one's own taste and to stay informed. The conversation also touches on the impact of technology on film criticism, including the rise of social media platforms like TikTok and podcasting.

Takeaways:

  • Starting a personal movie review website or blog is a great way for aspiring film critics to practice their writing and review the films they want.
  • Writing about and watching as many movies as possible is important for developing one's own taste and staying informed about the film industry.
  • Technology has greatly influenced film criticism, with platforms like TikTok and podcasting providing new avenues for people to share their opinions on movies.
  • Film reviewers should strive for objectivity and avoid potential conflicts of interest, such as being paid to promote a movie they are reviewing.

DocuView DéjàVu:

Josh Sharpe: Best Worst Thing That Could Have Ever Happened, 2016, 95 mins, Watch (Rent/Buy) on Prime or Apple TV, IMDB Link:

Best Worst Thing That Ever Could Have Happened (2016) - IMDbJason: Greta Gerwig & James Cameron from Variety - Directors on Directors Series, 42:21 mins, YouTube, Link:

Greta Gerwig & James Cameron | Directors on DirectorsChristian: A fiction film, “Leave The World Behind”, 2023, 138 mins, Genres: Psychological Thriller, Drama, Mystery, Watch on Netflix, IMDB Link:

Leave the World Behind (2023) - IMDbThe Movie Proposal Podcast link:

The Movie Proposal

Timecodes

00:00 Introduction and Recap 01:10 Year in Review and Patreon Support 05:25 Update on "The Girl Who Wore Freedom" 08:08 Update on "Heroes of Carentan" 10:32 Introduction of Guest Josh Sharpe 11:18 Josh Sharpe's Background in Entertainment Reporting 14:21 Tips for Conducting Interviews 19:05 Importance of Reviews for Filmmakers 27:18 Different Types of Interviews 38:39 The Process of Film Reviewing 43:14 Starting a Movie Review Website 45:17 Evolution of Film Criticism with Technology 53:16 Future Goals in Film Criticism 57:28 DocuView DéjàVu: "Best Worst Thing That Ever Could Have Happened" 01:00:14 DocuView DéjàVu: "Variety's Directors on Directors with Greta Gerwig and James Cameron" 01:03:30 DocuView DéjàVu: "Leave the World Behind" 01:05:26 Film Review: "Wonka"

]]>c7dd3528-adda-46b0-946a-5afe82017df1Thu, 04 Jan 2024 07:59:00 -060001:08:34falsefull214214Episode 213 | Part 2 of "Dear Sirs" with Mark Pedri and Carrie McCarthy, PhDEpisode 213 | Part 2 of "Dear Sirs" with Mark Pedri and Carrie McCarthy, PhDIn this episode, filmmakers Mark and Carrie Pedri discuss the challenges they faced in producing their film Dear Sirs. They talk about the difficulties of funding the project and the decision to go with crowdfunding and local grants. They also share their experiences of filming and the importance of storytelling techniques in documentaries. The filmmakers highlight the use of personal moments, music, and archival footage in their film. They recommend the documentary "Minding the Gap" and the series "Harry and Meghan". The episode concludes with information on where to watch "Dear Sirs": https://www.dearsirsfilm.com/. This conversation explores the concept of emotional intelligence and its importance in the various aspects of life including its components, and how to develop it. We also explore the role of emotional intelligence in the workplace, leadership, and relationships.

Takeaways

Emotional intelligence is the ability to recognize, understand, and manage our own emotions as well as the emotions of others. The components of emotional intelligence include self-awareness, self-regulation, motivation, empathy, and social skills. Developing emotional intelligence involves practicing self-reflection, mindfulness, and active listening. Emotional intelligence is crucial in the workplace for effective communication, collaboration, and conflict resolution. Emotionally intelligent leaders are able to inspire and motivate their team members, and they create a positive work environment. Emotional intelligence plays a significant role in building and maintaining healthy relationships.

DocuView DéjàVu

Mark: Minding the Gap, 2018, 93mins, watch on Hulu or Amazon, IMDB Link:

Minding the Gap (2018) ⭐ 8.0 | Documentary, SportChristian: Harry & Megan, Documentary Series - 6 Episodes, watch on Netflix, IMDB Link:

Harry & Meghan (TV Series 2022) ⭐ 5.1 | DocumentaryTimecodes

00:00 Introduction and Welcome 01:36 Background of Filmmakers 03:05 Challenges of Funding 04:12 Production Decisions 06:36 Crowdfunding Campaign 08:56 Lessons Learned from Crowdfunding 10:41 Challenges of Filming 12:51 Lessons Learned from Production 15:12 Storytelling Techniques 19:59 Incorporating Personal Moments 22:13 Integration of Music in the Film 23:52 Archival Footage and Photos 30:30 Recommendation: "Minding the Gap" 37:54 Recommendation: "Harry and Meghan" 42:21 Where to Watch "Dear Sirs" 01:30 Definition and Importance of Emotional Intelligence 07:45 Components of Emotional Intelligence 14:20 Developing Emotional Intelligence 21:10 Emotional Intelligence in the Workplace 29:40 Emotional Intelligence and Leadership 36:55 Emotional Intelligence in Relationships 43:26 Conclusion

]]>In this episode, filmmakers Mark and Carrie Pedri discuss the challenges they faced in producing their film Dear Sirs. They talk about the difficulties of funding the project and the decision to go with crowdfunding and local grants. They also share their experiences of filming and the importance of storytelling techniques in documentaries. The filmmakers highlight the use of personal moments, music, and archival footage in their film. They recommend the documentary "Minding the Gap" and the series "Harry and Meghan". The episode concludes with information on where to watch "Dear Sirs": https://www.dearsirsfilm.com/. This conversation explores the concept of emotional intelligence and its importance in the various aspects of life including its components, and how to develop it. We also explore the role of emotional intelligence in the workplace, leadership, and relationships.

Takeaways

Emotional intelligence is the ability to recognize, understand, and manage our own emotions as well as the emotions of others. The components of emotional intelligence include self-awareness, self-regulation, motivation, empathy, and social skills. Developing emotional intelligence involves practicing self-reflection, mindfulness, and active listening. Emotional intelligence is crucial in the workplace for effective communication, collaboration, and conflict resolution. Emotionally intelligent leaders are able to inspire and motivate their team members, and they create a positive work environment. Emotional intelligence plays a significant role in building and maintaining healthy relationships.

DocuView DéjàVu

Mark: Minding the Gap, 2018, 93mins, watch on Hulu or Amazon, IMDB Link:

Minding the Gap (2018) ⭐ 8.0 | Documentary, SportChristian: Harry & Megan, Documentary Series - 6 Episodes, watch on Netflix, IMDB Link:

Harry & Meghan (TV Series 2022) ⭐ 5.1 | DocumentaryTimecodes

00:00 Introduction and Welcome 01:36 Background of Filmmakers 03:05 Challenges of Funding 04:12 Production Decisions 06:36 Crowdfunding Campaign 08:56 Lessons Learned from Crowdfunding 10:41 Challenges of Filming 12:51 Lessons Learned from Production 15:12 Storytelling Techniques 19:59 Incorporating Personal Moments 22:13 Integration of Music in the Film 23:52 Archival Footage and Photos 30:30 Recommendation: "Minding the Gap" 37:54 Recommendation: "Harry and Meghan" 42:21 Where to Watch "Dear Sirs" 01:30 Definition and Importance of Emotional Intelligence 07:45 Components of Emotional Intelligence 14:20 Developing Emotional Intelligence 21:10 Emotional Intelligence in the Workplace 29:40 Emotional Intelligence and Leadership 36:55 Emotional Intelligence in Relationships 43:26 Conclusion

]]>2c9124f2-d6c0-4507-81dc-267403fd8ff3Thu, 21 Dec 2023 07:29:00 -060043:52falsefull213213Episode 212 | Part 1 of "Dear Sirs" with Mark Pedri and Carrie McCarthy, PhDEpisode 212 | Part 1 of "Dear Sirs" with Mark Pedri and Carrie McCarthy, PhDHey, Documentary First tribe! 🎙️ Get ready for an intimate ride with Mark Pedri and Carrie McCarthy, the dynamic duo behind "Dear Sirs."

In Episode #212, we're diving deep into family secrets, WWII revelations, and the magic of storytelling. This isn't just a podcast; it's a personal invitation to join us on an emotional rollercoaster of discovery and the power of sharing untold stories.

From a mysterious knife in a grandfather's bed to leaving LA for Wyoming, every moment is a leap of faith. Tune in to hear about their immersive storytelling process, the challenges of connecting with veteran communities, and the unexpected treasures found in the grandfather's house. This conversation is just the beginning; Part 2 awaits with more revelations, emotions, and insights into the making of this incredible documentary. Don't miss out—press play and become part of the "Dear Sirs" journey!

Buckle up, hit play, and let's embark on this incredible journey together! 🚀

#DocumentaryFirst #DearSirs #BehindTheScenesMagic

DocuView DéjàVu

Carrie: Boy’s State, 2020, 109mins, Watch on Apple TV+, IMDB:

Boys State (2020) - IMDb

Mark & Christian to share their next episode.

DF212 Summary

  • Introduction and a message of thanks to listeners for their support. 0:00
  • Introducing Mark & Carrie Pedri and their recent project, their BIOs and film awards for “Dear Sirs”. 3:58
  • Finding your audience and engagement, and veteran stories. 7:32
  • Building a bridge to connecting the civilian community to the military community. How did this story start? 13:10
  • A man's life and WWII experiences through personal belongings. 20:37
  • Storytelling techniques to who was the crew and their personal experiences in doing all the things to capture the story. 25:19
  • Documenting WWII experiences and survivor's guilt. 31:10
  • WWII veteran's experiences and the importance of archival research and finding the right people to help. 39:12
  • Hills to climb: Personal and Filmmaking Hills, Editing and Feedback - Critical yet Gentleness and sensitivity is required 48:35
  • Documentary filmmaking similarities to Ken Burns and the use of music that leads the story telling. 53:44
  • DocuView DéjàVu 55:57

]]>Hey, Documentary First tribe! 🎙️ Get ready for an intimate ride with Mark Pedri and Carrie McCarthy, the dynamic duo behind "Dear Sirs."

In Episode #212, we're diving deep into family secrets, WWII revelations, and the magic of storytelling. This isn't just a podcast; it's a personal invitation to join us on an emotional rollercoaster of discovery and the power of sharing untold stories.

From a mysterious knife in a grandfather's bed to leaving LA for Wyoming, every moment is a leap of faith. Tune in to hear about their immersive storytelling process, the challenges of connecting with veteran communities, and the unexpected treasures found in the grandfather's house. This conversation is just the beginning; Part 2 awaits with more revelations, emotions, and insights into the making of this incredible documentary. Don't miss out—press play and become part of the "Dear Sirs" journey!

Buckle up, hit play, and let's embark on this incredible journey together! 🚀

#DocumentaryFirst #DearSirs #BehindTheScenesMagic

DocuView DéjàVu

Carrie: Boy’s State, 2020, 109mins, Watch on Apple TV+, IMDB:

Boys State (2020) - IMDb

Mark & Christian to share their next episode.

DF212 Summary

  • Introduction and a message of thanks to listeners for their support. 0:00
  • Introducing Mark & Carrie Pedri and their recent project, their BIOs and film awards for “Dear Sirs”. 3:58
  • Finding your audience and engagement, and veteran stories. 7:32
  • Building a bridge to connecting the civilian community to the military community. How did this story start? 13:10
  • A man's life and WWII experiences through personal belongings. 20:37
  • Storytelling techniques to who was the crew and their personal experiences in doing all the things to capture the story. 25:19
  • Documenting WWII experiences and survivor's guilt. 31:10
  • WWII veteran's experiences and the importance of archival research and finding the right people to help. 39:12
  • Hills to climb: Personal and Filmmaking Hills, Editing and Feedback - Critical yet Gentleness and sensitivity is required 48:35
  • Documentary filmmaking similarities to Ken Burns and the use of music that leads the story telling. 53:44
  • DocuView DéjàVu 55:57

]]>71111ff0-31b9-47ca-820f-054d7bb9f900Thu, 07 Dec 2023 17:12:00 -060058:43falsefull212212Nicholas Bruckman Remembers Ady Barkan | Not Going QuietlyNicholas Bruckman Remembers Ady Barkan | Not Going QuietlyHow do you talk about your film a week after its subject dies?

Nicholas Bruckman spent years filming Ady Barkan for Not Going Quietly, the documentary about the young father with ALS who took his fight for health care all the way to Congress. Ady died on November 1, 2023. About a week later, Nicholas sat down with Documentary First. He had done about 200 interviews about the film, he told Christian, but this was the first since Ady's passing, and he had just come back from a memorial that weekend. So before the film, he wanted to talk about Ady: one of "the most incredible civil rights leaders of our generation," Nicholas says, and someone whose presence made you ask whether the way you're spending your life is important.

In Episode 211, Christian Taylor talks with Nicholas Bruckman on her own; her co-host Jason Rugg was out sick. Nicholas explains why he wanted the intimate scenes at home and the activist scenes to feel like one story, because Ady's story "is about how the personal is political." He remembers the moment he knew it was a feature: Ady telling him they would get an RV, find other sick people, and roll up in their wheelchairs to members of Congress to confront them with their stories. "That to me was what the movie is about, and what all documentary films are about, which is that stories have power," Nicholas says. Christian, who once worked in politics in Washington, says that once you've seen Ady's personal story, you can't "other" him, whatever side of the aisle you're on.

Then the making of it. In 2018, Liz Jaff, a political consultant who had just met Ady on a plane, called Nicholas's company, People's TV, about a short launch video for the health care advocacy group she and Ady were starting, Be A Hero. Nicholas flew to Santa Barbara expecting a two-minute promo, and by the end of that first interview he asked Ady to make a movie. Ady had been diagnosed in 2016 and given two to four years to live; when Nicholas met him, he had about six months of speech left. Nicholas lived in the family's garage bedroom for long stretches so he could film dinners without a crew. He talks about funders who passed because they thought it sounded too sad, the executive producers who signed on (Bradley Whitford, who met Ady at a protest, and Mark and Jay Duplass), and how the rights were split among POV on PBS, a theatrical run from Greenwich Entertainment, and Hulu. He got Ady to the red carpet at the 2021 premiere, where the film got a standing ovation, and Ady gave him "a kind of knowing eyebrow raise." The conversation ends with Minted, Nicholas's film about the NFT boom, and with Nicholas's own story: a mother who was an opera singer, a 17-year-old with a video camera at the World Trade Center site on 9/11, a family with deep roots in disability advocacy, and the two pieces of advice he gives young filmmakers.

WATCH THE FILM

Not Going Quietly is available to rent or buy on Apple TV

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • Why Nicholas's first interview after Ady Barkan's death began with Ady, not the film
  • How a two-minute launch video for Be A Hero became a feature documentary
  • Why Nicholas lived with Ady's family to film without a crew

CHAPTERS

0:00 Meet Nicholas Bruckman

3:19 Losing Ady Barkan

10:24 The Personal Is Political

13:46 Empathy Across the Aisle

21:11 How the Film Began

26:18 Standing Ovation

29:51 The Dinner Table

32:03 Budget, POV and Hulu

35:19 Minted and NFTs

40:28 From 9/11 to Filmmaking

44:00 Find Your Tribe

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What is the documentary Not Going Quietly about?

Not Going Quietly is a 2021 documentary directed by Nicholas Bruckman about Ady Barkan, a young father and health care activist diagnosed with ALS in 2016. After a confrontation with a senator on a plane went viral, Barkan co-founded Be A Hero and traveled the country with other sick people to press members of Congress on health care. The film premiered at SXSW in 2021, where it won the Audience Award and a Special Jury Award.

When did Ady Barkan die?

Ady Barkan died on November 1, 2023, at age 39, of complications from ALS. He had been diagnosed in 2016 and told he had two to four years to live. Nicholas Bruckman, who directed Not Going Quietly, recorded this Documentary First conversation about a week after Barkan's death. He told Christian Taylor it was his first interview since Barkan's passing, and that he had just come back from a memorial that weekend.

How did Not Going Quietly get made?

Nicholas Bruckman met Ady Barkan in 2018, when Barkan's new group, Be A Hero, asked Bruckman's company, People's TV, to make a short launch video. By the end of the first interview, Bruckman had asked to make a feature. He started filming on spec with his company's resources, later added grants and executive producers Bradley Whitford and Mark and Jay Duplass, and lived with the Barkan family for long stretches to film at home without a crew.

What advice does Nicholas Bruckman give new documentary filmmakers?

Bruckman gives two pieces of advice. First, get really good at one craft in or near the industry, such as editing, color correction or lighting, so you can earn a living while you're around other filmmakers. He says he was a very good editor but never a good camera person, and he built People's TV on commercial and client work. Second, find your tribe, because documentary filmmaking, he says, is a team sport.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/4a7ffd

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Nicholas Bruckman

Director and Founder of People's Television

Nicholas Bruckman is an Emmy-nominated director and the founder and CEO of People's Television (People's TV), a creative studio in New York City and Washington, DC that makes independent films and branded work for companies, foundations and social movements. He directed Not Going Quietly, which won the Audience Award and a Special Jury Award at SXSW 2021 and earned two News and Documentary Emmy nominations, and Minted: The Rise (and Fall?) of the NFT, which premiered at Tribeca in 2023. He produced Valley of Saints, a Sundance Audience Award winner, and co-directed the docuseries The Price of Milk with Yoni Brook.

Website

People's TV

Instagram

X

IN MEMORY

Ady Barkan (1983 to 2023). We're grateful Nicholas shared Ady's story with us a week after he lost his friend.

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

THE NICK BRUCKMAN SESSIONS


RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>How do you talk about your film a week after its subject dies?

Nicholas Bruckman spent years filming Ady Barkan for Not Going Quietly, the documentary about the young father with ALS who took his fight for health care all the way to Congress. Ady died on November 1, 2023. About a week later, Nicholas sat down with Documentary First. He had done about 200 interviews about the film, he told Christian, but this was the first since Ady's passing, and he had just come back from a memorial that weekend. So before the film, he wanted to talk about Ady: one of "the most incredible civil rights leaders of our generation," Nicholas says, and someone whose presence made you ask whether the way you're spending your life is important.

In Episode 211, Christian Taylor talks with Nicholas Bruckman on her own; her co-host Jason Rugg was out sick. Nicholas explains why he wanted the intimate scenes at home and the activist scenes to feel like one story, because Ady's story "is about how the personal is political." He remembers the moment he knew it was a feature: Ady telling him they would get an RV, find other sick people, and roll up in their wheelchairs to members of Congress to confront them with their stories. "That to me was what the movie is about, and what all documentary films are about, which is that stories have power," Nicholas says. Christian, who once worked in politics in Washington, says that once you've seen Ady's personal story, you can't "other" him, whatever side of the aisle you're on.

Then the making of it. In 2018, Liz Jaff, a political consultant who had just met Ady on a plane, called Nicholas's company, People's TV, about a short launch video for the health care advocacy group she and Ady were starting, Be A Hero. Nicholas flew to Santa Barbara expecting a two-minute promo, and by the end of that first interview he asked Ady to make a movie. Ady had been diagnosed in 2016 and given two to four years to live; when Nicholas met him, he had about six months of speech left. Nicholas lived in the family's garage bedroom for long stretches so he could film dinners without a crew. He talks about funders who passed because they thought it sounded too sad, the executive producers who signed on (Bradley Whitford, who met Ady at a protest, and Mark and Jay Duplass), and how the rights were split among POV on PBS, a theatrical run from Greenwich Entertainment, and Hulu. He got Ady to the red carpet at the 2021 premiere, where the film got a standing ovation, and Ady gave him "a kind of knowing eyebrow raise." The conversation ends with Minted, Nicholas's film about the NFT boom, and with Nicholas's own story: a mother who was an opera singer, a 17-year-old with a video camera at the World Trade Center site on 9/11, a family with deep roots in disability advocacy, and the two pieces of advice he gives young filmmakers.

WATCH THE FILM

Not Going Quietly is available to rent or buy on Apple TV

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • Why Nicholas's first interview after Ady Barkan's death began with Ady, not the film
  • How a two-minute launch video for Be A Hero became a feature documentary
  • Why Nicholas lived with Ady's family to film without a crew

CHAPTERS

0:00 Meet Nicholas Bruckman

3:19 Losing Ady Barkan

10:24 The Personal Is Political

13:46 Empathy Across the Aisle

21:11 How the Film Began

26:18 Standing Ovation

29:51 The Dinner Table

32:03 Budget, POV and Hulu

35:19 Minted and NFTs

40:28 From 9/11 to Filmmaking

44:00 Find Your Tribe

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What is the documentary Not Going Quietly about?

Not Going Quietly is a 2021 documentary directed by Nicholas Bruckman about Ady Barkan, a young father and health care activist diagnosed with ALS in 2016. After a confrontation with a senator on a plane went viral, Barkan co-founded Be A Hero and traveled the country with other sick people to press members of Congress on health care. The film premiered at SXSW in 2021, where it won the Audience Award and a Special Jury Award.

When did Ady Barkan die?

Ady Barkan died on November 1, 2023, at age 39, of complications from ALS. He had been diagnosed in 2016 and told he had two to four years to live. Nicholas Bruckman, who directed Not Going Quietly, recorded this Documentary First conversation about a week after Barkan's death. He told Christian Taylor it was his first interview since Barkan's passing, and that he had just come back from a memorial that weekend.

How did Not Going Quietly get made?

Nicholas Bruckman met Ady Barkan in 2018, when Barkan's new group, Be A Hero, asked Bruckman's company, People's TV, to make a short launch video. By the end of the first interview, Bruckman had asked to make a feature. He started filming on spec with his company's resources, later added grants and executive producers Bradley Whitford and Mark and Jay Duplass, and lived with the Barkan family for long stretches to film at home without a crew.

What advice does Nicholas Bruckman give new documentary filmmakers?

Bruckman gives two pieces of advice. First, get really good at one craft in or near the industry, such as editing, color correction or lighting, so you can earn a living while you're around other filmmakers. He says he was a very good editor but never a good camera person, and he built People's TV on commercial and client work. Second, find your tribe, because documentary filmmaking, he says, is a team sport.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/4a7ffd

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Nicholas Bruckman

Director and Founder of People's Television

Nicholas Bruckman is an Emmy-nominated director and the founder and CEO of People's Television (People's TV), a creative studio in New York City and Washington, DC that makes independent films and branded work for companies, foundations and social movements. He directed Not Going Quietly, which won the Audience Award and a Special Jury Award at SXSW 2021 and earned two News and Documentary Emmy nominations, and Minted: The Rise (and Fall?) of the NFT, which premiered at Tribeca in 2023. He produced Valley of Saints, a Sundance Audience Award winner, and co-directed the docuseries The Price of Milk with Yoni Brook.

Website

People's TV

Instagram

X

IN MEMORY

Ady Barkan (1983 to 2023). We're grateful Nicholas shared Ady's story with us a week after he lost his friend.

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

THE NICK BRUCKMAN SESSIONS


RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>e63c41d1-f265-40af-8252-30a573e336b4Thu, 23 Nov 2023 19:13:00 -060049:35falsefull211211Episode 210 | Gail Gilbert - Puppy LoveEpisode 210 | Gail Gilbert - Puppy LoveIn this week's episode of Documentary First, we dive into the heartwarming tale of "Puppy Love," a documentary chronicling the incredible journey of four paralyzed puppies on the road to recovery.

What began as Gail's casual filming of her new puppy's antics took an unexpected turn when the pup faced paralysis. This documentary captures the tireless efforts to help the puppies heal, with a diverse team of camera operators capturing every moment. Gail's meticulous editing, guided by screenwriting principles, resulted in a 76-minute emotional rollercoaster that has left audiences laughing and in tears.

This project was a labor of love, with volunteers pouring their time and resources into rescuing dogs in need. Remarkably, the production costs stayed under $15,000, thanks to the dedication of everyone involved.

The film sheds light on the vital role of raw food company Darwin's, whose sponsorship was born out of a positive impact on one of the featured dogs. Their collaboration is a testament to the potential positive change that can come from these stories.

Gail shares valuable lessons for aspiring filmmakers, stressing the importance of dedication, consistency, and never deleting footage or audio. She also highlights the significance of media training and the stark contrast it made in her PR efforts.

With recent release on streaming platforms, Gail looks forward to future screenings, including a dream showing at the Museum of the Dog in NYC. She and Christian discuss the distribution process, expressing gratitude for the support from Documentary First and underlining the crucial role of a strong distributor relationship in successful film promotion.

In the end, "Puppy Love" stands as a powerful testament to the lengths individuals will go to save an animal, showcasing the enduring power of perseverance, sacrifice, and the bond between humans and animals. Gail's insights into production challenges, collaborative efforts, and future plans for the film offer a captivating glimpse into the world behind this heartwarming documentary.

In "Puppy Love" the dogs are put on a raw diet to help with their recovery. It was so successful that they continue eating raw today. Some dogs eat home made raw food and others eat food from Darwin's Natural Pet Products. https://www.darwinspet.com

‌DocuView Déjà Vu:

Gail: The Pigeon Tunnel, 2023, 92 mins, Watch on Apple TV+, IMDB Link:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt28486633/?ref_=ext_shr

The Deepest Breath, 2023, 108 mins, Watch on Netflix, IMDB Link;

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt24132732/?ref_=ext_shr

Timecodes:

Filmmaking journey and first feature film. 0:00

Documentary filmmaking and puppy paralysis. 1:46

Filmmaking and storytelling techniques. 7:45

A heartwarming dog rescue story. 12:29

Film distribution and festival run. 17:03

Tips and challenges. 21:31

Sponsorship, budget, and dog health in a documentary. 27:02

Filmmaking costs and distribution. 31:13

Filmmaking and editing & DocuView Déjà Vu. 36:17

Media training. 40:09

]]>In this week's episode of Documentary First, we dive into the heartwarming tale of "Puppy Love," a documentary chronicling the incredible journey of four paralyzed puppies on the road to recovery.

What began as Gail's casual filming of her new puppy's antics took an unexpected turn when the pup faced paralysis. This documentary captures the tireless efforts to help the puppies heal, with a diverse team of camera operators capturing every moment. Gail's meticulous editing, guided by screenwriting principles, resulted in a 76-minute emotional rollercoaster that has left audiences laughing and in tears.

This project was a labor of love, with volunteers pouring their time and resources into rescuing dogs in need. Remarkably, the production costs stayed under $15,000, thanks to the dedication of everyone involved.

The film sheds light on the vital role of raw food company Darwin's, whose sponsorship was born out of a positive impact on one of the featured dogs. Their collaboration is a testament to the potential positive change that can come from these stories.

Gail shares valuable lessons for aspiring filmmakers, stressing the importance of dedication, consistency, and never deleting footage or audio. She also highlights the significance of media training and the stark contrast it made in her PR efforts.

With recent release on streaming platforms, Gail looks forward to future screenings, including a dream showing at the Museum of the Dog in NYC. She and Christian discuss the distribution process, expressing gratitude for the support from Documentary First and underlining the crucial role of a strong distributor relationship in successful film promotion.

In the end, "Puppy Love" stands as a powerful testament to the lengths individuals will go to save an animal, showcasing the enduring power of perseverance, sacrifice, and the bond between humans and animals. Gail's insights into production challenges, collaborative efforts, and future plans for the film offer a captivating glimpse into the world behind this heartwarming documentary.

In "Puppy Love" the dogs are put on a raw diet to help with their recovery. It was so successful that they continue eating raw today. Some dogs eat home made raw food and others eat food from Darwin's Natural Pet Products. https://www.darwinspet.com

‌DocuView Déjà Vu:

Gail: The Pigeon Tunnel, 2023, 92 mins, Watch on Apple TV+, IMDB Link:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt28486633/?ref_=ext_shr

The Deepest Breath, 2023, 108 mins, Watch on Netflix, IMDB Link;

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt24132732/?ref_=ext_shr

Timecodes:

Filmmaking journey and first feature film. 0:00

Documentary filmmaking and puppy paralysis. 1:46

Filmmaking and storytelling techniques. 7:45

A heartwarming dog rescue story. 12:29

Film distribution and festival run. 17:03

Tips and challenges. 21:31

Sponsorship, budget, and dog health in a documentary. 27:02

Filmmaking costs and distribution. 31:13

Filmmaking and editing & DocuView Déjà Vu. 36:17

Media training. 40:09

]]>53b5d6fb-b4a1-4385-bc85-ef9d1c403766Thu, 09 Nov 2023 18:28:00 -060045:35falsefull210210Ken Burns: Making the Past Come Alive | The American BuffaloKen Burns: Making the Past Come Alive | The American BuffaloWhy does Ken Burns record the music first, before the editing starts?

Ken Burns says the music on his films comes first. For The Civil War, he went through hymnals and songbooks of the period, had musicians play each tune 10, 15, 20 different ways, and then edited the words to fit the musical phrase, instead of scoring a locked picture to "amplify emotions you hope are there." Every song in that series but one came from the period; the exception, Ashokan Farewell, was written by Jay Ungar. For The Vietnam War, his team went to The Beatles first, and once The Beatles said yes, the other artists followed.

In Episode 209, the second of two parts, Jason Rugg and Christian Taylor pick up with Ken Burns where Part 1 left off. Ken talks about his longtime collaborators, writer and producer Dayton Duncan and producer Julie Dunfey, both of them retiring (PBS calls The American Buffalo the three collaborators' final film), and why his team, on films he says are "handmade by about 18 people," never stops researching or writing. "Anytime you see a talking head in our film, it's just a happy accident," he says. Christian raises her own worry that music in church can feel like manipulation. Ken takes exception: when it's authentic, he says, music is "the most powerful and the quickest art form."

Then they get to sound and voices. Ken films an old photograph the way a feature filmmaker films a scene, with a master shot, a close-up, a tilt, a pan and a reveal, and he listens to it too: are the troops tramping, is the bat cracking, is the crowd cheering? He says the Battle of Gettysburg in The Civil War carried 160 tracks of sound. Christian, who says his fingerprints are all over The Girl Who Wore Freedom, tells him she set out to make "a Ken Burns documentary." Ken tells her, "There's no copyright on technique," and, "In order for something to be authentic, it has to be you." He credits Perry Miller Adato's film about Gertrude Stein with showing him he only needed to hear first-person voices, not see the actors. Later Christian tells him she hoped Peter Coyote would narrate her film, and ended up recording the narration herself when the money and the time ran out; Ken says he is the scratch narrator on his own films.

WATCH THE FILM

The American Buffalo is streaming on PBS

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • Why Ken's team never stops researching or writing
  • Why every talking head in a Ken Burns film is "a happy accident"
  • How The Beatles opened the door to the music of The Vietnam War
  • Whether music in film, or in church, is manipulation
  • How Ken uses sound effects to bring still photographs to life
  • What Peter Coyote asks Ken when a take isn't working
  • What a Gertrude Stein documentary taught Ken about first-person voices

CHAPTERS

0:00 The Team Behind Ken Burns

6:33 Recording the Music First

8:51 Beatles Songs in The Vietnam War

11:56 The Sound of Still Photographs

15:18 No Copyright on Technique

19:13 Night Mail to Hollow Tree

22:01 Christian's Pick: The Roosevelts

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Why does Ken Burns record the music before editing his documentaries?

Burns says his team records the music first so it sets the pace and rhythm of the edit, instead of adding a score at the end "to amplify emotions you hope are there." For The Civil War, musicians played period hymns, popular songs and anthems many different ways to create musical beds, and the editors fit the narration to the musical phrase.

How does Ken Burns bring old photographs to life?

Burns treats an old photograph the way a feature filmmaker treats a scene, with a master shot, close-ups, tilts, pans, reveals and inserts of detail. He also listens to it, adding sound for marching troops, cannon fire or a cracking bat, because a photograph is an arrested moment that had a past and a future. He says the Battle of Gettysburg in The Civil War used 160 tracks of sound.

Who made The American Buffalo with Ken Burns?

The American Buffalo was directed by Ken Burns, written by Dayton Duncan, and produced by Julie Dunfey and Burns, with Peter Coyote narrating. Duncan has worked with Burns for more than 30 years, on films including The West, Lewis and Clark, The National Parks, The Dust Bowl and Country Music. PBS describes The American Buffalo as the final film the three made as collaborators.

What documentaries does Ken Burns recommend?

Asked for one recommendation on Documentary First, Burns chose two. The first is Night Mail (1936), a short British film about the overnight mail train from London to Scotland, which he first saw at Hampshire College and calls "a perfect film." The second is Hollow Tree, Kira Akerman's documentary about three young women in Louisiana coming to terms with climate change, which Ken gave notes on as it was made.

DOCUVIEW DÉJÀ VU PICKS

Ken's picks: Night Mail (1936), the GPO Film Unit short directed by Harry Watt and Basil Wright, which Ken remembers as John Grierson's film, and Hollow Tree (2022), directed by Kira Akerman.

Christian's pick: The Roosevelts: An Intimate History, by Ken Burns.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/4a7fff

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Ken Burns

Documentary Filmmaker

Ken Burns was born in Brooklyn in 1953 and has been making documentaries since Brooklyn Bridge, made in 1981 and nominated for an Academy Award. His films for PBS include The Civil War, Baseball, Jazz, The War, The National Parks: America's Best Idea, Prohibition, The Roosevelts: An Intimate History, The Vietnam War, Country Music, The U.S. and the Holocaust and The American Buffalo. He has lived and worked in a small town in New Hampshire for more than four decades.

Website

Facebook

X

YouTube

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

THE KEN BURNS EPISODES


RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>Why does Ken Burns record the music first, before the editing starts?

Ken Burns says the music on his films comes first. For The Civil War, he went through hymnals and songbooks of the period, had musicians play each tune 10, 15, 20 different ways, and then edited the words to fit the musical phrase, instead of scoring a locked picture to "amplify emotions you hope are there." Every song in that series but one came from the period; the exception, Ashokan Farewell, was written by Jay Ungar. For The Vietnam War, his team went to The Beatles first, and once The Beatles said yes, the other artists followed.

In Episode 209, the second of two parts, Jason Rugg and Christian Taylor pick up with Ken Burns where Part 1 left off. Ken talks about his longtime collaborators, writer and producer Dayton Duncan and producer Julie Dunfey, both of them retiring (PBS calls The American Buffalo the three collaborators' final film), and why his team, on films he says are "handmade by about 18 people," never stops researching or writing. "Anytime you see a talking head in our film, it's just a happy accident," he says. Christian raises her own worry that music in church can feel like manipulation. Ken takes exception: when it's authentic, he says, music is "the most powerful and the quickest art form."

Then they get to sound and voices. Ken films an old photograph the way a feature filmmaker films a scene, with a master shot, a close-up, a tilt, a pan and a reveal, and he listens to it too: are the troops tramping, is the bat cracking, is the crowd cheering? He says the Battle of Gettysburg in The Civil War carried 160 tracks of sound. Christian, who says his fingerprints are all over The Girl Who Wore Freedom, tells him she set out to make "a Ken Burns documentary." Ken tells her, "There's no copyright on technique," and, "In order for something to be authentic, it has to be you." He credits Perry Miller Adato's film about Gertrude Stein with showing him he only needed to hear first-person voices, not see the actors. Later Christian tells him she hoped Peter Coyote would narrate her film, and ended up recording the narration herself when the money and the time ran out; Ken says he is the scratch narrator on his own films.

WATCH THE FILM

The American Buffalo is streaming on PBS

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • Why Ken's team never stops researching or writing
  • Why every talking head in a Ken Burns film is "a happy accident"
  • How The Beatles opened the door to the music of The Vietnam War
  • Whether music in film, or in church, is manipulation
  • How Ken uses sound effects to bring still photographs to life
  • What Peter Coyote asks Ken when a take isn't working
  • What a Gertrude Stein documentary taught Ken about first-person voices

CHAPTERS

0:00 The Team Behind Ken Burns

6:33 Recording the Music First

8:51 Beatles Songs in The Vietnam War

11:56 The Sound of Still Photographs

15:18 No Copyright on Technique

19:13 Night Mail to Hollow Tree

22:01 Christian's Pick: The Roosevelts

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Why does Ken Burns record the music before editing his documentaries?

Burns says his team records the music first so it sets the pace and rhythm of the edit, instead of adding a score at the end "to amplify emotions you hope are there." For The Civil War, musicians played period hymns, popular songs and anthems many different ways to create musical beds, and the editors fit the narration to the musical phrase.

How does Ken Burns bring old photographs to life?

Burns treats an old photograph the way a feature filmmaker treats a scene, with a master shot, close-ups, tilts, pans, reveals and inserts of detail. He also listens to it, adding sound for marching troops, cannon fire or a cracking bat, because a photograph is an arrested moment that had a past and a future. He says the Battle of Gettysburg in The Civil War used 160 tracks of sound.

Who made The American Buffalo with Ken Burns?

The American Buffalo was directed by Ken Burns, written by Dayton Duncan, and produced by Julie Dunfey and Burns, with Peter Coyote narrating. Duncan has worked with Burns for more than 30 years, on films including The West, Lewis and Clark, The National Parks, The Dust Bowl and Country Music. PBS describes The American Buffalo as the final film the three made as collaborators.

What documentaries does Ken Burns recommend?

Asked for one recommendation on Documentary First, Burns chose two. The first is Night Mail (1936), a short British film about the overnight mail train from London to Scotland, which he first saw at Hampshire College and calls "a perfect film." The second is Hollow Tree, Kira Akerman's documentary about three young women in Louisiana coming to terms with climate change, which Ken gave notes on as it was made.

DOCUVIEW DÉJÀ VU PICKS

Ken's picks: Night Mail (1936), the GPO Film Unit short directed by Harry Watt and Basil Wright, which Ken remembers as John Grierson's film, and Hollow Tree (2022), directed by Kira Akerman.

Christian's pick: The Roosevelts: An Intimate History, by Ken Burns.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/4a7fff

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Ken Burns

Documentary Filmmaker

Ken Burns was born in Brooklyn in 1953 and has been making documentaries since Brooklyn Bridge, made in 1981 and nominated for an Academy Award. His films for PBS include The Civil War, Baseball, Jazz, The War, The National Parks: America's Best Idea, Prohibition, The Roosevelts: An Intimate History, The Vietnam War, Country Music, The U.S. and the Holocaust and The American Buffalo. He has lived and worked in a small town in New Hampshire for more than four decades.

Website

Facebook

X

YouTube

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

THE KEN BURNS EPISODES


RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>c6d01b57-6a3f-400b-881b-19540cf22b95Thu, 26 Oct 2023 07:19:00 -050027:22falsefull209209Ken Burns on Losing His Mother and The American BuffaloKen Burns on Losing His Mother and The American BuffaloWhat did a young Ken Burns see in his father's tears that made him want to be a filmmaker?

Ken Burns's mother, Lyla, was sick with cancer for as long as he could remember, and she died when he was 11. Afterward his father, a big movie fan, let him stay up to watch films, and Ken saw him cry at a movie, though he had never cried while she was sick, or at her funeral. In that moment, a few months after his mother's death, Ken knew what he wanted to do. Decades on, his late father-in-law, a psychologist, put it to him plainly: "You wake the dead, make Abraham Lincoln and Jackie Robinson come alive. Who do you think you're really trying to wake up?" Ken calls his work "emotional archaeology," and that thread runs through this whole conversation about The American Buffalo.

In Episode 208, the first of two parts, Jason Rugg hosts with Christian Taylor, and Ken Burns joins them shortly before The American Buffalo premiered on PBS in October 2023. Ken starts with a faded New Yorker cartoon he keeps at home: three men standing in hell, one of them saying his 200-plus screen credits didn't mean a thing. He talks about why a producer's job is to solve a million problems and then a million more, his old mantra to "bite off more than I could chew and then learn how to chew," and the neon sign in his editing room that says "it's complicated." Christian, who says she would not have finished The Girl Who Wore Freedom without his example, shares the hardest choice of her life: pregnant and unmarried, she was looking to have an abortion, then chose to give her child life. That child was her son Hunter, the reason The Girl Who Wore Freedom began. That painful choice, she says, changed her life. Ken answers with what Werner Herzog once told him about truth, and why he believes you can't move an audience unless you're willing to carry some of that emotion yourself.

Then the talk turns to The American Buffalo, the two-part, four-hour film Ken directed, written by Dayton Duncan and produced by Julie Dunfey and Ken. He explains why he waited 30 years to make the film, why it centers Native American experience, and why the people who saved the buffalo, from Theodore Roosevelt and William Hornaday to Charles Goodnight, whose wife asked him to save some, did not all do it for the right reasons. At the heart of it is a question from George Horse Capture Jr. (Aaniiih) that Ken repeats: "Do you need to destroy what you love?" Ken also points to Homecoming, a short film by his consulting producer Julianna Brannum (Comanche), in which Jason Baldes brings buffalo back to tribes as far away as the Menominee in Wisconsin. The DocuView Déjà Vu segment is in Part 2.

WATCH THE FILM

The American Buffalo is streaming on PBS

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • Why Ken keeps a cartoon about 200 screen credits at home
  • Why Ken sees problems as the job, not the obstacle
  • What his father-in-law meant when he asked who Ken was really trying to wake up
  • Why Ken treats people in the past without the arrogance of the present
  • How Werner Herzog described the difference between his truth and Ken's
  • Why a four-hour film about the buffalo waited 30 years
  • Why The American Buffalo centers Native American voices
  • What the 1913 Buffalo nickel says about romanticizing what we nearly destroyed

CHAPTERS

0:00 The New Yorker Cartoon

2:10 What Ken Burns Taught Christian

7:02 Losing His Mother at 11

14:56 Emotional Truth

18:08 Four Hours on The American Buffalo

21:10 The Largest Wildlife Slaughter in History

27:16 Rescuers for the Wrong Reasons

29:54 Do You Need to Destroy What You Love?

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

How did losing his mother shape Ken Burns's films?

His mother, Lyla, died of cancer when Ken Burns was 11. On Documentary First, he says he decided to become a filmmaker after watching his father, who had not cried at her funeral, cry at a movie. Years later his father-in-law, a psychologist, told him he wakes the dead and asked who he was really trying to wake up. Ken says, "I would not be sitting with you had not my mother died."

What is Ken Burns's The American Buffalo about?

The American Buffalo is a two-part, four-hour film directed by Ken Burns, written by Dayton Duncan and produced by Julie Dunfey and Burns. It first aired on PBS on October 16 and 17, 2023. It follows the North American bison across more than 10,000 years: its place at the center of Native life, its near extinction in the late 1800s, and the many different people who brought it back.

Why did the American buffalo almost go extinct?

Burns says there were at least 15 million bison at the end of the Civil War, and within 20 years fewer than a thousand were left. Hunters killed them by the millions for their hides, which became leather belts to run industrial machines, and left the meat to rot. The slaughter also devastated the Native peoples who depended on the buffalo. Ken calls it the largest slaughter of wildlife in the history of the world.

What does Ken Burns mean by "emotional archaeology"?

Burns describes his work as "emotional archaeology": not just excavating dry dates and facts, but recovering the emotions people in the past lived with. He says nostalgia and sentimentality are the enemy, and that we should meet people from the past without the arrogance of assuming we know more than they did. On Documentary First, he connects the idea to losing his mother as a boy.

DOCUVIEW DÉJÀ VU PICKS

Ken's picks are in Part 2

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/4a8000

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Ken Burns

Documentary Filmmaker

Ken Burns was born in Brooklyn in 1953 and has been making documentaries since Brooklyn Bridge, made in 1981 and nominated for an Academy Award. His films for PBS include The Civil War, Baseball, Jazz, The War, The National Parks: America's Best Idea, Prohibition, The Roosevelts: An Intimate History, The Vietnam War, Country Music, The U.S. and the Holocaust and The American Buffalo. He has lived and worked in a small town in New Hampshire for more than four decades.

Website

Facebook

X

YouTube

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

THE KEN BURNS EPISODES


RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>What did a young Ken Burns see in his father's tears that made him want to be a filmmaker?

Ken Burns's mother, Lyla, was sick with cancer for as long as he could remember, and she died when he was 11. Afterward his father, a big movie fan, let him stay up to watch films, and Ken saw him cry at a movie, though he had never cried while she was sick, or at her funeral. In that moment, a few months after his mother's death, Ken knew what he wanted to do. Decades on, his late father-in-law, a psychologist, put it to him plainly: "You wake the dead, make Abraham Lincoln and Jackie Robinson come alive. Who do you think you're really trying to wake up?" Ken calls his work "emotional archaeology," and that thread runs through this whole conversation about The American Buffalo.

In Episode 208, the first of two parts, Jason Rugg hosts with Christian Taylor, and Ken Burns joins them shortly before The American Buffalo premiered on PBS in October 2023. Ken starts with a faded New Yorker cartoon he keeps at home: three men standing in hell, one of them saying his 200-plus screen credits didn't mean a thing. He talks about why a producer's job is to solve a million problems and then a million more, his old mantra to "bite off more than I could chew and then learn how to chew," and the neon sign in his editing room that says "it's complicated." Christian, who says she would not have finished The Girl Who Wore Freedom without his example, shares the hardest choice of her life: pregnant and unmarried, she was looking to have an abortion, then chose to give her child life. That child was her son Hunter, the reason The Girl Who Wore Freedom began. That painful choice, she says, changed her life. Ken answers with what Werner Herzog once told him about truth, and why he believes you can't move an audience unless you're willing to carry some of that emotion yourself.

Then the talk turns to The American Buffalo, the two-part, four-hour film Ken directed, written by Dayton Duncan and produced by Julie Dunfey and Ken. He explains why he waited 30 years to make the film, why it centers Native American experience, and why the people who saved the buffalo, from Theodore Roosevelt and William Hornaday to Charles Goodnight, whose wife asked him to save some, did not all do it for the right reasons. At the heart of it is a question from George Horse Capture Jr. (Aaniiih) that Ken repeats: "Do you need to destroy what you love?" Ken also points to Homecoming, a short film by his consulting producer Julianna Brannum (Comanche), in which Jason Baldes brings buffalo back to tribes as far away as the Menominee in Wisconsin. The DocuView Déjà Vu segment is in Part 2.

WATCH THE FILM

The American Buffalo is streaming on PBS

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • Why Ken keeps a cartoon about 200 screen credits at home
  • Why Ken sees problems as the job, not the obstacle
  • What his father-in-law meant when he asked who Ken was really trying to wake up
  • Why Ken treats people in the past without the arrogance of the present
  • How Werner Herzog described the difference between his truth and Ken's
  • Why a four-hour film about the buffalo waited 30 years
  • Why The American Buffalo centers Native American voices
  • What the 1913 Buffalo nickel says about romanticizing what we nearly destroyed

CHAPTERS

0:00 The New Yorker Cartoon

2:10 What Ken Burns Taught Christian

7:02 Losing His Mother at 11

14:56 Emotional Truth

18:08 Four Hours on The American Buffalo

21:10 The Largest Wildlife Slaughter in History

27:16 Rescuers for the Wrong Reasons

29:54 Do You Need to Destroy What You Love?

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

How did losing his mother shape Ken Burns's films?

His mother, Lyla, died of cancer when Ken Burns was 11. On Documentary First, he says he decided to become a filmmaker after watching his father, who had not cried at her funeral, cry at a movie. Years later his father-in-law, a psychologist, told him he wakes the dead and asked who he was really trying to wake up. Ken says, "I would not be sitting with you had not my mother died."

What is Ken Burns's The American Buffalo about?

The American Buffalo is a two-part, four-hour film directed by Ken Burns, written by Dayton Duncan and produced by Julie Dunfey and Burns. It first aired on PBS on October 16 and 17, 2023. It follows the North American bison across more than 10,000 years: its place at the center of Native life, its near extinction in the late 1800s, and the many different people who brought it back.

Why did the American buffalo almost go extinct?

Burns says there were at least 15 million bison at the end of the Civil War, and within 20 years fewer than a thousand were left. Hunters killed them by the millions for their hides, which became leather belts to run industrial machines, and left the meat to rot. The slaughter also devastated the Native peoples who depended on the buffalo. Ken calls it the largest slaughter of wildlife in the history of the world.

What does Ken Burns mean by "emotional archaeology"?

Burns describes his work as "emotional archaeology": not just excavating dry dates and facts, but recovering the emotions people in the past lived with. He says nostalgia and sentimentality are the enemy, and that we should meet people from the past without the arrogance of assuming we know more than they did. On Documentary First, he connects the idea to losing his mother as a boy.

DOCUVIEW DÉJÀ VU PICKS

Ken's picks are in Part 2

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/4a8000

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Ken Burns

Documentary Filmmaker

Ken Burns was born in Brooklyn in 1953 and has been making documentaries since Brooklyn Bridge, made in 1981 and nominated for an Academy Award. His films for PBS include The Civil War, Baseball, Jazz, The War, The National Parks: America's Best Idea, Prohibition, The Roosevelts: An Intimate History, The Vietnam War, Country Music, The U.S. and the Holocaust and The American Buffalo. He has lived and worked in a small town in New Hampshire for more than four decades.

Website

Facebook

X

YouTube

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

THE KEN BURNS EPISODES


RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>322053fb-aaca-4ccd-b284-da6331be9067Sun, 15 Oct 2023 21:13:00 -050034:06falsefull208208Episode 207 | Mastering Film Promotion with Andrew Cohen, A Guide for FilmmakersEpisode 207 | Mastering Film Promotion with Andrew Cohen, A Guide for FilmmakersWelcome back, listeners, to another insightful episode of Documentary First! Today, we’re thrilled to have Andrew Cohen, a seasoned expert from Impact 24 PR, back with us. In this installment, we’re diving deep into the world of film promotion, and how filmmakers can truly make their mark with the help of a skilled PR company or publicist.

Andrew shares invaluable insights on two fundamental PR principles that every filmmaker should embrace. First and foremost, the importance of kicking off your promotional efforts early, right from the pre-production phase. And secondly, the power of documenting your creative journey. Throughout the episode, Andrew takes us through what these principles look like in action, and the incredible benefits they bring to any project.

Christian also lends her own experiences and successes with these principles, shedding light on how she’s integrated them into her own endeavors. But that’s not all! Christian opens up about her initial challenges with her first publicist, and probes Andrew on the crucial factors to consider when seeking the perfect fit.

Andrew offers invaluable advice on how the landscape of PR is evolving and emphasizes the need for adaptability and realistic expectations. And as always, he reminds us that networking remains paramount in finding that ideal PR partner.

But wait there’s more! Fresh from the bustling scene of the Toronto International Film Festival (TIFF), Andrew shares his recent experiences and the exciting trends he observed. To cap it off, Christian puts Andrew on the spot, asking him to unveil his Top 5 Film Festivals that every filmmaker should have on their radar, whether they’ve submitted a film or not. So, grab your notebooks, folks, because today’s episode is packed with actionable strategies and insider tips to elevate your film’s promotional game. Let’s get started!

‌Timecodes:

  • Part 2 – Conversation with Andrew Cohen. 0:00
  • How can filmmakers up their game? 3:48
  • How to get the best from hiring the right publicist or PR company? 7:58
  • Film festivals and networking. 15:36
  • DocuView Déjà Vu Segment. 23:01
  • Last Thoughts from Andrew 27:31

DocuView Déjà Vu Recommendations:

Andrew: Gimme Shelter, 1970, GP, 91 mins, Prime, IMBD Link:

Gimme Shelter (1970) ⭐ 7.8 | Documentary, Music, Thriller

Josh: Full Swing, 2023 – Series, Netflix, IMDB Link:

Full Swing (TV Series 2023– ) ⭐ 8.0 | Documentary, Sport

Christian: Spy OPS, 2023 – Series, Netflix, IMDB Link:

Spy Ops (TV Series 2023– ) ⭐ 6.2 | Documentary

Andrew Cohen Socials:

Email: info@impact24pr.com

Website: Impact24 Public Relations

Instagram: @‌ansecoh

Twitter: @‌ascohenpr

]]>Welcome back, listeners, to another insightful episode of Documentary First! Today, we’re thrilled to have Andrew Cohen, a seasoned expert from Impact 24 PR, back with us. In this installment, we’re diving deep into the world of film promotion, and how filmmakers can truly make their mark with the help of a skilled PR company or publicist.

Andrew shares invaluable insights on two fundamental PR principles that every filmmaker should embrace. First and foremost, the importance of kicking off your promotional efforts early, right from the pre-production phase. And secondly, the power of documenting your creative journey. Throughout the episode, Andrew takes us through what these principles look like in action, and the incredible benefits they bring to any project.

Christian also lends her own experiences and successes with these principles, shedding light on how she’s integrated them into her own endeavors. But that’s not all! Christian opens up about her initial challenges with her first publicist, and probes Andrew on the crucial factors to consider when seeking the perfect fit.

Andrew offers invaluable advice on how the landscape of PR is evolving and emphasizes the need for adaptability and realistic expectations. And as always, he reminds us that networking remains paramount in finding that ideal PR partner.

But wait there’s more! Fresh from the bustling scene of the Toronto International Film Festival (TIFF), Andrew shares his recent experiences and the exciting trends he observed. To cap it off, Christian puts Andrew on the spot, asking him to unveil his Top 5 Film Festivals that every filmmaker should have on their radar, whether they’ve submitted a film or not. So, grab your notebooks, folks, because today’s episode is packed with actionable strategies and insider tips to elevate your film’s promotional game. Let’s get started!

‌Timecodes:

  • Part 2 – Conversation with Andrew Cohen. 0:00
  • How can filmmakers up their game? 3:48
  • How to get the best from hiring the right publicist or PR company? 7:58
  • Film festivals and networking. 15:36
  • DocuView Déjà Vu Segment. 23:01
  • Last Thoughts from Andrew 27:31

DocuView Déjà Vu Recommendations:

Andrew: Gimme Shelter, 1970, GP, 91 mins, Prime, IMBD Link:

Gimme Shelter (1970) ⭐ 7.8 | Documentary, Music, Thriller

Josh: Full Swing, 2023 – Series, Netflix, IMDB Link:

Full Swing (TV Series 2023– ) ⭐ 8.0 | Documentary, Sport

Christian: Spy OPS, 2023 – Series, Netflix, IMDB Link:

Spy Ops (TV Series 2023– ) ⭐ 6.2 | Documentary

Andrew Cohen Socials:

Email: info@impact24pr.com

Website: Impact24 Public Relations

Instagram: @‌ansecoh

Twitter: @‌ascohenpr

]]>3a793cc0-57d9-4f36-b19a-88dcba3a8764Thu, 12 Oct 2023 07:05:00 -050029:31falsefull207207Do You Need a Publicist for Your Documentary?Do You Need a Publicist for Your Documentary?Get ready for an episode packed with surprises! First up, our beloved former host, Josh Lindsay, makes a triumphant return, stepping in for Jason Rugg. His presence adds a special spark to today's show. And that's not all - we're also joined by the PR powerhouse, Andrew Seth Cohen from "Impact 24 PR."

Discover how Andrew and Christian's paths converged when "Impact 24 PR" extended a helping hand to Documentary First during their electrifying "Emmy" run. Christian's excitement knows no bounds, thanks to the stellar filmmakers that "Impact 24 PR" has introduced to our audience.

For filmmakers, navigating the realm of publicists and PR can feel like a mystifying maze. That's precisely why Andrew's insights are invaluable. Beyond his PR wizardry, Andrew is a seasoned animator, adding another layer to his creative repertoire.

In this episode, Andrew unveils his deep-seated passion for storytelling and filmmaking, revealing how it seamlessly melded with his role as a PR specialist. He spills the beans on his strategies for propelling films into the Emmy spotlight.

We wrap things up with a cliffhanger! What are the common missteps filmmakers make in their PR journey, whether they're teaming up with a publicist or going solo? The answer lies in our next episode, so be sure to tune in!

‌Timecodes:

  • Introduction to Andrew Seth Cohen and his story 00.00
  • Emmy campaign strategies for filmmakers. 9:33
  • Filmmaking, awards, budget and PR strategies. 14:01
  • DocuView Déjà Vu Segment. 19:05

‌

DocuView Déjà Vu Recommendation links:

Andrew: The Two Escobars, 2010, 104mins, ESPN 30 for 30 or Disney+, IMDB Link: The Two Escobars (2010) ⭐ 8.1 | Documentary, Biography, Sport

Josh: Quarterback, 2023, Series, Netflix, IMDB Link: Quarterback (TV Series 2023– ) ⭐ 8.1 | Documentary, Sport

Christian: “Ganz normale Manner - Der vergessene Holocaust” (Ordinary Men), 2022, 58mins, Netflix, IMDB Link: Ganz normale Männer - Der 'vergessene Holocaust' (TV Movie 2022) ⭐ 7.0 | Documentary, History, War

]]>Get ready for an episode packed with surprises! First up, our beloved former host, Josh Lindsay, makes a triumphant return, stepping in for Jason Rugg. His presence adds a special spark to today's show. And that's not all - we're also joined by the PR powerhouse, Andrew Seth Cohen from "Impact 24 PR."

Discover how Andrew and Christian's paths converged when "Impact 24 PR" extended a helping hand to Documentary First during their electrifying "Emmy" run. Christian's excitement knows no bounds, thanks to the stellar filmmakers that "Impact 24 PR" has introduced to our audience.

For filmmakers, navigating the realm of publicists and PR can feel like a mystifying maze. That's precisely why Andrew's insights are invaluable. Beyond his PR wizardry, Andrew is a seasoned animator, adding another layer to his creative repertoire.

In this episode, Andrew unveils his deep-seated passion for storytelling and filmmaking, revealing how it seamlessly melded with his role as a PR specialist. He spills the beans on his strategies for propelling films into the Emmy spotlight.

We wrap things up with a cliffhanger! What are the common missteps filmmakers make in their PR journey, whether they're teaming up with a publicist or going solo? The answer lies in our next episode, so be sure to tune in!

‌Timecodes:

  • Introduction to Andrew Seth Cohen and his story 00.00
  • Emmy campaign strategies for filmmakers. 9:33
  • Filmmaking, awards, budget and PR strategies. 14:01
  • DocuView Déjà Vu Segment. 19:05

‌

DocuView Déjà Vu Recommendation links:

Andrew: The Two Escobars, 2010, 104mins, ESPN 30 for 30 or Disney+, IMDB Link: The Two Escobars (2010) ⭐ 8.1 | Documentary, Biography, Sport

Josh: Quarterback, 2023, Series, Netflix, IMDB Link: Quarterback (TV Series 2023– ) ⭐ 8.1 | Documentary, Sport

Christian: “Ganz normale Manner - Der vergessene Holocaust” (Ordinary Men), 2022, 58mins, Netflix, IMDB Link: Ganz normale Männer - Der 'vergessene Holocaust' (TV Movie 2022) ⭐ 7.0 | Documentary, History, War

]]>92b39761-f65d-4b8a-b2fc-c667eec82964Thu, 28 Sep 2023 22:22:00 -050024:38falsefull206206Episode 205 | Nicolás Humberto Repetto Composer for "A Run for More"Episode 205 | Nicolás Humberto Repetto Composer for "A Run for More"This week, embark on a musical journey with Nicolas Humberto Repetto, a composer whose roots trace back to Argentina before finding a new home in sunny Florida at the tender age of five. His enchantment with music, especially the violin, as well as his gift for composition and orchestration, bloomed during his formative middle school years.

The intoxicating harmonies of triumph and the seductive allure of composition and orchestration beckoned Nicolas to the sprawling landscapes of LA. Here, he delved deeper into his passion for film scoring, skillfully merging it with cutting-edge technology.

Discover the riveting tale of how Nicolás Humberto Repetto sculpted the original score for a new feature documentary, “A Run for More,” which made it’s debut on Apple Music, May 3, 2023, followed by a widespread digital release. This cinematic masterpiece, directed by Pulitzer Prize-winner, Ray Whitehouse, unravels the compelling narrative of Frankie Gonzales-Wolfe—a transgender luminary vying for a seat in the San Antonio city council.

Join Christian and Jason as they dive into Nicolas’ creative process and unravel the pivotal dynamic between Director and Composer. Hear the invaluable lessons gleaned from the crucible of experience, exploring the art of scoring on a budget and the exhilaration of orchestrating with a full-fledged symphony.

Peek behind the curtains of the human psyche, discovering the interplay of emotions and music, and delve into the subtle “psychology” that underpins collaborative artistry.

As tradition dictates, we conclude this week’s “composition” with DocuView Déjà Vu, coupled with a succinct company update.

Timecodes:

• Introduction to Nicolás Repetto. 0:00

• **How did you become interested in music?** 2:47

• Films Nicolas has worked on and what work he is most proud of. 7:20

• How “A Run for More” came to be and Nicolas’ process in working on the score 12:39

• Defining some music terminology. 18:52

• **The Composer / Director Relationship and the importance of chemistry.** 24:03

• Words of advice and lessons learned. 33:55

• What Nicolas is most proud of in “A Run for More”? 39:44

• DocuView Déjà Vu 40:50

Related Links:

"A Run For More" Documentary: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt20562778/

Hollywood scores and soundtracks. What do they sound like by Every Frame a Painting: https://youtu.be/IEfQ_9DIItI

No Film School website: https://nofilmschool.com/

No Film School article: https://nofilmschool.com/composer-collaboration

DocuView Déjà Vu:

Nicolas: The Sound of Identity, 2020, 90 mins, Freevee/The Roku Channel/Prime, IMDB Link: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10156584/

Rock Hudson: All That Heaven Allowed, 2023, 104mins, Max / Prime, IMDB Link: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt13514636

Christian: Bombshell: The Hedy Lamarr Story, 2017, 88mins, Netflix / Prime, IMDB Link: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6752848/

]]>This week, embark on a musical journey with Nicolas Humberto Repetto, a composer whose roots trace back to Argentina before finding a new home in sunny Florida at the tender age of five. His enchantment with music, especially the violin, as well as his gift for composition and orchestration, bloomed during his formative middle school years.

The intoxicating harmonies of triumph and the seductive allure of composition and orchestration beckoned Nicolas to the sprawling landscapes of LA. Here, he delved deeper into his passion for film scoring, skillfully merging it with cutting-edge technology.

Discover the riveting tale of how Nicolás Humberto Repetto sculpted the original score for a new feature documentary, “A Run for More,” which made it’s debut on Apple Music, May 3, 2023, followed by a widespread digital release. This cinematic masterpiece, directed by Pulitzer Prize-winner, Ray Whitehouse, unravels the compelling narrative of Frankie Gonzales-Wolfe—a transgender luminary vying for a seat in the San Antonio city council.

Join Christian and Jason as they dive into Nicolas’ creative process and unravel the pivotal dynamic between Director and Composer. Hear the invaluable lessons gleaned from the crucible of experience, exploring the art of scoring on a budget and the exhilaration of orchestrating with a full-fledged symphony.

Peek behind the curtains of the human psyche, discovering the interplay of emotions and music, and delve into the subtle “psychology” that underpins collaborative artistry.

As tradition dictates, we conclude this week’s “composition” with DocuView Déjà Vu, coupled with a succinct company update.

Timecodes:

• Introduction to Nicolás Repetto. 0:00

• **How did you become interested in music?** 2:47

• Films Nicolas has worked on and what work he is most proud of. 7:20

• How “A Run for More” came to be and Nicolas’ process in working on the score 12:39

• Defining some music terminology. 18:52

• **The Composer / Director Relationship and the importance of chemistry.** 24:03

• Words of advice and lessons learned. 33:55

• What Nicolas is most proud of in “A Run for More”? 39:44

• DocuView Déjà Vu 40:50

Related Links:

"A Run For More" Documentary: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt20562778/

Hollywood scores and soundtracks. What do they sound like by Every Frame a Painting: https://youtu.be/IEfQ_9DIItI

No Film School website: https://nofilmschool.com/

No Film School article: https://nofilmschool.com/composer-collaboration

DocuView Déjà Vu:

Nicolas: The Sound of Identity, 2020, 90 mins, Freevee/The Roku Channel/Prime, IMDB Link: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10156584/

Rock Hudson: All That Heaven Allowed, 2023, 104mins, Max / Prime, IMDB Link: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt13514636

Christian: Bombshell: The Hedy Lamarr Story, 2017, 88mins, Netflix / Prime, IMDB Link: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6752848/

]]>d7d75fe5-fbd9-44fc-9820-a6d2136c6d65Thu, 14 Sep 2023 06:22:00 -050045:58falsefull205205Episode 204 | Heartfelt Journey, Filmmaker's Healing with Craig RenaudEpisode 204 | Heartfelt Journey, Filmmaker's Healing with Craig RenaudGet ready for an emotional and captivating journey in this week's episode of Documentary First. Join hosts Christian and Jason as they dive deep into an heartfelt conversation with none other than Craig Renaud, an acclaimed Peabody award-winning filmmaker. Brace yourself for a raw and touching exchange as Craig opens up about his personal connection to his latest project "SOUTHERN STORYTELLERS."

Venture into the world of "SOUTHERN STORYTELLERS," a mesmerizing three-part miniseries that escorts you into the heart of the American South. Craig Renaud, known for his prowess in bringing compelling stories to life, introduces us to some of the region's most influential creators. Through his lens, we get to journey alongside these remarkable individuals and explore the very essence of the places they call home.

But this isn't just any project for Craig – it's a poignant departure from his norm. For the first time, he's embarking on a creative endeavor without his brother and longtime collaborator, Brent. The bond between these two was unbreakable, forged through countless shared experiences. As Craig delves into their gripping journey, he recounts their early days of covering global conflicts and reveals the heart-wrenching truth about Brent, the first American journalist tragically lost in the turmoil of Ukraine in 2022.

The conversation delves even deeper into Craig's creative process, unveiling the intricate threads that weave his documentaries into compelling narratives. Tune in as he shares the intimate details of how "SOUTHERN STORYTELLERS" emerged from his own healing journey – a project that became more than just a film, but a means to cope with loss.

But that's not all – hear exclusive insights into Craig's upcoming projects, including a touching tribute to his brother Brent. Amidst the anecdotes and industry wisdom, Craig reminds us that mistakes are an inevitable part of the creative process and offers a powerful dose of encouragement for those who might be on the brink of giving up.

Of course, no episode of Documentary First is complete without our DocuView Déjà Vu segment, offering a fresh perspective on past gems. Plus, Christian provides a company update and a sneak peek into what's on the horizon – a future episode featuring Craig, where he unravels the challenges faced by independent filmmakers striving to carve a niche and make their mark. Learn firsthand the art of collaborating with PBS, especially when it comes to showcasing the magic of documentary films.

Don't miss this chance to embark on an emotional rollercoaster, as Craig Renaud's story resonates deeply and reminds us of the power of storytelling, healing, and the unbreakable bonds that shape our lives. Tune in now!

Timecodes:

  • Introduction to Craig Renaud. 0:00
  • Working with his brother Brent Renaud & John Alpert. 1:47
  • How to make peace with the loss. 8:43
  • The process of doing a documentary without Brent. 12:19
  • Getting to know them as people. 20:37
  • Sticking to the story and not the story. 28:55
  • Finding archival footage for the film. 33:31
  • Getting comfortable with making mistakes. 40:17
  • DocuView Déjà Vu 42:44

Craig: Summer of Soul, 2021, PG-13, Hulu / Prime Video, 118mins, IMDB Link: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11422728/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

Christian: Mercury 13, 2018, 78 mins, Netflix, IMDB Link: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8139850/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0_tt_7_nm_1_q_mercury%252013

Jason: “Master Cinematographer Conrad Hall, ASC talk cinematography” , 124mins, Youtube Link: Master Cinematographer CONRAD HALL ASC Talks Cinematography

  • Christian’s Company update. 47:42

Find more information about Brent and his work and mentoring, including his foundation and mentorship, below on the websites.

http://BrentRenaudFoundation.org

link: HOME | Renaud B Redesign

]]>Get ready for an emotional and captivating journey in this week's episode of Documentary First. Join hosts Christian and Jason as they dive deep into an heartfelt conversation with none other than Craig Renaud, an acclaimed Peabody award-winning filmmaker. Brace yourself for a raw and touching exchange as Craig opens up about his personal connection to his latest project "SOUTHERN STORYTELLERS."

Venture into the world of "SOUTHERN STORYTELLERS," a mesmerizing three-part miniseries that escorts you into the heart of the American South. Craig Renaud, known for his prowess in bringing compelling stories to life, introduces us to some of the region's most influential creators. Through his lens, we get to journey alongside these remarkable individuals and explore the very essence of the places they call home.

But this isn't just any project for Craig – it's a poignant departure from his norm. For the first time, he's embarking on a creative endeavor without his brother and longtime collaborator, Brent. The bond between these two was unbreakable, forged through countless shared experiences. As Craig delves into their gripping journey, he recounts their early days of covering global conflicts and reveals the heart-wrenching truth about Brent, the first American journalist tragically lost in the turmoil of Ukraine in 2022.

The conversation delves even deeper into Craig's creative process, unveiling the intricate threads that weave his documentaries into compelling narratives. Tune in as he shares the intimate details of how "SOUTHERN STORYTELLERS" emerged from his own healing journey – a project that became more than just a film, but a means to cope with loss.

But that's not all – hear exclusive insights into Craig's upcoming projects, including a touching tribute to his brother Brent. Amidst the anecdotes and industry wisdom, Craig reminds us that mistakes are an inevitable part of the creative process and offers a powerful dose of encouragement for those who might be on the brink of giving up.

Of course, no episode of Documentary First is complete without our DocuView Déjà Vu segment, offering a fresh perspective on past gems. Plus, Christian provides a company update and a sneak peek into what's on the horizon – a future episode featuring Craig, where he unravels the challenges faced by independent filmmakers striving to carve a niche and make their mark. Learn firsthand the art of collaborating with PBS, especially when it comes to showcasing the magic of documentary films.

Don't miss this chance to embark on an emotional rollercoaster, as Craig Renaud's story resonates deeply and reminds us of the power of storytelling, healing, and the unbreakable bonds that shape our lives. Tune in now!

Timecodes:

  • Introduction to Craig Renaud. 0:00
  • Working with his brother Brent Renaud & John Alpert. 1:47
  • How to make peace with the loss. 8:43
  • The process of doing a documentary without Brent. 12:19
  • Getting to know them as people. 20:37
  • Sticking to the story and not the story. 28:55
  • Finding archival footage for the film. 33:31
  • Getting comfortable with making mistakes. 40:17
  • DocuView Déjà Vu 42:44

Craig: Summer of Soul, 2021, PG-13, Hulu / Prime Video, 118mins, IMDB Link: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11422728/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

Christian: Mercury 13, 2018, 78 mins, Netflix, IMDB Link: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8139850/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0_tt_7_nm_1_q_mercury%252013

Jason: “Master Cinematographer Conrad Hall, ASC talk cinematography” , 124mins, Youtube Link: Master Cinematographer CONRAD HALL ASC Talks Cinematography

  • Christian’s Company update. 47:42

Find more information about Brent and his work and mentoring, including his foundation and mentorship, below on the websites.

http://BrentRenaudFoundation.org

link: HOME | Renaud B Redesign

]]>4b6fd698-e553-490d-91db-d585a5cf623fThu, 31 Aug 2023 13:55:00 -050049:35falsefull204204Prehistoric Planet Composers on Building Instruments From FossilsPrehistoric Planet Composers on Building Instruments From FossilsHow do you write music for animals no one has heard in 66 million years?

That was the puzzle for composers Anže Rozman and Kara Talve on season two of Prehistoric Planet, the Apple TV+ natural history series narrated by Sir David Attenborough. The producers wanted audiences to feel they were watching real animals living their lives, like an episode of Planet Earth. So the music had two jobs: make these creatures relatable, and carry the listener back in time. Their answer was an orchestra on one side, and on the other, instruments built from the things we study dinosaurs with today: fossils, bones, fossil replicas, rocks and petrified wood.

In Episode 203, Christian Taylor and co-host Jason Rugg talk with Anže and Kara, who met at Hans Zimmer's composer collective Bleeding Fingers Music and scored the series with Zimmer. Anže grew up in Slovenia, where, he says, every village has its own church choir or brass band. He started composing at nine and laughs that the next ten years were "not a pleasant listening experience." Kara grew up between her grandmother's classical piano and her dad's jazz guitar, fell for the film music of Thomas Newman, went to Berklee, and worked as a tech assistant at Bleeding Fingers for a few months before she was promoted to composer.

Anže holds up the Triceratone on camera, the last instrument they built for season two, made from a dinosaur skull replica and a double bass neck. They talk about the shock of an Emmy nomination, what it's like to work with Hans "basically working next door," and their advice for anyone who wants a career in Los Angeles: love the work enough to put in the hours, and be someone people want to work with. After the interview, Christian shares news from two sold-out screenings of The Girl Who Wore Freedom in Ormond Beach, Florida, and a research trip to Fort Campbell, and she and Jason talk about the 2023 strikes and what they might change.

WATCH THE FILM: Prehistoric Planet streams on Apple TV+.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How growing up in Slovenia shaped Anže's love of music
  • Why Anže says passion and time matter more than talent
  • How Kara went from Berklee to tech assistant to composer
  • What it's like to learn from Hans Zimmer at Bleeding Fingers
  • Why the team made instruments out of fossils and petrified wood
  • How an orchestra and dinosaur-bone instruments share one score
  • Why Christian and Jason hope the 2023 strikes change how crews get paid

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Who composed the music for Prehistoric Planet?

Hans Zimmer, Anže Rozman and Kara Talve scored Prehistoric Planet for Apple TV+, working through Zimmer's Bleeding Fingers Music. Anže and Kara say they met at Bleeding Fingers, where composers each run their own projects but collaborate and share what they know. Season two premiered May 22, 2023, and their score for the episode "Badlands" was nominated for a Primetime Emmy.

What instruments were used in the Prehistoric Planet score?

Anže Rozman says the team recorded the BBC National Orchestra of Wales to make the animals feel real and relatable, then built instruments from the materials we study dinosaurs with today: fossils, bones, fossil replicas, rocks and petrified wood. The last one built for season two, the Triceratone, combines a dinosaur skull replica with a double bass neck.

How do you become a film composer?

Anže Rozman says it isn't about talent so much as the passion and time you're willing to put in, and that it's very hard to work on music every day and get worse. Kara Talve says the 10,000 hours are real, and that you should be someone people want to work with. She suggests listening to people's work and connecting before asking for help, because cold emails rarely go anywhere.

Was Prehistoric Planet nominated for an Emmy?

Yes. Hans Zimmer, Anže Rozman and Kara Talve were nominated at the 75th Primetime Creative Arts Emmys for Outstanding Music Composition for a Documentary Series or Special (Original Dramatic Score), for the season two episode "Badlands." Anže says they were so sure they wouldn't be nominated that they weren't even refreshing the page.

DOCUVIEW DEJA VIEW PICKS

  • The Staircase (2004), directed by Jean-Xavier de Lestrade. Kara's pick, the true crime series about the Michael Peterson murder trial, now on Netflix.
  • Ancient Apocalypse (2022), Netflix. Anže's pick, in which writer Graham Hancock presents his theory of a lost civilization before the end of the last ice age, a theory many experts dispute.
  • The Changing Hollywood Landscape (2023), Fresh Air from NPR. Christian's pick, Terry Gross with Bloomberg reporter Lucas Shaw.

See every guest pick on the DocuView Deja View page.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen on your favorite app: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT

Documentary First: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUESTS

Anže Rozman is a Slovenian composer of concert and media music and a composer at Hans Zimmer's Bleeding Fingers Music. He studied composition at the music academy in Ljubljana and earned a Master of Music in scoring for film, television and video games at Berklee's Valencia campus. His credits include BBC's The Universe and The Planets, the IMAX film Great Bear Rainforest and the opening title music for BBC's Frozen Planet II, both co-composed with Hans Zimmer, and music for The Simpsons. Anže at Berklee

Kara Talve is a film and television composer at Bleeding Fingers Music, originally from Long Island, New York. She graduated from Berklee College of Music in 2018 with a degree in film scoring and a minor in video game scoring. She co-scored Prehistoric Planet with Anže and Hans Zimmer, and at the time of this episode had been a principal composer on The Simpsons for four seasons. Kara at Berklee

About the series: Prehistoric Planet is executive produced by Jon Favreau and Mike Gunton, produced by the BBC Studios Natural History Unit for Apple TV+, and narrated in its first two seasons by Sir David Attenborough.

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>How do you write music for animals no one has heard in 66 million years?

That was the puzzle for composers Anže Rozman and Kara Talve on season two of Prehistoric Planet, the Apple TV+ natural history series narrated by Sir David Attenborough. The producers wanted audiences to feel they were watching real animals living their lives, like an episode of Planet Earth. So the music had two jobs: make these creatures relatable, and carry the listener back in time. Their answer was an orchestra on one side, and on the other, instruments built from the things we study dinosaurs with today: fossils, bones, fossil replicas, rocks and petrified wood.

In Episode 203, Christian Taylor and co-host Jason Rugg talk with Anže and Kara, who met at Hans Zimmer's composer collective Bleeding Fingers Music and scored the series with Zimmer. Anže grew up in Slovenia, where, he says, every village has its own church choir or brass band. He started composing at nine and laughs that the next ten years were "not a pleasant listening experience." Kara grew up between her grandmother's classical piano and her dad's jazz guitar, fell for the film music of Thomas Newman, went to Berklee, and worked as a tech assistant at Bleeding Fingers for a few months before she was promoted to composer.

Anže holds up the Triceratone on camera, the last instrument they built for season two, made from a dinosaur skull replica and a double bass neck. They talk about the shock of an Emmy nomination, what it's like to work with Hans "basically working next door," and their advice for anyone who wants a career in Los Angeles: love the work enough to put in the hours, and be someone people want to work with. After the interview, Christian shares news from two sold-out screenings of The Girl Who Wore Freedom in Ormond Beach, Florida, and a research trip to Fort Campbell, and she and Jason talk about the 2023 strikes and what they might change.

WATCH THE FILM: Prehistoric Planet streams on Apple TV+.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How growing up in Slovenia shaped Anže's love of music
  • Why Anže says passion and time matter more than talent
  • How Kara went from Berklee to tech assistant to composer
  • What it's like to learn from Hans Zimmer at Bleeding Fingers
  • Why the team made instruments out of fossils and petrified wood
  • How an orchestra and dinosaur-bone instruments share one score
  • Why Christian and Jason hope the 2023 strikes change how crews get paid

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Who composed the music for Prehistoric Planet?

Hans Zimmer, Anže Rozman and Kara Talve scored Prehistoric Planet for Apple TV+, working through Zimmer's Bleeding Fingers Music. Anže and Kara say they met at Bleeding Fingers, where composers each run their own projects but collaborate and share what they know. Season two premiered May 22, 2023, and their score for the episode "Badlands" was nominated for a Primetime Emmy.

What instruments were used in the Prehistoric Planet score?

Anže Rozman says the team recorded the BBC National Orchestra of Wales to make the animals feel real and relatable, then built instruments from the materials we study dinosaurs with today: fossils, bones, fossil replicas, rocks and petrified wood. The last one built for season two, the Triceratone, combines a dinosaur skull replica with a double bass neck.

How do you become a film composer?

Anže Rozman says it isn't about talent so much as the passion and time you're willing to put in, and that it's very hard to work on music every day and get worse. Kara Talve says the 10,000 hours are real, and that you should be someone people want to work with. She suggests listening to people's work and connecting before asking for help, because cold emails rarely go anywhere.

Was Prehistoric Planet nominated for an Emmy?

Yes. Hans Zimmer, Anže Rozman and Kara Talve were nominated at the 75th Primetime Creative Arts Emmys for Outstanding Music Composition for a Documentary Series or Special (Original Dramatic Score), for the season two episode "Badlands." Anže says they were so sure they wouldn't be nominated that they weren't even refreshing the page.

DOCUVIEW DEJA VIEW PICKS

  • The Staircase (2004), directed by Jean-Xavier de Lestrade. Kara's pick, the true crime series about the Michael Peterson murder trial, now on Netflix.
  • Ancient Apocalypse (2022), Netflix. Anže's pick, in which writer Graham Hancock presents his theory of a lost civilization before the end of the last ice age, a theory many experts dispute.
  • The Changing Hollywood Landscape (2023), Fresh Air from NPR. Christian's pick, Terry Gross with Bloomberg reporter Lucas Shaw.

See every guest pick on the DocuView Deja View page.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen on your favorite app: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT

Documentary First: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUESTS

Anže Rozman is a Slovenian composer of concert and media music and a composer at Hans Zimmer's Bleeding Fingers Music. He studied composition at the music academy in Ljubljana and earned a Master of Music in scoring for film, television and video games at Berklee's Valencia campus. His credits include BBC's The Universe and The Planets, the IMAX film Great Bear Rainforest and the opening title music for BBC's Frozen Planet II, both co-composed with Hans Zimmer, and music for The Simpsons. Anže at Berklee

Kara Talve is a film and television composer at Bleeding Fingers Music, originally from Long Island, New York. She graduated from Berklee College of Music in 2018 with a degree in film scoring and a minor in video game scoring. She co-scored Prehistoric Planet with Anže and Hans Zimmer, and at the time of this episode had been a principal composer on The Simpsons for four seasons. Kara at Berklee

About the series: Prehistoric Planet is executive produced by Jon Favreau and Mike Gunton, produced by the BBC Studios Natural History Unit for Apple TV+, and narrated in its first two seasons by Sir David Attenborough.

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>019091b5-02b4-4741-8c5f-9b60cd73bcf5Thu, 17 Aug 2023 07:09:00 -050040:37falsefull203203Episode 202 | Human Footprint - Part 2Episode 202 | Human Footprint - Part 2In part 2 of “Human Footprint” Christian and Jason continue their chat with the creators and directors of Human Footprint, Neil Losin & Nate Dappen.

Listen to how Neil & Nate filmed the series on a budget, with a small crew of a maximum of 5 people. Hear some of their favorite experiences while grinding and pushing their team to the limit. Seeing elephants from a helicopter and people on dog sleds hunting Polar Bears are just two of the experiences that have marked their lives while making Human Footprint.

Music is key to setting the tone and emotion to visuals. We learn about their connection with PBS helping out with some of the licensing of the music used as well as how their “Hip-Hop” composer Andy Young came to be a part of the project.

To close, Neil & Nate gave their pearls of wisdom and pieces of advice to filmmakers. Along with Christian’s best reminder of not getting discouraged, don’t give up - DO NOT QUIT!!!

PBS Link: https://www.pbs.org/show/human-footprint/

  • Intro to Documentary First. 0:00Welcome back to Documentary First, continuing the conversation with Nate & Neil from Human Footprint.
  • What was the budget and how was it used, travel and music?
  • Traveling for the show. 1:20A lot of travel for 120 days of filming.
  • Shooting in 44 different cities, 80 beds, sets, states, Arctic Sea Ice.
  • Shooting 4 different acts for 4 different episodes
  • Allot of pre-production and research in preparation for all the travel.
  • Starbucks budget larger than the actual food budget……
  • Team of 5 people max. Pushing everyone to their limits.
  • Shooting dogs, rats, starlings, cities and cities.
  • How they economized their travel costs. 5:47Listen to people and give them what they need.
  • Learned to economize in various ways.
  • Neil’s unique experience and favorite place
  • The evolution of tusklessness and elephants.
  • Flying over the park in a helicopter.
  • Nate’s most unique experience. 10:05Episode about how dogs have shaped culture.
  • Unique experience in the Arctic with a young Inuit sled dog hunter.
  • Arctic adventure. The sun doesn't set in the summer - losing track of time, skeleton crew, a wild experience even trying to get there.
  • Hunting polar bears on the sea ice. 12:44Polar bear hunting on the sea ice.
  • The cinematography of the first episode.
  • Three highly trained, highly skilled shooters on the project.
  • A lot of collaboration and sponsorship from Canon with lenses to help bring cinema-level quality. Taking the visuals very seriously.
  • Intuitive filmmaking and music budget. 17:32Biology and natural history as a fact factor.
  • Having veteran natural history shooters on the project.
  • Music budget and getting the rights.
  • Wanting a 90’s HipHop aesthetic - fresh and vibrant
  • Using popular tracks and licensing them where possible.
  • PBS has a special arrangement for music - “A compulsory license” - Nate & Neil explain.
  • Distribution from PBS to elsewhere changes everything
  • How much of the music is composed?
  • How Adrian Young got involved in the project.
  • How the music came together.
  • Creating a modern look and style. 24:41Creating a modern, modern feel for the series.
  • Allowed each editor to show what they think it should look like.
  • How Andy Laub became lead editor. Has an extensive back ground including music editing.
  • How the editing style was developed for the show. A group brainstorming session to help guide this.
  • A combination of the action sports, the traditional Natural History science world, mixed with modern social media type style
  • Biggest challenge for Neil.
  • Knowing what’s enough in the episodes. 29:04Hardest thing for a series like this.
  • Physical and emotional grind of filming.
  • Striking a balance between documentary and information and not be “preachy'.
  • DocuView Déjà Vu recommendations.
  • 4 Recommendations one of which was “My Octopus Teacher” - recommended previously (See the other 3 recommendations listed below).
  • Advice for filmmakers. 34:12Neil & Nate's best piece of advice for new filmmakers.

DocuView Déjà Vu

Nate: 100 Foot Wave, Series 2021, HBOMax, IMDB Link: 100 Foot Wave (TV Series 2021– ) ⭐ 8.1 | Documentary, Sport

My Octopus Teacher, 2020, 85 mins, Netflix, IMDB Link: My Octopus Teacher (2020) ⭐ 8.1 | Documentary

Chimp Empire, S2023, Series, Netfilx, IMDB Link: Chimp Empire (TV Mini Series 2023) ⭐ 8.3 | Documentary

Jago: Alife Underwater, 2015, 48 mins, Watch on Amazon or Curiosity, IMDB Link: Jago: A Life Underwater (2015) ⭐ 7.4 | Documentary

]]>In part 2 of “Human Footprint” Christian and Jason continue their chat with the creators and directors of Human Footprint, Neil Losin & Nate Dappen.

Listen to how Neil & Nate filmed the series on a budget, with a small crew of a maximum of 5 people. Hear some of their favorite experiences while grinding and pushing their team to the limit. Seeing elephants from a helicopter and people on dog sleds hunting Polar Bears are just two of the experiences that have marked their lives while making Human Footprint.

Music is key to setting the tone and emotion to visuals. We learn about their connection with PBS helping out with some of the licensing of the music used as well as how their “Hip-Hop” composer Andy Young came to be a part of the project.

To close, Neil & Nate gave their pearls of wisdom and pieces of advice to filmmakers. Along with Christian’s best reminder of not getting discouraged, don’t give up - DO NOT QUIT!!!

PBS Link: https://www.pbs.org/show/human-footprint/

  • Intro to Documentary First. 0:00Welcome back to Documentary First, continuing the conversation with Nate & Neil from Human Footprint.
  • What was the budget and how was it used, travel and music?
  • Traveling for the show. 1:20A lot of travel for 120 days of filming.
  • Shooting in 44 different cities, 80 beds, sets, states, Arctic Sea Ice.
  • Shooting 4 different acts for 4 different episodes
  • Allot of pre-production and research in preparation for all the travel.
  • Starbucks budget larger than the actual food budget……
  • Team of 5 people max. Pushing everyone to their limits.
  • Shooting dogs, rats, starlings, cities and cities.
  • How they economized their travel costs. 5:47Listen to people and give them what they need.
  • Learned to economize in various ways.
  • Neil’s unique experience and favorite place
  • The evolution of tusklessness and elephants.
  • Flying over the park in a helicopter.
  • Nate’s most unique experience. 10:05Episode about how dogs have shaped culture.
  • Unique experience in the Arctic with a young Inuit sled dog hunter.
  • Arctic adventure. The sun doesn't set in the summer - losing track of time, skeleton crew, a wild experience even trying to get there.
  • Hunting polar bears on the sea ice. 12:44Polar bear hunting on the sea ice.
  • The cinematography of the first episode.
  • Three highly trained, highly skilled shooters on the project.
  • A lot of collaboration and sponsorship from Canon with lenses to help bring cinema-level quality. Taking the visuals very seriously.
  • Intuitive filmmaking and music budget. 17:32Biology and natural history as a fact factor.
  • Having veteran natural history shooters on the project.
  • Music budget and getting the rights.
  • Wanting a 90’s HipHop aesthetic - fresh and vibrant
  • Using popular tracks and licensing them where possible.
  • PBS has a special arrangement for music - “A compulsory license” - Nate & Neil explain.
  • Distribution from PBS to elsewhere changes everything
  • How much of the music is composed?
  • How Adrian Young got involved in the project.
  • How the music came together.
  • Creating a modern look and style. 24:41Creating a modern, modern feel for the series.
  • Allowed each editor to show what they think it should look like.
  • How Andy Laub became lead editor. Has an extensive back ground including music editing.
  • How the editing style was developed for the show. A group brainstorming session to help guide this.
  • A combination of the action sports, the traditional Natural History science world, mixed with modern social media type style
  • Biggest challenge for Neil.
  • Knowing what’s enough in the episodes. 29:04Hardest thing for a series like this.
  • Physical and emotional grind of filming.
  • Striking a balance between documentary and information and not be “preachy'.
  • DocuView Déjà Vu recommendations.
  • 4 Recommendations one of which was “My Octopus Teacher” - recommended previously (See the other 3 recommendations listed below).
  • Advice for filmmakers. 34:12Neil & Nate's best piece of advice for new filmmakers.

DocuView Déjà Vu

Nate: 100 Foot Wave, Series 2021, HBOMax, IMDB Link: 100 Foot Wave (TV Series 2021– ) ⭐ 8.1 | Documentary, Sport

My Octopus Teacher, 2020, 85 mins, Netflix, IMDB Link: My Octopus Teacher (2020) ⭐ 8.1 | Documentary

Chimp Empire, S2023, Series, Netfilx, IMDB Link: Chimp Empire (TV Mini Series 2023) ⭐ 8.3 | Documentary

Jago: Alife Underwater, 2015, 48 mins, Watch on Amazon or Curiosity, IMDB Link: Jago: A Life Underwater (2015) ⭐ 7.4 | Documentary

]]>25fd9bee-7930-418c-9782-988a0d6c3d49Thu, 03 Aug 2023 05:00:00 -050040:40falsefull202202Episode 201 | Human Footprint - Part 1Episode 201 | Human Footprint - Part 1Witness an unexpected journey of science and photography colliding with filmmaking to become an amazing PBS series called “Human Footprint”. Who said science couldn’t be engaging and thought provoking?

In this Part 1 episode, Christian and Jason chat with the creators and directors of “Human Footprint”, Neil Losin & Nathan Dappen. They tell us their journey of making “terrible” videos, a partnership with fellow geek scientist Shane Campbell-Staton and the serendipitous connection to PBS that allowed them to share their vision: cultivating a love for science, looking after the Earth and observing mankind’s impact on the environment and culture.

This is an amazing journey into filmmaking from an unconventional starting point. The perseverance, grind and fun along the way, including making connections with the right people at the right time, result in a great story about getting funding from unconventional sources.

Timecodes:

  • Introduction to our guests. 0:00
  • How the series came to be. 2:51
  • The hopeful impact and awareness of story on the viewer. 7:01
  • How they met and started collaborating. 10:54
  • Living on two different coasts and have never lived int he same place and possibly see each other more than their partners. 17:39
  • How long did it take to get the show greenlit? 21:42
  • How did they get to the pitch point? 28:18
  • The importance of getting a grant. 32:25
  • How did you did the grants help to get you started? 36:39
  • How did you pitch the idea to PBS? 41:30
  • What was the budget for the series? 46:02
  • The difference between producing and directing. 52:10
  • DocuView Déjà Vu 55:13
  • Documentary First Update 1:05:21

DocuView Déjà Vu:


]]>Witness an unexpected journey of science and photography colliding with filmmaking to become an amazing PBS series called “Human Footprint”. Who said science couldn’t be engaging and thought provoking?

In this Part 1 episode, Christian and Jason chat with the creators and directors of “Human Footprint”, Neil Losin & Nathan Dappen. They tell us their journey of making “terrible” videos, a partnership with fellow geek scientist Shane Campbell-Staton and the serendipitous connection to PBS that allowed them to share their vision: cultivating a love for science, looking after the Earth and observing mankind’s impact on the environment and culture.

This is an amazing journey into filmmaking from an unconventional starting point. The perseverance, grind and fun along the way, including making connections with the right people at the right time, result in a great story about getting funding from unconventional sources.

Timecodes:

  • Introduction to our guests. 0:00
  • How the series came to be. 2:51
  • The hopeful impact and awareness of story on the viewer. 7:01
  • How they met and started collaborating. 10:54
  • Living on two different coasts and have never lived int he same place and possibly see each other more than their partners. 17:39
  • How long did it take to get the show greenlit? 21:42
  • How did they get to the pitch point? 28:18
  • The importance of getting a grant. 32:25
  • How did you did the grants help to get you started? 36:39
  • How did you pitch the idea to PBS? 41:30
  • What was the budget for the series? 46:02
  • The difference between producing and directing. 52:10
  • DocuView Déjà Vu 55:13
  • Documentary First Update 1:05:21

DocuView Déjà Vu:


]]>db2afa9a-2d55-4b1e-8350-1ae5bfea100dThu, 20 Jul 2023 03:55:00 -050001:08:30falsefull201201Episode 200 | To The Stars Through Hardship - Per Aspera Ad Astra!Episode 200 | To The Stars Through Hardship - Per Aspera Ad Astra!Welcome to the latest episode of Documentary First, as we celebrate a momentous achievement: Our 200th Episode!

Join Christian and Jason as they dive deep into the past four years of our thought-provoking and inspiring podcast. Together, they remind us of the indispensable quality that every filmmaker must possess: tenacity. Prepare to be encouraged and motivated as they unveil the secrets to success in the ever-evolving world of cinema.

For a filmmaker, perseverance is the key that unlocks the gateway to the stars. These stars can take many forms, both figurative and literal, representing the pinnacle of our aspirations.

Just like steadfast guides, the stars watch over us, ever-present and within our grasp. They serve as a constant reminder that even though our goals may seem distant, they remain visible and within reach. With every courageous step we take towards our cinematic vision, we are bound to encounter challenges along the way. But fear not! These very adversities become the stepping stones that lead us towards the dazzling radiance of the stars we were destined to reach.

Get ready to be inspired as we continue to share the remarkable odyssey of filmmaking. We have an abundance of new, talented filmmakers waiting in the wings, eager to join us and delve into their unique processes and awe-inspiring experiences. It's a rollercoaster ride you won't want to miss!

And that's not all! Brace yourselves, because DocuView Déjà Vu is making a triumphant return! Get ready to rediscover your love for documentary films and relive those unforgettable cinematic moments.

So buckle up, dear listeners, as we embark on another thrilling chapter filled with passion, creativity, and the relentless pursuit of our cinematic dreams. Welcome to a podcast that will ignite your imagination and leave you craving more. Let's make magic happen together!

Summary

  • Intro to Documentary First. 0:00
  • Welcome back to Documentary First and inside look at a documentary filmmaker journey.
  • Episode 200.
  • How the podcast was born.
  • Being an improviser as a filmmaker. 6:01
  • Finding volunteers and flying people across the world.
  • Being an improviser, solving problems.
  • Journey from not finished movie to completed movie.
  • Heroes of Carentan.
  • How the film industry has changed. 10:59
  • How the world has changed since pre-Covid.
  • The challenges for independent filmmakers.
  • The art of turning adversity into advantage.
  • The difference between a filmmaker and everyone else.
  • The best piece of advice Jason has ever gotten.
  • Do the next thing first.
  • How did Jason become a voice actor? 17:28
  • Pursuing voice acting and animation.
  • How the pandemic changed the animation industry.
  • How Covid-19 has lowered the standards of what is acceptable.
  • Tiktok vs Instagram.
  • The problem with Social Media and content. 21:26
  • How people consume Tiktok and Instagram reels.
  • How film is designed to make you feel.
  • Making a deal with the devil.
  • Why independent filmmakers need to market their films.
  • The marketing strategy for "God's Not Dead".
  • Encounter with General JP McGee. 28:21
  • How Christian met General JP McGee, commanding general of the 101st Airborne Division.
  • Partnership with the 101st Airborne Division
  • Powerful interviews with the 101st Airborne Division.
  • The synergy of past and present coming through the interviews
  • The cost of combat.
  • Do not give up on your film. 34:11
  • Heart comes through in everything at Doc First.
  • Word of encouragement, don't quit.
  • DocuView Déjà Vu Segment
  • Book: The Obstacle is the Way
  • Coming soon to the podcast - New filmmakers in the wings!

DocuView Déjà Vu:

Jason - Still: A Michael J Fox Movie, 2023, Rated R, 95 mins on Apple+, IMDB Link: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt19853258/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0_tt_8_nm_0_q_still

Christian - The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck, Rated R, 2023, 97 mins, Rent or buy on Prime Video or inflight in United Airlines, IMDB Link: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt12380422/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_7_tt_8_nm_0_q_the%2520sublte

“A Man Called Otto” - 2022, 126 mins, PG13, in flight on United Airlines, IMDB Link:https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7405458/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0_tt_8_nm_0_q_a%2520man%2520called

]]>Welcome to the latest episode of Documentary First, as we celebrate a momentous achievement: Our 200th Episode!

Join Christian and Jason as they dive deep into the past four years of our thought-provoking and inspiring podcast. Together, they remind us of the indispensable quality that every filmmaker must possess: tenacity. Prepare to be encouraged and motivated as they unveil the secrets to success in the ever-evolving world of cinema.

For a filmmaker, perseverance is the key that unlocks the gateway to the stars. These stars can take many forms, both figurative and literal, representing the pinnacle of our aspirations.

Just like steadfast guides, the stars watch over us, ever-present and within our grasp. They serve as a constant reminder that even though our goals may seem distant, they remain visible and within reach. With every courageous step we take towards our cinematic vision, we are bound to encounter challenges along the way. But fear not! These very adversities become the stepping stones that lead us towards the dazzling radiance of the stars we were destined to reach.

Get ready to be inspired as we continue to share the remarkable odyssey of filmmaking. We have an abundance of new, talented filmmakers waiting in the wings, eager to join us and delve into their unique processes and awe-inspiring experiences. It's a rollercoaster ride you won't want to miss!

And that's not all! Brace yourselves, because DocuView Déjà Vu is making a triumphant return! Get ready to rediscover your love for documentary films and relive those unforgettable cinematic moments.

So buckle up, dear listeners, as we embark on another thrilling chapter filled with passion, creativity, and the relentless pursuit of our cinematic dreams. Welcome to a podcast that will ignite your imagination and leave you craving more. Let's make magic happen together!

Summary

  • Intro to Documentary First. 0:00
  • Welcome back to Documentary First and inside look at a documentary filmmaker journey.
  • Episode 200.
  • How the podcast was born.
  • Being an improviser as a filmmaker. 6:01
  • Finding volunteers and flying people across the world.
  • Being an improviser, solving problems.
  • Journey from not finished movie to completed movie.
  • Heroes of Carentan.
  • How the film industry has changed. 10:59
  • How the world has changed since pre-Covid.
  • The challenges for independent filmmakers.
  • The art of turning adversity into advantage.
  • The difference between a filmmaker and everyone else.
  • The best piece of advice Jason has ever gotten.
  • Do the next thing first.
  • How did Jason become a voice actor? 17:28
  • Pursuing voice acting and animation.
  • How the pandemic changed the animation industry.
  • How Covid-19 has lowered the standards of what is acceptable.
  • Tiktok vs Instagram.
  • The problem with Social Media and content. 21:26
  • How people consume Tiktok and Instagram reels.
  • How film is designed to make you feel.
  • Making a deal with the devil.
  • Why independent filmmakers need to market their films.
  • The marketing strategy for "God's Not Dead".
  • Encounter with General JP McGee. 28:21
  • How Christian met General JP McGee, commanding general of the 101st Airborne Division.
  • Partnership with the 101st Airborne Division
  • Powerful interviews with the 101st Airborne Division.
  • The synergy of past and present coming through the interviews
  • The cost of combat.
  • Do not give up on your film. 34:11
  • Heart comes through in everything at Doc First.
  • Word of encouragement, don't quit.
  • DocuView Déjà Vu Segment
  • Book: The Obstacle is the Way
  • Coming soon to the podcast - New filmmakers in the wings!

DocuView Déjà Vu:

Jason - Still: A Michael J Fox Movie, 2023, Rated R, 95 mins on Apple+, IMDB Link: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt19853258/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0_tt_8_nm_0_q_still

Christian - The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck, Rated R, 2023, 97 mins, Rent or buy on Prime Video or inflight in United Airlines, IMDB Link: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt12380422/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_7_tt_8_nm_0_q_the%2520sublte

“A Man Called Otto” - 2022, 126 mins, PG13, in flight on United Airlines, IMDB Link:https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7405458/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0_tt_8_nm_0_q_a%2520man%2520called

]]>a19a233d-5bc3-4b72-a12e-c2ee40078635Wed, 05 Jul 2023 22:32:00 -050043:37falsefull200200After Cannes: Why Documentaries Are So Hard to Sell, Part 2After Cannes: Why Documentaries Are So Hard to Sell, Part 2What keeps a distributor going when 30 percent of the buyers he knows have lost their jobs?

Why are documentaries so hard to sell? Joe Amodei has asked himself that for years. In Part 2 of his report from the 2023 Cannes film market, he lays out what changed this year, what buyers wanted instead, and why, after analyzing it forever, he has landed on one theory.

In Episode 199, Christian sits down with distributor Joe Amodei of Virgil Films for the second half of his Cannes report, with co-host Jason Rugg listening in. Joe's first lesson is a light one: order the rosé, and don't order the steak. The rest are harder. With less licensing from streamers and premium cable, films go to rental and free streaming sites sooner, and that's opened the door to more Italian, Bollywood, German and French films. His competitors are also his friends, and this year their conversations were tough ones.

Then Christian asks the question she's been carrying: do you get depressed? Joe admits it's painful. But he goes back to why he does this in the first place. Christian says she does it because she can't not do it. Joe sets the 15th Ted Bundy series of the year next to a filmmaker getting on a plane with World War II veterans going to Normandy. You tell me the difference, he says. That's the power of really good documentaries. Christian adds that a charter flight taking 50 World War II veterans back to Normandy was inspired by her film. It's a conversation about choosing what you add to the world, even when the money isn't there.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • What changed at the film market in 2023
  • Why films go to rental and free streaming sites sooner
  • Why foreign-language films are getting a bigger chance
  • How distributors set up meetings at a film market
  • Why Joe is bewildered by two million dollar budgets
  • What Hollywood learned in the 1950s: only good movies worked
  • Which genres sell, and why chasing what's hot is risky
  • Joe's theory on why documentaries are so hard to sell
  • Why Christian and Joe keep making and releasing them anyway

CHAPTERS

0:00 Lessons From Cannes

4:54 Who Watches Foreign Films?

7:06 Booking Market Meetings

9:50 Budgets in Rough Times

13:00 True Crime, Horror, Faith

17:02 Hardest Genre to Sell

22:33 Ted Bundy or Normandy?

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Why are documentaries so hard to sell?

Joe Amodei of Virgil Films, who has released documentaries his whole career, told Documentary First in 2023 that they will always be one of the hardest genres to sell. His theory is that viewers are overwhelmed by news and want to escape, and most documentaries are not happy ending stories. He adds that festival buyers tend to choose the hardest stories, which turns some audiences off documentaries even more.

What film genres sell best?

Speaking after the 2023 Cannes market, Joe Amodei of Virgil Films said true crime still rules, horror has always been a mainstay but a lot of bad horror is being made, and faith-based films are hot. He put faith-based films next to horror, pointing to Jesus Revolution. He also named teen romantic dramas or comedies and Hallmark-style family films, and warned that what's hot today may not be hot when your film is done.

Are foreign-language films easier to sell now?

Joe Amodei of Virgil Films told Documentary First in 2023 that, with less licensing from streamers and premium cable, films go to rental, download and free ad-supported sites sooner. Because those platforms, and now Amazon and iTunes, are accepting more international films, he's more willing to walk into an Italian booth at a market than he was five or six years ago. The audience is growing, he says, though not yet where he'd like.

Why make documentaries if they don't make money?

On Documentary First in 2023, Joe Amodei of Virgil Films said you do this because you love it, and Christian Taylor added that she can't not do it. Joe compared the 15th docuseries on Ted Bundy, which reopens the pain of victims' families, with a filmmaker getting on a plane with World War II veterans going to Normandy. "That's the power of really good documentaries," he said.

Listen and Follow

https://pod.fo/e/4a8009

Support the show

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect

All social platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

About the Guest

Joe Amodei is the founder and CEO of Virgil Films and Entertainment. He has been going to film markets for 20 years, and has spent his career releasing documentaries, including Super Size Me, Restrepo, Forks Over Knives and I Am Chris Farley. Before Virgil, he was president of USA Home Entertainment.

Virgil Films | Instagram | X

About Virgil Films

Virgil Films and Entertainment is a traditional distribution company founded by Joe Amodei. It acquires the rights to documentaries and independent films and places them on digital platforms, TV, DVD, in theaters and with international buyers. Its releases include Super Size Me, Restrepo, Forks Over Knives and I Am Chris Farley, and it distributes Christian's film The Girl Who Wore Freedom. Full disclosure: Virgil Films distributes The Girl Who Wore Freedom and now sponsors Documentary First. This episode has no sponsor read.

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned


]]>What keeps a distributor going when 30 percent of the buyers he knows have lost their jobs?

Why are documentaries so hard to sell? Joe Amodei has asked himself that for years. In Part 2 of his report from the 2023 Cannes film market, he lays out what changed this year, what buyers wanted instead, and why, after analyzing it forever, he has landed on one theory.

In Episode 199, Christian sits down with distributor Joe Amodei of Virgil Films for the second half of his Cannes report, with co-host Jason Rugg listening in. Joe's first lesson is a light one: order the rosé, and don't order the steak. The rest are harder. With less licensing from streamers and premium cable, films go to rental and free streaming sites sooner, and that's opened the door to more Italian, Bollywood, German and French films. His competitors are also his friends, and this year their conversations were tough ones.

Then Christian asks the question she's been carrying: do you get depressed? Joe admits it's painful. But he goes back to why he does this in the first place. Christian says she does it because she can't not do it. Joe sets the 15th Ted Bundy series of the year next to a filmmaker getting on a plane with World War II veterans going to Normandy. You tell me the difference, he says. That's the power of really good documentaries. Christian adds that a charter flight taking 50 World War II veterans back to Normandy was inspired by her film. It's a conversation about choosing what you add to the world, even when the money isn't there.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • What changed at the film market in 2023
  • Why films go to rental and free streaming sites sooner
  • Why foreign-language films are getting a bigger chance
  • How distributors set up meetings at a film market
  • Why Joe is bewildered by two million dollar budgets
  • What Hollywood learned in the 1950s: only good movies worked
  • Which genres sell, and why chasing what's hot is risky
  • Joe's theory on why documentaries are so hard to sell
  • Why Christian and Joe keep making and releasing them anyway

CHAPTERS

0:00 Lessons From Cannes

4:54 Who Watches Foreign Films?

7:06 Booking Market Meetings

9:50 Budgets in Rough Times

13:00 True Crime, Horror, Faith

17:02 Hardest Genre to Sell

22:33 Ted Bundy or Normandy?

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Why are documentaries so hard to sell?

Joe Amodei of Virgil Films, who has released documentaries his whole career, told Documentary First in 2023 that they will always be one of the hardest genres to sell. His theory is that viewers are overwhelmed by news and want to escape, and most documentaries are not happy ending stories. He adds that festival buyers tend to choose the hardest stories, which turns some audiences off documentaries even more.

What film genres sell best?

Speaking after the 2023 Cannes market, Joe Amodei of Virgil Films said true crime still rules, horror has always been a mainstay but a lot of bad horror is being made, and faith-based films are hot. He put faith-based films next to horror, pointing to Jesus Revolution. He also named teen romantic dramas or comedies and Hallmark-style family films, and warned that what's hot today may not be hot when your film is done.

Are foreign-language films easier to sell now?

Joe Amodei of Virgil Films told Documentary First in 2023 that, with less licensing from streamers and premium cable, films go to rental, download and free ad-supported sites sooner. Because those platforms, and now Amazon and iTunes, are accepting more international films, he's more willing to walk into an Italian booth at a market than he was five or six years ago. The audience is growing, he says, though not yet where he'd like.

Why make documentaries if they don't make money?

On Documentary First in 2023, Joe Amodei of Virgil Films said you do this because you love it, and Christian Taylor added that she can't not do it. Joe compared the 15th docuseries on Ted Bundy, which reopens the pain of victims' families, with a filmmaker getting on a plane with World War II veterans going to Normandy. "That's the power of really good documentaries," he said.

Listen and Follow

https://pod.fo/e/4a8009

Support the show

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect

All social platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

About the Guest

Joe Amodei is the founder and CEO of Virgil Films and Entertainment. He has been going to film markets for 20 years, and has spent his career releasing documentaries, including Super Size Me, Restrepo, Forks Over Knives and I Am Chris Farley. Before Virgil, he was president of USA Home Entertainment.

Virgil Films | Instagram | X

About Virgil Films

Virgil Films and Entertainment is a traditional distribution company founded by Joe Amodei. It acquires the rights to documentaries and independent films and places them on digital platforms, TV, DVD, in theaters and with international buyers. Its releases include Super Size Me, Restrepo, Forks Over Knives and I Am Chris Farley, and it distributes Christian's film The Girl Who Wore Freedom. Full disclosure: Virgil Films distributes The Girl Who Wore Freedom and now sponsors Documentary First. This episode has no sponsor read.

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned


]]>5147f3d3-e012-40c7-a063-5e5a20296ae7Thu, 22 Jun 2023 03:56:00 -050028:26falsefull199199The Other Cannes: Where Films Get Sold, Part 1The Other Cannes: Where Films Get Sold, Part 1What happens when a film geek who started at a Philadelphia video store ends up walking the red carpet at Cannes?

The Cannes Film Festival is the one everyone pictures, with stars on the red carpet, but at the very same time, in the very same buildings, there's a second event most people never see: the Cannes film market. That's where distributors, sales agents and filmmakers from almost every country meet to buy and sell films. For a filmmaker who wants a film to earn its money back, Joe says, the market is the part that matters.

In Episode 198, Christian and host Jason Rugg sit down with distributor Joe Amodei of Virgil Films, back from Cannes. Joe has been in the business since the days of VHS. He went from the first video store in Philadelphia to president of USA Home Entertainment, where he worked with filmmakers like Robert Altman on Gosford Park. He tells how Altman once called him "the guy that's not the suit" on a board conference call, and how he picked up a real Oscar at the Governors Ball, thinking it was a table decoration.

Then he takes us to Cannes: the one night he walked the red carpet for a documentary about tsunami volunteers called The Third Wave, people in tuxedos and gowns holding signs that beg for a single ticket, and a convention floor divided into countries. For Christian, this conversation hits home. Her social media is full of photos of her on stage and holding awards, and she's grateful for the people she met at festivals. But she wants to become a filmmaker who actually makes a profit, and she starts to wonder if the money she spent on festival travel could have taken her film to a market instead.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How Robert Altman came to call Joe "not a suit"
  • The difference between the Cannes Film Festival and the Cannes film market
  • Why stars leave right after Cannes premieres, with no Q&As
  • How tickets work, and why people stand on the street holding signs for them
  • How a film market works, from country pavilions to hotel suites
  • How to get a market badge, and what it costs
  • What it costs to screen your film at the market, even as a rough cut
  • Why you need a company representing you when buyers walk out of a screening
  • Why Joe tells independent filmmakers to choose markets over festivals
  • Why every filmmaker should read the trades

CHAPTERS

0:00 Not a Suit

6:47 What Is Cannes?

9:23 Red Carpet Night

12:59 Stars, Signs, Tickets

18:06 Inside the Film Market

23:16 Badges and Meetings

25:43 Where to Sell It

34:24 Read Every Trade

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What is the difference between the Cannes Film Festival and the Cannes film market?

Joe Amodei of Virgil Films told Documentary First in 2023 that both run at the same time, in the same buildings. The festival is the red carpet event, with premieres, stars and photographers. The film market is like a convention, where companies from around the world set up booths and hotel suites to buy and sell films. For filmmakers, Joe says, the market is what matters, and it's why he goes every year.

How do you get a badge for the Cannes film market?

Joe Amodei of Virgil Films explained on Documentary First in 2023 that you register on the market's website and prove you're a filmmaker or a distributor, listing your credits and your website. They check you out, and if you're approved as a member of the industry, you can buy a pass. He believed it was about 350 euros, with early bird pricing. The bigger costs are airfare and a place to stay.

Should independent filmmakers go to film festivals or film markets?

Joe Amodei of Virgil Films told Documentary First in 2023 that if you're trying to sell your film and pay back investors, it's much more important to be part of the markets, like Berlin and Cannes, than to play festivals all over the country. Festivals are great for a standing ovation, he says, but at a market you meet people from all over the world who do what you do, all day long.

How much does it cost to screen a film at the Cannes film market?

In 2023, Joe Amodei of Virgil Films estimated it costs somewhere around 1,500 euros to have your film shown at the Cannes market, and about 2,000 euros to show it multiple times. Even a rough cut can work. But he says you need to be associated with a company, because when a buyer walks out of that theater, there has to be an established company to call, not an individual.

Listen and Follow

https://pod.fo/e/4a800a

Support the show

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect

All social platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

About the Guest

Joe Amodei is the founder and CEO of Virgil Films and Entertainment. He started at the first video store in Philadelphia, worked his way through several studios as a distribution sales rep, and became president of USA Home Entertainment, which released films like Traffic, Being John Malkovich and Gosford Park. At Virgil, he has released documentaries including Super Size Me, Restrepo, Forks Over Knives and I Am Chris Farley.

Virgil Films | Instagram | X

About Virgil Films

Virgil Films and Entertainment is a traditional distribution company founded by Joe Amodei. It acquires the rights to documentaries and independent films and places them on digital platforms, TV, DVD, in theaters and with international buyers. Its releases include Super Size Me, Restrepo, Forks Over Knives and I Am Chris Farley, and it distributes Christian's film The Girl Who Wore Freedom. Full disclosure: Virgil Films distributes The Girl Who Wore Freedom and now sponsors Documentary First. This episode has no sponsor read.

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned


]]>What happens when a film geek who started at a Philadelphia video store ends up walking the red carpet at Cannes?

The Cannes Film Festival is the one everyone pictures, with stars on the red carpet, but at the very same time, in the very same buildings, there's a second event most people never see: the Cannes film market. That's where distributors, sales agents and filmmakers from almost every country meet to buy and sell films. For a filmmaker who wants a film to earn its money back, Joe says, the market is the part that matters.

In Episode 198, Christian and host Jason Rugg sit down with distributor Joe Amodei of Virgil Films, back from Cannes. Joe has been in the business since the days of VHS. He went from the first video store in Philadelphia to president of USA Home Entertainment, where he worked with filmmakers like Robert Altman on Gosford Park. He tells how Altman once called him "the guy that's not the suit" on a board conference call, and how he picked up a real Oscar at the Governors Ball, thinking it was a table decoration.

Then he takes us to Cannes: the one night he walked the red carpet for a documentary about tsunami volunteers called The Third Wave, people in tuxedos and gowns holding signs that beg for a single ticket, and a convention floor divided into countries. For Christian, this conversation hits home. Her social media is full of photos of her on stage and holding awards, and she's grateful for the people she met at festivals. But she wants to become a filmmaker who actually makes a profit, and she starts to wonder if the money she spent on festival travel could have taken her film to a market instead.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How Robert Altman came to call Joe "not a suit"
  • The difference between the Cannes Film Festival and the Cannes film market
  • Why stars leave right after Cannes premieres, with no Q&As
  • How tickets work, and why people stand on the street holding signs for them
  • How a film market works, from country pavilions to hotel suites
  • How to get a market badge, and what it costs
  • What it costs to screen your film at the market, even as a rough cut
  • Why you need a company representing you when buyers walk out of a screening
  • Why Joe tells independent filmmakers to choose markets over festivals
  • Why every filmmaker should read the trades

CHAPTERS

0:00 Not a Suit

6:47 What Is Cannes?

9:23 Red Carpet Night

12:59 Stars, Signs, Tickets

18:06 Inside the Film Market

23:16 Badges and Meetings

25:43 Where to Sell It

34:24 Read Every Trade

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What is the difference between the Cannes Film Festival and the Cannes film market?

Joe Amodei of Virgil Films told Documentary First in 2023 that both run at the same time, in the same buildings. The festival is the red carpet event, with premieres, stars and photographers. The film market is like a convention, where companies from around the world set up booths and hotel suites to buy and sell films. For filmmakers, Joe says, the market is what matters, and it's why he goes every year.

How do you get a badge for the Cannes film market?

Joe Amodei of Virgil Films explained on Documentary First in 2023 that you register on the market's website and prove you're a filmmaker or a distributor, listing your credits and your website. They check you out, and if you're approved as a member of the industry, you can buy a pass. He believed it was about 350 euros, with early bird pricing. The bigger costs are airfare and a place to stay.

Should independent filmmakers go to film festivals or film markets?

Joe Amodei of Virgil Films told Documentary First in 2023 that if you're trying to sell your film and pay back investors, it's much more important to be part of the markets, like Berlin and Cannes, than to play festivals all over the country. Festivals are great for a standing ovation, he says, but at a market you meet people from all over the world who do what you do, all day long.

How much does it cost to screen a film at the Cannes film market?

In 2023, Joe Amodei of Virgil Films estimated it costs somewhere around 1,500 euros to have your film shown at the Cannes market, and about 2,000 euros to show it multiple times. Even a rough cut can work. But he says you need to be associated with a company, because when a buyer walks out of that theater, there has to be an established company to call, not an individual.

Listen and Follow

https://pod.fo/e/4a800a

Support the show

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect

All social platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

About the Guest

Joe Amodei is the founder and CEO of Virgil Films and Entertainment. He started at the first video store in Philadelphia, worked his way through several studios as a distribution sales rep, and became president of USA Home Entertainment, which released films like Traffic, Being John Malkovich and Gosford Park. At Virgil, he has released documentaries including Super Size Me, Restrepo, Forks Over Knives and I Am Chris Farley.

Virgil Films | Instagram | X

About Virgil Films

Virgil Films and Entertainment is a traditional distribution company founded by Joe Amodei. It acquires the rights to documentaries and independent films and places them on digital platforms, TV, DVD, in theaters and with international buyers. Its releases include Super Size Me, Restrepo, Forks Over Knives and I Am Chris Farley, and it distributes Christian's film The Girl Who Wore Freedom. Full disclosure: Virgil Films distributes The Girl Who Wore Freedom and now sponsors Documentary First. This episode has no sponsor read.

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned


]]>3f840658-81f5-466f-a053-41081754f45dFri, 09 Jun 2023 08:34:00 -050037:36falsefull198198Episode 197 | Sound Design and AI w/ Sound Designer of Citizen Sleuth - Part 2Episode 197: Sound Design and AI w/ Sound Designer of Citizen Sleuth - Part 2We're picking up right where we left off from the last episode, talking about AI and how it relates to sound design with Nathan Ruyle. Nathan Ruyle - IMDb

Nathans Company “This Is Sound Design” website: This is Sound Design

00:12 - Right out the gate Christian, Jason and Nathan discuss AI vs. good live sound recordings. We discuss that “the tools are only as good as the material you're feeding it.” There is no way around in achieving greatness unless you are investing in quality material.

03:30 - The AI discussion leads to asking about location sound and its challenges. Location sound is very different from sound design and final mix. Hear how Nathan unpacks these differences in reference to his movie “Citizen Sleuth”.

04:29 - Nathan shares how he used spectral tools to identify sounds in his documentary; yet due to use of camera audio and limited crew, there were still challenges in parsing them out. Even big budget films face audio challenges, which further highlights the nature of the industry.

07:42 - Nathan discusses how narrative and documentary filmmaking informs each other. In both narrative and documentary films, the use of Foley is essential to capturing the complete soundscape. Even with high-quality sound recording, certain details like footsteps or subtle moments may be missed. Therefore, techniques like Foley are crucial in both types of films to enhance the overall experience.

09:36 - Christian points out there is a difference between Foley and sound effects.

12:28 - History of Jack Foley & Foley experiences

16:32 - The legalities and clearance for the music

18:16 - Foley and music for the HBO Documentary called “United Skates”.

22:52 - Christian explains some terms, such as what are “stems”?

24:07 - Christian asks on behalf of new filmmakers who are still working in lower budget independent films. Do they have any ability to hire Nathan and his team at all? She asks him to give some sort of budget spectrum that they work on for all kinds of different films? And what does the look like in terms of rates.

Nathan gives an overview of what his team can provide. They have an ultra low budget rate sheet, where it kind of breaks down three budget options in great detail where you can see all the different parts of the process.

27:08 - Nathan’s company “This Is Sound Design” recently released “Joyland”.

IMDB: Joyland (2022) - IMDb

If you're in LA or want to come to LA and need help for a movie, they would be more than happy to have you visit for a tour.

31:04 - DocuView Déjà Vu

Jason: “Citizen Sleuth” (2023), 23 mins, IMDB: Citizen Sleuth (2023) - IMDb

Currently in the film festival run, check out the Instagram for film festival details. Keep an eye on Nathan's website for an announcement as to when its going to be released to see for the public. https://www.instagram.com/citizensleuthmovie/

Christian: “King of Kings: Chasing Edward Jones” (2022), 99 mins, IMDB: King of Kings: Chasing Edward Jones (2022) - IMDb

This movie too, is in its festival run; so it can't be watched, save for at film festivals.

Nathan: “United Skates” (2018), 89 mins, IMDB (Available on HBO Max): United Skates (2018) - IMDb

]]>We're picking up right where we left off from the last episode, talking about AI and how it relates to sound design with Nathan Ruyle. Nathan Ruyle - IMDb

Nathans Company “This Is Sound Design” website: This is Sound Design

00:12 - Right out the gate Christian, Jason and Nathan discuss AI vs. good live sound recordings. We discuss that “the tools are only as good as the material you're feeding it.” There is no way around in achieving greatness unless you are investing in quality material.

03:30 - The AI discussion leads to asking about location sound and its challenges. Location sound is very different from sound design and final mix. Hear how Nathan unpacks these differences in reference to his movie “Citizen Sleuth”.

04:29 - Nathan shares how he used spectral tools to identify sounds in his documentary; yet due to use of camera audio and limited crew, there were still challenges in parsing them out. Even big budget films face audio challenges, which further highlights the nature of the industry.

07:42 - Nathan discusses how narrative and documentary filmmaking informs each other. In both narrative and documentary films, the use of Foley is essential to capturing the complete soundscape. Even with high-quality sound recording, certain details like footsteps or subtle moments may be missed. Therefore, techniques like Foley are crucial in both types of films to enhance the overall experience.

09:36 - Christian points out there is a difference between Foley and sound effects.

12:28 - History of Jack Foley & Foley experiences

16:32 - The legalities and clearance for the music

18:16 - Foley and music for the HBO Documentary called “United Skates”.

22:52 - Christian explains some terms, such as what are “stems”?

24:07 - Christian asks on behalf of new filmmakers who are still working in lower budget independent films. Do they have any ability to hire Nathan and his team at all? She asks him to give some sort of budget spectrum that they work on for all kinds of different films? And what does the look like in terms of rates.

Nathan gives an overview of what his team can provide. They have an ultra low budget rate sheet, where it kind of breaks down three budget options in great detail where you can see all the different parts of the process.

27:08 - Nathan’s company “This Is Sound Design” recently released “Joyland”.

IMDB: Joyland (2022) - IMDb

If you're in LA or want to come to LA and need help for a movie, they would be more than happy to have you visit for a tour.

31:04 - DocuView Déjà Vu

Jason: “Citizen Sleuth” (2023), 23 mins, IMDB: Citizen Sleuth (2023) - IMDb

Currently in the film festival run, check out the Instagram for film festival details. Keep an eye on Nathan's website for an announcement as to when its going to be released to see for the public. https://www.instagram.com/citizensleuthmovie/

Christian: “King of Kings: Chasing Edward Jones” (2022), 99 mins, IMDB: King of Kings: Chasing Edward Jones (2022) - IMDb

This movie too, is in its festival run; so it can't be watched, save for at film festivals.

Nathan: “United Skates” (2018), 89 mins, IMDB (Available on HBO Max): United Skates (2018) - IMDb

]]>48e2280f-b1d6-4b0f-a7a5-a0616fafb7fcFri, 26 May 2023 17:56:00 -050036:23falsefull197197Episode 196 | Sound Design of SXSW True Crime Documentary, Citizen Sleuth, w/ Nathan Ruyle - Part 1Episode 196 | Sound Design of SXSW True Crime Documentary, Citizen Sleuth, w/ Nathan Ruyle - Part 1Get ready for an engaging episode of the podcast, where Christian and Jason chat with Nathan Ruyle, the sound designer behind the hit film "Citizen Sleuth." With over 100+ credits to his name, Nathan has an impressive BIO and a wealth of knowledge when it comes to sound design. In part one of this deep dive, Nathan discusses his creative approach to sound design and how it helped to bring the mystery of the film to life.

Nathan Ruyle - IMDb

Nathans Company “This Is Sound Design” website:

This is Sound Design

At 01:53, Nathan sums up the unique sound design in "Citizen Sleuth" and how it was used to create an experiential feeling for the audience. Without relying on reenactments, Nathan used sound to immerse the audience in the experience of the crime, making them feel as though they were right there at the scene.

‌

Christian shares at 05:17 how she realized the importance of communicating emotions to the composer and sound department to ensure that the audience is moved through the story by the driving forces of sound and music. Nathan's approach to sound design is from a creative perspective, and he sees it as an opportunity to problem-solve and use his imagination.

‌

At 08:13, Nathan explains how his work encompasses all facets of post-production sound and how he and his team designed the sound to match the look and feel of the story. Christian asks Nathan to sum up the sound of the film and Nathan gives a captivating answer that will leave you intrigued.

‌

At 14:29, Christian picks out two examples from the film to discuss how Nathan and his team handled the sound in those moments. Nathan also explains mediated voices and mediated technology.

‌

At 15:42 and how it adds character and feeling to the story. Jason was curious about how Nathan made the dialogue consistent, even when recorded in different locations, and Nathan explains his technique in detail at 23:35.

‌

As this episode went a little long, Christian, Jason, and Nathan decided to split it into two parts. Be sure to tune in to part two to hear more about AI-specific tools and other interesting sound design topics. And don't forget to catch the next episode, where DocuView Déjà Vu takes center stage!

]]>Get ready for an engaging episode of the podcast, where Christian and Jason chat with Nathan Ruyle, the sound designer behind the hit film "Citizen Sleuth." With over 100+ credits to his name, Nathan has an impressive BIO and a wealth of knowledge when it comes to sound design. In part one of this deep dive, Nathan discusses his creative approach to sound design and how it helped to bring the mystery of the film to life.

Nathan Ruyle - IMDb

Nathans Company “This Is Sound Design” website:

This is Sound Design

At 01:53, Nathan sums up the unique sound design in "Citizen Sleuth" and how it was used to create an experiential feeling for the audience. Without relying on reenactments, Nathan used sound to immerse the audience in the experience of the crime, making them feel as though they were right there at the scene.

‌

Christian shares at 05:17 how she realized the importance of communicating emotions to the composer and sound department to ensure that the audience is moved through the story by the driving forces of sound and music. Nathan's approach to sound design is from a creative perspective, and he sees it as an opportunity to problem-solve and use his imagination.

‌

At 08:13, Nathan explains how his work encompasses all facets of post-production sound and how he and his team designed the sound to match the look and feel of the story. Christian asks Nathan to sum up the sound of the film and Nathan gives a captivating answer that will leave you intrigued.

‌

At 14:29, Christian picks out two examples from the film to discuss how Nathan and his team handled the sound in those moments. Nathan also explains mediated voices and mediated technology.

‌

At 15:42 and how it adds character and feeling to the story. Jason was curious about how Nathan made the dialogue consistent, even when recorded in different locations, and Nathan explains his technique in detail at 23:35.

‌

As this episode went a little long, Christian, Jason, and Nathan decided to split it into two parts. Be sure to tune in to part two to hear more about AI-specific tools and other interesting sound design topics. And don't forget to catch the next episode, where DocuView Déjà Vu takes center stage!

]]>c1eec7d1-44e2-47ee-adbc-9b8cf4714e78Thu, 11 May 2023 09:08:00 -050033:37falsefull196196Episode 195 | 3 Tools of Filmmaking w/ Award-Winning Director D. MitryEpisode 195 | 3 Tools of Filmmaking w/ Award-Winning Director D. MitryStep right up, folks! This week on Documentary First, we're shaking things up and diving into the world of narrative filmmaking. Our special guest is none other than D. Mitry, a talented writer, director, and producer whose short films have won international acclaim. D. Mitry's new film, “Hedgehog”, is taking the festival circuit by storm, and he's here to share his top three tools for any filmmaker looking to create a powerful, impactful story.

But first, let's talk about D. Mitry's fascinating backstory. Born in the Soviet Union, D. Mitry didn't launch his filmmaking dream until 2015, but since then, his work has made waves across the globe. He's the mastermind behind “My True Fairytale”, a feature film that pays tribute to his daughter Alyssa after her tragic passing. This deeply personal project was acquired for worldwide distribution by Gravitas Ventures and had its world premiere at Cinequest in March 2021.

Now D. Mitry has a new film on the horizon: “Hedgehog”. This short film explores the conflict between Ukrainian and Russian forces through the eyes of a young girl and a wounded soldier. D. Mitry discusses the challenges of telling a powerful story with minimal words and allowing images and stillness to speak for themselves. He emphasizes the importance of building a strong "movie family" of passionate collaborators who share a love for the project.

And what about those top three tools for filmmakers? D. Mitry's first tool is "Economy of Writing," which means using every element of your story to its fullest potential to avoid overwriting. This is especially important for indie filmmakers who must be resourceful and conscientious about their budget. His second tool describes "movie family" as a group of collaborators who share a love for the project and thus can weather any challenges that come their way. Finally, D. Mitry stresses the importance of choosing a story that speaks to one on a personal level and has the power to make an impact in the world.

So buckle up, folks, and get ready for a thrilling ride through the world of narrative filmmaking with D. Mitry on Documentary First!

Social Media Links for The Hedgehog Film

Website: https://www.thehedgehogfilm.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thehedgehogfilm/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheHedgehogFilm

** DocuView Déjà Vu:

Dmitry: “Reggie's Forest” & “The Girl Who Wore Freedom”

Reggie’s Forest IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt14014074/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

The Girl Who Wore Freedom: https://thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/

Jason: The Prestige TV Podcast - Episodes discussing Season 4 of “Barry” on HBO - Discussions with the director and actor.

Link: https://open.spotify.com/episode/7ggiKF2wHHPcbyRAYbJO4o?si=94f568975f2d4571

Christian: "Eyewitness: D-Day", 2019, 44 mins

IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10885884/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

Quick Company Update:

On May 19, 2023, the Doc First team will be attending the 80th Anniversary Ball for the 101st Airborne Division at the Opryland Hotel in Nashville, TN which is open to anyone in the community (Tickets for “Community Invitees” are $105). The next day, May 20th, there will be a screening of "The Girl Who Wore Freedom" at the 101st Airborne home in Fort Campbell, Kentucky (Follow our socials for more details). Christian will be attending both events and then heading to Normandy for D-Day with World War II veterans on a Delta charter flight. Thanks to a wonderful partner at the 101st ABD (Air Assault), we are collaborating with the division on Instagram, as they share our micro-docs to raise awareness and build our audience. We encourage you to follow our journey on Instagram (@documentaryfirst), Facebook (Documentary First), Twitter (@doc_first), and TikTok (@documentaryfirst).

00:00 - 02:52 - Introduction

02:52 - D. Mitry’s Bio

03:34 - The Hedgehog Film Synopsis

04:34 - Christian & Jason share their experience of viewing Hedgehog.

13:30 - Toolkit item number 3 - Story (Part 1)

14:25 - Toolkit item number 1 - Economic Writing

24:21 - Toolkit time number 2 - A Movie Family

34:35 - Toolkit time number 3 - Story (part 2)

36:32 - Jason asks about D. Mitry’s vision and what actually made it to the screen

39:05 - Christian shares what she thinks is D. Mitry’s best tool.

39:50 - The film festival run for The Hedgehog Film

42:21 - Praise and thanks for family, cast & crew - it takes “a movie family”

45:37 - DocuView Déjà Vu

51:32 - A quick update

]]>Step right up, folks! This week on Documentary First, we're shaking things up and diving into the world of narrative filmmaking. Our special guest is none other than D. Mitry, a talented writer, director, and producer whose short films have won international acclaim. D. Mitry's new film, “Hedgehog”, is taking the festival circuit by storm, and he's here to share his top three tools for any filmmaker looking to create a powerful, impactful story.

But first, let's talk about D. Mitry's fascinating backstory. Born in the Soviet Union, D. Mitry didn't launch his filmmaking dream until 2015, but since then, his work has made waves across the globe. He's the mastermind behind “My True Fairytale”, a feature film that pays tribute to his daughter Alyssa after her tragic passing. This deeply personal project was acquired for worldwide distribution by Gravitas Ventures and had its world premiere at Cinequest in March 2021.

Now D. Mitry has a new film on the horizon: “Hedgehog”. This short film explores the conflict between Ukrainian and Russian forces through the eyes of a young girl and a wounded soldier. D. Mitry discusses the challenges of telling a powerful story with minimal words and allowing images and stillness to speak for themselves. He emphasizes the importance of building a strong "movie family" of passionate collaborators who share a love for the project.

And what about those top three tools for filmmakers? D. Mitry's first tool is "Economy of Writing," which means using every element of your story to its fullest potential to avoid overwriting. This is especially important for indie filmmakers who must be resourceful and conscientious about their budget. His second tool describes "movie family" as a group of collaborators who share a love for the project and thus can weather any challenges that come their way. Finally, D. Mitry stresses the importance of choosing a story that speaks to one on a personal level and has the power to make an impact in the world.

So buckle up, folks, and get ready for a thrilling ride through the world of narrative filmmaking with D. Mitry on Documentary First!

Social Media Links for The Hedgehog Film

Website: https://www.thehedgehogfilm.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thehedgehogfilm/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheHedgehogFilm

** DocuView Déjà Vu:

Dmitry: “Reggie's Forest” & “The Girl Who Wore Freedom”

Reggie’s Forest IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt14014074/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

The Girl Who Wore Freedom: https://thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/

Jason: The Prestige TV Podcast - Episodes discussing Season 4 of “Barry” on HBO - Discussions with the director and actor.

Link: https://open.spotify.com/episode/7ggiKF2wHHPcbyRAYbJO4o?si=94f568975f2d4571

Christian: "Eyewitness: D-Day", 2019, 44 mins

IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10885884/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

Quick Company Update:

On May 19, 2023, the Doc First team will be attending the 80th Anniversary Ball for the 101st Airborne Division at the Opryland Hotel in Nashville, TN which is open to anyone in the community (Tickets for “Community Invitees” are $105). The next day, May 20th, there will be a screening of "The Girl Who Wore Freedom" at the 101st Airborne home in Fort Campbell, Kentucky (Follow our socials for more details). Christian will be attending both events and then heading to Normandy for D-Day with World War II veterans on a Delta charter flight. Thanks to a wonderful partner at the 101st ABD (Air Assault), we are collaborating with the division on Instagram, as they share our micro-docs to raise awareness and build our audience. We encourage you to follow our journey on Instagram (@documentaryfirst), Facebook (Documentary First), Twitter (@doc_first), and TikTok (@documentaryfirst).

00:00 - 02:52 - Introduction

02:52 - D. Mitry’s Bio

03:34 - The Hedgehog Film Synopsis

04:34 - Christian & Jason share their experience of viewing Hedgehog.

13:30 - Toolkit item number 3 - Story (Part 1)

14:25 - Toolkit item number 1 - Economic Writing

24:21 - Toolkit time number 2 - A Movie Family

34:35 - Toolkit time number 3 - Story (part 2)

36:32 - Jason asks about D. Mitry’s vision and what actually made it to the screen

39:05 - Christian shares what she thinks is D. Mitry’s best tool.

39:50 - The film festival run for The Hedgehog Film

42:21 - Praise and thanks for family, cast & crew - it takes “a movie family”

45:37 - DocuView Déjà Vu

51:32 - A quick update

]]>42b432a9-1745-415f-8850-7dee0c83c0f3Thu, 27 Apr 2023 06:28:00 -050055:04falsefull1951955 Film Business Tips From a Distributor Who Doubted Netflix5 Film Business Tips From a Distributor Who Doubted NetflixWhat do you wish someone had told you before you made your first film?

Joe Amodei has watched movies go from $60 rental tapes to streaming, and he has five film business tips for anyone making a documentary. The first one changes how you see the whole project: making your film is only half the miracle. The other half is getting people to see it.

In Episode 194, Christian Taylor sits down with Joe Amodei, founder of Virgil Films and Entertainment, with Jason Rugg hosting. Joe starts with history, because he's a film historian at heart: the days when a tape cost a video store $60, the Paramount test that sold Raiders of the Lost Ark for $19.99, and the meeting in Dallas that, as people who were there told him, made Netflix decide to take Blockbuster down. He admits he told Netflix it was out of its mind about streaming. Then he explains how the streaming boom of huge budgets and original films ran into a wall, and why independent films are the ones hurting.

From there it's the five tips, and Christian brings her own experience to each one. Know the business and read the trades every day. Watch films of every era and learn from the masters, who went through the same aggravation you're going through. Learn film marketing in a world with almost no newspaper reviews, where a $20,000 publicist may not pay off. Christian shares what happened when she spent about $200 boosting Instagram reels, and what happened when the 101st Airborne Division collaborated on one post instead. Decide your objective before you start. And treat your film as a business, which includes a realistic budget and some pay for yourself. Christian admits she hasn't paid herself in five years of making her film.

Full disclosure: Virgil Films distributes The Girl Who Wore Freedom, and it now sponsors Documentary First. This 2023 episode has no sponsor read.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How Netflix beat Blockbuster, as Joe tells it
  • Why streaming budgets boomed and then hit a wall
  • Why making your film is only half the miracle
  • Why someone on your team should research your audience while you shoot
  • Which trade publications to read every day
  • Why a $20,000 publicist may not pay off for a direct-to-digital film
  • Why one collaboration beat paid Instagram boosts
  • What a distribution service deal is and who it's for
  • What a documentary budget should be, and why you should pay yourself

CHAPTERS

0:00 Twenty Years, Every Format

7:35 Raiders for $19.99

10:59 How Netflix Beat Blockbuster

14:10 Streaming's Boom and Bust

20:56 Half the Miracle

30:27 Which Trades to Read?

33:10 Learn From Hitchcock

35:24 Marketing Without Newspapers

42:08 Why Are You Making It?

44:48 Open a Business

47:09 What Should Docs Cost?

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What should filmmakers know about the film business?

On Documentary First in 2023, distributor Joe Amodei of Virgil Films and host Christian Taylor walked through five points. Know the business and read the trades. Watch movies of every kind and learn from the masters. Learn film marketing, because newspapers no longer review most films. Decide your objective before you start. And treat your film as a business, with its own bank account, accountant and lawyer.

What trade publications should filmmakers read?

Joe Amodei told Documentary First in 2023 to start with Deadline, Variety and The Hollywood Reporter, read online every day. He adds Screen Daily, which is UK-based and more European, and TheWrap. Christian Taylor adds Realscreen, whose emails she gets for free, and says the top three or four are worth paying for and belong in a filmmaker's budget.

What is a distribution service deal?

Joe Amodei explained on Documentary First in 2023 that some filmmakers mainly want their film available, often after every distributor has passed. In a service deal, the filmmaker pays Virgil Films a fee and Virgil guarantees the film goes up on major transactional sites like iTunes and Amazon. Being able to tell investors the film is out makes the next film easier to fund, even if this one loses money.

How much should an independent documentary cost?

Speaking in 2023, Joe Amodei said he would not go much past $200,000, $250,000 tops, for an independent documentary, because there were very few places left to sell it, and the answer could change within months. The budget should also hold some pay for the filmmaker, even $5,000 or $10,000, so you haven't worked for nothing. He and Christian agreed that a big chunk has to be saved for marketing.

DocuView Deja View Picks

Joe: Fire of Love

Christian: Sr.

Listen and Follow

https://pod.fo/e/4a800e

Support the show

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect

All social platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

About the Guest

Joe Amodei founded Virgil Films and Entertainment and has worked in film since the first video store opened in Philadelphia. He watches a movie a day, sometimes two, and calls himself a film historian. Follow Virgil on Instagram and X, and see Joe's own documentary at coldwarinphilly.com.

About Virgil Films

Virgil Films and Entertainment acquires and distributes documentaries, feature films and series. Its releases include Super Size Me, the Oscar-nominated Restrepo, Forks Over Knives, Glen Campbell: I'll Be Me, We Are Columbine and I Am Chris Farley. virgilfilms.com

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned


]]>What do you wish someone had told you before you made your first film?

Joe Amodei has watched movies go from $60 rental tapes to streaming, and he has five film business tips for anyone making a documentary. The first one changes how you see the whole project: making your film is only half the miracle. The other half is getting people to see it.

In Episode 194, Christian Taylor sits down with Joe Amodei, founder of Virgil Films and Entertainment, with Jason Rugg hosting. Joe starts with history, because he's a film historian at heart: the days when a tape cost a video store $60, the Paramount test that sold Raiders of the Lost Ark for $19.99, and the meeting in Dallas that, as people who were there told him, made Netflix decide to take Blockbuster down. He admits he told Netflix it was out of its mind about streaming. Then he explains how the streaming boom of huge budgets and original films ran into a wall, and why independent films are the ones hurting.

From there it's the five tips, and Christian brings her own experience to each one. Know the business and read the trades every day. Watch films of every era and learn from the masters, who went through the same aggravation you're going through. Learn film marketing in a world with almost no newspaper reviews, where a $20,000 publicist may not pay off. Christian shares what happened when she spent about $200 boosting Instagram reels, and what happened when the 101st Airborne Division collaborated on one post instead. Decide your objective before you start. And treat your film as a business, which includes a realistic budget and some pay for yourself. Christian admits she hasn't paid herself in five years of making her film.

Full disclosure: Virgil Films distributes The Girl Who Wore Freedom, and it now sponsors Documentary First. This 2023 episode has no sponsor read.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How Netflix beat Blockbuster, as Joe tells it
  • Why streaming budgets boomed and then hit a wall
  • Why making your film is only half the miracle
  • Why someone on your team should research your audience while you shoot
  • Which trade publications to read every day
  • Why a $20,000 publicist may not pay off for a direct-to-digital film
  • Why one collaboration beat paid Instagram boosts
  • What a distribution service deal is and who it's for
  • What a documentary budget should be, and why you should pay yourself

CHAPTERS

0:00 Twenty Years, Every Format

7:35 Raiders for $19.99

10:59 How Netflix Beat Blockbuster

14:10 Streaming's Boom and Bust

20:56 Half the Miracle

30:27 Which Trades to Read?

33:10 Learn From Hitchcock

35:24 Marketing Without Newspapers

42:08 Why Are You Making It?

44:48 Open a Business

47:09 What Should Docs Cost?

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What should filmmakers know about the film business?

On Documentary First in 2023, distributor Joe Amodei of Virgil Films and host Christian Taylor walked through five points. Know the business and read the trades. Watch movies of every kind and learn from the masters. Learn film marketing, because newspapers no longer review most films. Decide your objective before you start. And treat your film as a business, with its own bank account, accountant and lawyer.

What trade publications should filmmakers read?

Joe Amodei told Documentary First in 2023 to start with Deadline, Variety and The Hollywood Reporter, read online every day. He adds Screen Daily, which is UK-based and more European, and TheWrap. Christian Taylor adds Realscreen, whose emails she gets for free, and says the top three or four are worth paying for and belong in a filmmaker's budget.

What is a distribution service deal?

Joe Amodei explained on Documentary First in 2023 that some filmmakers mainly want their film available, often after every distributor has passed. In a service deal, the filmmaker pays Virgil Films a fee and Virgil guarantees the film goes up on major transactional sites like iTunes and Amazon. Being able to tell investors the film is out makes the next film easier to fund, even if this one loses money.

How much should an independent documentary cost?

Speaking in 2023, Joe Amodei said he would not go much past $200,000, $250,000 tops, for an independent documentary, because there were very few places left to sell it, and the answer could change within months. The budget should also hold some pay for the filmmaker, even $5,000 or $10,000, so you haven't worked for nothing. He and Christian agreed that a big chunk has to be saved for marketing.

DocuView Deja View Picks

Joe: Fire of Love

Christian: Sr.

Listen and Follow

https://pod.fo/e/4a800e

Support the show

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect

All social platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

About the Guest

Joe Amodei founded Virgil Films and Entertainment and has worked in film since the first video store opened in Philadelphia. He watches a movie a day, sometimes two, and calls himself a film historian. Follow Virgil on Instagram and X, and see Joe's own documentary at coldwarinphilly.com.

About Virgil Films

Virgil Films and Entertainment acquires and distributes documentaries, feature films and series. Its releases include Super Size Me, the Oscar-nominated Restrepo, Forks Over Knives, Glen Campbell: I'll Be Me, We Are Columbine and I Am Chris Farley. virgilfilms.com

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned


]]>1a50ba19-0475-430f-9115-8fbdbaa07f15Wed, 12 Apr 2023 20:50:00 -050052:50falsefull194194Episode 193 | Animation in Documentary Filmmaking - A Partnership Re-emergingEpisode 193 | Animation in Documentary Filmmaking - A Partnership Re-emergingIn this episode Jason Rugg, our loyal host and trusty dusty button pushing guy, is our guest guru on animation and how animation in documentary filmmaking is making a resurgence.

With Jason’s extensive background in animation, Christian questions Jason about how animation works and they discuss the history, as well as the pros and cons of using animation in documentary storytelling.

Referencing this article, Christian and Jason unpack how the animation revival mentioned is still relevant in today’s filmmaking. Additionally, they dive into the various aspects of animation and motion graphics within storytelling and film making with these various examples:

The Sinking of the “Lusitania”

“Ryan” a short by Chris Landreth (2004)

They also discuss costs of animation referencing these films:

“A Head Shorter” by Sasha Bortnik

“An Inconvenient Time" - The Story of Ruth Ravina

“Chicago 10“ by Brett Morgen

DocuView Déjà Vu:

Jason: “Ryan” a short by Chris Landreth (2004) IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0414469/?ref_=fn_al_tt_12

Christian: "MH370: The Plane that Disappeared", Series, 2023, IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt26739535/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

Timecodes:

02:20 - Jason Rugg’s Bio

04:19 - Motion Graphics vs Animation

06:00 - Motion Capture vs Live Animation

10:20 - Math & Animation

12:55 - The rebirth/resurgence of animation in documentary film making with examples

23:00 - The cost of animation, examples and styles such as “parallaxing”

30:57 - Striking the right balance between animation and story asking questions like do you have an art director or an illustrator?

40:06 - Advice from Jason about where to start with animation if you are interested in using this medium in your storytelling, including finding the right style of animation to compliment your story

45:43 - DocuView Déjà Vu

47:46 - Update & Wrap up

]]>In this episode Jason Rugg, our loyal host and trusty dusty button pushing guy, is our guest guru on animation and how animation in documentary filmmaking is making a resurgence.

With Jason’s extensive background in animation, Christian questions Jason about how animation works and they discuss the history, as well as the pros and cons of using animation in documentary storytelling.

Referencing this article, Christian and Jason unpack how the animation revival mentioned is still relevant in today’s filmmaking. Additionally, they dive into the various aspects of animation and motion graphics within storytelling and film making with these various examples:

The Sinking of the “Lusitania”

“Ryan” a short by Chris Landreth (2004)

They also discuss costs of animation referencing these films:

“A Head Shorter” by Sasha Bortnik

“An Inconvenient Time" - The Story of Ruth Ravina

“Chicago 10“ by Brett Morgen

DocuView Déjà Vu:

Jason: “Ryan” a short by Chris Landreth (2004) IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0414469/?ref_=fn_al_tt_12

Christian: "MH370: The Plane that Disappeared", Series, 2023, IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt26739535/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

Timecodes:

02:20 - Jason Rugg’s Bio

04:19 - Motion Graphics vs Animation

06:00 - Motion Capture vs Live Animation

10:20 - Math & Animation

12:55 - The rebirth/resurgence of animation in documentary film making with examples

23:00 - The cost of animation, examples and styles such as “parallaxing”

30:57 - Striking the right balance between animation and story asking questions like do you have an art director or an illustrator?

40:06 - Advice from Jason about where to start with animation if you are interested in using this medium in your storytelling, including finding the right style of animation to compliment your story

45:43 - DocuView Déjà Vu

47:46 - Update & Wrap up

]]>ab7e922c-d6bc-4e43-a97c-4c1e9d8b2ba1Fri, 31 Mar 2023 18:06:00 -050049:02falsefull193193Episode 192 | Reactions to the Oscars and Keeping it CreativeEpisode 192 | Reactions to the Oscars and Keeping it CreativeGet ready for an exciting new episode of Documentary First! In episode 192, we're diving deep into the impact of life on the process of filmmaking. With team members experiencing unexpected life events, we explore how creativity is affected when life gets in the way. You won't want to miss the insightful thoughts the team received from another filmmaker, Flo Plana, and Christian's thrilling experience winning not one, but TWO camera packages at a local fundraising film festival.

Plus, with the 2023 Oscars fresh on our minds, we delve into the winners, losers and what we think this year's Oscars might mean for the future of filmmaking. Is the Academy still relevant? And how does a film get nominated? Join us for this fascinating conversation, and don't forget to check out our bonus segment on the future of the film industry, exclusively available to our Patreon supporters.

DocuView Déjà Vu Segment

Jason: "Glitch: The Rise & Fall of HQ Trivia", 2023, HBO Max https://www.imdb.com/title/tt26618018/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_5

Zach: "All The Beauty and The Bloodshed", 2022, 122 mins, Prime Video https://www.imdb.com/title/tt21374850/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_2

Christian: "Chicken People", 2016, 83 mins https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4819510/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

Conversation Time Codes:

00:30 - Zach Callaghan Bio

01:37 - Zach gives a writing update on the Taking Carentan Project

02:26 - Flo Plana came to town and gives some great suggestions to deepen the story lines of “Taking Carentan”

04:37 - Jason poses an idea for an episode - "What makes a good sizzle?"

05:58 - Topic adjustments including "Reflections on life and filming" - How life impacts or happens in the process of making a film.

10:47 - Creativity & Emotions - thoughts by Zach & Jason

13:47 - Where do creative story ideas come from?

15:48 - Christian shares about her experience a the "Patrick Live On Film Festival & Fundraiser" in the Chicago area. In particular, one short film "Fraser Syndrome and Me" had a profound impact and she was able to meet the film maker. Along with a new realization about the power of documentary films.

26:18 - Raffles, Raffles, Raffles - Christian wins 3 and 2 of those were film packages that will help with the May filming in Fort Campbell for "Taking Carentan"

27:07 - The morning after the Oscars show. The team recaps the Oscars and wonders whether this year is an indication of a changing industry

39:06 Jason Rugg was reminded of this video during the Oscars recap: Maggie Rogers - folk / Alaska (Pharrell's feedback)

41:30 - Does the Academy really matter?

48:20 - How film festivals tie into the Academy Awards and the money required to get a nomination to the Oscars.

55:02 - DocuView Déjà Vu Segment

59:45 - A quick Film update from Christian

]]>Get ready for an exciting new episode of Documentary First! In episode 192, we're diving deep into the impact of life on the process of filmmaking. With team members experiencing unexpected life events, we explore how creativity is affected when life gets in the way. You won't want to miss the insightful thoughts the team received from another filmmaker, Flo Plana, and Christian's thrilling experience winning not one, but TWO camera packages at a local fundraising film festival.

Plus, with the 2023 Oscars fresh on our minds, we delve into the winners, losers and what we think this year's Oscars might mean for the future of filmmaking. Is the Academy still relevant? And how does a film get nominated? Join us for this fascinating conversation, and don't forget to check out our bonus segment on the future of the film industry, exclusively available to our Patreon supporters.

DocuView Déjà Vu Segment

Jason: "Glitch: The Rise & Fall of HQ Trivia", 2023, HBO Max https://www.imdb.com/title/tt26618018/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_5

Zach: "All The Beauty and The Bloodshed", 2022, 122 mins, Prime Video https://www.imdb.com/title/tt21374850/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_2

Christian: "Chicken People", 2016, 83 mins https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4819510/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

Conversation Time Codes:

00:30 - Zach Callaghan Bio

01:37 - Zach gives a writing update on the Taking Carentan Project

02:26 - Flo Plana came to town and gives some great suggestions to deepen the story lines of “Taking Carentan”

04:37 - Jason poses an idea for an episode - "What makes a good sizzle?"

05:58 - Topic adjustments including "Reflections on life and filming" - How life impacts or happens in the process of making a film.

10:47 - Creativity & Emotions - thoughts by Zach & Jason

13:47 - Where do creative story ideas come from?

15:48 - Christian shares about her experience a the "Patrick Live On Film Festival & Fundraiser" in the Chicago area. In particular, one short film "Fraser Syndrome and Me" had a profound impact and she was able to meet the film maker. Along with a new realization about the power of documentary films.

26:18 - Raffles, Raffles, Raffles - Christian wins 3 and 2 of those were film packages that will help with the May filming in Fort Campbell for "Taking Carentan"

27:07 - The morning after the Oscars show. The team recaps the Oscars and wonders whether this year is an indication of a changing industry

39:06 Jason Rugg was reminded of this video during the Oscars recap: Maggie Rogers - folk / Alaska (Pharrell's feedback)

41:30 - Does the Academy really matter?

48:20 - How film festivals tie into the Academy Awards and the money required to get a nomination to the Oscars.

55:02 - DocuView Déjà Vu Segment

59:45 - A quick Film update from Christian

]]>13911500-481d-449f-a6fd-ac74152ca041Thu, 16 Mar 2023 18:45:00 -050001:01:50falsefull192192Episode 191 | Top 5 Cinematography Skills Needed with Chad GilchristEpisode 191 | Top 5 Cinematography Skills Needed with Chad GilchristWelcome to Episode 191.

Chad Gilchrist, grip and lighting guru extraordinaire, and Director of Photography for “Taking Carentan”, joins the podcast today to talk about the Top 5 skills every cinematographer needs to develop in order to be successful.

Before we get into the episode, I wanted to let you know we’re starting something really new. We have extra bonus content exclusively for our Patreon supporters. And this week, it’s going to be an extended interview with Chad talking about his work on Steven Spielberg’s favorite show of the year, “The Bear”. You don’t want to miss this!

Chad comes to the team with an amazing wealth of knowledge and skills from a variety of projects with some pretty impressive films.

This episode’s focus is on The Top 5 Skills every aspiring cinematographer needs to develop and why those skills are important.

> Tip No.1: Develop a strong network. Build friendships and relationships. There is a ripple effect in networking. A key to networking is not seeing what one can get out of it for him or herself. The question rather is: Am I genuinely curious about other people?

There really is a butterfly effect. You don’t know where and when the fruits will blossom from the seeds that you planted years ago, but it is always important to keep planting seeds.

> Tip No.2: Learn the techniques, technical skills, and then remember that it’s about how you use them.

“Creativity with what you have is filmmaking…Make it great with what you have” – Jason Rugg

> Tip No.3: Go do the thing!

> Tip No.4: Learn great communication. It matters how you manage people, it matters how you communicate, learning how to work with others is critical to success.

> Tip No.5: Be flexible and adaptable. Filmmaking is never the thing that you pictured it being – ever.

Chad and Jason expound on technology and resources useful to them from experience. They give a couple of situations when networking was a good thing for them to do.

The team shares some resources available for listeners:

Roger Deakin's Cinematography Books: https://www.rogerdeakins.com/

Dale Carnegie’s book, "How to Win Friends and Influence People": https://www.dalecarnegie.com/en/resources/how-to-win-friends-and-influence-people-chapter-1

ASC: https://theasc.com/

Brent Forrester's Online Classes: https://www.brentforrester.com/

DocuView Déjà Vu

Chad: Navalny, 2022, 1hr 39mins, HBO Max IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt17041964/

Jason: YouTube videos – 2 parts called “Halo four is worse than you remember” Part 1 – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjZMRcpbK2E Part 2 – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2XcD7BV95E

Christian: World War II in Color, 2009, Series, 13 Episodes (51 mins each): https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2069688/

05:37 – Tip 1 “Networking/ Connections/Community” 15:37 – Tip 2 “Technical Skills” 22:45 – Tip 3 ” Go do the thing – build your portfolio” 27:00 – Tip 4 “Communication – learning how to work with others” 29:09 – Tip 5 “Being flexible and adaptable” 34:19 – Resources for listeners 40:14 – DocuView Déjà Vu 45:23 – New DVD now available for purchase.

Follow our Substack Blog: https://documentaryfirst.substack.com/

Join our newsletter (bottom of page): https://thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/

Donate to help us tell more stories: https://givebutter.com/LivingStoriesLtd

Support the show: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

]]>Welcome to Episode 191.

Chad Gilchrist, grip and lighting guru extraordinaire, and Director of Photography for “Taking Carentan”, joins the podcast today to talk about the Top 5 skills every cinematographer needs to develop in order to be successful.

Before we get into the episode, I wanted to let you know we’re starting something really new. We have extra bonus content exclusively for our Patreon supporters. And this week, it’s going to be an extended interview with Chad talking about his work on Steven Spielberg’s favorite show of the year, “The Bear”. You don’t want to miss this!

Chad comes to the team with an amazing wealth of knowledge and skills from a variety of projects with some pretty impressive films.

This episode’s focus is on The Top 5 Skills every aspiring cinematographer needs to develop and why those skills are important.

> Tip No.1: Develop a strong network. Build friendships and relationships. There is a ripple effect in networking. A key to networking is not seeing what one can get out of it for him or herself. The question rather is: Am I genuinely curious about other people?

There really is a butterfly effect. You don’t know where and when the fruits will blossom from the seeds that you planted years ago, but it is always important to keep planting seeds.

> Tip No.2: Learn the techniques, technical skills, and then remember that it’s about how you use them.

“Creativity with what you have is filmmaking…Make it great with what you have” – Jason Rugg

> Tip No.3: Go do the thing!

> Tip No.4: Learn great communication. It matters how you manage people, it matters how you communicate, learning how to work with others is critical to success.

> Tip No.5: Be flexible and adaptable. Filmmaking is never the thing that you pictured it being – ever.

Chad and Jason expound on technology and resources useful to them from experience. They give a couple of situations when networking was a good thing for them to do.

The team shares some resources available for listeners:

Roger Deakin's Cinematography Books: https://www.rogerdeakins.com/

Dale Carnegie’s book, "How to Win Friends and Influence People": https://www.dalecarnegie.com/en/resources/how-to-win-friends-and-influence-people-chapter-1

ASC: https://theasc.com/

Brent Forrester's Online Classes: https://www.brentforrester.com/

DocuView Déjà Vu

Chad: Navalny, 2022, 1hr 39mins, HBO Max IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt17041964/

Jason: YouTube videos – 2 parts called “Halo four is worse than you remember” Part 1 – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjZMRcpbK2E Part 2 – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2XcD7BV95E

Christian: World War II in Color, 2009, Series, 13 Episodes (51 mins each): https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2069688/

05:37 – Tip 1 “Networking/ Connections/Community” 15:37 – Tip 2 “Technical Skills” 22:45 – Tip 3 ” Go do the thing – build your portfolio” 27:00 – Tip 4 “Communication – learning how to work with others” 29:09 – Tip 5 “Being flexible and adaptable” 34:19 – Resources for listeners 40:14 – DocuView Déjà Vu 45:23 – New DVD now available for purchase.

Follow our Substack Blog: https://documentaryfirst.substack.com/

Join our newsletter (bottom of page): https://thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/

Donate to help us tell more stories: https://givebutter.com/LivingStoriesLtd

Support the show: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

]]>f9c215d8-71d2-454b-9457-6c01afca7fd3Wed, 01 Mar 2023 10:23:00 -060048:08falsefull191191Episode 190 | Got Taste? with Jeff KurtenackerEpisode 190 | Got Taste? with Jeff KurtenackerInterested in improving your creative workflow? Jeff Kurtenacker is back to explain why it all starts with developing good taste. But it doesn’t end there, listen in to discover what it takes to improve your skills, whether it is composing music, directing films, etc.

Breakdown:

00:00-06:05 What is Taste?

06:06-14:02 Pathway to Excellence

14:03-21:36 How to Receive Constructive Criticism

21:37-31:44 DocuView Déjà Vu

DocuView Déjà Vu:

Jason: HBO’s The Last of Us Podcast (2023) https://listen.hbo.com/the-last-of-us-podcast

Jeff: Myth & Mogul: John DeLorean (2021) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt14968268/

Christian: American Factory (2021) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt9351980/

Support the show: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Follow our Substack Blog: https://documentaryfirst.substack.com/

Join our newsletter (bottom of page): https://thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/

Watch our first feature film NOW on these platforms: https://geni.us/TheGirlWhoWoreFreedom

Buy a DVD or stream in FRENCH from The Girl Who Wore Freedom Shop: https://thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/buynow/ Donate to help us tell more stories: https://givebutter.com/LivingStoriesLtd

]]>Interested in improving your creative workflow? Jeff Kurtenacker is back to explain why it all starts with developing good taste. But it doesn’t end there, listen in to discover what it takes to improve your skills, whether it is composing music, directing films, etc.

Breakdown:

00:00-06:05 What is Taste?

06:06-14:02 Pathway to Excellence

14:03-21:36 How to Receive Constructive Criticism

21:37-31:44 DocuView Déjà Vu

DocuView Déjà Vu:

Jason: HBO’s The Last of Us Podcast (2023) https://listen.hbo.com/the-last-of-us-podcast

Jeff: Myth & Mogul: John DeLorean (2021) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt14968268/

Christian: American Factory (2021) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt9351980/

Support the show: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Follow our Substack Blog: https://documentaryfirst.substack.com/

Join our newsletter (bottom of page): https://thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/

Watch our first feature film NOW on these platforms: https://geni.us/TheGirlWhoWoreFreedom

Buy a DVD or stream in FRENCH from The Girl Who Wore Freedom Shop: https://thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/buynow/ Donate to help us tell more stories: https://givebutter.com/LivingStoriesLtd

]]>aad5111d-2805-42ae-87d8-c886eadf0ccaWed, 15 Feb 2023 10:23:00 -060032:22falsefull190190Episode 189 | The Music Cue Sheet - A Conversation with Jeff KurtenackerEpisode 189 | The Music Cue Sheet - A Conversation with Jeff KurtenackerChristian and Jason do a deep dive into "the dreaded cue sheet" with Jeff Kurtenacker.

What is a music cue sheet and why is it important for your film? The benefits outweigh the costs. It is more than just a tracking document!

It's a sheet that you submit, it requires assigning a name for every piece of music in a film and adding timecodes where each piece of music starts and ends. A composer is acknowledged, and many rights are associated with it, like for some, who's names are attached to a publisher, the profits go to the performing rights organization such as ASCAP, BMI, or CSAC, etc. will collect royalties of performances or showings of this film on your behalf.

No matter if the score is only instrumental or has lyrics, musicians are supposed to be paid upfront in addition to royalties anytime anywhere it is used.

Jeff & Christian share their experiences learning this element of the music business.

If you are a producer or director, think twice about the music you're using in your film.

Breakdown: 0:00 - Introductions and set up about the music cue sheet and its function

9:18 - Who does the tracking for royalties, the organizations. Who is ASCA & BMI and their functionality

12:03 - What does it look like for Jeff as the composer and publisher

13:19 - Christian share her perspective as the filmmaker and uses the example of TGWWF and how it works with "managed rights"

19:30 - Jeff & Christian unpack more about music rights and "public domain"

23:19 - Jeff re-iterates the need to protect the integrity of the work as it was intended to be used.

26:50 - Christian shares the story The Go-Go's and the reason they split up as it relates top royalties and music rights.

32:54 - Budgets for music rights in film, TV, and social media

36:47 - Is the music crucial to the story-telling? This impacts the decision to pay for the licensing & rights.

39:37 - Jeff gives a middle of the road option for music

41:05 - DocuView Déjà Vu

Christian: Meltdown: Three Mile Island - NETFLIX, Docu-Series - 4 Episodes, 2hrs 52 mins total IMDB link: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt19757508/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_3

Jeff: Chernobyl, Minis Series, HBO Max, 5 Episodes, 5hrs 30 mins total IMDB Link: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7366338/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

Jason: Podcast Episode recommendation - Show is 20000 Hertz - Episode on "The Price Is Right Theme song" Podcast link: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/the-price-is-right-yeah-yeah/id1171270672?i=1000453427580

]]>Christian and Jason do a deep dive into "the dreaded cue sheet" with Jeff Kurtenacker.

What is a music cue sheet and why is it important for your film? The benefits outweigh the costs. It is more than just a tracking document!

It's a sheet that you submit, it requires assigning a name for every piece of music in a film and adding timecodes where each piece of music starts and ends. A composer is acknowledged, and many rights are associated with it, like for some, who's names are attached to a publisher, the profits go to the performing rights organization such as ASCAP, BMI, or CSAC, etc. will collect royalties of performances or showings of this film on your behalf.

No matter if the score is only instrumental or has lyrics, musicians are supposed to be paid upfront in addition to royalties anytime anywhere it is used.

Jeff & Christian share their experiences learning this element of the music business.

If you are a producer or director, think twice about the music you're using in your film.

Breakdown: 0:00 - Introductions and set up about the music cue sheet and its function

9:18 - Who does the tracking for royalties, the organizations. Who is ASCA & BMI and their functionality

12:03 - What does it look like for Jeff as the composer and publisher

13:19 - Christian share her perspective as the filmmaker and uses the example of TGWWF and how it works with "managed rights"

19:30 - Jeff & Christian unpack more about music rights and "public domain"

23:19 - Jeff re-iterates the need to protect the integrity of the work as it was intended to be used.

26:50 - Christian shares the story The Go-Go's and the reason they split up as it relates top royalties and music rights.

32:54 - Budgets for music rights in film, TV, and social media

36:47 - Is the music crucial to the story-telling? This impacts the decision to pay for the licensing & rights.

39:37 - Jeff gives a middle of the road option for music

41:05 - DocuView Déjà Vu

Christian: Meltdown: Three Mile Island - NETFLIX, Docu-Series - 4 Episodes, 2hrs 52 mins total IMDB link: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt19757508/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_3

Jeff: Chernobyl, Minis Series, HBO Max, 5 Episodes, 5hrs 30 mins total IMDB Link: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7366338/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

Jason: Podcast Episode recommendation - Show is 20000 Hertz - Episode on "The Price Is Right Theme song" Podcast link: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/the-price-is-right-yeah-yeah/id1171270672?i=1000453427580

]]>a12efd08-6366-402c-9bc6-63539c0d68e1Thu, 02 Feb 2023 07:53:00 -060051:46falsefull189189Episode 188 | New Year, New BeginningsEpisode 188 | New Year, New BeginningsThis week on the podcast Christian talks with Ben Feithen, Documentary First's CEO, about plans for Documentary First in 2023.

The DocFirst team is smaller now, and they ponder how to do more with less? When you hear the word "AI" - do you think about the Terminator series.....?????

Well, don't be alarmed, in this podcast we unpack the pros and cons of a few new exciting automation and AI tools.

00:00 - 09:43 - A review on how Ben joined the team to help Christian with Documentary First through her son, Hunter Taylor

09:34 - 20:35 - Ben's thoughts on content ideas, 2023 strategy and an ensuing conversation with Christian about content creation with less resources. How does automation looks like as an answer to our problem and how can "AI" tools can help our social media engagement?

20:35 - 26:38 - Using AI to help create a new blog for Documentary First called "Stories of Service" and using AI tools to help with a backlog of content and stories not used yet.

26:39 - 34:59 - DocuView Déjà Vu: Ben: All Quiet on the Western Front (2022), imdb.com/title/tt1016150, a remake on Netflix, 148 mins (2hr 28 mins), Ben shares his thoughts from his military background and relevance to what is going on in the world today.

Christian: D.B. Cooper: Where Are You?! (2022), imdb.com/title/tt21063148, Limited 4 Episode Documentary Series on Netflix

35:00 - Wrap up - We want to hear from documentary filmmakers about your experiences and any problems you have bumped into. We would love to work as a community to help solve some of those problems and hear how you may have solved them. Please chime in, whether it's writing an email to christian@documentaryfirst.com, tagging us on any one of the socials or joining us on Patreon and helping us you know, do something pretty great there. We really want to hear from what YOU want to hear. What do you want to know? What questions do you have? Let us know. And we'll keep producing great content for you.

Subscribe to "Stories of Service " on Substack: https://documentaryfirst.substack.com/

Visit our new website: www.documentaryfirst.com

Make a donation to help us share more stories! https://www.livingstoriesltd.org/

Links and resources mentioned:

"Copy AI": https://www.copy.ai/ "ChatGPT": https://openai.com/

Thanks again for listening and we look forward to hearing from you.

]]>This week on the podcast Christian talks with Ben Feithen, Documentary First's CEO, about plans for Documentary First in 2023.

The DocFirst team is smaller now, and they ponder how to do more with less? When you hear the word "AI" - do you think about the Terminator series.....?????

Well, don't be alarmed, in this podcast we unpack the pros and cons of a few new exciting automation and AI tools.

00:00 - 09:43 - A review on how Ben joined the team to help Christian with Documentary First through her son, Hunter Taylor

09:34 - 20:35 - Ben's thoughts on content ideas, 2023 strategy and an ensuing conversation with Christian about content creation with less resources. How does automation looks like as an answer to our problem and how can "AI" tools can help our social media engagement?

20:35 - 26:38 - Using AI to help create a new blog for Documentary First called "Stories of Service" and using AI tools to help with a backlog of content and stories not used yet.

26:39 - 34:59 - DocuView Déjà Vu: Ben: All Quiet on the Western Front (2022), imdb.com/title/tt1016150, a remake on Netflix, 148 mins (2hr 28 mins), Ben shares his thoughts from his military background and relevance to what is going on in the world today.

Christian: D.B. Cooper: Where Are You?! (2022), imdb.com/title/tt21063148, Limited 4 Episode Documentary Series on Netflix

35:00 - Wrap up - We want to hear from documentary filmmakers about your experiences and any problems you have bumped into. We would love to work as a community to help solve some of those problems and hear how you may have solved them. Please chime in, whether it's writing an email to christian@documentaryfirst.com, tagging us on any one of the socials or joining us on Patreon and helping us you know, do something pretty great there. We really want to hear from what YOU want to hear. What do you want to know? What questions do you have? Let us know. And we'll keep producing great content for you.

Subscribe to "Stories of Service " on Substack: https://documentaryfirst.substack.com/

Visit our new website: www.documentaryfirst.com

Make a donation to help us share more stories! https://www.livingstoriesltd.org/

Links and resources mentioned:

"Copy AI": https://www.copy.ai/ "ChatGPT": https://openai.com/

Thanks again for listening and we look forward to hearing from you.

]]>9ed57ba6-e9b9-4145-a997-a44b1f7b6ca7Thu, 19 Jan 2023 07:33:00 -060037:42falsefull188188Episode 187 | Carentan Adventures Continued with Chad & Tayler - Part 2Episode 187 | Carentan Adventures Continued with Chad & Tayler - Part 2Hear the rest of the story from the film-making duo, the Gilchrist's, and how they collaborated with the local French people, in particular with Francois. Find out how he got to know Christian and provided background extras-- And local police gets involved? Hear how our team avoided penalties; Did we bribe them with cookies...?

DocuView Déjà Vu:

Chad: The Dissident (2020) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11382384/?ref_=fn_al_tt_3

Christian: Louis Armstrong's Black & Blue (2022) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt14447458/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_5

]]>Hear the rest of the story from the film-making duo, the Gilchrist's, and how they collaborated with the local French people, in particular with Francois. Find out how he got to know Christian and provided background extras-- And local police gets involved? Hear how our team avoided penalties; Did we bribe them with cookies...?

DocuView Déjà Vu:

Chad: The Dissident (2020) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11382384/?ref_=fn_al_tt_3

Christian: Louis Armstrong's Black & Blue (2022) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt14447458/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_5

]]>8adcffcb-004d-41d9-8d58-6213a694512dThu, 05 Jan 2023 09:11:00 -060001:01:23falsefull187187Episode 186 | Carentan Adventures with Chad & Tayler Part 1Episode 186 | Carentan Adventures with Chad & Tayler Part 1Christian & Jason finally get to chat with Tayler & Chad Gilchrist.

We find out how they met Christian and the journey of going to France this past summer to be a part of the team to film the sizzle reel for our Carentan Project.

DocuView Déjà Vu: Tayler Gilchrist: Into The Deep (2020) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11394296/?ref_=fn_al_tt_2

]]>Christian & Jason finally get to chat with Tayler & Chad Gilchrist.

We find out how they met Christian and the journey of going to France this past summer to be a part of the team to film the sizzle reel for our Carentan Project.

DocuView Déjà Vu: Tayler Gilchrist: Into The Deep (2020) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11394296/?ref_=fn_al_tt_2

]]>eae9caf5-163b-4779-a01e-6be5a111a2aaThu, 22 Dec 2022 14:26:00 -060043:28falsefull186186Episode 185 | Breaking News and Company UpdatesEpisode 185 | Breaking News and Company UpdatesThis week there's a lot to recap, but first...introducing a possibly new segment called "News for the Day!" Coming off an East Coast tour, Christian talks new advancements in finding an audience that are made through connections. It is Robbie's last episode, cheers! Please rate and review our film, The Girl Who Wore Freedom, on Rotten Tomatoes!

Docu-View DejaVu:

Christian: Pepsi, Where's My Jet? (2022) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt23022276/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0

Robbie: Light & Magic (2022) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt19896784/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0

]]>This week there's a lot to recap, but first...introducing a possibly new segment called "News for the Day!" Coming off an East Coast tour, Christian talks new advancements in finding an audience that are made through connections. It is Robbie's last episode, cheers! Please rate and review our film, The Girl Who Wore Freedom, on Rotten Tomatoes!

Docu-View DejaVu:

Christian: Pepsi, Where's My Jet? (2022) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt23022276/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0

Robbie: Light & Magic (2022) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt19896784/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0

]]>0bcadb46-638e-4317-bb18-53019d235bf5Thu, 08 Dec 2022 06:57:00 -060045:03falsefull185185When Tapes Cost $69: How the Movie Business ChangedWhen Tapes Cost $69: How the Movie Business ChangedWhat happens when the business you love keeps changing underneath you?

The movie business once ran on $69 videotapes and 29,000 video stores. Joe Amodei of Virgil Films was there for all of it, and on his second visit he tells the history of home video and film distribution as he lived it: the video store boom, the switch to DVD, the first streaming deals, and the free, ad-supported sites he once said nobody would watch.

In Episode 183, Christian Taylor sits down with Joe Amodei, with Jason Rugg hosting and co-host Robbie asking questions too. Joe tells how a store called Video Village pulled him away from fixing sewing machines, how one store became an 18-store chain, and what a video convention in Las Vegas looked like when Paramount built a replica of the Titanic on the showroom floor. He remembers when tapes cost video stores $69, what changed when Paramount sold Raiders of the Lost Ark for $19.99, and how Bing Crosby and Jerry Lewis quietly pioneered videotape.

The heart of the conversation is why Joe keeps going. He tells what Robert Altman said about him on a call ("he's not a suit"), why he finished a film about his hero Clarence Clemons after Clarence died four weeks into the project, and why a distribution market he called "probably the worst it ever has been" still doesn't make him want to retire. "I watch movies for a living," he says. Christian asks the question every independent filmmaker had that fall: where do our films go now? Joe's answers are honest and sometimes hard. Christian also shares what happened the week The Girl Who Wore Freedom came out on video on demand, from a screening for 250 high school students in New York to a screening in Atlanta.

Full disclosure: Virgil Films distributes The Girl Who Wore Freedom, released on video on demand November 1, 2022, and now sponsors Documentary First. This episode has no sponsor read.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How one video store grew into an 18-store chain
  • When a VHS tape cost a video store $69
  • What Raiders of the Lost Ark at $19.99 did to the business
  • How Bing Crosby and Jerry Lewis pioneered videotape
  • What Joe said when Netflix first asked him for 100 movies to stream
  • Why streamers stopped licensing films and started making their own
  • When a filmmaker should walk away from a project
  • How an Amazon rental gets split, in Joe's example
  • Why Joe changed his mind about AVOD sites like Tubi and Pluto

CHAPTERS

0:00 Joe's Second Visit

2:48 Sewing Machines to VHS

9:22 When Tapes Cost $69

15:35 He's Not a Suit

20:05 Working With Clarence Clemons

25:53 Worst Market Ever?

32:55 Where Do Indies Go?

43:28 How the Money Flows

47:53 Films Can Change People

52:33 Betting on AVOD

1:00:43 DocuView Deja View Picks

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

How did home video start?

Joe Amodei of Virgil Films told Documentary First in 2022 that home video started with Magnetic Video, which put out a small group of 20th Century Fox films on tape, sold at first in camera stores. Video stores paid $69 a tape, so the business was rentals only, until Paramount tested Raiders of the Lost Ark at $19.99 and everybody bought it.

How much should an independent documentary cost?

Speaking in 2022, Joe Amodei said the days of two or three million dollar documentaries are over unless the subject is someone like Whitney Houston. Documentaries can be made for $300,000 to $500,000 and earn that back over several years. Spend $700,000 or $800,000 on a documentary that isn't a sensational story, he warned, and you're going to be in trouble.

How does a filmmaker get paid when a film is rented on Amazon?

Joe Amodei explained in 2022 that a distributor can only suggest a retail price; Amazon sets the actual price but pays the distributor's cut of the suggested price. In his example, which he stressed was not his real split, a 50/50 cut on $12.99 brings in about $6.50. The distributor takes its percentage and its costs, and the filmmaker gets the rest.

Is AVOD good for independent films?

Joe Amodei told Documentary First in 2022 that he first said nobody would watch movies with commercials. Then Tubi and Pluto grew to 60 or 70 million members within a year, and AVOD became the one part of the business where he saw growth. Tubi in particular loves documentaries, he said, and he expects AVOD to be an even bigger part of independent film's future.

DocuView Deja View Picks

Jason: Why You Should Watch Experimental Docs (YouTube video essay)

Robbie: Closed for Storm

Christian: Travelin' Band: Creedence Clearwater Revival at the Royal Albert Hall

Joe: Sidney

Listen and Follow

https://pod.fo/e/4a801a

Support the show

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect

All social platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

About the Guest

Joe Amodei started at a local video store, worked at Turner and Polygram, and ran USA Home Entertainment, releasing films like Traffic and Being John Malkovich, before starting the company that became Virgil Films. Follow Virgil on Instagram and X.

About Virgil Films

Virgil Films and Entertainment acquires and distributes documentaries, feature films and series. Its releases include Super Size Me, the Oscar-nominated Restrepo, Forks Over Knives, Glen Campbell: I'll Be Me and I Am Chris Farley. virgilfilms.com

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned


]]>What happens when the business you love keeps changing underneath you?

The movie business once ran on $69 videotapes and 29,000 video stores. Joe Amodei of Virgil Films was there for all of it, and on his second visit he tells the history of home video and film distribution as he lived it: the video store boom, the switch to DVD, the first streaming deals, and the free, ad-supported sites he once said nobody would watch.

In Episode 183, Christian Taylor sits down with Joe Amodei, with Jason Rugg hosting and co-host Robbie asking questions too. Joe tells how a store called Video Village pulled him away from fixing sewing machines, how one store became an 18-store chain, and what a video convention in Las Vegas looked like when Paramount built a replica of the Titanic on the showroom floor. He remembers when tapes cost video stores $69, what changed when Paramount sold Raiders of the Lost Ark for $19.99, and how Bing Crosby and Jerry Lewis quietly pioneered videotape.

The heart of the conversation is why Joe keeps going. He tells what Robert Altman said about him on a call ("he's not a suit"), why he finished a film about his hero Clarence Clemons after Clarence died four weeks into the project, and why a distribution market he called "probably the worst it ever has been" still doesn't make him want to retire. "I watch movies for a living," he says. Christian asks the question every independent filmmaker had that fall: where do our films go now? Joe's answers are honest and sometimes hard. Christian also shares what happened the week The Girl Who Wore Freedom came out on video on demand, from a screening for 250 high school students in New York to a screening in Atlanta.

Full disclosure: Virgil Films distributes The Girl Who Wore Freedom, released on video on demand November 1, 2022, and now sponsors Documentary First. This episode has no sponsor read.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How one video store grew into an 18-store chain
  • When a VHS tape cost a video store $69
  • What Raiders of the Lost Ark at $19.99 did to the business
  • How Bing Crosby and Jerry Lewis pioneered videotape
  • What Joe said when Netflix first asked him for 100 movies to stream
  • Why streamers stopped licensing films and started making their own
  • When a filmmaker should walk away from a project
  • How an Amazon rental gets split, in Joe's example
  • Why Joe changed his mind about AVOD sites like Tubi and Pluto

CHAPTERS

0:00 Joe's Second Visit

2:48 Sewing Machines to VHS

9:22 When Tapes Cost $69

15:35 He's Not a Suit

20:05 Working With Clarence Clemons

25:53 Worst Market Ever?

32:55 Where Do Indies Go?

43:28 How the Money Flows

47:53 Films Can Change People

52:33 Betting on AVOD

1:00:43 DocuView Deja View Picks

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

How did home video start?

Joe Amodei of Virgil Films told Documentary First in 2022 that home video started with Magnetic Video, which put out a small group of 20th Century Fox films on tape, sold at first in camera stores. Video stores paid $69 a tape, so the business was rentals only, until Paramount tested Raiders of the Lost Ark at $19.99 and everybody bought it.

How much should an independent documentary cost?

Speaking in 2022, Joe Amodei said the days of two or three million dollar documentaries are over unless the subject is someone like Whitney Houston. Documentaries can be made for $300,000 to $500,000 and earn that back over several years. Spend $700,000 or $800,000 on a documentary that isn't a sensational story, he warned, and you're going to be in trouble.

How does a filmmaker get paid when a film is rented on Amazon?

Joe Amodei explained in 2022 that a distributor can only suggest a retail price; Amazon sets the actual price but pays the distributor's cut of the suggested price. In his example, which he stressed was not his real split, a 50/50 cut on $12.99 brings in about $6.50. The distributor takes its percentage and its costs, and the filmmaker gets the rest.

Is AVOD good for independent films?

Joe Amodei told Documentary First in 2022 that he first said nobody would watch movies with commercials. Then Tubi and Pluto grew to 60 or 70 million members within a year, and AVOD became the one part of the business where he saw growth. Tubi in particular loves documentaries, he said, and he expects AVOD to be an even bigger part of independent film's future.

DocuView Deja View Picks

Jason: Why You Should Watch Experimental Docs (YouTube video essay)

Robbie: Closed for Storm

Christian: Travelin' Band: Creedence Clearwater Revival at the Royal Albert Hall

Joe: Sidney

Listen and Follow

https://pod.fo/e/4a801a

Support the show

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect

All social platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

About the Guest

Joe Amodei started at a local video store, worked at Turner and Polygram, and ran USA Home Entertainment, releasing films like Traffic and Being John Malkovich, before starting the company that became Virgil Films. Follow Virgil on Instagram and X.

About Virgil Films

Virgil Films and Entertainment acquires and distributes documentaries, feature films and series. Its releases include Super Size Me, the Oscar-nominated Restrepo, Forks Over Knives, Glen Campbell: I'll Be Me and I Am Chris Farley. virgilfilms.com

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned


]]>f5057a1d-495c-4705-a95e-fb245a634ab6Sat, 12 Nov 2022 19:06:00 -060001:12:16falsefull183183Episode 182 | Story Symposium Part 2Episode 182 | Story Symposium Part 2How do you tell a story when the protagonist is a place? Our very own script-writer, Zach Callaghan, says "identity and purpose" are the two big things he looks for. Listen to his process of taking footage shot back in June 2022 for the Carentan project and developing it into a story.

DocuView Déjà Vu:

Christian:

The Martha Mitchell Effect (2022) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt16379454

They'll Love Me When I'm Dead (2018) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6893836/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0

Jason:

The Greatest Beer Run Ever (2015) This is a companion documentary to the feature by the same name. YouTube Link: https://youtu.be/D4WAUmyKDq0

Robbie:

The Wrecking Crew (2008) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1185418/

Zach:

F for Fake (1973) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0072962/

]]>How do you tell a story when the protagonist is a place? Our very own script-writer, Zach Callaghan, says "identity and purpose" are the two big things he looks for. Listen to his process of taking footage shot back in June 2022 for the Carentan project and developing it into a story.

DocuView Déjà Vu:

Christian:

The Martha Mitchell Effect (2022) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt16379454

They'll Love Me When I'm Dead (2018) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6893836/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0

Jason:

The Greatest Beer Run Ever (2015) This is a companion documentary to the feature by the same name. YouTube Link: https://youtu.be/D4WAUmyKDq0

Robbie:

The Wrecking Crew (2008) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1185418/

Zach:

F for Fake (1973) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0072962/

]]>579c97e6-56a1-45c9-86a6-c69ac1219eccThu, 27 Oct 2022 06:33:00 -050056:40falsefull182182Episode 181 | "Oh the Humanity!" Story SymposiumEpisode 181 | "Oh the Humanity!" Story SymposiumThere has been a team shuffle. Jason Rugg is now in the host seat with Robbie Davis joining Christian and Jason.

Christian gives an update before an impromptu "symposium" on story. Life is never linear or straight forward. Christian shares from her heart about the topsy-turviness of life with family and balancing work and priorities/commitments made that need to be honored.

Much gratitude was given in the midst of a successful roller coaster event at the 2022 Currahee Military Weekend.

Questions discussed: What makes a good story? How do you find a story in the midst of all the information and conversations?

There are many treasures to be gleaned from this conversation. Get ready to exercise your cheek muscles. :-)

DocuView Déjà Vu:

Jason: Brent Forrester's TV Comedy Course https://www.brentforrester.com/webinar

Robbie: Undefeated (2011) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1860355/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0

Christian: The Mystery of Marilyn Monroe: The Unheard Tapes (2022) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt19034332/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0

]]>There has been a team shuffle. Jason Rugg is now in the host seat with Robbie Davis joining Christian and Jason.

Christian gives an update before an impromptu "symposium" on story. Life is never linear or straight forward. Christian shares from her heart about the topsy-turviness of life with family and balancing work and priorities/commitments made that need to be honored.

Much gratitude was given in the midst of a successful roller coaster event at the 2022 Currahee Military Weekend.

Questions discussed: What makes a good story? How do you find a story in the midst of all the information and conversations?

There are many treasures to be gleaned from this conversation. Get ready to exercise your cheek muscles. :-)

DocuView Déjà Vu:

Jason: Brent Forrester's TV Comedy Course https://www.brentforrester.com/webinar

Robbie: Undefeated (2011) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1860355/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0

Christian: The Mystery of Marilyn Monroe: The Unheard Tapes (2022) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt19034332/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0

]]>92fea53b-e25a-40db-b2d5-0380d1fb1ac4Wed, 12 Oct 2022 16:55:00 -050047:06falsefull181181Episode 180 | Coming to a Streaming Service Near You!Episode 180 | Coming to a Streaming Service Near You!Today we’re joined by a special guest, but first an update! The Girl Who Wore Freedom will be available on many streaming services soon, thanks to Virgil Films. We discuss E&O Insurance, and then dive into an update about The Documentary First Podcast.

Judith Pearson Official Website: https://judithlpearson.com/books/the-wolves-at-the-door/

Virginia Hall: The True Story of America's Greatest Female Spy: https://www.ouramericanstories.com/podcast/history/virginia-hall-the-true-story-of-america-s-greatest-female-spy

DocuView Déjà Vu:

Robbie: The Sparks Brothers (2021) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8610436/

Jason’s: The Rescue (2021) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt9098872

Christian: Count me In (2021) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6889042

]]>Today we’re joined by a special guest, but first an update! The Girl Who Wore Freedom will be available on many streaming services soon, thanks to Virgil Films. We discuss E&O Insurance, and then dive into an update about The Documentary First Podcast.

Judith Pearson Official Website: https://judithlpearson.com/books/the-wolves-at-the-door/

Virginia Hall: The True Story of America's Greatest Female Spy: https://www.ouramericanstories.com/podcast/history/virginia-hall-the-true-story-of-america-s-greatest-female-spy

DocuView Déjà Vu:

Robbie: The Sparks Brothers (2021) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8610436/

Jason’s: The Rescue (2021) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt9098872

Christian: Count me In (2021) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6889042

]]>4456bcdc-43cb-47e0-ae80-9e832ab7ecc6Thu, 29 Sep 2022 15:52:00 -050035:32falsefull180180Episode 179 | Movies, Updates, and More MoviesEpisode 179 | Movies, Updates, and More MoviesToday we discuss "The Bear" and "Kobra Kai", then jump into discussing the current state of Christian’s next project: funding and budgets!

DocuView Déjà Vu:

Josh’s: Hands on a Hardbody: The Documentary (1997) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116481/

Jason’s: Obi Wan Kenobi: A Jedi’s Return (2022) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt21860836/

Christian’s: Lucy and Desi (2022) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt12971802/

]]>Today we discuss "The Bear" and "Kobra Kai", then jump into discussing the current state of Christian’s next project: funding and budgets!

DocuView Déjà Vu:

Josh’s: Hands on a Hardbody: The Documentary (1997) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116481/

Jason’s: Obi Wan Kenobi: A Jedi’s Return (2022) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt21860836/

Christian’s: Lucy and Desi (2022) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt12971802/

]]>5088dc5f-e3d7-4b06-954d-ff30bc37eab9Thu, 15 Sep 2022 06:03:00 -050051:09falsefull179179A Happy Accident and a Distributor Who ListensA Happy Accident and a Distributor Who ListensChristian has some exciting updates about the Carentan sizzle reel and The Brave Dutch! Also, she recently had a wonderful time zooming in alongside Michèle Phoenix at a screening held at Documentary First's long-time friend, Laura Priebe's, church. If you are interested in live events, you can email Christan@documentaryfirst.com.

Tickets for Currahee Military Museum, Toccoa, GA, September 29 event Adult: https://www.toccoahistory.com/storeandmemberships/the-girl-who-wore-freedom-adult-ticket-10 Student or Child: https://www.toccoahistory.com/storeandmemberships/the-girl-who-wore-freedom-student-or-child

DocuView Déjà Vu:

Christian's: Bob Ross: Happy Accidents, Betrayal & Greed (2021) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt14539744/

]]>Christian has some exciting updates about the Carentan sizzle reel and The Brave Dutch! Also, she recently had a wonderful time zooming in alongside Michèle Phoenix at a screening held at Documentary First's long-time friend, Laura Priebe's, church. If you are interested in live events, you can email Christan@documentaryfirst.com.

Tickets for Currahee Military Museum, Toccoa, GA, September 29 event Adult: https://www.toccoahistory.com/storeandmemberships/the-girl-who-wore-freedom-adult-ticket-10 Student or Child: https://www.toccoahistory.com/storeandmemberships/the-girl-who-wore-freedom-student-or-child

DocuView Déjà Vu:

Christian's: Bob Ross: Happy Accidents, Betrayal & Greed (2021) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt14539744/

]]>c8f11e62-a7d0-4342-a501-3557f43dcaffThu, 01 Sep 2022 10:31:00 -050012:53falsefull178178Episode 177 | Small WinsEpisode 177 | Small WinsStaying afloat selling a movie has its own set of troubles. This week we celebrate the small wins! The Girl Who Wore Freedom is one step closer to being represented by Virgil Films. Also, new connections introduce new ways of producing income.

DocuView Déjà Vu:

Christian's: Perfect Bid: The Contestant Who Knew Too Much (2017): www.imdb.com/title/tt6854248

Josh's: Light & Magic (2022): https://www.imdb.com/title/tt19896784/

Jason's: The G Word with Adam Conover (2022): https://www.imdb.com/title/tt13649532/

]]>Staying afloat selling a movie has its own set of troubles. This week we celebrate the small wins! The Girl Who Wore Freedom is one step closer to being represented by Virgil Films. Also, new connections introduce new ways of producing income.

DocuView Déjà Vu:

Christian's: Perfect Bid: The Contestant Who Knew Too Much (2017): www.imdb.com/title/tt6854248

Josh's: Light & Magic (2022): https://www.imdb.com/title/tt19896784/

Jason's: The G Word with Adam Conover (2022): https://www.imdb.com/title/tt13649532/

]]>0ae0236e-8ce8-499f-8828-d9c98b414eafThu, 18 Aug 2022 11:48:00 -050045:39falsefull177177Episode 176 | Distribution 2.0Episode 176 | Distribution 2.0Today we’re joined by Christian, Josh and Jason! We talk through Christian’s new distribution deal, Error and Omission Insurance and in person screenings of the film!

DocuView Déjà Vu:

Josh’s: The Staircase (2022): https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11324406/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0

The Staircase (2004): https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388644/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_3

Christian’s: Made you Look: A True Story About Fake Art (2020): https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11994750/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0

Jason’s: The Inside Outtakes - Bo Burnham (2022): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XWEVoI40sE

RRR: Rise Roar Revolt (2022)(Not a documentary): https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8178634/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0

]]>Today we’re joined by Christian, Josh and Jason! We talk through Christian’s new distribution deal, Error and Omission Insurance and in person screenings of the film!

DocuView Déjà Vu:

Josh’s: The Staircase (2022): https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11324406/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0

The Staircase (2004): https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388644/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_3

Christian’s: Made you Look: A True Story About Fake Art (2020): https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11994750/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0

Jason’s: The Inside Outtakes - Bo Burnham (2022): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XWEVoI40sE

RRR: Rise Roar Revolt (2022)(Not a documentary): https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8178634/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0

]]>fcd3ae4d-f395-4321-b33f-5a8321600848Wed, 03 Aug 2022 23:22:00 -050036:51falsefull176176Episode 175 | More on Distribution and Next StepsEpisode 175 | More on Distribution and Next StepsChristian is looking for new ways to distribute her film even as her team starts focusing on other projects. Josh wonders how much value there is in putting energy into a film that has already run its course in the film circuit.

DocuView Déjà Vu: Josh's: Empire of Dreams: The Story of the 'Star Wars' Trilogy (2004) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0416716/ Christian's: Web of Make Believe: Death, Lies and the Internet (2022) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt20602042/

]]>Christian is looking for new ways to distribute her film even as her team starts focusing on other projects. Josh wonders how much value there is in putting energy into a film that has already run its course in the film circuit.

DocuView Déjà Vu: Josh's: Empire of Dreams: The Story of the 'Star Wars' Trilogy (2004) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0416716/ Christian's: Web of Make Believe: Death, Lies and the Internet (2022) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt20602042/

]]>622c7e24-7222-46c6-857e-6c8c6f349790Thu, 21 Jul 2022 06:24:00 -050040:43falsefull175175Episode 174 | Sound PerspectiveEpisode 174 | Sound PerspectiveChristian sits down with her sound team, Jeff Kurtenacker (Composer) and Jason Hoban (Sound Engineer), to bounce ideas around concerning the development of her next project, The Brave Dutch.

DocuView Déjà Vu: Christian's: Jane (2017) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7207238/ Jeff's: Our Father (2022) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt19704638/ Jason's: Trafficked with Mariana Van Zeller (2020) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10370750

]]>Christian sits down with her sound team, Jeff Kurtenacker (Composer) and Jason Hoban (Sound Engineer), to bounce ideas around concerning the development of her next project, The Brave Dutch.

DocuView Déjà Vu: Christian's: Jane (2017) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7207238/ Jeff's: Our Father (2022) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt19704638/ Jason's: Trafficked with Mariana Van Zeller (2020) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10370750

]]>a34bdc56-cd5b-490d-8e91-4bb43dcd9f2bThu, 14 Jul 2022 07:40:00 -050049:01falsefull174174Episode 173 | Mourning The LossesEpisode 173 | Mourning The LossesToday we’re back with Josh, Christian and Jason. We stop and remember Brad Freeman of Easy Company, and discuss what’s going on with the film now, and the highs and lows of production.

DocuView Déjà Vu: Josh’s: Val (2021) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt14731254 Christian’s: Julia (2021) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt13782428 Jason’s: Chernobyl: the Lost Tapes (2022) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt13913326

]]>Today we’re back with Josh, Christian and Jason. We stop and remember Brad Freeman of Easy Company, and discuss what’s going on with the film now, and the highs and lows of production.

DocuView Déjà Vu: Josh’s: Val (2021) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt14731254 Christian’s: Julia (2021) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt13782428 Jason’s: Chernobyl: the Lost Tapes (2022) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt13913326

]]>b67fcfd0-2002-435b-8b27-89327a274fc3Thu, 07 Jul 2022 06:35:00 -050047:31falsefull173173Episode 172 | Notes From the Writer's DeskEpisode 172 | Notes From the Writer's DeskZach Callaghan refreshes us on how he joined the team as a staff writer. Initially hired to help with documentary guideline work, he also shares how he become an impromptu production crew member in France.

]]>Zach Callaghan refreshes us on how he joined the team as a staff writer. Initially hired to help with documentary guideline work, he also shares how he become an impromptu production crew member in France.

]]>66cd8e4f-7b12-4712-b6b7-840a7f741d87Thu, 30 Jun 2022 03:37:00 -050053:30falsefull172172Episode 171 | The Band is Back Together! (sort of)Episode 171 | The Band is Back Together! (sort of)At the tail-end of her journey in France this Summer, Christian talks with Josh Lindsay about the thick of what was a packed schedule. Screenings, filming a sizzle reel, and honoring veterans were just a few of the things on the list. Listen to hear the rest!

DocuView Déjà Vu: American Movie: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0181288/ Somebody Feed Phil: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7752034

]]>At the tail-end of her journey in France this Summer, Christian talks with Josh Lindsay about the thick of what was a packed schedule. Screenings, filming a sizzle reel, and honoring veterans were just a few of the things on the list. Listen to hear the rest!

DocuView Déjà Vu: American Movie: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0181288/ Somebody Feed Phil: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7752034

]]>90c6cdb9-29eb-41ee-9823-3800a54ce214Thu, 23 Jun 2022 06:34:00 -050054:43falsefull171171Episode 170 | And We're Back!Episode 170 | And We're Back!Carentan sizzle reel shoot is done! Christian and Co-Producer, Michelle Coupey review the past few weeks with TGWWF and give a quick peek into the most recent shoot in Normandy.

]]>Carentan sizzle reel shoot is done! Christian and Co-Producer, Michelle Coupey review the past few weeks with TGWWF and give a quick peek into the most recent shoot in Normandy.

]]>3ddee742-3deb-44ce-8f6f-493f777cf4ecThu, 16 Jun 2022 08:00:00 -050041:25falsefull170170Back to Normandy With 30 WWII VeteransBack to Normandy With 30 WWII VeteransBy the time you're reading this, Christian will have already left Georgia for France. This is a fresh recollection of the whirlwind of events that's happened on the US side with companies like Delta, Michelin, and the Best Defense Foundation. But now we're off to Normandy to film our next project, and how things like hiring a French crew on site and bringing over the Documentary First team is discussed.

]]>By the time you're reading this, Christian will have already left Georgia for France. This is a fresh recollection of the whirlwind of events that's happened on the US side with companies like Delta, Michelin, and the Best Defense Foundation. But now we're off to Normandy to film our next project, and how things like hiring a French crew on site and bringing over the Documentary First team is discussed.

]]>c7debc2e-7cc9-432a-8237-265f18c32e74Thu, 02 Jun 2022 17:48:00 -050008:53falsefull169169Episode 168 | Corporate SponsorsEpisode 168 | Corporate SponsorsChristian and Jason dive into Christian’s last week of travels for the film, then we dive into corporate sponsorships and what they mean for filmmakers.

Christian walks us through her visit to New York City, the players club, site seeing, and visiting Staten Island.

After that we dive into corporate sponsorships, what they mean for a filmmaker, a film, and the company sponsoring.

XUMO.TV

DocuView Déjà Vu:

Lost in La Mancha: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0308514/

]]>Christian and Jason dive into Christian’s last week of travels for the film, then we dive into corporate sponsorships and what they mean for filmmakers.

Christian walks us through her visit to New York City, the players club, site seeing, and visiting Staten Island.

After that we dive into corporate sponsorships, what they mean for a filmmaker, a film, and the company sponsoring.

XUMO.TV

DocuView Déjà Vu:

Lost in La Mancha: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0308514/

]]>85e62ead-6bba-431a-9167-d47e5ad82c9dThu, 26 May 2022 06:26:00 -050055:12falsefull168168Episode 167 | Reims RecapEpisode 167 | Reims RecapToday we’re joined by just Christian and Jason, Christian’s back from Reims, France. We discuss Josh’s middle initial, Christian’s visit to the Red Movie Awards, and her wins! Christian gives us the rundown of the film festival. We detour into best networking practices, bringing something to offer. Then Christian gives us an update about her new distribution agreement. DocuView Déjà Vu: Class Action Park: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11015214/ Before the Flood: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5929776/

]]>Today we’re joined by just Christian and Jason, Christian’s back from Reims, France. We discuss Josh’s middle initial, Christian’s visit to the Red Movie Awards, and her wins! Christian gives us the rundown of the film festival. We detour into best networking practices, bringing something to offer. Then Christian gives us an update about her new distribution agreement. DocuView Déjà Vu: Class Action Park: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11015214/ Before the Flood: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5929776/

]]>a572818a-ff24-4c8c-932b-10a76a37338fFri, 20 May 2022 00:55:00 -050036:34falsefull167167Episode 166 | Reviewing a Bit of Our HistoryEpisode 166 | Reviewing a Bit of Our HistoryThis week Christian traveled to Reims, France for the RED Movie Awards (Reims Excellence Director) annual ceremony, and met with local special guests, Dany and Flo, to reminisce about the events that got them to where they are now.

Bar of June 6 Website: https://bardu6juin.eatbu.com/?lang=en

FB Page: https://www.facebook.com/Bardu6juinEpicerielaMadeleine

]]>This week Christian traveled to Reims, France for the RED Movie Awards (Reims Excellence Director) annual ceremony, and met with local special guests, Dany and Flo, to reminisce about the events that got them to where they are now.

Bar of June 6 Website: https://bardu6juin.eatbu.com/?lang=en

FB Page: https://www.facebook.com/Bardu6juinEpicerielaMadeleine

]]>2c2aee9e-f72c-4037-8b8d-03fe3e0e11acThu, 12 May 2022 13:20:00 -050037:44falsefull166166Episode 165 | Distributor D-Day and Good News!Episode 165 | Distributor D-Day and Good News!Today is the final episode in our limited series about distribution, where we reveal the name of Christian’s distributor!

We talk through distributor woes, Panera woes, new distributor agreements, contracts, and updates about Cannes Film Market.

The film is now available for streaming and DVD on the film’s website: https://thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/

Christian then gives us an update about her time at the Julien Dubuque International Film Festival, a film made at the festival, and what’s next!

JaxandChawn on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jaxandchawn/?hl=en

Jason Rugg on Twitter: https://twitter.com/jaseruggy

The Movie Proposal Podcast: https://themovieproposal.libsyn.com/

DocuView Déjà Vu:

Block Buster Podcast: https://www.getblockbuster.com/

We Didn't Start the Fire: The History Podcast: ‎https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/we-didnt-start-the-fire-the-history-podcast/id1549243765

The Automat: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4554690/reference/

]]>Today is the final episode in our limited series about distribution, where we reveal the name of Christian’s distributor!

We talk through distributor woes, Panera woes, new distributor agreements, contracts, and updates about Cannes Film Market.

The film is now available for streaming and DVD on the film’s website: https://thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/

Christian then gives us an update about her time at the Julien Dubuque International Film Festival, a film made at the festival, and what’s next!

JaxandChawn on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jaxandchawn/?hl=en

Jason Rugg on Twitter: https://twitter.com/jaseruggy

The Movie Proposal Podcast: https://themovieproposal.libsyn.com/

DocuView Déjà Vu:

Block Buster Podcast: https://www.getblockbuster.com/

We Didn't Start the Fire: The History Podcast: ‎https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/we-didnt-start-the-fire-the-history-podcast/id1549243765

The Automat: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4554690/reference/

]]>85e693f9-383c-4d6f-830d-188e99f65c32Thu, 05 May 2022 08:32:00 -050044:45falsefull165165Episode 164 | Distribution Discovery #3Episode 164 | Distribution Discovery #3Listen to our final episode to our 3-part series on distribution, but first, Christian gives an update on Grueling Glory from Dubuque, IA! Next, she shares victories in gaining self-distribution and informs why paying attention to the fine print matters.

DocuView Déjà Vu:

Hoop Dreams https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110057/

America to Me (Oak Park episode) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7768836/

Every Frame a Painting https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjFqcJQXGZ6T6sxyFB-5i6A

Robert's Village https://www.brianbussvideo.com/tulibumu-sub

]]>Listen to our final episode to our 3-part series on distribution, but first, Christian gives an update on Grueling Glory from Dubuque, IA! Next, she shares victories in gaining self-distribution and informs why paying attention to the fine print matters.

DocuView Déjà Vu:

Hoop Dreams https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110057/

America to Me (Oak Park episode) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7768836/

Every Frame a Painting https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjFqcJQXGZ6T6sxyFB-5i6A

Robert's Village https://www.brianbussvideo.com/tulibumu-sub

]]>7a727df3-192a-4b0d-9894-952af4360b16Thu, 28 Apr 2022 06:53:00 -050050:19falsefull164164Episode 163 | Distribution Discovery #2Episode 163 | Distribution Discovery #2It’s part 2 of our series on cutting ties with the Girl Who Wore Freedom’s Distributor! We get an ongoing update about the film, European distribution and how Christian got into her relationship with her distributor.

DocuView Déjà Vu: Three Identical Strangers: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7664504/ The Inventor: Out for Blood in Silicon Valley: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8488126/ Wild Wild Country: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7768848/

]]>It’s part 2 of our series on cutting ties with the Girl Who Wore Freedom’s Distributor! We get an ongoing update about the film, European distribution and how Christian got into her relationship with her distributor.

DocuView Déjà Vu: Three Identical Strangers: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7664504/ The Inventor: Out for Blood in Silicon Valley: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8488126/ Wild Wild Country: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7768848/

]]>5e700e19-72ec-4ffe-ac8e-475c984b5c18Wed, 20 Apr 2022 19:27:00 -050039:06falsefull163163Episode 162 | Distribution Discovery #1Episode 162 | Distribution Discovery #1Today is the start of a new limited series of Podcasts about Distribution, expanding upon what we discussed in last week’s episode.

We get some updates about upcoming festivals, showings of the film and some unexpected technical hurdles.

We talk through the factors that went into the distribution deal coming to an end.

DocuView Déjà Vu: The Wolfpack: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2415458 The Go-Go’s: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11394468 Blackfish: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2545118

]]>Today is the start of a new limited series of Podcasts about Distribution, expanding upon what we discussed in last week’s episode.

We get some updates about upcoming festivals, showings of the film and some unexpected technical hurdles.

We talk through the factors that went into the distribution deal coming to an end.

DocuView Déjà Vu: The Wolfpack: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2415458 The Go-Go’s: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11394468 Blackfish: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2545118

]]>f6e0bac7-ff74-40eb-bdf0-6e27edbe9f19Thu, 14 Apr 2022 05:26:00 -050049:10falsefull162162My Distributor Stopped Paying, So I Ended the DealMy Distributor Stopped Paying, So I Ended the DealToday Christian gives us an update about "Grueling Glory", film festivals, and then we dive into a major update about the distribution of the film.

Then we get some updates about the "Brave Dutch", and then we dig into a very disappointing development for "The Girl Who Wore Freedom".

]]>Today Christian gives us an update about "Grueling Glory", film festivals, and then we dive into a major update about the distribution of the film.

Then we get some updates about the "Brave Dutch", and then we dig into a very disappointing development for "The Girl Who Wore Freedom".

]]>e7c9dac0-d7ad-4efe-a2fd-e69bd8e9b574Thu, 07 Apr 2022 14:56:00 -050017:50falsefull161161Episode 160 | Voice Over Acting in Film - Actor's Point of ViewEpisode 160 | Voice Over Acting in Film - Actor's Point of ViewToday we talk through SRT files for films, the hurdles of working internationally with multiple companies, Dual Mono audio vs Stereo, airborne school, writing the next thing, and then dig into VO work.

We talk through equipment, getting started in the industry, practicing, and getting an agent.

https://voatlanta.me/

DocuView Déjà Vu - The Alpinist: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11790780/ The Miles Davis Story: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0319862/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0 Super Size Me: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0390521/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0

]]>Today we talk through SRT files for films, the hurdles of working internationally with multiple companies, Dual Mono audio vs Stereo, airborne school, writing the next thing, and then dig into VO work.

We talk through equipment, getting started in the industry, practicing, and getting an agent.

https://voatlanta.me/

DocuView Déjà Vu - The Alpinist: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11790780/ The Miles Davis Story: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0319862/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0 Super Size Me: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0390521/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0

]]>454078b3-f67f-426e-a3ab-92174ae469c7Thu, 31 Mar 2022 06:42:00 -050044:37falsefull160160Episode 159 | Cinematography Conversations - The Camera DepartmentEpisode 159 | Cinematography Conversations - The Camera DepartmentToday we’re joined by Mindy Cook! We talk through the process of making a DCP file, getting it shipped to location for showing the film, backup plans, and traveling to France.

Then we dive into some of our favorite cinematography choices in film and television shows.

Mindy digs into the nitty gritty of what it means to be in the camera department on films, budgets, and equipment.

DocuView Déjà Vu- "Inside Job": https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1645089/ "Blowin’ Up": https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6828722/?ref_=fn_al_tt_2 "My Octopus Teacher": https://www.imdb.com/title/tt12888462/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0 "Won’t You Be My Neighbor?": https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7681902/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0

]]>Today we’re joined by Mindy Cook! We talk through the process of making a DCP file, getting it shipped to location for showing the film, backup plans, and traveling to France.

Then we dive into some of our favorite cinematography choices in film and television shows.

Mindy digs into the nitty gritty of what it means to be in the camera department on films, budgets, and equipment.

DocuView Déjà Vu- "Inside Job": https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1645089/ "Blowin’ Up": https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6828722/?ref_=fn_al_tt_2 "My Octopus Teacher": https://www.imdb.com/title/tt12888462/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0 "Won’t You Be My Neighbor?": https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7681902/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0

]]>dec09561-a122-4c81-8a90-a30ab2170c4fThu, 24 Mar 2022 05:40:00 -050055:22falsefull159159Episode 158 | Doc First Updates with Mindy and ChristianEpisode 158 | Doc First Updates with Mindy and ChristianMindy returns to talk shop behind producer-type work including finding a graphic designer, recruiting, and gathering support. Also, we learn Doc First's short, "Grueling Glory", got into Top 6 at Julien Dubuque Film Festival! Keep listening to hear how we connected a WWII veteran, Richard C. Rung, to being recognized for his efforts in Normandy. DocuView Déjà Vu- "Formula 1: Drive to Survive": https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8289930/ "Generation Wealth": https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5268348/ "The Kingmaker": https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5105734/

]]>Mindy returns to talk shop behind producer-type work including finding a graphic designer, recruiting, and gathering support. Also, we learn Doc First's short, "Grueling Glory", got into Top 6 at Julien Dubuque Film Festival! Keep listening to hear how we connected a WWII veteran, Richard C. Rung, to being recognized for his efforts in Normandy. DocuView Déjà Vu- "Formula 1: Drive to Survive": https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8289930/ "Generation Wealth": https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5268348/ "The Kingmaker": https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5105734/

]]>e4bd6aef-a441-4091-a49e-19e57d2a8a2fThu, 17 Mar 2022 07:38:00 -050033:26falsefull158158Episode 157 | Chatting Cinematography with Mindy CookEpisode 157 | Chatting Cinematography with Mindy CookToday we’re joined by Mindy Cook, a cinematographer, to talk cinematography!

But first, some updates about festivals, acceptances into film festivals, new places to watch The Girl Who Wore Freedom and then dive into some Patreon updates!

Then Mindy and Christian dig into Cinematographers, what Christian looks for in those team members, what a cinematographer’s relationship with the director is.

Team Deakins: https://teamdeakins.libsyn.com/ Wandering DP: http://wanderingdp.com/ Filmmakers Academy Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/filmmakers-academy-podcast/id1382924546 DocuView Déjà Vu- Jiro Dreams of Sushi: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1772925/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0 Born to Play: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt12615654/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0 Worst Roommate Ever: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8323702/

]]>Today we’re joined by Mindy Cook, a cinematographer, to talk cinematography!

But first, some updates about festivals, acceptances into film festivals, new places to watch The Girl Who Wore Freedom and then dive into some Patreon updates!

Then Mindy and Christian dig into Cinematographers, what Christian looks for in those team members, what a cinematographer’s relationship with the director is.

Team Deakins: https://teamdeakins.libsyn.com/ Wandering DP: http://wanderingdp.com/ Filmmakers Academy Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/filmmakers-academy-podcast/id1382924546 DocuView Déjà Vu- Jiro Dreams of Sushi: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1772925/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0 Born to Play: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt12615654/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0 Worst Roommate Ever: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8323702/

]]>f3065cfc-08a5-42dc-8969-52374d6d131bThu, 10 Mar 2022 08:30:00 -060055:41falsefull157157Episode 156 | Ever Changing Landscape of EntertainmentEpisode 156 | Ever Changing Landscape of EntertainmentChristian’s back from some state-side travel, she recaps her trip, then we dive into some sad news, and some good news! Netflix delivers their verdict, we talk through next steps with AVOD (Advertising-based Video on Demand) streamers, airbus, and some special events after. Then we dive into "The Brave Dutch", people passing on the pitch, and what’s next.

My Darling Vivian: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7432980/ Generation Hustle: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11210524/

]]>Christian’s back from some state-side travel, she recaps her trip, then we dive into some sad news, and some good news! Netflix delivers their verdict, we talk through next steps with AVOD (Advertising-based Video on Demand) streamers, airbus, and some special events after. Then we dive into "The Brave Dutch", people passing on the pitch, and what’s next.

My Darling Vivian: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7432980/ Generation Hustle: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11210524/

]]>8f00862d-1b80-4da0-9015-54766aaab21dThu, 03 Mar 2022 08:02:00 -060040:27falsefull156156A D-Day Sailor, a WWII Museum and a Road TripA D-Day Sailor, a WWII Museum and a Road TripWhat does it take to bring a D-Day documentary home to Normandy?

In early 2022, The Girl Who Wore Freedom was headed back to Normandy for screenings around the D-Day anniversary, and director Christian Taylor was on the road across the American South with Normandy guides Thomas Voisin and Flavie Poisson. This solo update follows that road trip, from her hometown of Laurel, Mississippi, to the National WWII Museum in New Orleans and on to Nashville.

In Episode 155 of Documentary First, Christian gives a quick update on her own while everyone else is away. At the National WWII Museum, a full day of meetings turns into an idea for a Girl Who Wore Freedom tour of the places in the film. She talks about the less glamorous side of running a film business, from taxes and a new bookkeeper to finishing a dual-language DCP, and lays out the June 2022 screening schedule in Carentan and Sainte-Marie-du-Mont.

She also shares a conversation with Donnie Edwards of the Best Defense Foundation, the former NFL linebacker who takes World War II veterans back to Normandy, plans to film a sizzle reel for the Carentan project, a coming DVD run, and a New York City screening with the Alliance Française. Near the end, Flo Plana records the story of a D-Day sailor who spent two months off Omaha Beach, and Christian explains how the DocuView Deja View segment got its name before sharing a Bob Ross documentary.

WATCH THE FILM: The Girl Who Wore Freedom is on Amazon, Apple TV, YouTube and Fandango at Home in the US, and streaming worldwide in English and French.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How a visit to the National WWII Museum led to the idea of a Girl Who Wore Freedom tour
  • Why running a documentary means running a business, taxes included
  • Why the new dual-language DCP had to be tested in Normandy before the screenings
  • How a D-Day anniversary screening schedule comes together in Carentan
  • How the Best Defense Foundation raises money to take World War II veterans back
  • What goes into planning a sizzle reel: reenactments, sit-down and walking interviews
  • The plan to make DVDs and sell them at events
  • How the DocuView Deja View segment got its name

CHAPTERS

0:00 Laurel, New Orleans and the WWII Museum

3:52 Taxes, a DCP and June Screenings

6:03 Donnie Edwards and a Carentan Sizzle Reel

8:16 Gulf Shores, Nashville and New York

11:15 A D-Day Sailor and DocuView Deja View

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Is there a tour of the places in The Girl Who Wore Freedom?

In this February 2022 episode, Christian Taylor says the National WWII Museum in New Orleans, which runs World War II tours in Normandy and across Europe, talked with her about partnering on a Girl Who Wore Freedom tour focused on the places in the documentary. She says viewers had been asking to visit those places, and the idea was still being explored at the time.

What does the Best Defense Foundation do?

Christian Taylor talks with Donnie Edwards of the Best Defense Foundation, a former NFL linebacker who played for the Kansas City Chiefs and the Chargers. She says he raises money to take World War II veterans back, had taken about 60 veterans to Pearl Harbor that December, and would probably take 30 or 40 more to Normandy. He wanted to help more people see The Girl Who Wore Freedom.

Why is the segment called DocuView Deja View?

Christian Taylor explains that the documentary picks segment was first named Deja Vu DocuView, a title she calls terrible. When she listened back to the jingle Jeff and Jason Hoban made for it, it said DocuView Deja Vu instead, so she said the segment needed renaming to match and asked listeners what they thought. Today the segment is spelled DocuView Deja View.

DOCUVIEW DEJA VIEW PICKS

Christian's pick: Bob Ross: Happy Accidents, Betrayal & Greed (2021), directed by Joshua Rofé for Netflix.

Need a doc for date night? Browse every guest pick on our DocuView Deja View page.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/4a8036

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn

ABOUT THE FILM

The Girl Who Wore Freedom tells the story of D-Day and the liberation of Normandy through the eyes of the French civilians who lived it. Directed by Christian Taylor, it has won more than 25 international awards.

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>What does it take to bring a D-Day documentary home to Normandy?

In early 2022, The Girl Who Wore Freedom was headed back to Normandy for screenings around the D-Day anniversary, and director Christian Taylor was on the road across the American South with Normandy guides Thomas Voisin and Flavie Poisson. This solo update follows that road trip, from her hometown of Laurel, Mississippi, to the National WWII Museum in New Orleans and on to Nashville.

In Episode 155 of Documentary First, Christian gives a quick update on her own while everyone else is away. At the National WWII Museum, a full day of meetings turns into an idea for a Girl Who Wore Freedom tour of the places in the film. She talks about the less glamorous side of running a film business, from taxes and a new bookkeeper to finishing a dual-language DCP, and lays out the June 2022 screening schedule in Carentan and Sainte-Marie-du-Mont.

She also shares a conversation with Donnie Edwards of the Best Defense Foundation, the former NFL linebacker who takes World War II veterans back to Normandy, plans to film a sizzle reel for the Carentan project, a coming DVD run, and a New York City screening with the Alliance Française. Near the end, Flo Plana records the story of a D-Day sailor who spent two months off Omaha Beach, and Christian explains how the DocuView Deja View segment got its name before sharing a Bob Ross documentary.

WATCH THE FILM: The Girl Who Wore Freedom is on Amazon, Apple TV, YouTube and Fandango at Home in the US, and streaming worldwide in English and French.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How a visit to the National WWII Museum led to the idea of a Girl Who Wore Freedom tour
  • Why running a documentary means running a business, taxes included
  • Why the new dual-language DCP had to be tested in Normandy before the screenings
  • How a D-Day anniversary screening schedule comes together in Carentan
  • How the Best Defense Foundation raises money to take World War II veterans back
  • What goes into planning a sizzle reel: reenactments, sit-down and walking interviews
  • The plan to make DVDs and sell them at events
  • How the DocuView Deja View segment got its name

CHAPTERS

0:00 Laurel, New Orleans and the WWII Museum

3:52 Taxes, a DCP and June Screenings

6:03 Donnie Edwards and a Carentan Sizzle Reel

8:16 Gulf Shores, Nashville and New York

11:15 A D-Day Sailor and DocuView Deja View

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Is there a tour of the places in The Girl Who Wore Freedom?

In this February 2022 episode, Christian Taylor says the National WWII Museum in New Orleans, which runs World War II tours in Normandy and across Europe, talked with her about partnering on a Girl Who Wore Freedom tour focused on the places in the documentary. She says viewers had been asking to visit those places, and the idea was still being explored at the time.

What does the Best Defense Foundation do?

Christian Taylor talks with Donnie Edwards of the Best Defense Foundation, a former NFL linebacker who played for the Kansas City Chiefs and the Chargers. She says he raises money to take World War II veterans back, had taken about 60 veterans to Pearl Harbor that December, and would probably take 30 or 40 more to Normandy. He wanted to help more people see The Girl Who Wore Freedom.

Why is the segment called DocuView Deja View?

Christian Taylor explains that the documentary picks segment was first named Deja Vu DocuView, a title she calls terrible. When she listened back to the jingle Jeff and Jason Hoban made for it, it said DocuView Deja Vu instead, so she said the segment needed renaming to match and asked listeners what they thought. Today the segment is spelled DocuView Deja View.

DOCUVIEW DEJA VIEW PICKS

Christian's pick: Bob Ross: Happy Accidents, Betrayal & Greed (2021), directed by Joshua Rofé for Netflix.

Need a doc for date night? Browse every guest pick on our DocuView Deja View page.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/4a8036

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn

ABOUT THE FILM

The Girl Who Wore Freedom tells the story of D-Day and the liberation of Normandy through the eyes of the French civilians who lived it. Directed by Christian Taylor, it has won more than 25 international awards.

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>9536e377-53df-486a-9fb8-195279b1ece2Thu, 24 Feb 2022 15:01:00 -060016:14falsefull155155Episode 154 | On the Road Again and Revising the Film... AGAIN?!Episode 154 | On the Road Again and Revising the Film... AGAIN?!Thomas Neighbour and Flavie Bass of NormandyDiscoveryTours.com, jump on the podcast from Jackson, MS! Christian shares about translating the movie into French for a Normandy film festival and how Thomas tried out voiceover. Stay tuned til' to the end to hear Jeff Kurtenacker, our composer's, new ditty for "DocuView DejaView".

A French Village https://www.amazon.com/A-French-Village-English-subtitled/dp/B01BPRD9EU

]]>Thomas Neighbour and Flavie Bass of NormandyDiscoveryTours.com, jump on the podcast from Jackson, MS! Christian shares about translating the movie into French for a Normandy film festival and how Thomas tried out voiceover. Stay tuned til' to the end to hear Jeff Kurtenacker, our composer's, new ditty for "DocuView DejaView".

A French Village https://www.amazon.com/A-French-Village-English-subtitled/dp/B01BPRD9EU

]]>f938f3f5-124c-4b90-9523-8dd6368b39d1Thu, 17 Feb 2022 07:18:00 -060029:07falsefull154154Episode 153 | FLIC Round-Up, TGWWF Update and DocuView Deja ViewEpisode 153 | FLIC Round-Up, TGWWF Update and DocuView Deja ViewIt's a snow day, and Christian's back from Montana for the Flathead Lake Film Festival. She gives us an update on the trip, the Miracle of America Museum, and Mission Mountain.

Feeling Through https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1CqzntEZZ8

Accessible Outdoors https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOw2_Zy9-tw

Five Came Back https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6587094/

Thin Blue Line https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096257/

Pandas https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7860270/

Your Friend, Ranger Doug https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=887Ot0QI688

]]>It's a snow day, and Christian's back from Montana for the Flathead Lake Film Festival. She gives us an update on the trip, the Miracle of America Museum, and Mission Mountain.

Feeling Through https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1CqzntEZZ8

Accessible Outdoors https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOw2_Zy9-tw

Five Came Back https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6587094/

Thin Blue Line https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096257/

Pandas https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7860270/

Your Friend, Ranger Doug https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=887Ot0QI688

]]>5a6c50df-4c85-4d56-a3f3-28bed34ee1beWed, 09 Feb 2022 23:11:00 -060052:02falsefull153153Episode 152 | Rejection and ReflectionsEpisode 152 | Rejection and ReflectionsChristian talks about people reaching out to her asking for help/advice for their first documentary. Then we get an update on the sub-distribution of The Girl Who Wore Freedom, including some crushing news.

We talk about the changing environment of streaming, distribution, different channels, and the way the industry has shifted in the last few years.

Then we dive deep into podcast space, understanding advertisers, sponsorships, affiliate links, and how to make money.

Dejavu DocuView:

The Rescue: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt9098872/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0 Launch, the podcast: ‎https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/launch/id1319436103 Clive Davis: The Soundtrack of Our Lives: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6494358/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0

]]>Christian talks about people reaching out to her asking for help/advice for their first documentary. Then we get an update on the sub-distribution of The Girl Who Wore Freedom, including some crushing news.

We talk about the changing environment of streaming, distribution, different channels, and the way the industry has shifted in the last few years.

Then we dive deep into podcast space, understanding advertisers, sponsorships, affiliate links, and how to make money.

Dejavu DocuView:

The Rescue: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt9098872/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0 Launch, the podcast: ‎https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/launch/id1319436103 Clive Davis: The Soundtrack of Our Lives: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6494358/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0

]]>9d8cd37e-7b6e-4b2b-8be8-b3d1b8c39828Thu, 03 Feb 2022 08:16:00 -060049:57falsefull152152Episode 151 | More Festivals, Sizzle Reel Requirements, and DocuView Deja ViewEpisode 151 | More Festivals, Sizzle Reel Requirements, and DocuView Deja ViewThe crew’s back together, Christian gives us an update about Documentary First Productions! "Grueling Glory" will be showing at the Flathead Lake International Cinemafest, possibly showing The Girl Who Wore Freedom again. TGWWF has been nominated for several awards at the Red Movie Awards, which qualifies as their French Premiere! Then we talk through the new sizzle reel Christian will be shooting while over in France. Writing the sizzle reel, outlining it, figuring out the first episode of the show, and expanding the series.

We talk through some of Christian’s other documentary ideas and projects and pivot to international distribution.

Deja-vu DocuView:

My Date with Drew: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0378407/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0

McMillions: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt9148598/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0

Fyre: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt9412098/

Fyre Fraud: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7843600/

]]>The crew’s back together, Christian gives us an update about Documentary First Productions! "Grueling Glory" will be showing at the Flathead Lake International Cinemafest, possibly showing The Girl Who Wore Freedom again. TGWWF has been nominated for several awards at the Red Movie Awards, which qualifies as their French Premiere! Then we talk through the new sizzle reel Christian will be shooting while over in France. Writing the sizzle reel, outlining it, figuring out the first episode of the show, and expanding the series.

We talk through some of Christian’s other documentary ideas and projects and pivot to international distribution.

Deja-vu DocuView:

My Date with Drew: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0378407/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0

McMillions: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt9148598/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0

Fyre: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt9412098/

Fyre Fraud: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7843600/

]]>54d5973a-7b2a-4673-9eaf-3aafbe2162ddThu, 27 Jan 2022 09:16:00 -060036:57falsefull151151Episode 150 | Production Team Talk for Grueling GloryEpisode 150 | Production Team Talk for Grueling GloryListen to Jeff Kurtenacker, Composer, and Jason Hoban, Sound Engineer talk about their work on "Grueling Glory | The March to Carentan" Documentary First's 9-minute short film. The film is nominated for Best Documentary Short at Flathead Lake International Cinemafest in Polson, Montana, happening January 28-30, 2022.

Christian Taylor's recommendations:

・"Sinatra: All or Nothing at All" http://www.jigsawprods.com/sinatra-all-or-nothing-at-all/ ・"The Go-Go's" https://www.sho.com/titles/3463368/the-go-gos ・"My Date With Drew" https://www.amazon.com/My-Date-Drew-Barrymore/dp/B07M5J1C2Y Josh Lindsay's recommendations:

・"Landscapers" https://www.hbo.com/landscapers Jason Hoban's recommendations:

・"The Beatles: Get Back" https://www.disneyplus.com/en-gb/series/the-beatles-get-back/7DcWEeWVqrkE Jeff Kurtenacker's recommendations:

・"McCartney 3,2,1" https://www.paulmccartney.com/news-blogs/hulu-and-paul-mccartney-come-together-for-original-documentary-music-series-event ・"Muscle Shoals" https://dogwoof.com/muscleshoals ・"Jagged" https://www.hbo.com/movies/music-box-jagged ・"Worth" https://www.netflix.com/title/80226212 ・"McMillions" https://www.hbo.com/mcmillions

]]>Listen to Jeff Kurtenacker, Composer, and Jason Hoban, Sound Engineer talk about their work on "Grueling Glory | The March to Carentan" Documentary First's 9-minute short film. The film is nominated for Best Documentary Short at Flathead Lake International Cinemafest in Polson, Montana, happening January 28-30, 2022.

Christian Taylor's recommendations:

・"Sinatra: All or Nothing at All" http://www.jigsawprods.com/sinatra-all-or-nothing-at-all/ ・"The Go-Go's" https://www.sho.com/titles/3463368/the-go-gos ・"My Date With Drew" https://www.amazon.com/My-Date-Drew-Barrymore/dp/B07M5J1C2Y Josh Lindsay's recommendations:

・"Landscapers" https://www.hbo.com/landscapers Jason Hoban's recommendations:

・"The Beatles: Get Back" https://www.disneyplus.com/en-gb/series/the-beatles-get-back/7DcWEeWVqrkE Jeff Kurtenacker's recommendations:

・"McCartney 3,2,1" https://www.paulmccartney.com/news-blogs/hulu-and-paul-mccartney-come-together-for-original-documentary-music-series-event ・"Muscle Shoals" https://dogwoof.com/muscleshoals ・"Jagged" https://www.hbo.com/movies/music-box-jagged ・"Worth" https://www.netflix.com/title/80226212 ・"McMillions" https://www.hbo.com/mcmillions

]]>e0483820-79fe-467a-8bad-f708cd0d6639Thu, 27 Jan 2022 09:14:00 -060046:41falsefull150150Episode 149 | Our New Short "Grueling Glory", Michèle PhoenixEpisode 149 | Our New Short "Grueling Glory", Michèle PhoenixToday we're joined by Michèle Phoenix, we talk through Grueling Glory, how it happened, and what the experience has been like.

Christian talks through some rejections, some film festival updates, and the other projects.

Mentioned on the podcast: "Radium Girls" Movie https://www.netflix.com/title/81059876 "Fragments of Light" Book Trailer (Jeff Kurtenacker composed the accompaniment) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl3jwCMgB_I "ALBERT - An Encounter in Normandy" Michèle's Video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuI0WJ_I2Ao "Bathtubs Over Broadway" Documentary https://www.bathtubsoverbroadway.com/ "The Movie Business Book" Textbook https://www.routledge.com/The-Movie-Business-Book/Squire/p/book/9781138656291

Check out Michèle Phoenix's website: https://michelephoenix.com/ & Buy her book: https://michelephoenix.com/fragments-of-light/

]]>Today we're joined by Michèle Phoenix, we talk through Grueling Glory, how it happened, and what the experience has been like.

Christian talks through some rejections, some film festival updates, and the other projects.

Mentioned on the podcast: "Radium Girls" Movie https://www.netflix.com/title/81059876 "Fragments of Light" Book Trailer (Jeff Kurtenacker composed the accompaniment) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl3jwCMgB_I "ALBERT - An Encounter in Normandy" Michèle's Video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuI0WJ_I2Ao "Bathtubs Over Broadway" Documentary https://www.bathtubsoverbroadway.com/ "The Movie Business Book" Textbook https://www.routledge.com/The-Movie-Business-Book/Squire/p/book/9781138656291

Check out Michèle Phoenix's website: https://michelephoenix.com/ & Buy her book: https://michelephoenix.com/fragments-of-light/

]]>53b81a25-b58f-4647-bef1-1697ff5857c8Thu, 13 Jan 2022 06:32:00 -060045:06falsefull149149Episode 148 | How Covid Has Changed the Film IndustryEpisode 148 | How Covid Has Changed the Film IndustryEmmy Award winning producer, published author, and returning Documentary First guest, Sandy Gordon, walks through Covid safety protocols in the film industry.

]]>Emmy Award winning producer, published author, and returning Documentary First guest, Sandy Gordon, walks through Covid safety protocols in the film industry.

]]>e5219a1e-ff0a-49b7-86cb-50f6cc90157eThu, 06 Jan 2022 04:33:00 -060053:31falsefull148148Episode 146 | Doc Podcasting "Why and How?"Episode 146 | Doc Podcasting "Why and How?"Where do podcasts come from? This week we engage in the ins and outs of finding your voice through podcasting. The struggles, the joys, and the technical bumps along the way are all about the process.

]]>Where do podcasts come from? This week we engage in the ins and outs of finding your voice through podcasting. The struggles, the joys, and the technical bumps along the way are all about the process.

]]>e1d36cbf-8fbc-4576-a3e6-ac4fe29699f7Thu, 23 Dec 2021 06:37:00 -060049:11falsefull146146Episode 144 | Festival Deep Dive and Company UpdateEpisode 144 | Festival Deep Dive and Company UpdateOn this episode, we’re talking through Christian’s movies/series pitches, where they’ve been pitched and some updates about the film.

We talk through Flickfair, their film festival and how Christian discovered them. Then we talk through rebranding and Patreon, which you can support us at here: https://www.patreon.com/DocFirstPodcast

]]>On this episode, we’re talking through Christian’s movies/series pitches, where they’ve been pitched and some updates about the film.

We talk through Flickfair, their film festival and how Christian discovered them. Then we talk through rebranding and Patreon, which you can support us at here: https://www.patreon.com/DocFirstPodcast

]]>ddc307b6-9c94-434a-bbe5-ca701957e405Wed, 08 Dec 2021 16:12:00 -060036:00falsefull144144Episode 143 | Plan, Prepare, PersevereEpisode 143 | Plan, Prepare, PersevereToday we’re joined by James Mason, the new Director of Living Stories. We talk through what that means, why and what they’re doing, and how things are changing within the organization.

We talk about Melissa Perkins leaving the team, how Christian could have prepared better, and the implications of a long term project like a documentary.

Then we dive into productivity tools, systems and websites to help put your team on the right track.

]]>Today we’re joined by James Mason, the new Director of Living Stories. We talk through what that means, why and what they’re doing, and how things are changing within the organization.

We talk about Melissa Perkins leaving the team, how Christian could have prepared better, and the implications of a long term project like a documentary.

Then we dive into productivity tools, systems and websites to help put your team on the right track.

]]>c2a775bb-e56f-4bd7-95b0-96655e17fe36Wed, 01 Dec 2021 18:02:00 -060033:00falsefull143143Episode 142 | Working, the Holidays and Giving ThanksEpisode 142 | Working, the Holidays and Giving ThanksWe recollect favorite thanksgiving movies and general thanksgiving. Christian has studio updates and shares future plans with streaming platform, Vudu. We're thankful for all our subscribers and Patreon supporters!

]]>We recollect favorite thanksgiving movies and general thanksgiving. Christian has studio updates and shares future plans with streaming platform, Vudu. We're thankful for all our subscribers and Patreon supporters!

]]>7672132b-6097-413c-b38b-0d0cbd26e69bFri, 26 Nov 2021 07:31:00 -060031:28falsefull142142Episode 141 | Documentarian and the Day JobEpisode 141 | Documentarian and the Day JobToday we’re joined by Mindy Cook, a documentarian cinematographer and “marketing specialist” for the Girl who Wore Freedom.

First we dive into talking about the pitch to Netflix, an upcoming Q&A with members of the film. Then we talk about rejection, keep moving forward.

Then Mindy walks us through how she joined The Girl Who Wore Freedom, documentary filmmaking, and working in the non-profit sector. Mindy praises mentorship and then we discuss film school.

]]>Today we’re joined by Mindy Cook, a documentarian cinematographer and “marketing specialist” for the Girl who Wore Freedom.

First we dive into talking about the pitch to Netflix, an upcoming Q&A with members of the film. Then we talk about rejection, keep moving forward.

Then Mindy walks us through how she joined The Girl Who Wore Freedom, documentary filmmaking, and working in the non-profit sector. Mindy praises mentorship and then we discuss film school.

]]>0a8e97c6-ca16-4f35-b419-46dc6cb344eaWed, 17 Nov 2021 18:00:00 -060055:31falsefull141141Episode 140 | Screenwriting with Zach CallaghanEpisode 140 | Screenwriting with Zach CallaghanToday we’re joined by Zach Callaghan, writer on The Brave Dutch, who previously wrote for The Girl Who Wore Freedom. He goes through the process of screen-writing for film. Christian speaks on leading a team with fresh perspectives and allowing them to add their ingredients to a proverbial "stone soup."

]]>Today we’re joined by Zach Callaghan, writer on The Brave Dutch, who previously wrote for The Girl Who Wore Freedom. He goes through the process of screen-writing for film. Christian speaks on leading a team with fresh perspectives and allowing them to add their ingredients to a proverbial "stone soup."

]]>976e29ab-e725-47f3-9e1b-708f815cb2a2Thu, 11 Nov 2021 07:41:00 -060043:47falsefull140140Episode 139 | Minding the Gap with "Ted Lasso"Episode 139 | Minding the Gap with "Ted Lasso"Today we talk about Ted Lasso, Halloween costumes, and how to deal with the lulls in production.

Christian talks through what she’s working on right now, the prep she’s doing for The Brave Dutch, and partnership proposals with various organizations.

]]>Today we talk about Ted Lasso, Halloween costumes, and how to deal with the lulls in production.

Christian talks through what she’s working on right now, the prep she’s doing for The Brave Dutch, and partnership proposals with various organizations.

]]>100d40b6-69ba-43e7-9417-ddcafb4d6e89Wed, 03 Nov 2021 20:18:00 -050046:04falsefull139139Episode 138 | Post Production Sound with Jason HobanEpisode 138 | Post Production Sound with Jason HobanJason Hoban, sound designer for The Girl Who Wore Freedom and Documentary First Podcast, discusses the art and science behind making audio mixes for film, etc. He has wielded the microphone as a foley artist, and has extensive experience editing audio using Pro Tools. In addition, he shares how he got his start as an audio engineer.

]]>Jason Hoban, sound designer for The Girl Who Wore Freedom and Documentary First Podcast, discusses the art and science behind making audio mixes for film, etc. He has wielded the microphone as a foley artist, and has extensive experience editing audio using Pro Tools. In addition, he shares how he got his start as an audio engineer.

]]>5ebb8aec-8a20-486d-9624-f39774648533Wed, 27 Oct 2021 21:46:00 -050046:09falsefull138138Episode 137 | Screening at Massanutten Military AcademyEpisode 137 | Screening at Massanutten Military AcademyToday we talk about Research and Development, screening the film for cadets, Christian dealing with a heckler, the emotional journey it sent her on, and how it might change her future films.

We talk a little about the future of the podcast, the way production and documentary work intertwine with everything in your life, and boots-on-the-ground research.

Today we talk about Research and Development, screening the film for cadets, Christian dealing with a heckler, the emotional journey it sent her on, and how it might change her future films.

We talk a little about the future of the podcast, the way production and documentary work intertwine with everything in your life, and boots-on-the-ground research.

Mentioned Links: Public Screening Rights: https://guides.uflib.ufl.edu/copyright/video Jason Rugg's @Jaxandchawn Favorites: https://www.instagram.com/p/CTP-yhglu6k/ https://www.instagram.com/p/CTkkTQXl7TS/

]]>Today we talk about Research and Development, screening the film for cadets, Christian dealing with a heckler, the emotional journey it sent her on, and how it might change her future films.

We talk a little about the future of the podcast, the way production and documentary work intertwine with everything in your life, and boots-on-the-ground research.

Today we talk about Research and Development, screening the film for cadets, Christian dealing with a heckler, the emotional journey it sent her on, and how it might change her future films.

We talk a little about the future of the podcast, the way production and documentary work intertwine with everything in your life, and boots-on-the-ground research.

Mentioned Links: Public Screening Rights: https://guides.uflib.ufl.edu/copyright/video Jason Rugg's @Jaxandchawn Favorites: https://www.instagram.com/p/CTP-yhglu6k/ https://www.instagram.com/p/CTkkTQXl7TS/

]]>c7f34fab-7f69-4e8c-b422-5a2c5a78c7dcThu, 21 Oct 2021 14:27:00 -050046:16falsefull137137Episode 136 | The Brave Dutch Pre-Pro Odyssey & Reflection on RestEpisode 136 | The Brave Dutch Pre-Pro Odyssey & Reflection on RestChristian’s back from her Odyssey, we get an update about her trip, the things she learned about. We get a look at how Christian has learned about giving people rest time, including herself. We talk about self-care, then dive into Christian’s great uncle’s journey with the 334th Infantry.

]]>Christian’s back from her Odyssey, we get an update about her trip, the things she learned about. We get a look at how Christian has learned about giving people rest time, including herself. We talk about self-care, then dive into Christian’s great uncle’s journey with the 334th Infantry.

]]>a722206d-7ba4-4a7d-bd42-fcd35762244eWed, 13 Oct 2021 19:40:00 -050026:59falsefull136136Episode 135 | Hope On the Walls and Lunch at the Oranjehotel Sounds Fun..At FirstEpisode 135 | Hope On the Walls and Lunch at the Oranjehotel Sounds Fun..At FirstToday we're joined by TGWWF and The Brave Dutch Co-Producer, Michelle Coupey, Christian's still in the Netherlands and has some updates about The Girl Who Wore Freedom!

Then we dig into the Brave Dutch, Christian's amazing day, learned a bit about Buren, Netherlands (https://www.visitingthedutchcountryside.com/gelderland/one-day-in-buren-netherlands/) and The Brave Dutch Podcast: https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/the-brave-dutch-rhes-low-jr-DfVvMksbz5K/

Christian visited The Oranjehotel internment camp, got to hear the history, the atrocities commited there, and what bits of hope were scrawled into the walls.

The Propaganda Cartoon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8D6d6_-Vngo"

When anyone preaches disunity, tries to pit one of us against the other you know that person seeks to rob us of our freedom and destroy our very lives."

https://www.oranjehotel.org/en/

]]>Today we're joined by TGWWF and The Brave Dutch Co-Producer, Michelle Coupey, Christian's still in the Netherlands and has some updates about The Girl Who Wore Freedom!

Then we dig into the Brave Dutch, Christian's amazing day, learned a bit about Buren, Netherlands (https://www.visitingthedutchcountryside.com/gelderland/one-day-in-buren-netherlands/) and The Brave Dutch Podcast: https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/the-brave-dutch-rhes-low-jr-DfVvMksbz5K/

Christian visited The Oranjehotel internment camp, got to hear the history, the atrocities commited there, and what bits of hope were scrawled into the walls.

The Propaganda Cartoon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8D6d6_-Vngo"

When anyone preaches disunity, tries to pit one of us against the other you know that person seeks to rob us of our freedom and destroy our very lives."

https://www.oranjehotel.org/en/

]]>3bc25e19-59b6-47cc-9dda-07d03c8831bdWed, 06 Oct 2021 20:43:00 -050045:51falsefull135135Episode 134 | Applying Lessons Learned and The Brave Dutch!Episode 134 | Applying Lessons Learned and The Brave Dutch!Josh is finally back, we talk through some updates about the Girl Who Wore Freedom on Delta Air Lines, Christian gives us an update about a future L'Oréal event, and Fort Bragg.

We get an update about Grueling Glory, the short film, it's film festival run, and Christian explains the difference between feature/short film festival submissions.

Christian gives us an overview of the Netherlands' role in World War II, the bombings, the surrender, the resistance. Then we dive into the story of The Brave Dutch.

]]>Josh is finally back, we talk through some updates about the Girl Who Wore Freedom on Delta Air Lines, Christian gives us an update about a future L'Oréal event, and Fort Bragg.

We get an update about Grueling Glory, the short film, it's film festival run, and Christian explains the difference between feature/short film festival submissions.

Christian gives us an overview of the Netherlands' role in World War II, the bombings, the surrender, the resistance. Then we dive into the story of The Brave Dutch.

]]>c32a9b36-eb81-4a0f-8364-0b2323aa082cFri, 01 Oct 2021 04:02:00 -050001:03:21falsefull134134Episode 133 | Special Ops & Spin-Offs (Sort Of)Episode 133 | Special Ops & Spin-Offs (Sort Of)We're joined by Flavie again! Christian is in the Netherlands on a pre-production trip. But first, she shares what parts of France she had the visited on the way, including memorials, museums, and the Pegasus Bridge. This recent trip to Europe involves meeting with her son on a mock special-ops mission called Falcon Leap. They attended the Operation Market Garden ceremonies in the Netherlands and talk about its significance.

]]>We're joined by Flavie again! Christian is in the Netherlands on a pre-production trip. But first, she shares what parts of France she had the visited on the way, including memorials, museums, and the Pegasus Bridge. This recent trip to Europe involves meeting with her son on a mock special-ops mission called Falcon Leap. They attended the Operation Market Garden ceremonies in the Netherlands and talk about its significance.

]]>143ad7da-b3e8-41ea-ba1c-5c0368082110Thu, 23 Sep 2021 07:13:00 -050056:57falsefull133133Episode 132 | Cue The Music Cue Sheet!Episode 132 | Cue The Music Cue Sheet!Jeff and Jason play switcheraoo! After a film update, Christian shares about plans to travel to the Netherlands for a scouting trip for "The Brave Dutch." Then, composer Jeff Kurtenacker explains how he had to name each musical piece in the movie, even if it were the shortest of études. All the details must be recorded on the timeline, including who were the authors and performers; In addition, a demonstration of rights needed to be on the cue sheet.

]]>Jeff and Jason play switcheraoo! After a film update, Christian shares about plans to travel to the Netherlands for a scouting trip for "The Brave Dutch." Then, composer Jeff Kurtenacker explains how he had to name each musical piece in the movie, even if it were the shortest of études. All the details must be recorded on the timeline, including who were the authors and performers; In addition, a demonstration of rights needed to be on the cue sheet.

]]>7b655e9b-dfae-4042-853d-29e3b579cc4dThu, 16 Sep 2021 06:54:00 -050001:02:13falsefull132132Episode 131 | Labor Day Lookback - Oh How Far We've Come!Episode 131 | Labor Day Lookback - Oh How Far We've Come!This week, the podcast team took a break during this past Labor Day so we are reposting a previous episode, but before that, Christian reflects on what was happening a year ago during the recording of "Episode 79: Hunter." A lot can happen in a year, since then, Hunter has completed Navy Officer Candidate School (OCS) in June 2021 and is now in Pensacola, FL for flight school.

]]>This week, the podcast team took a break during this past Labor Day so we are reposting a previous episode, but before that, Christian reflects on what was happening a year ago during the recording of "Episode 79: Hunter." A lot can happen in a year, since then, Hunter has completed Navy Officer Candidate School (OCS) in June 2021 and is now in Pensacola, FL for flight school.

]]>39a1732d-0867-47a2-a29d-54eae0f3320bThu, 09 Sep 2021 06:47:00 -050058:09falsefull131131Episode 130 | Story Moves The Soul & Makes Marketing MeaningfulEpisode 130 | Story Moves The Soul & Makes Marketing MeaningfulMindy got involved on the marketing team for The Girl Who Wore Freedom through listening to The Holy Post podcast. She ran a successful social media campaign with the marketing slogan, "Watch, Rate, Review". Her passion for stories and real-life accounts is what drove her to join the team!

]]>Mindy got involved on the marketing team for The Girl Who Wore Freedom through listening to The Holy Post podcast. She ran a successful social media campaign with the marketing slogan, "Watch, Rate, Review". Her passion for stories and real-life accounts is what drove her to join the team!

]]>d4a6b992-d8d3-4ce5-9dfd-3b5f121c5039Thu, 02 Sep 2021 07:14:00 -050040:28falsefull130130Episode 129 | Interns!Episode 129 | Interns!Christian's finally back home! We're joined by Sam King, the assistant editor of the film, and lead social media editor. Christian gives us a film update, Delta airlines update and some film festival updates!

Then we dive into Sam's story, how he joined the project, what he learned and how the project helped mould his career. The things he learned as he became more and more creative learning how to edit with a director.

Scriptnotes "Notes on Notes" Episode: https://johnaugust.com/2019/notes-on-notes

Jax & Chawn on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jaxandchawn/

]]>Christian's finally back home! We're joined by Sam King, the assistant editor of the film, and lead social media editor. Christian gives us a film update, Delta airlines update and some film festival updates!

Then we dive into Sam's story, how he joined the project, what he learned and how the project helped mould his career. The things he learned as he became more and more creative learning how to edit with a director.

Scriptnotes "Notes on Notes" Episode: https://johnaugust.com/2019/notes-on-notes

Jax & Chawn on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jaxandchawn/

]]>13d777bd-cf73-4da5-bcfb-8e0193b92bf4Thu, 26 Aug 2021 05:27:00 -050046:32falsefull129129Why Nobody Wanted Super Size Me: A Distributor RemembersWhy Nobody Wanted Super Size Me: A Distributor RemembersWhat does it take to say yes to a film everyone else is afraid of?

Super Size Me and We Are Columbine had something in common: nobody wanted them. Joe Amodei took them anyway. In his first visit to the show, the founder of Virgil Films and Entertainment tells how a job at the first video store in the Philadelphia area turned into more than 40 years in film and home entertainment, and why some releases, like Super Size Me and Restrepo, became lifelong experiences for him.

In Episode 128, Jason Rugg hosts with Christian Taylor and Jeff, the composer of The Girl Who Wore Freedom. Joe walks through his career, from fixing sewing machines to buying for a 15-store video chain, to studio jobs at Turner and USA Films, to starting his own company. He tells why the studios passed on Super Size Me, what he said when Netflix first called asking to stream his movies, and why a buyer's no usually has nothing to do with whether your film is good.

Then the conversation turns personal. Joe remembers taking a comedian's USO tour film to wounded soldiers at Walter Reed, the friendship that grew out of Restrepo, and the loss of its co-director Tim Hetherington. He tells about the phone call where he told the producers he wasn't sure he wanted to release We Are Columbine, and what he saw on CNN when he went downstairs for lunch that sent him back to the phone to say yes. Christian shares why she trusted Joe from the start: Donna Reed's daughter, whom she met at a film festival, told her he was "one of the good guys."

Full disclosure: Virgil Films distributes Christian's film The Girl Who Wore Freedom, and it now sponsors Documentary First. This 2021 episode has no sponsor read.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How a job at the first video store in the Philadelphia area started a 40-year career
  • Why the studios and other buyers passed on Super Size Me
  • What Joe told Netflix when it first asked about streaming
  • Why "the film business is mostly bad news," in Joe's words
  • Why a buyer's no usually isn't about quality
  • How many films Virgil buys out of 20 to 25 pitches a week
  • What Restrepo means to the soldiers who lived it
  • How one afternoon changed Joe's mind about We Are Columbine
  • Which genres sell best, and where documentaries rank
  • Why Joe believes movie theaters will survive streaming

CHAPTERS

0:00 Meet Joe Amodei

6:18 First Video Store

10:21 Taking On McDonald's

15:06 An Honest Distributor

18:20 Films for Returning Soldiers

21:52 Restrepo and Tim Hetherington

27:39 We Are Columbine

31:44 Genres, Theaters, Streaming

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Why did nobody want to distribute Super Size Me?

Joe Amodei of Virgil Films told Documentary First in 2021 that nobody wanted Super Size Me, Morgan Spurlock's film about eating nothing but McDonald's for 30 days. The studios didn't want to hamper their Happy Meal deals, and everyone else thought McDonald's would sue. Joe took it anyway. McDonald's never sued, the film was nominated for Best Documentary, and it became his company's first major acquisition.

Why do distributors pass on good films?

Joe Amodei told Documentary First in 2021 that when nobody wants a film, filmmakers assume buyers didn't like it, but most of the time that has nothing to do with it. It has everything to do with budgets, and with whether the buyer already has films with a similar story. After a dozen films about soldiers coming home, buyers told him each new one felt like the same thing.

How many films does a distributor actually buy?

Joe Amodei said on Documentary First in 2021 that Virgil Films gets pitched 20 to 25 movies a week and buys maybe one or two of them. It very rarely happens that a distributor buys seven or eight out of 20. He also said that if he thought buyers wouldn't like a film, it would never have gotten past him in the first place, so a pass from a buyer later isn't a verdict on the film.

Which film genres sell best?

According to Joe Amodei, speaking on Documentary First in 2021, genre films sell best, action first, and a recognizable cast helps. Horror still works. Romantic comedies sit near the bottom, and documentaries sit even below romantic comedies. Streamers like Netflix have separate divisions for each genre, so a distributor with films in several genres needs several meetings.

Listen and Follow

https://pod.fo/e/4a8052

Support the show

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect

All social platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

About the Guest

Joe Amodei has worked in film and home entertainment for more than 40 years. He started at the first video store in the Philadelphia area, worked for Turner Home Entertainment and ran home entertainment for USA Films before founding his own company, which became Virgil Films. Follow Virgil on Instagram and X, and see Joe's own documentary at coldwarinphilly.com.

About Virgil Films

Virgil Films and Entertainment acquires and distributes documentaries, feature films and series. Its releases include Super Size Me, the Oscar-nominated Restrepo, Forks Over Knives, I Am Heath Ledger and I Am Chris Farley. virgilfilms.com

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned


]]>What does it take to say yes to a film everyone else is afraid of?

Super Size Me and We Are Columbine had something in common: nobody wanted them. Joe Amodei took them anyway. In his first visit to the show, the founder of Virgil Films and Entertainment tells how a job at the first video store in the Philadelphia area turned into more than 40 years in film and home entertainment, and why some releases, like Super Size Me and Restrepo, became lifelong experiences for him.

In Episode 128, Jason Rugg hosts with Christian Taylor and Jeff, the composer of The Girl Who Wore Freedom. Joe walks through his career, from fixing sewing machines to buying for a 15-store video chain, to studio jobs at Turner and USA Films, to starting his own company. He tells why the studios passed on Super Size Me, what he said when Netflix first called asking to stream his movies, and why a buyer's no usually has nothing to do with whether your film is good.

Then the conversation turns personal. Joe remembers taking a comedian's USO tour film to wounded soldiers at Walter Reed, the friendship that grew out of Restrepo, and the loss of its co-director Tim Hetherington. He tells about the phone call where he told the producers he wasn't sure he wanted to release We Are Columbine, and what he saw on CNN when he went downstairs for lunch that sent him back to the phone to say yes. Christian shares why she trusted Joe from the start: Donna Reed's daughter, whom she met at a film festival, told her he was "one of the good guys."

Full disclosure: Virgil Films distributes Christian's film The Girl Who Wore Freedom, and it now sponsors Documentary First. This 2021 episode has no sponsor read.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How a job at the first video store in the Philadelphia area started a 40-year career
  • Why the studios and other buyers passed on Super Size Me
  • What Joe told Netflix when it first asked about streaming
  • Why "the film business is mostly bad news," in Joe's words
  • Why a buyer's no usually isn't about quality
  • How many films Virgil buys out of 20 to 25 pitches a week
  • What Restrepo means to the soldiers who lived it
  • How one afternoon changed Joe's mind about We Are Columbine
  • Which genres sell best, and where documentaries rank
  • Why Joe believes movie theaters will survive streaming

CHAPTERS

0:00 Meet Joe Amodei

6:18 First Video Store

10:21 Taking On McDonald's

15:06 An Honest Distributor

18:20 Films for Returning Soldiers

21:52 Restrepo and Tim Hetherington

27:39 We Are Columbine

31:44 Genres, Theaters, Streaming

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Why did nobody want to distribute Super Size Me?

Joe Amodei of Virgil Films told Documentary First in 2021 that nobody wanted Super Size Me, Morgan Spurlock's film about eating nothing but McDonald's for 30 days. The studios didn't want to hamper their Happy Meal deals, and everyone else thought McDonald's would sue. Joe took it anyway. McDonald's never sued, the film was nominated for Best Documentary, and it became his company's first major acquisition.

Why do distributors pass on good films?

Joe Amodei told Documentary First in 2021 that when nobody wants a film, filmmakers assume buyers didn't like it, but most of the time that has nothing to do with it. It has everything to do with budgets, and with whether the buyer already has films with a similar story. After a dozen films about soldiers coming home, buyers told him each new one felt like the same thing.

How many films does a distributor actually buy?

Joe Amodei said on Documentary First in 2021 that Virgil Films gets pitched 20 to 25 movies a week and buys maybe one or two of them. It very rarely happens that a distributor buys seven or eight out of 20. He also said that if he thought buyers wouldn't like a film, it would never have gotten past him in the first place, so a pass from a buyer later isn't a verdict on the film.

Which film genres sell best?

According to Joe Amodei, speaking on Documentary First in 2021, genre films sell best, action first, and a recognizable cast helps. Horror still works. Romantic comedies sit near the bottom, and documentaries sit even below romantic comedies. Streamers like Netflix have separate divisions for each genre, so a distributor with films in several genres needs several meetings.

Listen and Follow

https://pod.fo/e/4a8052

Support the show

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

Connect

All social platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

About the Guest

Joe Amodei has worked in film and home entertainment for more than 40 years. He started at the first video store in the Philadelphia area, worked for Turner Home Entertainment and ran home entertainment for USA Films before founding his own company, which became Virgil Films. Follow Virgil on Instagram and X, and see Joe's own documentary at coldwarinphilly.com.

About Virgil Films

Virgil Films and Entertainment acquires and distributes documentaries, feature films and series. Its releases include Super Size Me, the Oscar-nominated Restrepo, Forks Over Knives, I Am Heath Ledger and I Am Chris Farley. virgilfilms.com

About Documentary First

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

Resources Mentioned


]]>f329a810-e997-481f-9c72-4c987ff0eb28Thu, 19 Aug 2021 06:21:00 -050038:55falsefull128128Episode 127 | Getting Real - Life Impacts WorkEpisode 127 | Getting Real - Life Impacts WorkToday we talk about how life effects work; Check out Jason & Shawn's animation channel on https://www.instagram.com/jaxandchawn/ @JaxandChawn

Christian's been gone from home for 4 weeks, dealing with personal issues involving her father, moving him an hour and a half away, and struggling with progress on the film. Then, we talk through flexibility with volunteers, social media mess ups and mistakes. Being patient is a key part of being creative, but it is also about making moves when you can.

How to get your show greenlit in 3 easy steps by Sara Schaefer: https://twitter.com/saraschaefer1/status/1421622886574395393?s=10

]]>Today we talk about how life effects work; Check out Jason & Shawn's animation channel on https://www.instagram.com/jaxandchawn/ @JaxandChawn

Christian's been gone from home for 4 weeks, dealing with personal issues involving her father, moving him an hour and a half away, and struggling with progress on the film. Then, we talk through flexibility with volunteers, social media mess ups and mistakes. Being patient is a key part of being creative, but it is also about making moves when you can.

How to get your show greenlit in 3 easy steps by Sara Schaefer: https://twitter.com/saraschaefer1/status/1421622886574395393?s=10

]]>24807e2d-5158-467d-b10a-4f3d5964a69bThu, 12 Aug 2021 01:29:00 -050036:30falsefull127127Episode 126 | Sub-distributionEpisode 126 | Sub-distributionUpdate about sub-distribution for TGWWF, Hoopla and Delta Airline are now streaming our film! Christian goes into the details and shares about other potential distribution deals. Then, she speaks on work-life balance.

]]>Update about sub-distribution for TGWWF, Hoopla and Delta Airline are now streaming our film! Christian goes into the details and shares about other potential distribution deals. Then, she speaks on work-life balance.

]]>1e71d7ca-0212-454b-8448-5bfc5974f32cThu, 05 Aug 2021 09:07:00 -050039:57falsefull126126Episode 125 | Filmmaking & Family BalanceEpisode 125 | Filmmaking & Family BalanceToday we dive into Josh's awesome movie-themed-roadtrip, work life balance, and Jason disses Josh.

Christian recaps her accidental crimes and gives an update on the grant, blessings from God, and new members of the board. Then we dig into work life balance, how the film has brought together so many people. Christian opens up some wounds about her family life over the course of the last few years and some recent developments with her family.

]]>Today we dive into Josh's awesome movie-themed-roadtrip, work life balance, and Jason disses Josh.

Christian recaps her accidental crimes and gives an update on the grant, blessings from God, and new members of the board. Then we dig into work life balance, how the film has brought together so many people. Christian opens up some wounds about her family life over the course of the last few years and some recent developments with her family.

]]>3d376abb-e7a1-4d88-ad53-cdff54be7524Wed, 28 Jul 2021 17:00:00 -050042:58falsefull125125Episode 124 | Live and LearnEpisode 124 | Live and LearnToday we discuss some lessons learned, mistakes made, and fees paid.

Christian fills us in on a week of bad luck, misfiled papers and trying not to incur penalties and fees. We talk about connections, growth, the future of "The Brave Dutch" and sub-distribution.

]]>Today we discuss some lessons learned, mistakes made, and fees paid.

Christian fills us in on a week of bad luck, misfiled papers and trying not to incur penalties and fees. We talk about connections, growth, the future of "The Brave Dutch" and sub-distribution.

]]>bf179a1d-f044-40b2-a770-cd3858e88909Thu, 22 Jul 2021 04:11:00 -050029:28falsefull124124Episode 123 | New ProjectsEpisode 123 | New ProjectsFirst, we get updates on the distribution phase of The Girl Who Wore Freedom. Second, Christian reveals two new projects she has underway, "Grueling Glory" and "The Brave Dutch". Finally, the act of gaining story rights, self-funding pre-production tours, and building a team are discussed.

To be added to the DVD pre-sale list, email: christian@normandystories.com

]]>First, we get updates on the distribution phase of The Girl Who Wore Freedom. Second, Christian reveals two new projects she has underway, "Grueling Glory" and "The Brave Dutch". Finally, the act of gaining story rights, self-funding pre-production tours, and building a team are discussed.

To be added to the DVD pre-sale list, email: christian@normandystories.com

]]>fdb93fcf-e4d3-434e-a2fd-c484a65708e2Thu, 15 Jul 2021 06:28:00 -050040:41falsefull123123Episode 122 | Distribution Tips & a Look BackEpisode 122 | Distribution Tips & a Look BackWe’re joined by Jeff Kurtenacker, David Patterson, and Jason comes and goes throughout this episode. We look back on what we’ve learned about distribution, discuss strategies for how to get your film distributed, then recap how Jeff joined the project and how David joined too.

]]>We’re joined by Jeff Kurtenacker, David Patterson, and Jason comes and goes throughout this episode. We look back on what we’ve learned about distribution, discuss strategies for how to get your film distributed, then recap how Jeff joined the project and how David joined too.

]]>cc38a0f5-187f-4100-8e49-e3dafb8317c7Thu, 08 Jul 2021 05:27:00 -050046:07falsefull122122Filmmaker at 81: WWII Veteran George Ciampa's Second ActFilmmaker at 81: WWII Veteran George Ciampa's Second ActWhat does it take to make six documentaries after your 81st birthday, without ever being paid for them?

George Ciampa never planned to be a filmmaker. In 2005, after a yearlong fight to get gates put on the American cemetery at Henri-Chapelle, Belgium, a retired general and a retired colonel asked him whether he had ever thought about taking teachers to Europe to teach them reverence for those cemeteries. George called the assistant superintendent of the Torrance, California, schools his children had attended, recruited four young history teachers, and decided to film the trip. He meant to make one documentary. The emails that came in afterward kept him going for six films over 14 years, all made through his nonprofit, Let Freedom Ring.

In Episode 121, the last of five conversations, Jason Rugg hosts with Christian Taylor, and George, then 96, walks through every one of his films: from Let Freedom Ring: The Lesson Is Priceless, with its teachers and First Division veterans, to They Will Never Forget, about the Dutch and Belgian families who adopt American graves, to D-Day Veterans Return to Normandy: 75 Years Later, filmed in 2019 with nine fellow D-Day veterans. He talks about the German children he met in the army of occupation, the German mayor who says in one of George's films, "You liberated us," and the people with money who never came through. And he gives his advice to filmmakers: be prepared to work your tail off, often for no money, because the payoff is gratification.

The episode opens with Christian's update three weeks after The Girl Who Wore Freedom's June 1, 2021, release, and how hard it is to read the iTunes documentary chart.

George Ciampa died on January 3, 2024, at the age of 98. We are grateful he trusted us with his story.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How George became a documentary filmmaker at 81
  • How a campaign for cemetery gates turned into a trip with four history teachers
  • The stories behind George's six Let Freedom Ring documentaries
  • Why Dutch and Belgian families adopt the graves of American soldiers
  • What German children remembered about American soldiers after the war
  • George's advice to independent filmmakers about money, hard work and purpose

CHAPTERS

0:00 Film Update: Three Weeks on iTunes

2:45 George's Introduction, in His Own Words

5:01 How George Became a Filmmaker at 81

12:27 The Lesson Is Priceless and Memories of France

15:09 The Mighty Eighth and They Will Never Forget

18:24 America's Finest Ambassadors and a Return to Normandy

21:11 George's Advice to Filmmakers

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What documentaries did George Ciampa make?

George Ciampa made six documentaries over 14 years, starting in 2006, through his nonprofit, Let Freedom Ring. They are Let Freedom Ring: The Lesson Is Priceless; Let Freedom Ring: Memories of France; Remembering the Fallen Heroes of the Mighty Eighth; They Will Never Forget; America's Finest Ambassadors: Our Armed Forces; and D-Day Veterans Return to Normandy: 75 Years Later.

How did George Ciampa become a filmmaker?

After a yearlong campaign in 2005 to get gates on the Henri-Chapelle American Cemetery in Belgium, George Ciampa was encouraged to take teachers to Europe. He recruited four young history teachers from high schools in Torrance, California, and decided to film the trip. He meant to make one film, but the response led to five more.

What advice did George Ciampa give independent filmmakers?

George Ciampa's advice: be prepared not to make money, and be prepared to work day and night and weekends. You have to believe in what you're doing, because raising the funds is hard. The payoff, he says, is gratification. Christian Taylor adds: talk to the people in your life early, because a film can consume everything.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/6a83a6

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

George Ciampa

World War II Veteran and Documentary Filmmaker

George Ciampa was born in Boston in 1925 and grew up in Southern California. He served in the 607th Graves Registration Company from Normandy through the Battle of the Bulge to the end of the war, then spent seven months in the army of occupation in Germany. He later worked for the Los Angeles Times. At 81 he began making documentaries about the price of freedom through his nonprofit, Let Freedom Ring, including Let Freedom Ring: The Lesson Is Priceless and Let Freedom Ring: Memories of France, and shared his stories with students in the United States, France and Belgium. He received the French Legion of Honor and the Croix de Guerre. George Ciampa died on January 3, 2024, at the age of 98.

Website: http://www.letfreedomringforall.org

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

THE GEORGE CIAMPA SERIES


RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>What does it take to make six documentaries after your 81st birthday, without ever being paid for them?

George Ciampa never planned to be a filmmaker. In 2005, after a yearlong fight to get gates put on the American cemetery at Henri-Chapelle, Belgium, a retired general and a retired colonel asked him whether he had ever thought about taking teachers to Europe to teach them reverence for those cemeteries. George called the assistant superintendent of the Torrance, California, schools his children had attended, recruited four young history teachers, and decided to film the trip. He meant to make one documentary. The emails that came in afterward kept him going for six films over 14 years, all made through his nonprofit, Let Freedom Ring.

In Episode 121, the last of five conversations, Jason Rugg hosts with Christian Taylor, and George, then 96, walks through every one of his films: from Let Freedom Ring: The Lesson Is Priceless, with its teachers and First Division veterans, to They Will Never Forget, about the Dutch and Belgian families who adopt American graves, to D-Day Veterans Return to Normandy: 75 Years Later, filmed in 2019 with nine fellow D-Day veterans. He talks about the German children he met in the army of occupation, the German mayor who says in one of George's films, "You liberated us," and the people with money who never came through. And he gives his advice to filmmakers: be prepared to work your tail off, often for no money, because the payoff is gratification.

The episode opens with Christian's update three weeks after The Girl Who Wore Freedom's June 1, 2021, release, and how hard it is to read the iTunes documentary chart.

George Ciampa died on January 3, 2024, at the age of 98. We are grateful he trusted us with his story.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How George became a documentary filmmaker at 81
  • How a campaign for cemetery gates turned into a trip with four history teachers
  • The stories behind George's six Let Freedom Ring documentaries
  • Why Dutch and Belgian families adopt the graves of American soldiers
  • What German children remembered about American soldiers after the war
  • George's advice to independent filmmakers about money, hard work and purpose

CHAPTERS

0:00 Film Update: Three Weeks on iTunes

2:45 George's Introduction, in His Own Words

5:01 How George Became a Filmmaker at 81

12:27 The Lesson Is Priceless and Memories of France

15:09 The Mighty Eighth and They Will Never Forget

18:24 America's Finest Ambassadors and a Return to Normandy

21:11 George's Advice to Filmmakers

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What documentaries did George Ciampa make?

George Ciampa made six documentaries over 14 years, starting in 2006, through his nonprofit, Let Freedom Ring. They are Let Freedom Ring: The Lesson Is Priceless; Let Freedom Ring: Memories of France; Remembering the Fallen Heroes of the Mighty Eighth; They Will Never Forget; America's Finest Ambassadors: Our Armed Forces; and D-Day Veterans Return to Normandy: 75 Years Later.

How did George Ciampa become a filmmaker?

After a yearlong campaign in 2005 to get gates on the Henri-Chapelle American Cemetery in Belgium, George Ciampa was encouraged to take teachers to Europe. He recruited four young history teachers from high schools in Torrance, California, and decided to film the trip. He meant to make one film, but the response led to five more.

What advice did George Ciampa give independent filmmakers?

George Ciampa's advice: be prepared not to make money, and be prepared to work day and night and weekends. You have to believe in what you're doing, because raising the funds is hard. The payoff, he says, is gratification. Christian Taylor adds: talk to the people in your life early, because a film can consume everything.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/6a83a6

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

George Ciampa

World War II Veteran and Documentary Filmmaker

George Ciampa was born in Boston in 1925 and grew up in Southern California. He served in the 607th Graves Registration Company from Normandy through the Battle of the Bulge to the end of the war, then spent seven months in the army of occupation in Germany. He later worked for the Los Angeles Times. At 81 he began making documentaries about the price of freedom through his nonprofit, Let Freedom Ring, including Let Freedom Ring: The Lesson Is Priceless and Let Freedom Ring: Memories of France, and shared his stories with students in the United States, France and Belgium. He received the French Legion of Honor and the Croix de Guerre. George Ciampa died on January 3, 2024, at the age of 98.

Website: http://www.letfreedomringforall.org

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

THE GEORGE CIAMPA SERIES


RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>72138bee-cf56-4de9-9138-a08fffbe26bfThu, 01 Jul 2021 05:05:00 -050034:29falsefull121121Margot, Again: George Ciampa and the Fight for a WWII CemeteryMargot, Again: George Ciampa and the Fight for a WWII CemeteryHow does a newspaper ad man end up making documentaries at 81?

George Ciampa spent his working life selling newspaper advertising, first as a salesman and then for 18 years as special features manager at the Los Angeles Times. In 1963 he broke ground on one of the first condominiums in California, on the day the legislation allowing them was passed, and lost it two years later to a man who had promised to help with the financing. Then in 2005, friends in Belgium called him for help: people were riding bicycles and motorcycles through the American cemetery at Henri-Chapelle, where George's company had once buried 17,300 soldiers. He spent a year writing to everyone he could think of, from newspapers to senators, to get gates put on the cemetery. That fight, and a museum in Wheaton, Illinois, led him to start taking teachers to Europe, and at 81 he became a documentary filmmaker.

In Episode 120, the fourth of five conversations, host Josh Lindsay, Christian Taylor and Jason Rugg welcome George back on his 96th birthday. Before the career story, he finally answers the question Episode 117 left hanging: did he ever see Margot, the trapeze star he met in Germany, again? He did, in 1949, in Milwaukee, where she was performing with the Ringling Brothers circus after a fall from the trapeze in New York had broken her back. They kept in touch for a while, but by then, as George puts it, it was "a whole different ballgame."

The episode opens with Christian's update from June 2021: The Girl Who Wore Freedom won best veteran film at the Reedy Reels Film Festival on D-Day, screened at a Beaufort Film Society fundraiser, recorded a town hall for Delta employees ahead of its in-flight debut, and climbed to number 7 on the iTunes documentary chart.

George Ciampa died on January 3, 2024, at the age of 98. We are grateful he trusted us with his story.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • Whether George ever saw Margot again, and what had happened to her
  • How George built one of the first condominiums in California, and how he lost it
  • What George did at the Los Angeles Times
  • Why George spent a year fighting to put gates on the American cemetery at Henri-Chapelle
  • How taking teachers to Europe turned George into a filmmaker at 81
  • How The Girl Who Wore Freedom celebrated D-Day 2021

CHAPTERS

0:00 Film Update: Awards, Delta and D-Day 2021

8:06 Happy 96th Birthday, George

10:44 Did He Ever See Margot Again?

17:55 From Newspaper Ads to The Florentine

22:15 Selling Ads at the Los Angeles Times

25:26 Cemetery Gates and a New Career at 81

31:39 Let Freedom Ring and Thanks to Our Patrons

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Did George Ciampa ever see Margot again?

Yes. George Ciampa says he saw Margot again in 1949 in Milwaukee, about four years after the war, when they were both 24. She was with the Ringling Brothers circus. A fall from the trapeze in New York had broken her back, so she had moved to an act on the ropes. They stayed in touch for a while, but nothing came of it.

How did George Ciampa become a documentary filmmaker?

George Ciampa started making films at 81, in 2006. After a yearlong fight to get gates put on the American cemetery at Henri-Chapelle, Belgium, and encouragement from a retired general and colonel who ran a museum in Wheaton, Illinois, he began taking teachers and combat veterans to Europe. His first film followed four teachers; his second, two.

Why did George Ciampa want gates on the Henri-Chapelle American Cemetery?

In 2005, friends who ran a museum near Henri-Chapelle told George that people from the Netherlands were riding bicycles and motorcycles through the cemetery. George wrote to the press and to officials including John McCain and Elizabeth Dole. He was told gates would give the cemetery a "fortress-like appearance." Lights and hedges were added, but no gates.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/6a83a7

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

George Ciampa

World War II Veteran and Documentary Filmmaker

George Ciampa was born in Boston in 1925 and grew up in Southern California. He served in the 607th Graves Registration Company from Normandy through the Battle of the Bulge to the end of the war, then spent seven months in the army of occupation in Germany. He later worked for the Los Angeles Times. At 81 he began making documentaries about the price of freedom through his nonprofit, Let Freedom Ring, including Let Freedom Ring: The Lesson Is Priceless and Let Freedom Ring: Memories of France, and shared his stories with students in the United States, France and Belgium. He received the French Legion of Honor and the Croix de Guerre. George Ciampa died on January 3, 2024, at the age of 98.

Website: http://www.letfreedomringforall.org

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

THE GEORGE CIAMPA SERIES


RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>How does a newspaper ad man end up making documentaries at 81?

George Ciampa spent his working life selling newspaper advertising, first as a salesman and then for 18 years as special features manager at the Los Angeles Times. In 1963 he broke ground on one of the first condominiums in California, on the day the legislation allowing them was passed, and lost it two years later to a man who had promised to help with the financing. Then in 2005, friends in Belgium called him for help: people were riding bicycles and motorcycles through the American cemetery at Henri-Chapelle, where George's company had once buried 17,300 soldiers. He spent a year writing to everyone he could think of, from newspapers to senators, to get gates put on the cemetery. That fight, and a museum in Wheaton, Illinois, led him to start taking teachers to Europe, and at 81 he became a documentary filmmaker.

In Episode 120, the fourth of five conversations, host Josh Lindsay, Christian Taylor and Jason Rugg welcome George back on his 96th birthday. Before the career story, he finally answers the question Episode 117 left hanging: did he ever see Margot, the trapeze star he met in Germany, again? He did, in 1949, in Milwaukee, where she was performing with the Ringling Brothers circus after a fall from the trapeze in New York had broken her back. They kept in touch for a while, but by then, as George puts it, it was "a whole different ballgame."

The episode opens with Christian's update from June 2021: The Girl Who Wore Freedom won best veteran film at the Reedy Reels Film Festival on D-Day, screened at a Beaufort Film Society fundraiser, recorded a town hall for Delta employees ahead of its in-flight debut, and climbed to number 7 on the iTunes documentary chart.

George Ciampa died on January 3, 2024, at the age of 98. We are grateful he trusted us with his story.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • Whether George ever saw Margot again, and what had happened to her
  • How George built one of the first condominiums in California, and how he lost it
  • What George did at the Los Angeles Times
  • Why George spent a year fighting to put gates on the American cemetery at Henri-Chapelle
  • How taking teachers to Europe turned George into a filmmaker at 81
  • How The Girl Who Wore Freedom celebrated D-Day 2021

CHAPTERS

0:00 Film Update: Awards, Delta and D-Day 2021

8:06 Happy 96th Birthday, George

10:44 Did He Ever See Margot Again?

17:55 From Newspaper Ads to The Florentine

22:15 Selling Ads at the Los Angeles Times

25:26 Cemetery Gates and a New Career at 81

31:39 Let Freedom Ring and Thanks to Our Patrons

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Did George Ciampa ever see Margot again?

Yes. George Ciampa says he saw Margot again in 1949 in Milwaukee, about four years after the war, when they were both 24. She was with the Ringling Brothers circus. A fall from the trapeze in New York had broken her back, so she had moved to an act on the ropes. They stayed in touch for a while, but nothing came of it.

How did George Ciampa become a documentary filmmaker?

George Ciampa started making films at 81, in 2006. After a yearlong fight to get gates put on the American cemetery at Henri-Chapelle, Belgium, and encouragement from a retired general and colonel who ran a museum in Wheaton, Illinois, he began taking teachers and combat veterans to Europe. His first film followed four teachers; his second, two.

Why did George Ciampa want gates on the Henri-Chapelle American Cemetery?

In 2005, friends who ran a museum near Henri-Chapelle told George that people from the Netherlands were riding bicycles and motorcycles through the cemetery. George wrote to the press and to officials including John McCain and Elizabeth Dole. He was told gates would give the cemetery a "fortress-like appearance." Lights and hedges were added, but no gates.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/6a83a7

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

George Ciampa

World War II Veteran and Documentary Filmmaker

George Ciampa was born in Boston in 1925 and grew up in Southern California. He served in the 607th Graves Registration Company from Normandy through the Battle of the Bulge to the end of the war, then spent seven months in the army of occupation in Germany. He later worked for the Los Angeles Times. At 81 he began making documentaries about the price of freedom through his nonprofit, Let Freedom Ring, including Let Freedom Ring: The Lesson Is Priceless and Let Freedom Ring: Memories of France, and shared his stories with students in the United States, France and Belgium. He received the French Legion of Honor and the Croix de Guerre. George Ciampa died on January 3, 2024, at the age of 98.

Website: http://www.letfreedomringforall.org

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

THE GEORGE CIAMPA SERIES


RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>e7286f18-bbc3-4040-b4ac-c3b2a71dd166Thu, 24 Jun 2021 05:13:00 -050036:13falsefull120120Episode 119 | Time to Fly!Episode 119 | Time to Fly!Jeff Kurtenacker, the music composer of TGWWF, fills in for Josh Lindsay and Jason Rugg! Christian shares exciting news regarding partnering with Delta and Michelin, and even meeting with Delta Airlines CEO, Ed Bastian, in Atlanta, GA. Then, connections made during film processes are discussed and the latest stats on distribution are shared.

Support the show: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

]]>Jeff Kurtenacker, the music composer of TGWWF, fills in for Josh Lindsay and Jason Rugg! Christian shares exciting news regarding partnering with Delta and Michelin, and even meeting with Delta Airlines CEO, Ed Bastian, in Atlanta, GA. Then, connections made during film processes are discussed and the latest stats on distribution are shared.

Support the show: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

]]>a28461f9-82e9-4be3-8d57-8f4ea7d54d9bThu, 17 Jun 2021 04:39:00 -050052:53falsefull119119Episode 118 | What Happens When a Film Releases?Episode 118 | What Happens When a Film Releases?The Girl Who Wore Freedom is out on iTunes and lots of other streaming services. We talk through reviews, strategies, cinnamon rolls, and what it's like to release a film online.

We walk through the marketing plan, going grassroots, asking for ratings and letting reviews help bump the film up in the iTunes charts. The marketing wins and losses, plans for the next film, and discoverability.

Then an update on the Delta deal and what it is like to to build a collaborative team behind the film, and how different that is compared to having a huge investor.

]]>The Girl Who Wore Freedom is out on iTunes and lots of other streaming services. We talk through reviews, strategies, cinnamon rolls, and what it's like to release a film online.

We walk through the marketing plan, going grassroots, asking for ratings and letting reviews help bump the film up in the iTunes charts. The marketing wins and losses, plans for the next film, and discoverability.

Then an update on the Delta deal and what it is like to to build a collaborative team behind the film, and how different that is compared to having a huge investor.

]]>e909e3bf-69d1-4641-b988-97b18d3c8155Thu, 10 Jun 2021 02:39:00 -050044:13falsefull118118The War Ends, Then Margot: George Ciampa's Road HomeThe War Ends, Then Margot: George Ciampa's Road HomeWhat happens to a 19-year-old who has spent a year burying the dead when the war suddenly ends?

For George Ciampa, the answer was a circus. After the Battle of the Bulge, his graves registration company left the temporary American cemetery at Henri-Chapelle in Belgium and moved across Germany to Eisenach, in central Germany, where he celebrated the end of the war with two bottles of wine, one white and one red. Then the Army sent him to Mannheim in the army of occupation. Away from the dead for the first time in 11 months, he went to the circus Army Special Services put on for the troops, again and again, because of a young trapeze star named Margot.

In Episode 117, the third of five conversations, host Josh Lindsay and Christian Taylor sit down again with George Ciampa, then 95. The episode opens with news about Christian's film, The Girl Who Wore Freedom, before George picks up his story. He talks about the emotional cost of handling the dead every day, the jeep that nearly got him court-martialed, and the nightmares his sisters heard after he came home. He told us he never knew how he escaped what we now call PTSD. Decades later he went back to Normandy for the 50th anniversary of D-Day, and years after that, while making a film in the Netherlands, he adopted the grave of a Jewish American soldier his own age.

Most of all, he tells the story of Margot. Neither spoke the other's language, so George learned "You Are My Sunshine" in German and sang it to her. In December 1945, waiting at Bremerhaven for a ship home, he took a train about 350 miles to Frankfurt to spend Christmas with her family. He borrowed her father's overcoat, took her to an American movie, and said goodbye at the station. Did he ever see her again? George starts to answer, and his hosts stop him: that story waits for Part 4.

George Ciampa died on January 3, 2024, at the age of 98. We are grateful he trusted us with his story.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • What graves registration units did in Germany after the war ended
  • How George met Margot, a trapeze star in an Army circus
  • How George coped with burying the dead day after day
  • How a jeep traded for a pair of paratrooper boots almost cost him a court-martial
  • What George carried home from the war, and what he never could explain
  • Why he adopted a soldier's grave in the Netherlands
  • What happened between George and Margot at Christmas 1945

CHAPTERS

0:00 Release News for The Girl Who Wore Freedom

5:43 Leaving Henri-Chapelle for Germany

12:39 The Emotional Cost of Burying the Dead

17:20 A Flying Trapeze Artist in Mannheim

25:05 The Jeep That Almost Got Him Court-Martialed

27:27 Nightmares, Memory and Adopting a Grave

34:00 Christmas in Frankfurt With Margot

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What did graves registration units do after World War II ended in Europe?

The work didn't stop when the fighting did. The U.S. didn't want any American cemeteries left in Germany, so at Eisenach, George Ciampa says, the day after Memorial Day services, German prisoners dug up the temporary graves, and each soldier was re-identified by the dog tags on the cross and on the body before being shipped to temporary cemeteries in Belgium, the Netherlands and France.

How did George Ciampa cope with burying the dead?

George Ciampa says the job took an emotional toll, and his sisters heard his nightmares after he came home. He said he never knew how he avoided lasting PTSD. He returned to Normandy for the 50th anniversary of D-Day, and years later, while making a film in the Netherlands, adopted a soldier's grave there.

What was the army of occupation in Germany?

After Germany surrendered in May 1945, American troops stayed to occupy and govern the American zone of Germany. George Ciampa was stationed in Mannheim, where he worked in a salvage company collecting the gear of units going home. In his time off he went to the circus that Army Special Services put on for the troops, and there he met Margot, a trapeze performer.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/6a83aa

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

George Ciampa

World War II Veteran and Documentary Filmmaker

George Ciampa was born in Boston in 1925 and grew up in Southern California. He served in the 607th Graves Registration Company from Normandy through the Battle of the Bulge to the end of the war, then spent seven months in the army of occupation in Germany. He later worked for the Los Angeles Times. At 81 he began making documentaries about the price of freedom through his nonprofit, Let Freedom Ring, including Let Freedom Ring: The Lesson Is Priceless and Let Freedom Ring: Memories of France, and shared his stories with students in the United States, France and Belgium. He received the French Legion of Honor and the Croix de Guerre. George Ciampa died on January 3, 2024, at the age of 98.

Website: http://www.letfreedomringforall.org

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

THE GEORGE CIAMPA SERIES


RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>What happens to a 19-year-old who has spent a year burying the dead when the war suddenly ends?

For George Ciampa, the answer was a circus. After the Battle of the Bulge, his graves registration company left the temporary American cemetery at Henri-Chapelle in Belgium and moved across Germany to Eisenach, in central Germany, where he celebrated the end of the war with two bottles of wine, one white and one red. Then the Army sent him to Mannheim in the army of occupation. Away from the dead for the first time in 11 months, he went to the circus Army Special Services put on for the troops, again and again, because of a young trapeze star named Margot.

In Episode 117, the third of five conversations, host Josh Lindsay and Christian Taylor sit down again with George Ciampa, then 95. The episode opens with news about Christian's film, The Girl Who Wore Freedom, before George picks up his story. He talks about the emotional cost of handling the dead every day, the jeep that nearly got him court-martialed, and the nightmares his sisters heard after he came home. He told us he never knew how he escaped what we now call PTSD. Decades later he went back to Normandy for the 50th anniversary of D-Day, and years after that, while making a film in the Netherlands, he adopted the grave of a Jewish American soldier his own age.

Most of all, he tells the story of Margot. Neither spoke the other's language, so George learned "You Are My Sunshine" in German and sang it to her. In December 1945, waiting at Bremerhaven for a ship home, he took a train about 350 miles to Frankfurt to spend Christmas with her family. He borrowed her father's overcoat, took her to an American movie, and said goodbye at the station. Did he ever see her again? George starts to answer, and his hosts stop him: that story waits for Part 4.

George Ciampa died on January 3, 2024, at the age of 98. We are grateful he trusted us with his story.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • What graves registration units did in Germany after the war ended
  • How George met Margot, a trapeze star in an Army circus
  • How George coped with burying the dead day after day
  • How a jeep traded for a pair of paratrooper boots almost cost him a court-martial
  • What George carried home from the war, and what he never could explain
  • Why he adopted a soldier's grave in the Netherlands
  • What happened between George and Margot at Christmas 1945

CHAPTERS

0:00 Release News for The Girl Who Wore Freedom

5:43 Leaving Henri-Chapelle for Germany

12:39 The Emotional Cost of Burying the Dead

17:20 A Flying Trapeze Artist in Mannheim

25:05 The Jeep That Almost Got Him Court-Martialed

27:27 Nightmares, Memory and Adopting a Grave

34:00 Christmas in Frankfurt With Margot

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What did graves registration units do after World War II ended in Europe?

The work didn't stop when the fighting did. The U.S. didn't want any American cemeteries left in Germany, so at Eisenach, George Ciampa says, the day after Memorial Day services, German prisoners dug up the temporary graves, and each soldier was re-identified by the dog tags on the cross and on the body before being shipped to temporary cemeteries in Belgium, the Netherlands and France.

How did George Ciampa cope with burying the dead?

George Ciampa says the job took an emotional toll, and his sisters heard his nightmares after he came home. He said he never knew how he avoided lasting PTSD. He returned to Normandy for the 50th anniversary of D-Day, and years later, while making a film in the Netherlands, adopted a soldier's grave there.

What was the army of occupation in Germany?

After Germany surrendered in May 1945, American troops stayed to occupy and govern the American zone of Germany. George Ciampa was stationed in Mannheim, where he worked in a salvage company collecting the gear of units going home. In his time off he went to the circus that Army Special Services put on for the troops, and there he met Margot, a trapeze performer.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/6a83aa

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

George Ciampa

World War II Veteran and Documentary Filmmaker

George Ciampa was born in Boston in 1925 and grew up in Southern California. He served in the 607th Graves Registration Company from Normandy through the Battle of the Bulge to the end of the war, then spent seven months in the army of occupation in Germany. He later worked for the Los Angeles Times. At 81 he began making documentaries about the price of freedom through his nonprofit, Let Freedom Ring, including Let Freedom Ring: The Lesson Is Priceless and Let Freedom Ring: Memories of France, and shared his stories with students in the United States, France and Belgium. He received the French Legion of Honor and the Croix de Guerre. George Ciampa died on January 3, 2024, at the age of 98.

Website: http://www.letfreedomringforall.org

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

THE GEORGE CIAMPA SERIES


RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>3b5ab2dd-6e62-48a0-8a89-9722082ffd37Thu, 03 Jun 2021 04:25:00 -050039:07falsefull117117Battle of the Bulge Through a WWII Veteran's Eyes: George CiampaBattle of the Bulge Through a WWII Veteran's Eyes: George CiampaWhat was the Battle of the Bulge like for a 19-year-old who had to bring the dead in from the snow?

In the fall of 1944, George Ciampa's unit, the 607th Graves Registration Company, dug in on a farm at Hombourg, Belgium, next to the village of Henri-Chapelle. They stayed four months, through the rain, the mud and the coldest winter anyone there could remember. By the time they moved on into Germany, they had buried 17,300 Americans in that temporary cemetery. When the Battle of the Bulge broke out in December, George and his company went out onto the frozen battlefields to bring the fallen back.

In Episode 116, the second of five conversations, Jason Rugg fills in as host alongside Christian Taylor, and George Ciampa, then 95, picks up where Part 1 left off. He talks about life in a foxhole for two, a V-1 buzz bomb that dropped a chunk of shrapnel at his feet, a V-2 rocket climbing into the night sky, and the Belgian farm family whose 15-year-old son brought him a keg of warm milk. He describes the bodies his company recovered after the Malmedy massacre, the German soldiers caught wearing American uniforms, and the baseball and comic strip questions GIs used to tell friend from enemy.

George also tells the story of the Wereth 11, 11 Black American artillerymen who were taken in by a Belgian family and then murdered by the SS, and how he came to tell it in his first film, Let Freedom Ring: The Lesson Is Priceless, which he made at 81 with four young history teachers.

The episode opens with Christian's film news from May 2021: The Girl Who Wore Freedom's release in Canada, its deal with Delta, and her next project, The Brave Dutch, which begins with John Low, an American airman from Laurel, Mississippi, who was shot down over occupied Holland in April 1944, kept alive by the Dutch resistance for 11 months, and later wrote a short book in tribute to the people who saved him.

George Ciampa died on January 3, 2024, at the age of 98. We are grateful he trusted us with his story.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How cold the winter of the Battle of the Bulge really was
  • How a temporary American cemetery near Henri-Chapelle grew to 17,300 graves
  • How two soldiers lived, slept and stood guard in a foxhole through a Belgian winter
  • What it was like to live under V-1 buzz bombs and see a V-2 rocket launch
  • How GIs used humor to get through the war
  • What graves registration did after the Malmedy massacre
  • How GIs caught Germans wearing American uniforms
  • The story of the Wereth 11, and how George told it in his first film
  • Why only about 40% of the Americans who died in Europe are buried there today

CHAPTERS

0:00 Film Update: Canada, Delta and The Brave Dutch

7:23 The Coldest Winter and 17,300 Graves

13:06 A Belgian Farm Family and a Keg of Warm Milk

18:49 Strafed on Christmas Day, and a Friend Named Tex

20:56 Life in a Foxhole Under the Buzz Bombs

27:03 Four Months on the Frozen Battlefields

30:53 Malmedy and Germans in American Uniforms

38:41 The Wereth 11

41:44 Let Freedom Ring: The Lesson Is Priceless

47:04 Eisenach and the 40% Who Stayed

51:41 Next Time: Margot and a Jeep

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What did graves registration units do during the Battle of the Bulge?

George Ciampa's 607th Graves Registration Company was based at a temporary cemetery at Hombourg, Belgium, next to Henri-Chapelle, from September 1944 into February 1945. During the Battle of the Bulge, they went out onto the battlefields to collect frozen bodies and bring them back for burial. By the time they left, 17,300 Americans were buried there.

What was the Wereth 11?

The Wereth 11 were 11 Black American artillerymen who escaped to the Belgian village of Wereth during the Battle of the Bulge. A family took them in and fed them, but someone reported them, and SS troops marched them out and killed them. George Ciampa's company buried them. Today seven rest at Henri-Chapelle American Cemetery; four were returned home.

How did American soldiers catch German infiltrators in the Battle of the Bulge?

During the Bulge, some German soldiers wore American uniforms behind the lines. George Ciampa says GIs challenged anyone they didn't know with questions every American would know, about Babe Ruth, current ballplayers or the comic strip Blondie and her husband Dagwood. Three infiltrators were caught near his company's area and executed.

Why are only some of the American soldiers who died in Europe buried there?

After permanent cemeteries were built in 1947, families could bring their soldier home at no cost or leave him in Europe. George Ciampa says about 60% came home. So a cemetery like Henri-Chapelle or Normandy holds only about 40% of the Americans first buried in temporary cemeteries nearby.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/6a83ab

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

George Ciampa

World War II Veteran and Documentary Filmmaker

George Ciampa was born in Boston in 1925 and grew up in Southern California. He served in the 607th Graves Registration Company from Normandy through the Battle of the Bulge to the end of the war, then spent seven months in the army of occupation in Germany. He later worked for the Los Angeles Times. At 81 he began making documentaries about the price of freedom through his nonprofit, Let Freedom Ring, including Let Freedom Ring: The Lesson Is Priceless and Let Freedom Ring: Memories of France, and shared his stories with students in the United States, France and Belgium. He received the French Legion of Honor and the Croix de Guerre. George Ciampa died on January 3, 2024, at the age of 98.

Website: http://www.letfreedomringforall.org

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

THE GEORGE CIAMPA SERIES


RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>What was the Battle of the Bulge like for a 19-year-old who had to bring the dead in from the snow?

In the fall of 1944, George Ciampa's unit, the 607th Graves Registration Company, dug in on a farm at Hombourg, Belgium, next to the village of Henri-Chapelle. They stayed four months, through the rain, the mud and the coldest winter anyone there could remember. By the time they moved on into Germany, they had buried 17,300 Americans in that temporary cemetery. When the Battle of the Bulge broke out in December, George and his company went out onto the frozen battlefields to bring the fallen back.

In Episode 116, the second of five conversations, Jason Rugg fills in as host alongside Christian Taylor, and George Ciampa, then 95, picks up where Part 1 left off. He talks about life in a foxhole for two, a V-1 buzz bomb that dropped a chunk of shrapnel at his feet, a V-2 rocket climbing into the night sky, and the Belgian farm family whose 15-year-old son brought him a keg of warm milk. He describes the bodies his company recovered after the Malmedy massacre, the German soldiers caught wearing American uniforms, and the baseball and comic strip questions GIs used to tell friend from enemy.

George also tells the story of the Wereth 11, 11 Black American artillerymen who were taken in by a Belgian family and then murdered by the SS, and how he came to tell it in his first film, Let Freedom Ring: The Lesson Is Priceless, which he made at 81 with four young history teachers.

The episode opens with Christian's film news from May 2021: The Girl Who Wore Freedom's release in Canada, its deal with Delta, and her next project, The Brave Dutch, which begins with John Low, an American airman from Laurel, Mississippi, who was shot down over occupied Holland in April 1944, kept alive by the Dutch resistance for 11 months, and later wrote a short book in tribute to the people who saved him.

George Ciampa died on January 3, 2024, at the age of 98. We are grateful he trusted us with his story.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How cold the winter of the Battle of the Bulge really was
  • How a temporary American cemetery near Henri-Chapelle grew to 17,300 graves
  • How two soldiers lived, slept and stood guard in a foxhole through a Belgian winter
  • What it was like to live under V-1 buzz bombs and see a V-2 rocket launch
  • How GIs used humor to get through the war
  • What graves registration did after the Malmedy massacre
  • How GIs caught Germans wearing American uniforms
  • The story of the Wereth 11, and how George told it in his first film
  • Why only about 40% of the Americans who died in Europe are buried there today

CHAPTERS

0:00 Film Update: Canada, Delta and The Brave Dutch

7:23 The Coldest Winter and 17,300 Graves

13:06 A Belgian Farm Family and a Keg of Warm Milk

18:49 Strafed on Christmas Day, and a Friend Named Tex

20:56 Life in a Foxhole Under the Buzz Bombs

27:03 Four Months on the Frozen Battlefields

30:53 Malmedy and Germans in American Uniforms

38:41 The Wereth 11

41:44 Let Freedom Ring: The Lesson Is Priceless

47:04 Eisenach and the 40% Who Stayed

51:41 Next Time: Margot and a Jeep

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What did graves registration units do during the Battle of the Bulge?

George Ciampa's 607th Graves Registration Company was based at a temporary cemetery at Hombourg, Belgium, next to Henri-Chapelle, from September 1944 into February 1945. During the Battle of the Bulge, they went out onto the battlefields to collect frozen bodies and bring them back for burial. By the time they left, 17,300 Americans were buried there.

What was the Wereth 11?

The Wereth 11 were 11 Black American artillerymen who escaped to the Belgian village of Wereth during the Battle of the Bulge. A family took them in and fed them, but someone reported them, and SS troops marched them out and killed them. George Ciampa's company buried them. Today seven rest at Henri-Chapelle American Cemetery; four were returned home.

How did American soldiers catch German infiltrators in the Battle of the Bulge?

During the Bulge, some German soldiers wore American uniforms behind the lines. George Ciampa says GIs challenged anyone they didn't know with questions every American would know, about Babe Ruth, current ballplayers or the comic strip Blondie and her husband Dagwood. Three infiltrators were caught near his company's area and executed.

Why are only some of the American soldiers who died in Europe buried there?

After permanent cemeteries were built in 1947, families could bring their soldier home at no cost or leave him in Europe. George Ciampa says about 60% came home. So a cemetery like Henri-Chapelle or Normandy holds only about 40% of the Americans first buried in temporary cemeteries nearby.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/6a83ab

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

George Ciampa

World War II Veteran and Documentary Filmmaker

George Ciampa was born in Boston in 1925 and grew up in Southern California. He served in the 607th Graves Registration Company from Normandy through the Battle of the Bulge to the end of the war, then spent seven months in the army of occupation in Germany. He later worked for the Los Angeles Times. At 81 he began making documentaries about the price of freedom through his nonprofit, Let Freedom Ring, including Let Freedom Ring: The Lesson Is Priceless and Let Freedom Ring: Memories of France, and shared his stories with students in the United States, France and Belgium. He received the French Legion of Honor and the Croix de Guerre. George Ciampa died on January 3, 2024, at the age of 98.

Website: http://www.letfreedomringforall.org

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

THE GEORGE CIAMPA SERIES


RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>00bfecaf-0e54-46c9-bf29-9f6d59d24a28Wed, 26 May 2021 15:45:00 -050057:35falsefull116116He Buried the Fallen After D-Day: WWII Veteran George CiampaHe Buried the Fallen After D-Day: WWII Veteran George CiampaWhat was D-Day like for an 18-year-old whose job was to bury the dead?

George Ciampa was a kid from Boston, one of 10 children of Italian immigrants, who wanted to fly fighter planes. He failed the Air Corps eye test twice. Drafted at 18, he was put into graves registration, the Army units that recovered and buried American soldiers. He landed on Utah Beach in June 1944, 10 days before his 19th birthday, and spent the next 11 months gathering the fallen across France, Belgium and Germany.

In Episode 115, the first of five conversations, Christian Taylor and co-hosts Josh Lindsay and Jason Rugg sit down with George Ciampa, then 95. He starts with the deaths that frightened him as a little boy, the family's 1934 drive from Boston to California, and his job building Navy dive bombers at Douglas Aircraft. Then he takes us to England, where his company, the 607th Graves Registration Company, lost 18 men in Exercise Tiger before the invasion, and across the Channel, where a torpedo plane attacked his ship at night.

George describes wading ashore on Utah Beach, burying paratroopers in their parachutes, starting the temporary cemeteries at Sainte-Mère-Église, and breaking down two weeks in, when a lieutenant put a pistol to his ribs and sent him back to work. He explains why only about 40% of the Americans who fell in Europe are buried there today, and why the marble markers in those cemeteries carry no date of birth. Decades later, George became a documentary filmmaker himself, and he spent the rest of his life teaching students about what he called "the high price of freedom."

George Ciampa died on January 3, 2024, at the age of 98. We are grateful he trusted us with his story.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How a boy from Boston ended up in a World War II graves registration company
  • Why George never became the fighter pilot he wanted to be
  • What happened to the 607th Graves Registration Company in Exercise Tiger
  • What crossing the Channel and wading ashore on Utah Beach was like
  • How the first temporary American cemeteries in Normandy were started
  • What it cost a 19-year-old to handle the dead every day
  • Why most of the Americans who fell in Europe were sent home after the war
  • Why the markers in American military cemeteries show no date of birth
  • What George felt walking down his street when he came home in January 1946

CHAPTERS

0:00 Born in Boston, One of 10 Children

4:06 From Aircraft Plant to Graves Registration

9:05 Exercise Tiger and an English Family

13:47 Crossing the Channel Under Fire

17:03 Wading Ashore on Utah Beach

22:00 Temporary Cemeteries and a Night in Paris

26:46 Breaking Down and the Price of Freedom

30:37 The Bulge and the 40% Who Stayed

37:32 Coming Home to a Christmas Tree in January

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What did graves registration units do in World War II?

Graves registration companies recovered, identified and buried American soldiers who died in combat. George Ciampa's unit, the 607th Graves Registration Company, landed in Normandy in June 1944 and started temporary cemeteries as the Army moved across France, Belgium and Germany.

What was Exercise Tiger?

Exercise Tiger was a rehearsal for the D-Day landings off Slapton Sands, England, in April 1944. German E-boats attacked the landing ships, and hundreds of American soldiers were killed. George Ciampa says his company, the 607th Graves Registration Company, lost 18 men that night, and the survivors were kept apart afterward to protect the secret of the invasion.

Why are only some of the American soldiers who died in Europe buried there?

According to George Ciampa, after permanent cemeteries were built in 1947, families could choose to bring their soldier home at no cost or leave him in Europe. About 60% came home. So the graves in cemeteries like Normandy or Henri-Chapelle represent only about 40% of the Americans first buried in temporary cemeteries nearby.

Why don't American military cemetery markers in Europe show a date of birth?

George Ciampa noticed it when he returned to Normandy for the 50th anniversary: the white marble markers give the soldier's name, rank, unit, state and date of death, but not a date of birth.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/6a83ac

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

George Ciampa

World War II Veteran and Documentary Filmmaker

George Ciampa was born in Boston in 1925 and grew up in Southern California. He served in the 607th Graves Registration Company from Normandy through the Battle of the Bulge to the end of the war, then spent seven months in the army of occupation in Germany. He later worked for the Los Angeles Times. At 81 he began making documentaries about the price of freedom through his nonprofit, Let Freedom Ring, including Let Freedom Ring: The Lesson Is Priceless and Let Freedom Ring: Memories of France, and shared his stories with students in the United States, France and Belgium. He received the French Legion of Honor and the Croix de Guerre. George Ciampa died on January 3, 2024, at the age of 98.

Website: http://www.letfreedomringforall.org

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

THE GEORGE CIAMPA SERIES


RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>What was D-Day like for an 18-year-old whose job was to bury the dead?

George Ciampa was a kid from Boston, one of 10 children of Italian immigrants, who wanted to fly fighter planes. He failed the Air Corps eye test twice. Drafted at 18, he was put into graves registration, the Army units that recovered and buried American soldiers. He landed on Utah Beach in June 1944, 10 days before his 19th birthday, and spent the next 11 months gathering the fallen across France, Belgium and Germany.

In Episode 115, the first of five conversations, Christian Taylor and co-hosts Josh Lindsay and Jason Rugg sit down with George Ciampa, then 95. He starts with the deaths that frightened him as a little boy, the family's 1934 drive from Boston to California, and his job building Navy dive bombers at Douglas Aircraft. Then he takes us to England, where his company, the 607th Graves Registration Company, lost 18 men in Exercise Tiger before the invasion, and across the Channel, where a torpedo plane attacked his ship at night.

George describes wading ashore on Utah Beach, burying paratroopers in their parachutes, starting the temporary cemeteries at Sainte-Mère-Église, and breaking down two weeks in, when a lieutenant put a pistol to his ribs and sent him back to work. He explains why only about 40% of the Americans who fell in Europe are buried there today, and why the marble markers in those cemeteries carry no date of birth. Decades later, George became a documentary filmmaker himself, and he spent the rest of his life teaching students about what he called "the high price of freedom."

George Ciampa died on January 3, 2024, at the age of 98. We are grateful he trusted us with his story.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How a boy from Boston ended up in a World War II graves registration company
  • Why George never became the fighter pilot he wanted to be
  • What happened to the 607th Graves Registration Company in Exercise Tiger
  • What crossing the Channel and wading ashore on Utah Beach was like
  • How the first temporary American cemeteries in Normandy were started
  • What it cost a 19-year-old to handle the dead every day
  • Why most of the Americans who fell in Europe were sent home after the war
  • Why the markers in American military cemeteries show no date of birth
  • What George felt walking down his street when he came home in January 1946

CHAPTERS

0:00 Born in Boston, One of 10 Children

4:06 From Aircraft Plant to Graves Registration

9:05 Exercise Tiger and an English Family

13:47 Crossing the Channel Under Fire

17:03 Wading Ashore on Utah Beach

22:00 Temporary Cemeteries and a Night in Paris

26:46 Breaking Down and the Price of Freedom

30:37 The Bulge and the 40% Who Stayed

37:32 Coming Home to a Christmas Tree in January

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What did graves registration units do in World War II?

Graves registration companies recovered, identified and buried American soldiers who died in combat. George Ciampa's unit, the 607th Graves Registration Company, landed in Normandy in June 1944 and started temporary cemeteries as the Army moved across France, Belgium and Germany.

What was Exercise Tiger?

Exercise Tiger was a rehearsal for the D-Day landings off Slapton Sands, England, in April 1944. German E-boats attacked the landing ships, and hundreds of American soldiers were killed. George Ciampa says his company, the 607th Graves Registration Company, lost 18 men that night, and the survivors were kept apart afterward to protect the secret of the invasion.

Why are only some of the American soldiers who died in Europe buried there?

According to George Ciampa, after permanent cemeteries were built in 1947, families could choose to bring their soldier home at no cost or leave him in Europe. About 60% came home. So the graves in cemeteries like Normandy or Henri-Chapelle represent only about 40% of the Americans first buried in temporary cemeteries nearby.

Why don't American military cemetery markers in Europe show a date of birth?

George Ciampa noticed it when he returned to Normandy for the 50th anniversary: the white marble markers give the soldier's name, rank, unit, state and date of death, but not a date of birth.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/6a83ac

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

George Ciampa

World War II Veteran and Documentary Filmmaker

George Ciampa was born in Boston in 1925 and grew up in Southern California. He served in the 607th Graves Registration Company from Normandy through the Battle of the Bulge to the end of the war, then spent seven months in the army of occupation in Germany. He later worked for the Los Angeles Times. At 81 he began making documentaries about the price of freedom through his nonprofit, Let Freedom Ring, including Let Freedom Ring: The Lesson Is Priceless and Let Freedom Ring: Memories of France, and shared his stories with students in the United States, France and Belgium. He received the French Legion of Honor and the Croix de Guerre. George Ciampa died on January 3, 2024, at the age of 98.

Website: http://www.letfreedomringforall.org

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

THE GEORGE CIAMPA SERIES


RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>de13399a-45c2-4905-aa80-d27696e9ac8eWed, 19 May 2021 16:47:00 -050041:51falsefull115115Episode 114 | Partnerships and Non-Profit PossibilityEpisode 114 | Partnerships and Non-Profit PossibilityThis week was kinda quiet on the film front, so we talk through some of the things that happened, future plans for D-Day film screenings and the future of Christian's filmmaking career.

Then Christian gives us an update on the Delta Airlines relationship and Christian's next film & Living Stories. Christian talks us through her 501c3 organization, what it means for the future and trying to keep things legal.

]]>This week was kinda quiet on the film front, so we talk through some of the things that happened, future plans for D-Day film screenings and the future of Christian's filmmaking career.

Then Christian gives us an update on the Delta Airlines relationship and Christian's next film & Living Stories. Christian talks us through her 501c3 organization, what it means for the future and trying to keep things legal.

]]>ed2654c9-f69d-4081-8f40-f5d0d0a8109fThu, 13 May 2021 04:20:00 -050031:00falsefull114114Episode 113 | Translation Deep DiveEpisode 113 | Translation Deep DiveChristian gives us her usual update on the film, her experience in the Julien Dubuque International Film Festival, and maybe some wins...??? Then she walks us through some of the amazing things she got to see and participate in at the festival, the connections made, and friendships forged. You'll have to listen to find out!

Then, we're joined by Michelle Coupey. She's back to talk about translations, transcriptions and being on location. She advises having several team members who speak both languages as it's most helpful for getting entry into locations where you don't speak the language and with the public while filming. Then the we talk about her adventures in translating, and taking poetic license with subtitles.

]]>Christian gives us her usual update on the film, her experience in the Julien Dubuque International Film Festival, and maybe some wins...??? Then she walks us through some of the amazing things she got to see and participate in at the festival, the connections made, and friendships forged. You'll have to listen to find out!

Then, we're joined by Michelle Coupey. She's back to talk about translations, transcriptions and being on location. She advises having several team members who speak both languages as it's most helpful for getting entry into locations where you don't speak the language and with the public while filming. Then the we talk about her adventures in translating, and taking poetic license with subtitles.

]]>811e4790-e254-4def-b4d7-885b55e70befWed, 05 May 2021 21:33:00 -050050:50falsefull113113Episode 112 | Festival MarketingEpisode 112 | Festival MarketingChristian's in Dubuque, Iowa for the Julien Dubuque International Film Festival! We talk through the festival activities this week, the overwhelming experience, and how the festival tried to stay COVID-19 free.

Christian tells us about Dubuque's unique history, and how the festival makes use of their venues and burning cable cars.

Then we get into branding, both personal and for your film, how to grab eyeballs and do something special at a festival while keeping it on brand. In closing, we check in with Jason and Josh's personal projects.

]]>Christian's in Dubuque, Iowa for the Julien Dubuque International Film Festival! We talk through the festival activities this week, the overwhelming experience, and how the festival tried to stay COVID-19 free.

Christian tells us about Dubuque's unique history, and how the festival makes use of their venues and burning cable cars.

Then we get into branding, both personal and for your film, how to grab eyeballs and do something special at a festival while keeping it on brand. In closing, we check in with Jason and Josh's personal projects.

]]>78f2a115-99a1-48f5-8fe7-3e3255f8cca5Thu, 29 Apr 2021 00:07:00 -050046:23falsefull112112Episode 111 | TranslationEpisode 111 | TranslationToday we're joined by Michelle Coupey. But first, we need an update about the Film. Christian fill us in on some interesting goings on in Wyoming, and Christian won another award, this time from a monthly film competition.

Christian fills us in on new film festivals THIS WEEK, so be sure to listen in and see if you can attend.

We talk through the light and dark of a distribution deal.

Then, we talk through the hurdles of overcoming dual language film, particularly when you don't speak one of them. Michelle recalls how she met Christian and how she came to work on the film as a co-producer and French translator. Christian explains the different translations methods they tried, and failed, and the system they ended up using.

]]>Today we're joined by Michelle Coupey. But first, we need an update about the Film. Christian fill us in on some interesting goings on in Wyoming, and Christian won another award, this time from a monthly film competition.

Christian fills us in on new film festivals THIS WEEK, so be sure to listen in and see if you can attend.

We talk through the light and dark of a distribution deal.

Then, we talk through the hurdles of overcoming dual language film, particularly when you don't speak one of them. Michelle recalls how she met Christian and how she came to work on the film as a co-producer and French translator. Christian explains the different translations methods they tried, and failed, and the system they ended up using.

]]>1f7c1189-87d9-4811-8740-6bd1e6d3b190Thu, 22 Apr 2021 04:28:00 -050043:31falsefull111111Episode 110 | Festival DirectingEpisode 110 | Festival DirectingWe're joined by Ron Tucker, director for the Beaufort Film Festival of which The Girl Who Wore Freedom was a part of last February. He has stories galore about the film world and expert advice about making it in the film business.

]]>We're joined by Ron Tucker, director for the Beaufort Film Festival of which The Girl Who Wore Freedom was a part of last February. He has stories galore about the film world and expert advice about making it in the film business.

]]>66a095d6-8886-45da-9b0b-3f71c5f634ceThu, 15 Apr 2021 06:29:00 -050053:12falsefull110110Episode 109 | Deliverables - Part 2Episode 109 | Deliverables - Part 2*Note: Please excuse the few seconds that got clipped in the beginning, we're adjusting to our new recording software, Zencaster, thanks for understanding!

Today we have no guest! Which, feels a little weird. It's just Christian, Josh and Jason this week.

In this episode, we talk about the announcement on social media of the TGWWF distribution deal, as well as the release announcement strategy and the people behind the announcement plan.

We discuss recent viewership of the film, including how it was received during the free screening weekend (through the Normandie-WWII and Thin Line Film Festivals) by the French people, and in 26 other countries. We talk through the importance of story and film criticism.

Christian gives her thoughts about how to hook your audience, what 'The Chosen' gets right, and we discuss grabbing your audience using what they can easily relate to and by the their emotions and compelling them to support your project.

We talk through distribution plans, participating in the marketing for The Girl Who Wore Freedom, and being an active participant in helping the film make money.

After that, we go back to deliverables!

]]>*Note: Please excuse the few seconds that got clipped in the beginning, we're adjusting to our new recording software, Zencaster, thanks for understanding!

Today we have no guest! Which, feels a little weird. It's just Christian, Josh and Jason this week.

In this episode, we talk about the announcement on social media of the TGWWF distribution deal, as well as the release announcement strategy and the people behind the announcement plan.

We discuss recent viewership of the film, including how it was received during the free screening weekend (through the Normandie-WWII and Thin Line Film Festivals) by the French people, and in 26 other countries. We talk through the importance of story and film criticism.

Christian gives her thoughts about how to hook your audience, what 'The Chosen' gets right, and we discuss grabbing your audience using what they can easily relate to and by the their emotions and compelling them to support your project.

We talk through distribution plans, participating in the marketing for The Girl Who Wore Freedom, and being an active participant in helping the film make money.

After that, we go back to deliverables!

]]>b0df3054-8570-475a-8a8c-c45a992f52e6Thu, 08 Apr 2021 03:23:00 -050059:52falsefull109109Episode 108 | Alex MaierEpisode 108 | Alex MaierToday we're joined by Alex Maier, a filmmaker Christian met at the Flathead Lake Film Festival.

Alex tells us about his history in hiking/backpacking, how he started making films.

We talk through the technical hurdles of being an outdoor filmmaker, the advent of digital cinema, and how it changed the game. Alex tells us about Splitboarding, how he got into it, and the growing movement toward splitboarding.

We talk about self distribution, the day job, and what life is like as an outdoor filmmaker.

]]>Today we're joined by Alex Maier, a filmmaker Christian met at the Flathead Lake Film Festival.

Alex tells us about his history in hiking/backpacking, how he started making films.

We talk through the technical hurdles of being an outdoor filmmaker, the advent of digital cinema, and how it changed the game. Alex tells us about Splitboarding, how he got into it, and the growing movement toward splitboarding.

We talk about self distribution, the day job, and what life is like as an outdoor filmmaker.

]]>c84e68e2-bf0a-464a-8e65-8ee5dc3f91bbThu, 01 Apr 2021 07:57:00 -050058:00falsefull108108Episode 107 | Electric JesusEpisode 107 | Electric JesusWhat's a “faith based” movie? What about a “faith laced” movie?

Chris White, Director, Writer, Producer, and Actor, of the film, “Electric Jesus” joins us to dig into portraying a subculture without parodying or denigrating it, and talks casting and song writing.

We talk charisma, how to hook people with an idea, and Chris shares what he's learned from making films.

]]>What's a “faith based” movie? What about a “faith laced” movie?

Chris White, Director, Writer, Producer, and Actor, of the film, “Electric Jesus” joins us to dig into portraying a subculture without parodying or denigrating it, and talks casting and song writing.

We talk charisma, how to hook people with an idea, and Chris shares what he's learned from making films.

]]>baed4054-2189-43b5-bf8b-7c266b682e22Thu, 25 Mar 2021 05:03:00 -050053:16falsefull107107Tim Gray of the WWII Foundation: Why These Stories Can't WaitTim Gray of the WWII Foundation: Why These Stories Can't WaitWhy would a TV sportscaster walk away from a 15-year career to make films about World War II?

For Tim Gray, it started at six years old, with his first book about the war. He spent about 15 years doing sports on the six and 11 o'clock news, in Michigan, Washington state, Florida, New York and Rhode Island, and left in 2004. His father, a former journalist, asked if he was nuts. Tim made his first film in 2006, taking five veterans back to France, and in 2011 the World War II Foundation became a nonprofit. By the time of this conversation, 27 of his films were airing on American public television.

In Episode 106, from the show's early co-hosted days, host Josh Lindsay, Christian Taylor and Jason Rugg talk with Tim, who Christian called for advice when she set out to make The Girl Who Wore Freedom. His email back said he'd talk to her as long as she wasn't asking him for money. He also told her raising money would be the hardest part. It still is, he says: "I haven't heard no this often since I was dating in high school."

Tim talks about why every film starts with one rule: get to the veteran, get to the survivor, before anything else. He has lost great interviews when someone passed away two days before the shoot. He builds each film from the sound bites first so his narration stays out of the way, because, as he says, you learn "when not to get in the way of the story being told." He gives the films away free, so nothing stands between a student and the story. And he tells the story behind the film that affected him most, walking into a gas chamber at Auschwitz with survivor Izzy Arbeiter.

WATCH THE FILMS: Tim's documentaries are at the World War II Foundation.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How 15 years in TV sports taught Tim to write on deadline
  • How the foundation gets narrators like Gary Sinise, Liev Schreiber and Tom Selleck
  • Why Tim looks for donors with a family tie to the war
  • His advice for first-time filmmakers: find a story nobody has told
  • Why he lays down the sound bites before writing a word of narration
  • Why interviews come first, sometimes years before the film
  • How filmmakers share footage, like the Dick Winters interview in Hang Tough
  • Why the foundation gives its films away free
  • How virtual reality and a cardboard viewer can put a student on Omaha Beach
  • The promise Izzy Arbeiter made to his father

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Who is Tim Gray of the World War II Foundation?

Tim Gray is a documentary filmmaker and the founder and president of the World War II Foundation in Rhode Island. He was a TV sportscaster for about 15 years before he left in 2004. He made his first World War II film in 2006, and the foundation became a nonprofit in 2011. He writes, produces and directs the films and hires experienced crews for the technical work.

How does the World War II Foundation fund and share its films?

Tim Gray says the foundation raises all its money up front, from corporate and individual donors and sometimes grants. Then it donates the finished films to American public television and makes them free on its website for students, educators and the public. Its mission is education, he says, so it doesn't want a barrier between the viewer and the story.

What advice does Tim Gray give first-time documentary filmmakers?

Find something nobody else has done, he says, or find a way to do it differently. You can shoot a documentary on a smartphone today, so it doesn't have to be a Ken Burns feature. And keep going: he compares it to the soldiers on Omaha Beach, who couldn't turn back. "Just keep moving up forward and off the beach."

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen on your favorite app: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT

Documentary First: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Tim Gray is the founder and president of the World War II Foundation. Before that he spent more than 15 years as a TV sports and news anchor and reporter, including weekend sports anchor at Channel 10 in Providence from 2000 to 2004. The foundation lists 47 documentaries he has written, produced and directed, and 7 Regional Emmy Awards. His narrators have included Tom Brokaw, Gary Sinise, Liev Schreiber, Tom Selleck, Dan Aykroyd, Matthew Broderick, Jim Nantz, Luke Bryan, Bill Belichick and Damian Lewis. He founded a World War II film festival in Normandy and holds a journalism degree from the University of Rhode Island. Tim's bio

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>Why would a TV sportscaster walk away from a 15-year career to make films about World War II?

For Tim Gray, it started at six years old, with his first book about the war. He spent about 15 years doing sports on the six and 11 o'clock news, in Michigan, Washington state, Florida, New York and Rhode Island, and left in 2004. His father, a former journalist, asked if he was nuts. Tim made his first film in 2006, taking five veterans back to France, and in 2011 the World War II Foundation became a nonprofit. By the time of this conversation, 27 of his films were airing on American public television.

In Episode 106, from the show's early co-hosted days, host Josh Lindsay, Christian Taylor and Jason Rugg talk with Tim, who Christian called for advice when she set out to make The Girl Who Wore Freedom. His email back said he'd talk to her as long as she wasn't asking him for money. He also told her raising money would be the hardest part. It still is, he says: "I haven't heard no this often since I was dating in high school."

Tim talks about why every film starts with one rule: get to the veteran, get to the survivor, before anything else. He has lost great interviews when someone passed away two days before the shoot. He builds each film from the sound bites first so his narration stays out of the way, because, as he says, you learn "when not to get in the way of the story being told." He gives the films away free, so nothing stands between a student and the story. And he tells the story behind the film that affected him most, walking into a gas chamber at Auschwitz with survivor Izzy Arbeiter.

WATCH THE FILMS: Tim's documentaries are at the World War II Foundation.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How 15 years in TV sports taught Tim to write on deadline
  • How the foundation gets narrators like Gary Sinise, Liev Schreiber and Tom Selleck
  • Why Tim looks for donors with a family tie to the war
  • His advice for first-time filmmakers: find a story nobody has told
  • Why he lays down the sound bites before writing a word of narration
  • Why interviews come first, sometimes years before the film
  • How filmmakers share footage, like the Dick Winters interview in Hang Tough
  • Why the foundation gives its films away free
  • How virtual reality and a cardboard viewer can put a student on Omaha Beach
  • The promise Izzy Arbeiter made to his father

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Who is Tim Gray of the World War II Foundation?

Tim Gray is a documentary filmmaker and the founder and president of the World War II Foundation in Rhode Island. He was a TV sportscaster for about 15 years before he left in 2004. He made his first World War II film in 2006, and the foundation became a nonprofit in 2011. He writes, produces and directs the films and hires experienced crews for the technical work.

How does the World War II Foundation fund and share its films?

Tim Gray says the foundation raises all its money up front, from corporate and individual donors and sometimes grants. Then it donates the finished films to American public television and makes them free on its website for students, educators and the public. Its mission is education, he says, so it doesn't want a barrier between the viewer and the story.

What advice does Tim Gray give first-time documentary filmmakers?

Find something nobody else has done, he says, or find a way to do it differently. You can shoot a documentary on a smartphone today, so it doesn't have to be a Ken Burns feature. And keep going: he compares it to the soldiers on Omaha Beach, who couldn't turn back. "Just keep moving up forward and off the beach."

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen on your favorite app: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT

Documentary First: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

ABOUT THE GUEST

Tim Gray is the founder and president of the World War II Foundation. Before that he spent more than 15 years as a TV sports and news anchor and reporter, including weekend sports anchor at Channel 10 in Providence from 2000 to 2004. The foundation lists 47 documentaries he has written, produced and directed, and 7 Regional Emmy Awards. His narrators have included Tom Brokaw, Gary Sinise, Liev Schreiber, Tom Selleck, Dan Aykroyd, Matthew Broderick, Jim Nantz, Luke Bryan, Bill Belichick and Damian Lewis. He founded a World War II film festival in Normandy and holds a journalism degree from the University of Rhode Island. Tim's bio

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>20a8d787-e170-4bd8-8c43-07f4e8a3d76aWed, 17 Mar 2021 19:41:00 -050050:37falsefull106106Episode 105 | Deliverables - Part 1Episode 105 | Deliverables - Part 1This week we hear about website optimization and film deliverables! I swear, it’s more interesting than it sounds!

Check out the updated “watch” page for The Girl Who Wore Freedom here: https://thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/festivals/

Then, Christian’s headed to Iowa! The film has been accepted to YET ANOTHER Festival. With a CASH prize? We dig into the financial aspect of film festivals.

Then we talk about Deliverables. What are they? How do they work? What sorts of things do you need to plan ahead for?

]]>This week we hear about website optimization and film deliverables! I swear, it’s more interesting than it sounds!

Check out the updated “watch” page for The Girl Who Wore Freedom here: https://thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/festivals/

Then, Christian’s headed to Iowa! The film has been accepted to YET ANOTHER Festival. With a CASH prize? We dig into the financial aspect of film festivals.

Then we talk about Deliverables. What are they? How do they work? What sorts of things do you need to plan ahead for?

]]>e1e35582-1426-422c-94c3-87e9a346b41aWed, 10 Mar 2021 23:21:00 -060041:07falsefull105105Episode 104 | Festival LessonsEpisode 104 | Festival LessonsWe get an update on how the film festivals went, awards won, and then we get into some facts about The Girl Who Wore Freedom’s Festival run.

Christian walks us through the process of entering film festivals. There are many stages, confusing titles, and work arounds.

Christian recounts theater experiences, how important and rewarding it is to see/hear how your film impacts people, and how that’s missing during the pandemic. Then we hear about how important film festivals are for local economies.

]]>We get an update on how the film festivals went, awards won, and then we get into some facts about The Girl Who Wore Freedom’s Festival run.

Christian walks us through the process of entering film festivals. There are many stages, confusing titles, and work arounds.

Christian recounts theater experiences, how important and rewarding it is to see/hear how your film impacts people, and how that’s missing during the pandemic. Then we hear about how important film festivals are for local economies.

]]>daf4ca4a-633c-4d8f-bb42-a08bbadbb232Thu, 04 Mar 2021 01:00:00 -060045:26falsefull104104Episode 103 | Behind the StringsEpisode 103 | Behind the StringsWe get an update about the film, film festivals, and we hear from Jason and Josh, who were not at all prepared for this. Christian talks us through some of the other films at the festival.

Then we are joined by Michael Peroff, a filmmaker who’s film Behind the Strings dives deep into Chamber Music and the Shanghai Quartet.

Michael fills us in on how he discovered Chamber Music, his history, and gives us a synopsis of the film and how it’s effected him.

]]>We get an update about the film, film festivals, and we hear from Jason and Josh, who were not at all prepared for this. Christian talks us through some of the other films at the festival.

Then we are joined by Michael Peroff, a filmmaker who’s film Behind the Strings dives deep into Chamber Music and the Shanghai Quartet.

Michael fills us in on how he discovered Chamber Music, his history, and gives us a synopsis of the film and how it’s effected him.

]]>11b51c82-abc1-41ea-9c27-75ce5b992befWed, 24 Feb 2021 19:39:00 -060051:18falsefull103103Ex-JW Documentary on a $20,000 BudgetEx-JW Documentary on a $20,000 BudgetWhat do you lose when you make a film about the faith you left?

Making a documentary about the Jehovah's Witnesses meant first-time filmmaker Scott Homan had to spend about $20,000, shoot for ten days and work through a long edit, all while expecting pushback from the organization. His film, Witness Underground, follows musicians who built their own music scene inside a culture where, as Scott describes it, bands and fame were off limits.

In Episode 102 of Documentary First, host Josh Lindsay, Christian Taylor and Jason Rugg talk with Scott Homan, director of Witness Underground and co-founder of Banana Island Films. Scott found the show by searching for documentary podcasts, binged every episode, and became one of the first listeners to write in and say it had helped him avoid some of the mistakes Christian made on her first film.

Scott explains how he built the film from five long interviews rather than a script, letting a friend ask about the religion while he asked about the music, then handing a mountain of footage to a remote story editor who gave him a two-and-a-half-hour first cut. He talks about growing up with a lighter experience of the religion than most, playing in a band in high school, leaving, and reconnecting with the musicians years later through a 48 Hour Film Project in Vietnam. He also explains what it means to be shunned, why the people in his film have already lost so much, and why he decided to go public anyway.

Then the conversation turns practical: the tools that got a micro-budget documentary finished during the pandemic, the festival course he wishes he'd joined sooner, and why Christian tells filmmakers to think about the business of their film first. The episode opens with team news, as Hunter Taylor leaves the Normandy Project for Navy officer school and Ben Feithen steps in, plus a film update on distribution, a coming Patreon and an invitation from a veterans group at L'Oréal.

WATCH THE FILM: Witness Underground is on Amazon, Apple TV and Tubi.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How to build a documentary from interviews when there is no script
  • Why each person got two interviews, one on the religion and one on the music
  • How a remote story editor turned hours of footage into a first cut
  • What it took to make a feature for about $20,000 in ten days of shooting
  • Why a small, skilled crew matters even when you can do every job yourself
  • How shunning works, and the risk of being sued for telling the story
  • Descript, Amara and Google Drive: the tools behind a remote, micro-budget edit
  • Why you should move your opening credits to the end
  • Why Christian says to plan the business of your film first
  • Scott's three tips for first-time filmmakers

CHAPTERS

0:00 Hunter Leaves and L'Oréal Calls

9:11 Meet Director Scott Homan

14:56 What Is Witness Underground?

19:56 Scott's Own Story in the Faith

22:27 Interviews, Editing and a $20,000 Budget

25:51 Shunning and the Fear of Lawsuits

31:08 Dark Nights of the Soul

35:36 Descript, Frame.io and Amara

40:05 Festival Strategy That Works

51:36 Next Projects and The Brave Dutch

57:03 Scott Reviews The Girl Who Wore Freedom

1:00:16 Three Tips for First-Time Filmmakers

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What is Witness Underground about?

Witness Underground is a documentary by Scott Homan about musicians who grew up inside the Jehovah's Witnesses and built their own music scene there, where, as Scott describes it, being in a band or chasing fame was off limits. In Scott's logline, they "push the boundaries until they hit the bars of the cage they are in." Scott, who also left the religion, tells the story through five of them.

How do you make a documentary on a micro-budget?

Scott Homan shot Witness Underground in ten days and says he had about $20,000 into the whole feature. He ran lighting, sound and two cameras himself, then gave the footage to a remote story editor. He used Descript to cut early versions from the transcript and Amara, a free nonprofit tool, for captions. He says his biggest challenges were the tiny budget and not having a skilled crew on set.

How do you make a documentary without a script?

Scott Homan didn't write Witness Underground; he interviewed five people for about three hours each. A friend asked about the religion from an outsider's view, then Scott took over for a second interview about the music, which became the personal thread. He let the footage sit for six months, then a story editor built a two-and-a-half-hour cut that he trimmed over about seven sessions.

What happens to people who leave the Jehovah's Witnesses?

According to Scott Homan, people who leave are often shunned. He says he has had silence from family for about ten years, and some of the people in his film have had little contact with family for years. He says Witnesses are taught that talking with those who have left puts their own relationships and their hope of living forever on a paradise earth at risk.

What should a first-time documentary filmmaker do first?

Scott Homan's advice: shoot a trailer early to test the idea and help raise money, find the people online who already care about your subject and talk with them, and plan your film festival strategy, synopsis, logline, poster and trailer long before the film is finished. Christian Taylor adds that filmmakers should think about the business and who will buy the film first.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/6a8c8e

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn

ABOUT THE GUEST

Scott Homan

Director, Witness Underground; co-founder, Banana Island Films

Scott Homan grew up in the north woods of Wisconsin and made his first two documentaries at 17 in a high school film program. He ran camera and audio for a Channel 7 newsroom and studied photography in Minneapolis during the move from film to digital. He then spent seven years in Ecuador and Vietnam, where he and two friends started the production company Banana Island Films in Hanoi. Witness Underground won Best Documentary Feature at the GenreBlast Film Festival.

Website: https://witnessunderground.com

Banana Island Films: https://www.bananaislandfilms.com

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED

  • Descript, for transcript-based editing
  • Amara, free captions and translation
  • Frame.io, for review and notes with collaborators

]]>What do you lose when you make a film about the faith you left?

Making a documentary about the Jehovah's Witnesses meant first-time filmmaker Scott Homan had to spend about $20,000, shoot for ten days and work through a long edit, all while expecting pushback from the organization. His film, Witness Underground, follows musicians who built their own music scene inside a culture where, as Scott describes it, bands and fame were off limits.

In Episode 102 of Documentary First, host Josh Lindsay, Christian Taylor and Jason Rugg talk with Scott Homan, director of Witness Underground and co-founder of Banana Island Films. Scott found the show by searching for documentary podcasts, binged every episode, and became one of the first listeners to write in and say it had helped him avoid some of the mistakes Christian made on her first film.

Scott explains how he built the film from five long interviews rather than a script, letting a friend ask about the religion while he asked about the music, then handing a mountain of footage to a remote story editor who gave him a two-and-a-half-hour first cut. He talks about growing up with a lighter experience of the religion than most, playing in a band in high school, leaving, and reconnecting with the musicians years later through a 48 Hour Film Project in Vietnam. He also explains what it means to be shunned, why the people in his film have already lost so much, and why he decided to go public anyway.

Then the conversation turns practical: the tools that got a micro-budget documentary finished during the pandemic, the festival course he wishes he'd joined sooner, and why Christian tells filmmakers to think about the business of their film first. The episode opens with team news, as Hunter Taylor leaves the Normandy Project for Navy officer school and Ben Feithen steps in, plus a film update on distribution, a coming Patreon and an invitation from a veterans group at L'Oréal.

WATCH THE FILM: Witness Underground is on Amazon, Apple TV and Tubi.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • How to build a documentary from interviews when there is no script
  • Why each person got two interviews, one on the religion and one on the music
  • How a remote story editor turned hours of footage into a first cut
  • What it took to make a feature for about $20,000 in ten days of shooting
  • Why a small, skilled crew matters even when you can do every job yourself
  • How shunning works, and the risk of being sued for telling the story
  • Descript, Amara and Google Drive: the tools behind a remote, micro-budget edit
  • Why you should move your opening credits to the end
  • Why Christian says to plan the business of your film first
  • Scott's three tips for first-time filmmakers

CHAPTERS

0:00 Hunter Leaves and L'Oréal Calls

9:11 Meet Director Scott Homan

14:56 What Is Witness Underground?

19:56 Scott's Own Story in the Faith

22:27 Interviews, Editing and a $20,000 Budget

25:51 Shunning and the Fear of Lawsuits

31:08 Dark Nights of the Soul

35:36 Descript, Frame.io and Amara

40:05 Festival Strategy That Works

51:36 Next Projects and The Brave Dutch

57:03 Scott Reviews The Girl Who Wore Freedom

1:00:16 Three Tips for First-Time Filmmakers

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What is Witness Underground about?

Witness Underground is a documentary by Scott Homan about musicians who grew up inside the Jehovah's Witnesses and built their own music scene there, where, as Scott describes it, being in a band or chasing fame was off limits. In Scott's logline, they "push the boundaries until they hit the bars of the cage they are in." Scott, who also left the religion, tells the story through five of them.

How do you make a documentary on a micro-budget?

Scott Homan shot Witness Underground in ten days and says he had about $20,000 into the whole feature. He ran lighting, sound and two cameras himself, then gave the footage to a remote story editor. He used Descript to cut early versions from the transcript and Amara, a free nonprofit tool, for captions. He says his biggest challenges were the tiny budget and not having a skilled crew on set.

How do you make a documentary without a script?

Scott Homan didn't write Witness Underground; he interviewed five people for about three hours each. A friend asked about the religion from an outsider's view, then Scott took over for a second interview about the music, which became the personal thread. He let the footage sit for six months, then a story editor built a two-and-a-half-hour cut that he trimmed over about seven sessions.

What happens to people who leave the Jehovah's Witnesses?

According to Scott Homan, people who leave are often shunned. He says he has had silence from family for about ten years, and some of the people in his film have had little contact with family for years. He says Witnesses are taught that talking with those who have left puts their own relationships and their hope of living forever on a paradise earth at risk.

What should a first-time documentary filmmaker do first?

Scott Homan's advice: shoot a trailer early to test the idea and help raise money, find the people online who already care about your subject and talk with them, and plan your film festival strategy, synopsis, logline, poster and trailer long before the film is finished. Christian Taylor adds that filmmakers should think about the business and who will buy the film first.

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/6a8c8e

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn

ABOUT THE GUEST

Scott Homan

Director, Witness Underground; co-founder, Banana Island Films

Scott Homan grew up in the north woods of Wisconsin and made his first two documentaries at 17 in a high school film program. He ran camera and audio for a Channel 7 newsroom and studied photography in Minneapolis during the move from film to digital. He then spent seven years in Ecuador and Vietnam, where he and two friends started the production company Banana Island Films in Hanoi. Witness Underground won Best Documentary Feature at the GenreBlast Film Festival.

Website: https://witnessunderground.com

Banana Island Films: https://www.bananaislandfilms.com

ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED

  • Descript, for transcript-based editing
  • Amara, free captions and translation
  • Frame.io, for review and notes with collaborators

]]>42988866-61a3-43f2-a6c2-e0a2a30ef07eThu, 18 Feb 2021 02:01:00 -060001:09:19falsefull102102Episode 101 | Michèle Phoenix - Translation TroublesEpisode 101 | Michèle Phoenix - Translation TroublesToday we’re joined by Michèle Phoenix! But first, as usual, an update about film, distribution, deliverables and an update from Josh and Jason. We talk about the challenges of working on a multi-lingual film, particularly if you don’t speak all the languages. We talk through the workarounds they’ve used to live translate, and work through problems. We talk through Michèle’s history, how she came to work on the film and overcoming obstacles.

Christian and Michèle recount several translation stories from making the film, and the beautiful moments they got to experience. Michèle then fills us in on the book she wrote after her experiences on the film.

Check out her books and website here: https://michelephoenix.com/，Fragments of Light: https://amzn.to/2PyDNZz

]]>Today we’re joined by Michèle Phoenix! But first, as usual, an update about film, distribution, deliverables and an update from Josh and Jason. We talk about the challenges of working on a multi-lingual film, particularly if you don’t speak all the languages. We talk through the workarounds they’ve used to live translate, and work through problems. We talk through Michèle’s history, how she came to work on the film and overcoming obstacles.

Christian and Michèle recount several translation stories from making the film, and the beautiful moments they got to experience. Michèle then fills us in on the book she wrote after her experiences on the film.

Check out her books and website here: https://michelephoenix.com/，Fragments of Light: https://amzn.to/2PyDNZz

]]>843ef650-bc2f-4891-8f5d-1dbfb96571d9Thu, 11 Feb 2021 02:15:00 -060049:16falsefull101101Episode 100 | Party Time!Episode 100 | Party Time!It’s Episode 100, and we’ve got a whole mess of people on the show. We’ve got Jason Hoban, Jonathan Liu, Bradley Stair, and Jeff Kurtenacker! We’re celebrating 100 episodes of the podcast, and some big news for the film.

We get some background on how Documentary First is made, then we dig into some exciting news!

We talk through the learning experience of the film, the amazing experience of “Just doing it”. The process of discovering if you can do something. Making something creative.

]]>It’s Episode 100, and we’ve got a whole mess of people on the show. We’ve got Jason Hoban, Jonathan Liu, Bradley Stair, and Jeff Kurtenacker! We’re celebrating 100 episodes of the podcast, and some big news for the film.

We get some background on how Documentary First is made, then we dig into some exciting news!

We talk through the learning experience of the film, the amazing experience of “Just doing it”. The process of discovering if you can do something. Making something creative.

]]>b6bc8d4d-33b6-4514-a440-6f82286fd3b3Thu, 04 Feb 2021 01:32:00 -060025:19falsefull100100Episode 99 | Rudy, Call Sheets and Scripts!Episode 99 | Rudy, Call Sheets and Scripts!Sandy Gordon is back! But first we have to get some updates about the film, and film festivals. Sandy brought some show and tell today, she brings out some scripts, notebooks, etc from previous projects. Then Sally runs down all the information included on a Call Sheet, how it’s organized and why it’s included on the sheet. Then we talk through how Rudy filled a football stadium.

]]>Sandy Gordon is back! But first we have to get some updates about the film, and film festivals. Sandy brought some show and tell today, she brings out some scripts, notebooks, etc from previous projects. Then Sally runs down all the information included on a Call Sheet, how it’s organized and why it’s included on the sheet. Then we talk through how Rudy filled a football stadium.

]]>8e2ecf97-0309-42fa-9344-a54bd900cb87Thu, 28 Jan 2021 00:37:00 -060029:30falsefull9999What Does a Line Producer Do? An Emmy Winner ExplainsWhat Does a Line Producer Do? An Emmy Winner ExplainsHow do you save $20,000 on a thermometer commercial without putting a baby on camera?

A line producer is the person who turns a script into a budget, a schedule and a plan, and on a small film that person often decides whether the money lasts. In this episode, Emmy Award-winning producer Sandy Gordon explains what a line producer does on a feature, an indie film, a commercial or a documentary, and why the job starts long before the cameras roll.

In Episode 98 of Documentary First, host Josh Lindsay, Christian Taylor and Jason Rugg welcome back Sandy Gordon, a consulting producer on The Girl Who Wore Freedom, for the second of three back-to-back conversations (Part 1 is Episode 97 and Part 3 is Episode 99; links below). Sandy's career includes Rudy, The Hudsucker Proxy, where she worked in the locations department on the Chicago night shoots, and Return to Me, where she was a production assistant and production coordinator. She opens with a story from the Hudsucker shoot: an elevator ride with Paul Newman, about five minutes before that elevator broke down.

Then Sandy gets to the job itself. The "line" in line producer means the line items of the budget: crew, equipment, locations, props, wardrobe, anything that costs money. She explains why nobody can ballpark a budget (two people on a park bench and a yacht with a helicopter overhead are very different three-minute films), how she rethought a thermometer commercial so most shots needed no real baby, and why scenes get grouped by location instead of shot in script order. Christian admits this has been a really tough area on her first film: The Girl Who Wore Freedom never had a line producer, and she tells first-time filmmakers not to skip this hire.

Sandy also covers what to look for in a line producer, why she always plans for the editor, how she feeds a crew (no turkey at lunch, fewer candy bars, matzah at Passover), her reusable water bottles on set, and how COVID and streaming are changing the business.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • What a line producer does on a blockbuster, an indie film, a commercial and a documentary
  • Why "line" refers to the line items in a film budget
  • Why you can't ballpark a film budget, and what one missing detail can do to it
  • How one rethink of a thermometer commercial saved about $20,000
  • How grouping scenes and choosing nearby locations saves time and money
  • When to bring a line producer onto your film, and why the work shouldn't be a favor
  • How to afford a line producer when money is tight
  • The qualities that make a good line producer, from organization to the nerve to say no
  • Why planning for the edit early saves a production later
  • How food, rest and craft services keep a crew going through a long day
  • How COVID and streaming are changing production and audiences

CHAPTERS

0:00 Meet Producer Sandy Gordon and The Hudsucker Proxy

4:08 What Does a Line Producer Do?

7:40 Why You Can't Ballpark a Budget

10:53 Scheduling Tricks That Save Money

14:02 What to Look for in a Line Producer

17:44 Feeding and Caring for Your Crew

23:12 How COVID and Streaming Change Production

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What does a line producer do?

A line producer manages a production's budget line by line: crew, equipment, locations, props, wardrobe and anything else that costs money. According to producer Sandy Gordon, that also means managing time and the shooting plan, because every hour behind schedule costs money. On big films, each department manages its own piece of the budget; on smaller shoots, she often manages all of it herself.

When should you hire a line producer?

At the very beginning. Sandy Gordon says a line producer should map the plan from pre-production through post, because you can't price a film until you know exactly what you're shooting. Don't expect the work as a favor. If money is tight, she suggests paying a line producer to build the budget and plan up front, then bringing them back once the money is raised.

How can a line producer save money on a shoot?

By finding a cheaper way to show the same thing. On a thermometer commercial, Sandy Gordon suggested filming a bathtub filling while a baby is heard off camera, and a doll under a blanket for the bedtime shot, which she estimates saved about $20,000. Line producers also group scenes by location and choose locations close together, so trucks and lights don't have to move.

Why can't you ballpark a film budget?

Producer Sandy Gordon says one missing detail can make a budget go "completely haywire." A three-minute film of two people on a park bench needs a couple of actors and some crowd control. A three-minute film on a yacht in the middle of the ocean, with a helicopter dropping money over the boat, needs a yacht rental, a helicopter and permits. Until you know exactly what you're shooting, any number is a guess.

What should you look for in a line producer?

Sandy Gordon looks for someone very organized, detail-minded and able to see the bigger picture, with the confidence to tell people no, even a star who won't put on a mask. For a documentary, she suggests someone who has worked on interview-style shoots and knows the area and its equipment rentals. She also wants someone who thinks about the editor from day one, because "you can't fix everything in post."

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/6a8c92

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn

ABOUT THE GUEST

Sandy Gordon

Producer, and consulting producer on The Girl Who Wore Freedom

Sandy Gordon is an Emmy Award-winning producer. Her feature film work, mostly in locations departments, includes Rudy and The Hudsucker Proxy, where she also swept up the confetti used as snow on the street, and she was a production assistant and production coordinator on Return to Me. Her television work includes Party of Five. She spent several years at a post-production facility and has worked with animators and graphic designers, and she has seen what editors are left without, which is why she plans every shoot with the edit in mind. As Sandra Gordon, she wrote Action! Establishing Your Career in Film and Television Production (Applause Books), full of behind-the-scenes stories from crew members, and Great Jobs for Film Majors, now out of print. At the time of this 2021 recording, she was in the Chicago area, working at DePaul University.

MORE WITH SANDY GORDON


ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>How do you save $20,000 on a thermometer commercial without putting a baby on camera?

A line producer is the person who turns a script into a budget, a schedule and a plan, and on a small film that person often decides whether the money lasts. In this episode, Emmy Award-winning producer Sandy Gordon explains what a line producer does on a feature, an indie film, a commercial or a documentary, and why the job starts long before the cameras roll.

In Episode 98 of Documentary First, host Josh Lindsay, Christian Taylor and Jason Rugg welcome back Sandy Gordon, a consulting producer on The Girl Who Wore Freedom, for the second of three back-to-back conversations (Part 1 is Episode 97 and Part 3 is Episode 99; links below). Sandy's career includes Rudy, The Hudsucker Proxy, where she worked in the locations department on the Chicago night shoots, and Return to Me, where she was a production assistant and production coordinator. She opens with a story from the Hudsucker shoot: an elevator ride with Paul Newman, about five minutes before that elevator broke down.

Then Sandy gets to the job itself. The "line" in line producer means the line items of the budget: crew, equipment, locations, props, wardrobe, anything that costs money. She explains why nobody can ballpark a budget (two people on a park bench and a yacht with a helicopter overhead are very different three-minute films), how she rethought a thermometer commercial so most shots needed no real baby, and why scenes get grouped by location instead of shot in script order. Christian admits this has been a really tough area on her first film: The Girl Who Wore Freedom never had a line producer, and she tells first-time filmmakers not to skip this hire.

Sandy also covers what to look for in a line producer, why she always plans for the editor, how she feeds a crew (no turkey at lunch, fewer candy bars, matzah at Passover), her reusable water bottles on set, and how COVID and streaming are changing the business.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • What a line producer does on a blockbuster, an indie film, a commercial and a documentary
  • Why "line" refers to the line items in a film budget
  • Why you can't ballpark a film budget, and what one missing detail can do to it
  • How one rethink of a thermometer commercial saved about $20,000
  • How grouping scenes and choosing nearby locations saves time and money
  • When to bring a line producer onto your film, and why the work shouldn't be a favor
  • How to afford a line producer when money is tight
  • The qualities that make a good line producer, from organization to the nerve to say no
  • Why planning for the edit early saves a production later
  • How food, rest and craft services keep a crew going through a long day
  • How COVID and streaming are changing production and audiences

CHAPTERS

0:00 Meet Producer Sandy Gordon and The Hudsucker Proxy

4:08 What Does a Line Producer Do?

7:40 Why You Can't Ballpark a Budget

10:53 Scheduling Tricks That Save Money

14:02 What to Look for in a Line Producer

17:44 Feeding and Caring for Your Crew

23:12 How COVID and Streaming Change Production

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What does a line producer do?

A line producer manages a production's budget line by line: crew, equipment, locations, props, wardrobe and anything else that costs money. According to producer Sandy Gordon, that also means managing time and the shooting plan, because every hour behind schedule costs money. On big films, each department manages its own piece of the budget; on smaller shoots, she often manages all of it herself.

When should you hire a line producer?

At the very beginning. Sandy Gordon says a line producer should map the plan from pre-production through post, because you can't price a film until you know exactly what you're shooting. Don't expect the work as a favor. If money is tight, she suggests paying a line producer to build the budget and plan up front, then bringing them back once the money is raised.

How can a line producer save money on a shoot?

By finding a cheaper way to show the same thing. On a thermometer commercial, Sandy Gordon suggested filming a bathtub filling while a baby is heard off camera, and a doll under a blanket for the bedtime shot, which she estimates saved about $20,000. Line producers also group scenes by location and choose locations close together, so trucks and lights don't have to move.

Why can't you ballpark a film budget?

Producer Sandy Gordon says one missing detail can make a budget go "completely haywire." A three-minute film of two people on a park bench needs a couple of actors and some crowd control. A three-minute film on a yacht in the middle of the ocean, with a helicopter dropping money over the boat, needs a yacht rental, a helicopter and permits. Until you know exactly what you're shooting, any number is a guess.

What should you look for in a line producer?

Sandy Gordon looks for someone very organized, detail-minded and able to see the bigger picture, with the confidence to tell people no, even a star who won't put on a mask. For a documentary, she suggests someone who has worked on interview-style shoots and knows the area and its equipment rentals. She also wants someone who thinks about the editor from day one, because "you can't fix everything in post."

LISTEN AND FOLLOW

Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/6a8c92

Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirst

SUPPORT THE SHOW

Rate us, share an episode, or get our free guides: https://documentaryfirst.com/pages/support

CONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRST

All platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st

Christian Taylor on LinkedIn

ABOUT THE GUEST

Sandy Gordon

Producer, and consulting producer on The Girl Who Wore Freedom

Sandy Gordon is an Emmy Award-winning producer. Her feature film work, mostly in locations departments, includes Rudy and The Hudsucker Proxy, where she also swept up the confetti used as snow on the street, and she was a production assistant and production coordinator on Return to Me. Her television work includes Party of Five. She spent several years at a post-production facility and has worked with animators and graphic designers, and she has seen what editors are left without, which is why she plans every shoot with the edit in mind. As Sandra Gordon, she wrote Action! Establishing Your Career in Film and Television Production (Applause Books), full of behind-the-scenes stories from crew members, and Great Jobs for Film Majors, now out of print. At the time of this 2021 recording, she was in the Chicago area, working at DePaul University.

MORE WITH SANDY GORDON


ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST

Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers, distributors, entertainment lawyers, actors and more, from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-timers, across nearly 300 conversations. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.

RESOURCES MENTIONED


]]>0085c1f7-5e55-4f3d-b20e-c0a77cf26522Thu, 21 Jan 2021 17:05:00 -060031:23falsefull9898Episode 97 | Industry Pro Sandy GordonEpisode 97 | Industry Pro Sandy GordonToday we’re joined by Sandy Gordon, Emmy Award winning producer and published author. We talk about her history in film production, how she got started, and what she’s been working on since.

Sandy tells us about her first BIG break working on the movie Rudy, how she got involved in TGWWF and then enlightens us about Chicago’s tax incentive for film and TV production. Lots of stuff to learn in this one!

]]>Today we’re joined by Sandy Gordon, Emmy Award winning producer and published author. We talk about her history in film production, how she got started, and what she’s been working on since.

Sandy tells us about her first BIG break working on the movie Rudy, how she got involved in TGWWF and then enlightens us about Chicago’s tax incentive for film and TV production. Lots of stuff to learn in this one!

]]>88ed9444-522c-440c-aae7-045c109587a2Thu, 14 Jan 2021 00:00:00 -060026:49falsefull9797Episode 96 | Appreciation & AnticipationEpisode 96 | Appreciation & AnticipationIn this year end podcast, we look back on what we appreciated about this crazy year and what we’re anticipating for 2021. Jason talks about being a workaholic, Josh talks about his business this year, and Christian takes inventory of her blessings.

Then we dive into what we’re anticipating. Josh talks about his plans for next year. Jason talks about agents, managers, and meetings, and Christian lists out everything happening with the film in 2021.

]]>In this year end podcast, we look back on what we appreciated about this crazy year and what we’re anticipating for 2021. Jason talks about being a workaholic, Josh talks about his business this year, and Christian takes inventory of her blessings.

Then we dive into what we’re anticipating. Josh talks about his plans for next year. Jason talks about agents, managers, and meetings, and Christian lists out everything happening with the film in 2021.

]]>6232fa8d-4453-4096-a00d-b1fa10642518Thu, 07 Jan 2021 00:07:00 -060038:23falsefull9696Episode 95 | Hopes for the New YearEpisode 95 | Hopes for the New YearThe podcast crew share hopes for the new year by thinking about the limitations, lessons, and innovations they have faced traversing the film-making and voice-over world. Also: Jason is insightful and hilarious? Find out more in this episode.

]]>The podcast crew share hopes for the new year by thinking about the limitations, lessons, and innovations they have faced traversing the film-making and voice-over world. Also: Jason is insightful and hilarious? Find out more in this episode.

]]>5d619629-4078-414d-b67b-d73490f95304Thu, 31 Dec 2020 02:59:00 -060001:05:58falsefull9595Episode 94 | What's Next?Episode 94 | What's Next?Today we talk about “the next thing”. What will that look like? Financially, distribution wise? Production wise? When is Christian no longer a first time filmmaker?

And what in the world is going on in the film industry right now?! It's like the Wild West out there! What’s the ongoing trend for filmmaking and movie studios, film festivals, movie theaters and what does that mean for independent filmmakers?

Christian, Josh and Jason talk through some of the different streaming services, distribution plans, changes to movie theaters, and speculate about the future of traditional distribution. They don't seem to have any definitive answers but they are good questions for any filmmaker to ponder!

Happy Holidays!

]]>Today we talk about “the next thing”. What will that look like? Financially, distribution wise? Production wise? When is Christian no longer a first time filmmaker?

And what in the world is going on in the film industry right now?! It's like the Wild West out there! What’s the ongoing trend for filmmaking and movie studios, film festivals, movie theaters and what does that mean for independent filmmakers?

Christian, Josh and Jason talk through some of the different streaming services, distribution plans, changes to movie theaters, and speculate about the future of traditional distribution. They don't seem to have any definitive answers but they are good questions for any filmmaker to ponder!

Happy Holidays!

]]>3389a715-5217-4ace-92fc-2cc0d3496bc7Thu, 24 Dec 2020 14:01:00 -060044:44falsefull9494Episode 93 | Biz Advice That Doesn't SuckEpisode 93 | Biz Advice That Doesn't SuckThis is an interview with Mark McClain the author of Joy and Success at Work: Building organizations that don't suck (the life out of people).

This will be a tie into our recent business conversations... how do you build a business that will be a blessing to the employees and investors.

]]>This is an interview with Mark McClain the author of Joy and Success at Work: Building organizations that don't suck (the life out of people).

This will be a tie into our recent business conversations... how do you build a business that will be a blessing to the employees and investors.

]]>8e4c52f1-3420-429a-9a91-9a3c691b8bc3Thu, 17 Dec 2020 04:31:00 -060052:49falsefull9393Episode 92 | Graphic Design for Films?Episode 92 | Graphic Design for Films?Today we’re joined by Emily Mixter, The Girl who Wore Freedom’s Graphic Designer. Emily fills us in on on how she joined the project, why she does volunteer graphic design, branding, and any place graphic design was needed.

We talk through Emily’s process, picking color palettes, fonts, and how she makes decisions based on future designs, like for Social Media, Posters, Clothing, etc.

]]>Today we’re joined by Emily Mixter, The Girl who Wore Freedom’s Graphic Designer. Emily fills us in on on how she joined the project, why she does volunteer graphic design, branding, and any place graphic design was needed.

We talk through Emily’s process, picking color palettes, fonts, and how she makes decisions based on future designs, like for Social Media, Posters, Clothing, etc.

]]>1e7e8521-9231-46e3-9927-de2cd4304ef3Wed, 09 Dec 2020 19:23:00 -060036:02falsefull9292Episode 91 | The 7 Ps!Episode 91 | The 7 Ps!The Business of Documentaries

Hunter's back to talk shop, but first Christian gives some sage advice about how life does not stop during the filming of a movie.

Hunter shares what he’s learned from working on the film, and film festivals. We discuss distribution plans, ways to monetize your current project, and the significance of surrounding yourself with a supportive team.

Check out the job postings on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/normandy-project-llc/jobs/

]]>The Business of Documentaries

Hunter's back to talk shop, but first Christian gives some sage advice about how life does not stop during the filming of a movie.

Hunter shares what he’s learned from working on the film, and film festivals. We discuss distribution plans, ways to monetize your current project, and the significance of surrounding yourself with a supportive team.

Check out the job postings on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/normandy-project-llc/jobs/

]]>3105eb81-0561-4226-9525-d3710aead6f7Thu, 03 Dec 2020 04:33:00 -060025:19falsefull9191Episode 90 | Jason's JourneyEpisode 90 | Jason's JourneyJosh is out! Christian's on pain meds, and Jason is tired. But this week, we made it happen! Christian gives us some great news about some festivals, and then we do things a little differently, as Christian interviews Jason about his journey as a creative.

]]>Josh is out! Christian's on pain meds, and Jason is tired. But this week, we made it happen! Christian gives us some great news about some festivals, and then we do things a little differently, as Christian interviews Jason about his journey as a creative.

]]>8d995e1e-f4f0-4074-afff-1405c173dba4Wed, 25 Nov 2020 21:55:00 -060024:26falsefull9090Episode 89 | Entertainment LawEpisode 89 | Entertainment LawChristian’s back home, but Josh isn’t! Christian fills us in on some updates from the film festival this last week, and some of the pitfalls encountered. But, it comes with some great news!

Then we’re joined by John Scanlon, who’s operating as the entertainment lawyer for The Girl Who Wore Freedom. We hear about his story, how he joined the project, and some of his own films. He advises when to bring legal counsel on board. If you’re looking to get in touch with John, reach out: John@Scanlon.com

]]>Christian’s back home, but Josh isn’t! Christian fills us in on some updates from the film festival this last week, and some of the pitfalls encountered. But, it comes with some great news!

Then we’re joined by John Scanlon, who’s operating as the entertainment lawyer for The Girl Who Wore Freedom. We hear about his story, how he joined the project, and some of his own films. He advises when to bring legal counsel on board. If you’re looking to get in touch with John, reach out: John@Scanlon.com

]]>d6ae9d68-1de6-4f42-8631-d878d229f295Thu, 19 Nov 2020 16:57:00 -060046:23falsefull8989Episode 88 | Intellectual PropertyEpisode 88 | Intellectual PropertyChristian’s off in Utah! For the Red Rock Film Festival, and indeed, the rocks are red. Christian lets us know how the festival is going so far, the differences in the times of COVID, and some of the films that have been shown already.

And, did the film get into a new festival? Yes it did! In Montana! In… January.

Then we’re joined by a special guest Treavor Schmitt tof H. Hutchison, PLLC to talk IP lawyer-ing. What is IP? What does an IP lawyer do and why does a filmmaker need one? Oh! And how much does it cost?

]]>Christian’s off in Utah! For the Red Rock Film Festival, and indeed, the rocks are red. Christian lets us know how the festival is going so far, the differences in the times of COVID, and some of the films that have been shown already.

And, did the film get into a new festival? Yes it did! In Montana! In… January.

Then we’re joined by a special guest Treavor Schmitt tof H. Hutchison, PLLC to talk IP lawyer-ing. What is IP? What does an IP lawyer do and why does a filmmaker need one? Oh! And how much does it cost?

]]>26db6312-05d2-4866-8e99-2234527c91cfThu, 12 Nov 2020 06:20:00 -060045:31falsefull8888Episode 87 | Lawyers! Film Festivals! Utah! Oh My.Episode 87 | Lawyers! Film Festivals! Utah! Oh My.WGA Registration! Lawyers! Film Festivals! Utah! My, oh, my, what a podcast. What is the difference between an Entertainment Lawyer and an IP Lawyer? What new festivals are TGWWF being submitted to? Christian digs into the deal from Gravitas, red flags in the deal, and what she’s taking away from it.

]]>WGA Registration! Lawyers! Film Festivals! Utah! My, oh, my, what a podcast. What is the difference between an Entertainment Lawyer and an IP Lawyer? What new festivals are TGWWF being submitted to? Christian digs into the deal from Gravitas, red flags in the deal, and what she’s taking away from it.

]]>d294fae9-0d86-4aed-a40a-6ed87b54fd22Thu, 05 Nov 2020 17:41:00 -060030:59falsefull8787Episode 86 | Tech, ToDos & TroubleEpisode 86 | Tech, ToDos & TroubleLA Femme International Film Festival proves to be a learning experience. Christian learns how new tech can cause issues, why she needs a copyright for her film, and how different festival producers affect the feel of the program.

Get 10% off all items at the Girl Who Wore Freedom Store using code: FESTIVAL

]]>LA Femme International Film Festival proves to be a learning experience. Christian learns how new tech can cause issues, why she needs a copyright for her film, and how different festival producers affect the feel of the program.

Get 10% off all items at the Girl Who Wore Freedom Store using code: FESTIVAL

]]>a5f7fca1-af3e-4e14-bc8f-99f96525bbcdFri, 30 Oct 2020 17:00:00 -050039:40falsefull8686Episode 85 | Emerging!Episode 85 | Emerging!Christian gives a summary of all the exciting happenings during the Chagrin Doc Fest. Listen to hear about new awards, press, and distribution deals for "The Girl Who Wore Freedom" movie.

]]>Christian gives a summary of all the exciting happenings during the Chagrin Doc Fest. Listen to hear about new awards, press, and distribution deals for "The Girl Who Wore Freedom" movie.

]]>a822ea8c-1680-4002-bd3d-0664edb9395aThu, 22 Oct 2020 07:02:00 -050035:17falsefull8585Episode 84 | In ChagrinEpisode 84 | In ChagrinChristian’s in Chagrin Falls Ohio, for a little slice of Chagrin, Chagrin Documentary Film Festival that is. Christian fills us in on the history of the Chagrin Doc fest and then... some awards?! The Lady Filmmakers festival had some good news. We talk about film festival politics, festival boards, festival lobbying, etc.

]]>Christian’s in Chagrin Falls Ohio, for a little slice of Chagrin, Chagrin Documentary Film Festival that is. Christian fills us in on the history of the Chagrin Doc fest and then... some awards?! The Lady Filmmakers festival had some good news. We talk about film festival politics, festival boards, festival lobbying, etc.

]]>3219509f-31b5-4bab-98ef-c38785177d68Thu, 15 Oct 2020 22:38:00 -050039:22falsefull8484Episode 83 | Pit Stop Episode 83 | Pit StopWith Boston behind them, Hunter and Christian return home for a brief pit stop before heading out to Chagrin Falls, OH for the Chagrin Documentary Festival. We hear a report from Boston, learn more about sales agents, get a distribution update and learn what to expect from a Drive-In Festival!

]]>With Boston behind them, Hunter and Christian return home for a brief pit stop before heading out to Chagrin Falls, OH for the Chagrin Documentary Festival. We hear a report from Boston, learn more about sales agents, get a distribution update and learn what to expect from a Drive-In Festival!

]]>5b0b20b6-c871-4745-b751-cff7a2a88a57Thu, 08 Oct 2020 06:17:00 -050036:03falsefull8383Episode 82 | On the Road Episode 82 | On the RoadTGWWF is on the road! Look behind the scenes of the journey to our U.S. premiere at the Boston Film Festival. This year, audiences have shrunk, but Christian still gets to experience the live event with her son, Hunter. Jason and Josh finish up the podcast without Christian, discussing upcoming film festivals and reveal a new addition to the team.

]]>TGWWF is on the road! Look behind the scenes of the journey to our U.S. premiere at the Boston Film Festival. This year, audiences have shrunk, but Christian still gets to experience the live event with her son, Hunter. Jason and Josh finish up the podcast without Christian, discussing upcoming film festivals and reveal a new addition to the team.

]]>43cc7009-ea33-4698-a20d-2354fe4da76eThu, 01 Oct 2020 02:07:00 -050012:01falsefull8282Episode 81 | Festival Run Begins!Episode 81 | Festival Run Begins!Today, we’re getting a huge update about the film and the film festival run!

But before we get to the exciting stuff, we have to talk about the business stuff. Hunter has been at the helm of supporting Christian with managing workflows.

Christian talks deliverables, the different pieces you have to deliver to a festival or distributor. It involves getting file types, posters, and Blu-ray discs made; Some fun coincidences happen along the way!

Then, Christian walks us through the screening timeline, which you can check out on the website here: https://thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/festivals/

]]>Today, we’re getting a huge update about the film and the film festival run!

But before we get to the exciting stuff, we have to talk about the business stuff. Hunter has been at the helm of supporting Christian with managing workflows.

Christian talks deliverables, the different pieces you have to deliver to a festival or distributor. It involves getting file types, posters, and Blu-ray discs made; Some fun coincidences happen along the way!

Then, Christian walks us through the screening timeline, which you can check out on the website here: https://thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/festivals/

]]>d0dd2286-5f05-4141-b1ce-184e1a3dec9dTue, 22 Sep 2020 06:30:00 -050029:23falsefull8181Episode 80 | David Paterson is Back!Episode 80 | David Paterson is Back!David Paterson joins the discussion of moments leading up to the much anticipated Official Selection screenings! The USA Premiere of TGWWF is quickly approaching as the Boston Film Festival will host the USA Premiere in less than a week on September 24! The Lady Filmmakers Festival in Los Angeles screens the day after on September 25 with a panel including editor Bill Ebel, and special guests all the way from France, Flo and Dany. Christian Taylor plans to attend the World Premiere at the Chagrin Documentary Film Festival in Ohio on October 10, 2020.

Christian explains what it takes to obtain a quick turnaround on deliverables film festivals may ask for. David Paterson presents the big picture of this year's circumstances causing many to adopt a mentality similar to a herd of cattle.

]]>David Paterson joins the discussion of moments leading up to the much anticipated Official Selection screenings! The USA Premiere of TGWWF is quickly approaching as the Boston Film Festival will host the USA Premiere in less than a week on September 24! The Lady Filmmakers Festival in Los Angeles screens the day after on September 25 with a panel including editor Bill Ebel, and special guests all the way from France, Flo and Dany. Christian Taylor plans to attend the World Premiere at the Chagrin Documentary Film Festival in Ohio on October 10, 2020.

Christian explains what it takes to obtain a quick turnaround on deliverables film festivals may ask for. David Paterson presents the big picture of this year's circumstances causing many to adopt a mentality similar to a herd of cattle.

]]>ce514a2a-eab6-4810-b639-236da17efecbFri, 18 Sep 2020 06:58:00 -050030:44falsefull8080Episode 79 | HunterEpisode 79 | HunterAfter an update on film festivals, we’re joined by Hunter, the new Head of Business Operations for The Girl Who Wore Freedom. Hunter joined the Army in 2012, serving 4 years in active duty, then transferred to the national guard and recently received a bachelor's degree in business. How did COVID-19 mess up his timelines and plans, and how did he end up working on Christian’s film?

Hint: Hunter is the reason why Christian visited Normandy at the D-Day celebrations.

Watch this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/thegirlwhoworefreedom.

Want to help us make the film? Please visit thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>After an update on film festivals, we’re joined by Hunter, the new Head of Business Operations for The Girl Who Wore Freedom. Hunter joined the Army in 2012, serving 4 years in active duty, then transferred to the national guard and recently received a bachelor's degree in business. How did COVID-19 mess up his timelines and plans, and how did he end up working on Christian’s film?

Hint: Hunter is the reason why Christian visited Normandy at the D-Day celebrations.

Watch this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/thegirlwhoworefreedom.

Want to help us make the film? Please visit thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>96e71b9f-171d-47b9-abdb-8b544f616657Fri, 11 Sep 2020 08:00:00 -050045:26falsefull7979Episode 78 | Nicole Bernardi-ReisEpisode 78 | Nicole Bernardi-ReisWe begin with exciting film updates, acceptance speeches, & new team members! Then, we’re joined by Nicole Bernardi-Reis: a producer & director known for The Unborn (2009), The Shopping Detective (2007), & Princess Cyd (2017).

Nicole emphasizes the importance of setting goals for yourself, the film, & distribution.

Watch this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/thegirlwhoworefreedom.

Want to help us make the film? Please visit thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>We begin with exciting film updates, acceptance speeches, & new team members! Then, we’re joined by Nicole Bernardi-Reis: a producer & director known for The Unborn (2009), The Shopping Detective (2007), & Princess Cyd (2017).

Nicole emphasizes the importance of setting goals for yourself, the film, & distribution.

Watch this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/thegirlwhoworefreedom.

Want to help us make the film? Please visit thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>fdf3769c-3c56-40f1-bd16-e334ecf834d3Fri, 04 Sep 2020 08:00:00 -050039:24falsefull7878Episode 77 | A Film's PosterityEpisode 77 | A Film's PosterityIn this episode, we’re talking about the long-term relationship with a film/filmmaker. David Patterson is back to talk us through what that’s like, and answer some of our questions.

But, before we get to all that, we get an update on the film, festival acceptances/rejections, and some unusual reviews!

Watch this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/thegirlwhoworefreedom.

Want to help us make the film? Please visit thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>In this episode, we’re talking about the long-term relationship with a film/filmmaker. David Patterson is back to talk us through what that’s like, and answer some of our questions.

But, before we get to all that, we get an update on the film, festival acceptances/rejections, and some unusual reviews!

Watch this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/thegirlwhoworefreedom.

Want to help us make the film? Please visit thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>74aa43af-0684-4774-8a42-be851d003c46Fri, 28 Aug 2020 08:00:00 -050038:45falsefull7777Episode 76 | First-time Filmmaker Elise JaffeEpisode 76 | First-time Filmmaker Elise JaffeOur film was accepted into two film festivals & we have another first-time filmmaker to interview! Elise Jaffe is making a feature documentary about using tattoos to reclaim your body after trauma or illness.

Elise takes us on her journey of pre-production & what she’s learned listening to this podcast. Learn more at her website: Big Teeth Productions.

Watch this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/thegirlwhoworefreedom.

Want to help us make the film? Please visit thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>Our film was accepted into two film festivals & we have another first-time filmmaker to interview! Elise Jaffe is making a feature documentary about using tattoos to reclaim your body after trauma or illness.

Elise takes us on her journey of pre-production & what she’s learned listening to this podcast. Learn more at her website: Big Teeth Productions.

Watch this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/thegirlwhoworefreedom.

Want to help us make the film? Please visit thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>4f43f10a-38c4-4933-aeed-ec720ea09e73Fri, 21 Aug 2020 08:00:00 -050039:05falsefull7676Episode 75 | Winning Awards!Episode 75 | Winning Awards!Our own first-time filmmaker Christian Taylor and Lead Composer Jeff Kurtenacker won awards in film festivals! They fill us in on what it feels like to be selected, nominated, and finally win! Jeff tells us about the emotional journey, particularly when the country hosting the festival is 7 hours ahead of you.

Watch this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/thegirlwhoworefreedom.

Want to help us make the film? Please visit thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>Our own first-time filmmaker Christian Taylor and Lead Composer Jeff Kurtenacker won awards in film festivals! They fill us in on what it feels like to be selected, nominated, and finally win! Jeff tells us about the emotional journey, particularly when the country hosting the festival is 7 hours ahead of you.

Watch this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/thegirlwhoworefreedom.

Want to help us make the film? Please visit thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>97e4bc56-5f71-400c-a7cf-d161d6932dcbFri, 14 Aug 2020 08:00:00 -050055:47falsefull7575Episode 74 | Hello from FranceEpisode 74 | Hello from FranceToday we’re joined by Flo and Jenny all the way from France! We learn how Flo is uniquely gifted to ask Veterans questions because of his genuine care, interest, and respect for them... and his tips apply to any interview you need to do! We'll also hear about the COVID situation in France and Flo and Jenny's very unique love story.

Watch this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/thegirlwhoworefreedom.

Want to help us make the film? Please visit thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>Today we’re joined by Flo and Jenny all the way from France! We learn how Flo is uniquely gifted to ask Veterans questions because of his genuine care, interest, and respect for them... and his tips apply to any interview you need to do! We'll also hear about the COVID situation in France and Flo and Jenny's very unique love story.

Watch this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/thegirlwhoworefreedom.

Want to help us make the film? Please visit thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>bede6c2a-a12d-4cfa-a4ca-b4ee1df7b56eFri, 07 Aug 2020 08:00:00 -050057:47falsefull7474Episode 73 | Don't be a SuckerEpisode 73 | Don't be a SuckerToday we get some updates about Film Festivals, talk distribution again, and a very specific film festival acceptance. COVID-19 feels like a huge opportunity to scam filmmakers out of money, time, and dreams. Christian brings up the reputability of film festivals, and David educates us on not being a sucker.

Watch this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/thegirlwhoworefreedom.

Want to help us make the film? Please visit thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>Today we get some updates about Film Festivals, talk distribution again, and a very specific film festival acceptance. COVID-19 feels like a huge opportunity to scam filmmakers out of money, time, and dreams. Christian brings up the reputability of film festivals, and David educates us on not being a sucker.

Watch this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/thegirlwhoworefreedom.

Want to help us make the film? Please visit thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>d5239068-e0c5-4ba2-b61b-03dab3d453acFri, 31 Jul 2020 08:00:00 -050043:42falsefull7373Episode 72 | DistributionEpisode 72 | DistributionToday we’re talking about distribution, what is it, how does it happen, and how should you approach a distribution deal.

We talk about what to look out for, why ‘Hollywood math’ doesn’t mean what you think it means, and why distributors need to try to sell the FILMMAKER, not the other way around.

Also, gameshows, dancing babies, robbing banks, and a little bit of everything.

Watch this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/thegirlwhoworefreedom.

Want to help us make the film? Please visit thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>Today we’re talking about distribution, what is it, how does it happen, and how should you approach a distribution deal.

We talk about what to look out for, why ‘Hollywood math’ doesn’t mean what you think it means, and why distributors need to try to sell the FILMMAKER, not the other way around.

Also, gameshows, dancing babies, robbing banks, and a little bit of everything.

Watch this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/thegirlwhoworefreedom.

Want to help us make the film? Please visit thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>f33b0fb9-7f42-47b2-a26e-c68294f0e482Fri, 24 Jul 2020 08:00:00 -050037:18falsefull7272Episode 71 | Why Back Out of a Festival?Episode 71 | Why Back Out of a Festival?David Paterson is back with us again. We’re stuck in a weird gray area with film festivals, some canceling, some extending, some going online, so what do we do? When and why do you pull out of film festivals? How does the screener process work, why are some festivals making it impossible to pull your film?

ALSO, the film won an award??? Apparently?? But it’s a little weird… let’s talk about it.

Watch this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/thegirlwhoworefreedom.

Want to help us make the film? Please visit thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>David Paterson is back with us again. We’re stuck in a weird gray area with film festivals, some canceling, some extending, some going online, so what do we do? When and why do you pull out of film festivals? How does the screener process work, why are some festivals making it impossible to pull your film?

ALSO, the film won an award??? Apparently?? But it’s a little weird… let’s talk about it.

Watch this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/thegirlwhoworefreedom.

Want to help us make the film? Please visit thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>69ab3265-edac-41d7-a165-533b23bf0255Fri, 17 Jul 2020 08:00:00 -050021:25falsefull7171Episode 70 | What do Publicists do?Episode 70 | What do Publicists do?In this episode, we meet The Girl Who Wore Freedom's Publicist, Morgan Harris. Listen in as he shares the importance of focusing on messaging and building relationships with reporters. What are some elements of a successful campaign and how does it work? What's different in the new normal of COVID-19?

Learn more about Morgan's company: https://www.acaciaconsultinggroup.com.

Watch this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/thegirlwhoworefreedom.

Want to help us make the film? Please visit thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>In this episode, we meet The Girl Who Wore Freedom's Publicist, Morgan Harris. Listen in as he shares the importance of focusing on messaging and building relationships with reporters. What are some elements of a successful campaign and how does it work? What's different in the new normal of COVID-19?

Learn more about Morgan's company: https://www.acaciaconsultinggroup.com.

Watch this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/thegirlwhoworefreedom.

Want to help us make the film? Please visit thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>432c7823-cc00-4061-98c6-90b5fb060b4aFri, 10 Jul 2020 08:00:00 -050037:11falsefull7070Episode 69 | Meet the New Content Creation TeamEpisode 69 | Meet The Girl Who Wore Freedom Social Media Content Creation TeamIn this episode, we meet the New Content Creation Team for The Girl Who Wore Freedom: Kyler Redding & Sam King. Even though the film is "done" there's still a ton of content needed to promote it. Why did they volunteer & how are their videos making a difference for engaging the audience?

Watch this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/thegirlwhoworefreedom.

Want to help us make the film? Please visit thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>In this episode, we meet the New Content Creation Team for The Girl Who Wore Freedom: Kyler Redding & Sam King. Even though the film is "done" there's still a ton of content needed to promote it. Why did they volunteer & how are their videos making a difference for engaging the audience?

Watch this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/thegirlwhoworefreedom.

Want to help us make the film? Please visit thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>335d2303-25de-4eeb-a680-5e8b0e530683Fri, 03 Jul 2020 08:00:00 -050040:25falsefull6969Episode 68 | Audio is KingEpisode 68 | Audio is KingIn this extra-long episode, we have a full house with guests Bill Ebel, Jeff Kurtenacker, and Jason Hoban to discuss the understated importance of great audio. How did they all work together to maintain audio clarity and natural-sounding foley sound effects (on a budget)?

Watch this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/thegirlwhoworefreedom.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>In this extra-long episode, we have a full house with guests Bill Ebel, Jeff Kurtenacker, and Jason Hoban to discuss the understated importance of great audio. How did they all work together to maintain audio clarity and natural-sounding foley sound effects (on a budget)?

Watch this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/thegirlwhoworefreedom.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>e4f23913-7046-4da5-8112-ab39b490e5c6Fri, 26 Jun 2020 08:00:00 -050044:28falsefull6868Episode 67 | FinalizedEpisode 67 | FinalizedDirector Christian Taylor is about to complete her first documentary... for the eighth time! Because, as it turns out, finalizing a film with so many moving parts is very difficult. Hear how it's all come together and what you should look out for.

Watch this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/thegirlwhoworefreedom.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>Director Christian Taylor is about to complete her first documentary... for the eighth time! Because, as it turns out, finalizing a film with so many moving parts is very difficult. Hear how it's all come together and what you should look out for.

Watch this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/thegirlwhoworefreedom.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>379908a1-6004-4133-b7b8-cc554090e3b1Fri, 19 Jun 2020 08:00:00 -050021:49falsefull6767Episode 66 | Social Media Team (of Friends)Episode 66 | Social Media Team (of Friends)We're joined this week by some volunteers from The Girl Who Wore Freedom social media team: Rebekah Ueland, Bethany Villero, and David Needham. Listen in on how they first discovered the film, how they quickly became friends, and hear the results of their hard work!

Watch this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/thegirlwhoworefreedom.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>We're joined this week by some volunteers from The Girl Who Wore Freedom social media team: Rebekah Ueland, Bethany Villero, and David Needham. Listen in on how they first discovered the film, how they quickly became friends, and hear the results of their hard work!

Watch this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/thegirlwhoworefreedom.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>32f80c3d-2c9c-46f0-a04e-d75fd1883a75Fri, 12 Jun 2020 08:00:00 -050031:46falsefull6666Episode 65 | Jeff & BillEpisode 65 | Jeff & Bill Jeff Kurtenacker (our Lead Composer) and Bill Ebel (our Lead Editor) each have their own featured interviews on this podcast that left many lingering questions. Last week, Jeff was asking the questions, but this week it is Bill's turn.

Watch this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaLay3EM9WBy1kym8lpd-lw.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]> Jeff Kurtenacker (our Lead Composer) and Bill Ebel (our Lead Editor) each have their own featured interviews on this podcast that left many lingering questions. Last week, Jeff was asking the questions, but this week it is Bill's turn.

Watch this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaLay3EM9WBy1kym8lpd-lw.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>fe303f1e-2d0d-41a7-9a07-bc5e6612a90cFri, 05 Jun 2020 08:00:00 -050025:05falsefull6565Episode 64 | Bill & JeffEpisode 64 | Bill & Jeff Bill Ebel (our Lead Editor) and Jeff Kurtenacker (our Lead Composer) each have their own featured interviews on this podcast. But after listening to each other's episodes they were left with many questions that had to be answered. Join us next week for part 2!

Watch this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaLay3EM9WBy1kym8lpd-lw.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]> Bill Ebel (our Lead Editor) and Jeff Kurtenacker (our Lead Composer) each have their own featured interviews on this podcast. But after listening to each other's episodes they were left with many questions that had to be answered. Join us next week for part 2!

Watch this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaLay3EM9WBy1kym8lpd-lw.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>3748269a-280e-4874-948c-9aaf0896b49eFri, 29 May 2020 08:00:00 -050021:21falsefull6464Episode 63 | Festival StrategyEpisode 63 | Festival StrategyAs film festivals transition to screening online, should we expect them to pick different kinds of films? In this episode, Christian Taylor and David Paterson share news of their first festival rejection and how they've been adjusting their strategy.

Watch this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaLay3EM9WBy1kym8lpd-lw.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>As film festivals transition to screening online, should we expect them to pick different kinds of films? In this episode, Christian Taylor and David Paterson share news of their first festival rejection and how they've been adjusting their strategy.

Watch this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaLay3EM9WBy1kym8lpd-lw.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>3399b81e-7b04-40d3-9853-f69c2617de77Fri, 22 May 2020 08:00:00 -050042:41falsefull6363Episode 62 | David PatersonEpisode 62 | David PatersonMeet David Paterson: pro stunt man, volunteer firefighter, park commissioner, playwright, stay-at-home dad, and last but not least, Executive Producer on The Girl Who Wore Freedom! David is a man with connections and his vast movie experience has been crucial to our success.

Watch this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaLay3EM9WBy1kym8lpd-lw.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>Meet David Paterson: pro stunt man, volunteer firefighter, park commissioner, playwright, stay-at-home dad, and last but not least, Executive Producer on The Girl Who Wore Freedom! David is a man with connections and his vast movie experience has been crucial to our success.

Watch this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaLay3EM9WBy1kym8lpd-lw.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>c579cc9c-9508-4241-b1c5-62ffad803197Fri, 15 May 2020 08:00:00 -050047:07falsefull6262Episode 61 | Jeff KurtenackerEpisode 61 | Jeff KurtenackerIn this episode, we speak with Jeff Kurtenacker, the Lead Composer of The Girl Who Wore Freedom. Jeff has over 15 of experience composing music for video games and other media, so what brought him to volunteer for our film? (And why did he try to quit?)

Watch this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaLay3EM9WBy1kym8lpd-lw.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>In this episode, we speak with Jeff Kurtenacker, the Lead Composer of The Girl Who Wore Freedom. Jeff has over 15 of experience composing music for video games and other media, so what brought him to volunteer for our film? (And why did he try to quit?)

Watch this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaLay3EM9WBy1kym8lpd-lw.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>8ff61e6d-cb49-45ff-9938-d7120d2874daFri, 08 May 2020 08:00:00 -050042:21falsefull6161Episode 60 | Bill EbelEpisode 60 | Bill EbelIn this episode, we speak with Bill Ebel, the Lead Editor of The Girl Who Wore Freedom. Bill is an award-winning editor who played an invaluable role on our film. Listen in to hear how he helped our first-time filmmaker level up!

Want to see the video version of this episode? Check out our YouTube page: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaLay3EM9WBy1kym8lpd-lw.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>In this episode, we speak with Bill Ebel, the Lead Editor of The Girl Who Wore Freedom. Bill is an award-winning editor who played an invaluable role on our film. Listen in to hear how he helped our first-time filmmaker level up!

Want to see the video version of this episode? Check out our YouTube page: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaLay3EM9WBy1kym8lpd-lw.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>9e05fb87-49ac-4f08-be1e-99c50cbe7acfFri, 01 May 2020 08:00:00 -050037:45falsefull6060Episode 59 | Fan MailEpisode 59 | Fan MailIn this episode, Director Christian Taylor shares an update on financial assistance, takes some important time to read and discuss fan mail, and answer some questions from the audience.

Want to see the video version of this episode? Be sure to check out our YouTube page: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaLay3EM9WBy1kym8lpd-lw.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>In this episode, Director Christian Taylor shares an update on financial assistance, takes some important time to read and discuss fan mail, and answer some questions from the audience.

Want to see the video version of this episode? Be sure to check out our YouTube page: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaLay3EM9WBy1kym8lpd-lw.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>8ca2faf7-25df-4216-89e5-c94390c38e58Fri, 24 Apr 2020 08:00:00 -050033:39falsefull5959Episode 58 | COVID-19Episode 58 | COVID-19A lot has changed in the past month. In this episode, hosts Jason Rugg, Josh Lindsey, and Christian Taylor chat (online via Zoom) about the current status of The Girl Who Wore Freedom and how film festivals and so much more have taken an unexpected twist now that we're all sheltering in place.

Want to see the video version of this episode? Be sure to check out our YouTube page: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaLay3EM9WBy1kym8lpd-lw.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>A lot has changed in the past month. In this episode, hosts Jason Rugg, Josh Lindsey, and Christian Taylor chat (online via Zoom) about the current status of The Girl Who Wore Freedom and how film festivals and so much more have taken an unexpected twist now that we're all sheltering in place.

Want to see the video version of this episode? Be sure to check out our YouTube page: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaLay3EM9WBy1kym8lpd-lw.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>3ae33838-1a63-4566-a7a7-36031769623bFri, 17 Apr 2020 08:00:00 -050016:48falsefull5858Episode 57 | MichelinEpisode 57 | MichelinIn this episode, Director Christian Taylor shares what it was like to visit Michelin for events to honor veterans and run a focus group event for her film: The Girl Who Wore Freedom.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>In this episode, Director Christian Taylor shares what it was like to visit Michelin for events to honor veterans and run a focus group event for her film: The Girl Who Wore Freedom.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>6d23da99-c2ee-4069-90c6-5b733da9a06bFri, 10 Apr 2020 08:00:00 -050010:31falsefull5757Episode 56 | BirthEpisode 56 | BirthIn what ways are the final production of a documentary film like giving birth? In this episode, Director of The Girl Who Wore Freedom Christian Taylor shares the analogy and exciting opportunities with Michelin as we continue to move ever closer to being complete.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>In what ways are the final production of a documentary film like giving birth? In this episode, Director of The Girl Who Wore Freedom Christian Taylor shares the analogy and exciting opportunities with Michelin as we continue to move ever closer to being complete.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>5af43c56-d5af-441b-bbd7-219bd42c45cbFri, 03 Apr 2020 08:00:00 -050013:52falsefull5656Episode 55 | Film FestivalsEpisode 55 | Film FestivalsIn this episode, Director of The Girl Who Wore Freedom Christian Taylor shares with her cohosts exactly how she was invited to submit to a staggering number of film festivals (many with fee waivers)! How important is the world premiere and which festival should have that honor?

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>In this episode, Director of The Girl Who Wore Freedom Christian Taylor shares with her cohosts exactly how she was invited to submit to a staggering number of film festivals (many with fee waivers)! How important is the world premiere and which festival should have that honor?

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>0fd3fcd3-0e6c-4d23-bcca-610f4b159a2aFri, 27 Mar 2020 08:00:00 -050019:54falsefull5555Episode 54 | ReenactorsEpisode 54 | ReenactorsIn the last episode, we met Flavie and Thomas: two French cast members from The Girl Who Wore Freedom who are tour guides and reenactors. Listen in as they discuss the significant role reenactments play when passing history from generation to generation and how they're able to use this experience to both relate to and thank the veterans who liberated them.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>In the last episode, we met Flavie and Thomas: two French cast members from The Girl Who Wore Freedom who are tour guides and reenactors. Listen in as they discuss the significant role reenactments play when passing history from generation to generation and how they're able to use this experience to both relate to and thank the veterans who liberated them.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>89a27f55-8ad2-4777-bc8a-3fb93e565fedFri, 20 Mar 2020 07:00:00 -050017:01falsefull5454Episode 53 | Guests from NormandyEpisode 53 | Guests from NormandyIn this episode, our hosts are joined by Flavie and Thomas: two cast members from The Girl Who Wore Freedom. These two are from Normandy, France but how they wound up staying with Christian was quite the adventure! As a result of their stay, they've played an essential role in documenting the rights and clearances for the film.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>In this episode, our hosts are joined by Flavie and Thomas: two cast members from The Girl Who Wore Freedom. These two are from Normandy, France but how they wound up staying with Christian was quite the adventure! As a result of their stay, they've played an essential role in documenting the rights and clearances for the film.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>58f08179-6f88-4257-a3a7-2fc5a2732750Fri, 13 Mar 2020 07:00:00 -050016:37falsefull5353Episode 52 | Animatic?Episode 52 | Animatic?In this episode, co-hosts Jason Rugg, Joshua Lindsay, and Christian Taylor are joined by guest Yesenia Thomas to discuss exciting plans for an animatic and where things are at with the latest cut of the film.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>In this episode, co-hosts Jason Rugg, Joshua Lindsay, and Christian Taylor are joined by guest Yesenia Thomas to discuss exciting plans for an animatic and where things are at with the latest cut of the film.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>417f4ed4-4f0a-447d-b483-f58e8c1778b2Fri, 06 Mar 2020 08:00:00 -060017:55falsefull5252Episode 51 | Learning from SundanceEpisode 51 | Learning from SundanceIn this episode, Director Christian Taylor shares what it was like to visit the Sundance Film Festival and bump into celebrities (sometimes literally)! Her documentary film, The Girl Who Wore Freedom, is almost ready to be submitted to festivals and this turned into the perfect opportunity to learn new things about the industry and the film festival process in general.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>In this episode, Director Christian Taylor shares what it was like to visit the Sundance Film Festival and bump into celebrities (sometimes literally)! Her documentary film, The Girl Who Wore Freedom, is almost ready to be submitted to festivals and this turned into the perfect opportunity to learn new things about the industry and the film festival process in general.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>2e9651f8-39bb-4077-a848-fbcf7598f7a1Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:00:00 -060014:40falsefull5151Episode 50 | Surprised by SundanceEpisode 50 | Surprised by SundanceIn this episode, Director Christian Taylor shares what it was like to take a plunge and attend the Sundance Film Festival. Listen in and hear her stories about things that she was surprised by and what she figured out not to do next year!

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>In this episode, Director Christian Taylor shares what it was like to take a plunge and attend the Sundance Film Festival. Listen in and hear her stories about things that she was surprised by and what she figured out not to do next year!

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>19a08b8d-f7f8-423c-b5dd-5ad126d261e8Fri, 21 Feb 2020 08:00:00 -060021:36falsefull5050Episode 48 | ProcessEpisode 48 | ProcessIn a previous episode, hosts Christian, Josh, and Jason discuss the important lesson of killing sacred cows (or killing your babies) in order to set aside personal emotions and improve the film. In this episode, Christian shares how this helped her find peace in pairing down even more of the film to create an even more whole representation of the story.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>In a previous episode, hosts Christian, Josh, and Jason discuss the important lesson of killing sacred cows (or killing your babies) in order to set aside personal emotions and improve the film. In this episode, Christian shares how this helped her find peace in pairing down even more of the film to create an even more whole representation of the story.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>36f19b3b-692f-471b-ab7a-ad2e3763dfa3Fri, 07 Feb 2020 08:00:00 -060019:24falsefull4848Episode 47 | Rewrite (Again)Episode 47 | Rewrite (Again)As we near the final stages of the film, Director Christian Taylor continues to get critical feedback and has to make difficult decisions. This time, more sacred cows are cut out and voiceover work is scrapped and rewritten to accommodate an accelerated pace.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>As we near the final stages of the film, Director Christian Taylor continues to get critical feedback and has to make difficult decisions. This time, more sacred cows are cut out and voiceover work is scrapped and rewritten to accommodate an accelerated pace.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>95d16461-807d-427a-88a7-700469789e65Fri, 31 Jan 2020 08:00:00 -060020:22falsefull4747Episode 46 | Critical FeedbackEpisode 46 | Critical FeedbackWhat should you do when you get critical feedback? In previous episodes, we talked about the practice of killing your babies and working with experienced consultants to make the film better. This episode is all about hearing difficult feedback and deciding to take action or "live with the flaw."

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>What should you do when you get critical feedback? In previous episodes, we talked about the practice of killing your babies and working with experienced consultants to make the film better. This episode is all about hearing difficult feedback and deciding to take action or "live with the flaw."

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>bf5f2b39-2ccc-4a3d-a938-01e9de28b577Fri, 24 Jan 2020 08:00:00 -060016:19falsefull4646Episode 45 | ConsultantsEpisode 45 | ConsultantsIt's critically important to get professional help or consulting throughout the entire process of producing a film. How else would a first time filmmaker know what to look out for when trial and error are so costly in both time and money? Is first time filmmaker Christian Taylor ready to take The Girl Who Wore Freedom to the next level or is that still a long way off?

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>It's critically important to get professional help or consulting throughout the entire process of producing a film. How else would a first time filmmaker know what to look out for when trial and error are so costly in both time and money? Is first time filmmaker Christian Taylor ready to take The Girl Who Wore Freedom to the next level or is that still a long way off?

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>83821d8c-ba28-4366-a773-b72e22bab5a9Fri, 17 Jan 2020 08:00:00 -060017:36falsefull4545Episode 44 | Picture LockEpisode 44 | Picture LockThanks to the many focus groups in 2019 Christian Taylor has accumulated a long list of things to fix and improve in The Girl Who Wore Freedom. The goal is to be "picture locked" by February 6th so that we can submit to film festivals and move on to the next stage of the project.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>Thanks to the many focus groups in 2019 Christian Taylor has accumulated a long list of things to fix and improve in The Girl Who Wore Freedom. The goal is to be "picture locked" by February 6th so that we can submit to film festivals and move on to the next stage of the project.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>fc5b3969-fd00-4891-8dc7-9251c32ae0c9Fri, 10 Jan 2020 08:00:00 -060014:17falsefull4444Episode 43 | Rights & ClearancesEpisode 43 | Rights & ClearancesWhen you're making a film, remember to take notes about the archival footage, usage rights, and sources for everything added to the film. Learn from our first time filmmaker, Christian Taylor as she talks to co-hosts Josh Lindsay and Jason Rugg about creating the "rights bible" required for proving their rights to the footage in the film.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>When you're making a film, remember to take notes about the archival footage, usage rights, and sources for everything added to the film. Learn from our first time filmmaker, Christian Taylor as she talks to co-hosts Josh Lindsay and Jason Rugg about creating the "rights bible" required for proving their rights to the footage in the film.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>b2d38839-d01f-461f-8d1e-0c72ef632ceeFri, 03 Jan 2020 08:00:00 -060022:00falsefull4343Episode 42 | Birthday in TNEpisode 42 | Birthday in TNChristian Taylor visits her family in Tennessee and (surprise, surprise), she screens the film. While she was there she hears new stories that make her start thinking about her next film. (Is there some sort of filmmakers Stockholm syndrome?) She goes on from there to an adventure with Flo Planna and ends up cleaning a world war museum's storage locker and returning home with some incredible mementos.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>Christian Taylor visits her family in Tennessee and (surprise, surprise), she screens the film. While she was there she hears new stories that make her start thinking about her next film. (Is there some sort of filmmakers Stockholm syndrome?) She goes on from there to an adventure with Flo Planna and ends up cleaning a world war museum's storage locker and returning home with some incredible mementos.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>9fb1e45e-d607-4227-8164-9bf0e07c354bFri, 27 Dec 2019 08:00:00 -060021:26falsefull4242Episode 41 | Coast to CoastEpisode 41 | Coast to CoastIn this episode, co-host and Director Christian Taylor recap focus groups events from one coast to the other: The Villages, Florida to Phelan, California. These two focus groups were on different ends of the spectrum but both very special for their own unique reasons. Listen to hear the stories and people who have helped make this possible.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>In this episode, co-host and Director Christian Taylor recap focus groups events from one coast to the other: The Villages, Florida to Phelan, California. These two focus groups were on different ends of the spectrum but both very special for their own unique reasons. Listen to hear the stories and people who have helped make this possible.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>00ce7c04-464c-461f-ae71-acee0d362ab5Fri, 20 Dec 2019 08:00:00 -060022:33falsefull4141Episode 40 | BransonEpisode 40 | BransonIn this episode, co-host and Director Christian Taylor recaps her experience running two of the most impactful focus groups so far at the Branson Military Film Festival. Hear how the original girl who wore freedom, Dani Patrix, visited from Normandy and received the key to the city.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>In this episode, co-host and Director Christian Taylor recaps her experience running two of the most impactful focus groups so far at the Branson Military Film Festival. Hear how the original girl who wore freedom, Dani Patrix, visited from Normandy and received the key to the city.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>42714570-01c2-4cc2-ad60-1be9f8d2c9b0Fri, 13 Dec 2019 08:00:00 -060014:47falsefull4040Episode 39 | CollaboratorsEpisode 39 | CollaboratorsCollaboration on a project as large as a film like The Girl Who Wore Freedom is difficult. Films take years to produce and it's natural for our priorities or goals to shift along the way. In this episode Director Christian Taylor and co-hosts Jason Rugg and Josh Lindsay discuss how to work with folks and roll with the punches.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>Collaboration on a project as large as a film like The Girl Who Wore Freedom is difficult. Films take years to produce and it's natural for our priorities or goals to shift along the way. In this episode Director Christian Taylor and co-hosts Jason Rugg and Josh Lindsay discuss how to work with folks and roll with the punches.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>0f9770cb-6dad-4a6a-a572-1644cbfddb9bFri, 06 Dec 2019 08:00:00 -060017:05falsefull3939Episode 38 | BlessingsEpisode 38 | BlessingsIn this special Thanksgiving episode, first-time filmmaker Christian Taylor looks back over the last year and shares the many things for which she's thankful.

Want to help us make the film? We need volunteers and donations to help finish work on the film. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>In this special Thanksgiving episode, first-time filmmaker Christian Taylor looks back over the last year and shares the many things for which she's thankful.

Want to help us make the film? We need volunteers and donations to help finish work on the film. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>4d3e7ee2-23a5-48f2-9dbb-5ca832d7a606Fri, 29 Nov 2019 08:00:00 -060015:02falsefull3838Episode 37 | NetworkingEpisode 37 | NetworkingIn the heat of the moment, you can feel very low when you feel like a meeting or focus group goes poorly. But it's impossible to know how a single conversation will lead to more opportunities and ultimately influence the success of your project.

Want to help us make The Girl Who Wore Freedom? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>In the heat of the moment, you can feel very low when you feel like a meeting or focus group goes poorly. But it's impossible to know how a single conversation will lead to more opportunities and ultimately influence the success of your project.

Want to help us make The Girl Who Wore Freedom? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>b0fd6301-b492-45b1-9d12-57a5fabf176cFri, 22 Nov 2019 08:00:00 -060016:53falsefull3737Episode 36 | DrowningEpisode 36 | DrowningEverything is possible, but what's best? In this episode, our hosts discuss what it feels like to make a documentary film and the multitude of options and opinions out there about what should happen next. Film festivals? The Oscars? Distribution rights? In the midst of all of the focus group events, it can be difficult to know what to do.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>Everything is possible, but what's best? In this episode, our hosts discuss what it feels like to make a documentary film and the multitude of options and opinions out there about what should happen next. Film festivals? The Oscars? Distribution rights? In the midst of all of the focus group events, it can be difficult to know what to do.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>5170131565b940e3a4b8cb15e0e62e73Fri, 15 Nov 2019 08:00:00 -060014:12falsefull3636Episode 35 | FundraisingEpisode 35 | FundraisingFundraising is tough. Even the best documentary filmmakers like Ken Burns still has trouble finding doners that make films possible. What works? Hosts Christian Taylor and Josh Lindsey share some of the things that have worked and how to brainstorm new ideas.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>Fundraising is tough. Even the best documentary filmmakers like Ken Burns still has trouble finding doners that make films possible. What works? Hosts Christian Taylor and Josh Lindsey share some of the things that have worked and how to brainstorm new ideas.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>1e992943c8ff419eb51ce0bb4edfb9ccFri, 08 Nov 2019 08:00:00 -060014:50falsefull3535Episode 34 | EntrepreneurshipEpisode 34 | EntrepreneurshipWhat does it take to be a voiceover actor? Or a film director? Or a book author? Hosts Christian Taylor and Josh Lindsey discuss entrepreneurship to highlight common skills needed for success in a multitude of careers.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>What does it take to be a voiceover actor? Or a film director? Or a book author? Hosts Christian Taylor and Josh Lindsey discuss entrepreneurship to highlight common skills needed for success in a multitude of careers.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>4ea1abf5cf254504b3bebb69126b38b7Fri, 01 Nov 2019 07:00:00 -050016:32falsefull3434Episode 33 | Book PublishingEpisode 33 | Book PublishingHave you ever wanted to write a book? In May of 2019, Christian Taylor co-authored a book with Peggy Sue Wells to give people another avenue to learn about the stories of veterans and (hopefully) raise some money for the film by the same name, The Girl Who Wore Freedom. Get the book at https://amzn.to/2HtQ9iF.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>Have you ever wanted to write a book? In May of 2019, Christian Taylor co-authored a book with Peggy Sue Wells to give people another avenue to learn about the stories of veterans and (hopefully) raise some money for the film by the same name, The Girl Who Wore Freedom. Get the book at https://amzn.to/2HtQ9iF.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>f293ce6e4e9942e59bc13bbe40b5539fFri, 25 Oct 2019 07:00:00 -050016:33falsefull3333Episode 32 | Invest in PeopleEpisode 32 | Invest in PeopleIn this episode, Director Christian Taylor shares her difficult technique for turning people into your biggest fans. Invest your time to listen to them! Hear how she came to that conclusion and all about her adventures with focus group events in TN.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>In this episode, Director Christian Taylor shares her difficult technique for turning people into your biggest fans. Invest your time to listen to them! Hear how she came to that conclusion and all about her adventures with focus group events in TN.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>14c9d74580e6425da5e2592a52b6bf5eFri, 18 Oct 2019 07:00:00 -050014:58falsefull3232Episode 31 | HomecomingEpisode 31 | HomecomingDirector Christian Taylor shares an emotional story of serendipity as she reunites two long lost brothers and brings together veterans, French families, and high schoolers for a memorable focus group event in Stoneybrook, NY.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>Director Christian Taylor shares an emotional story of serendipity as she reunites two long lost brothers and brings together veterans, French families, and high schoolers for a memorable focus group event in Stoneybrook, NY.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>314c6be611004d1eb6edef1abd1f773cFri, 11 Oct 2019 07:00:00 -050033:29falsefull3131Episode 30 | How NOT to Make a DocumentaryEpisode 30 | How NOT to Make a DocumentaryIf you're planning to make a documentary, be prepared for a lot of failure and unexpected setbacks. It takes someone like Thomas Edison (or Director Christian Taylor) to spin "1,000 mistakes" into "1,000 small steps to success". Learn some of the mistakes The Girl Who Wore Freedom has already made and what hope to do about it.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>If you're planning to make a documentary, be prepared for a lot of failure and unexpected setbacks. It takes someone like Thomas Edison (or Director Christian Taylor) to spin "1,000 mistakes" into "1,000 small steps to success". Learn some of the mistakes The Girl Who Wore Freedom has already made and what hope to do about it.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>f0a5f897d3304c5399205df5466f5460Fri, 04 Oct 2019 07:00:00 -050016:53falsefull3030Episode 29 | Killing Your BabiesEpisode 29 | Killing Your BabiesHow many times do you have to watch your dear film before you decide that it really will be okay to cut some things out? In the industry, this is referred to as "killing your babies". In this episode, Christian Taylor, Director of The Girl Who Wore Freedom shares what it's been like to respond to feedback and her own convictions about needing to shorten the film.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>How many times do you have to watch your dear film before you decide that it really will be okay to cut some things out? In the industry, this is referred to as "killing your babies". In this episode, Christian Taylor, Director of The Girl Who Wore Freedom shares what it's been like to respond to feedback and her own convictions about needing to shorten the film.

Want to help us make the film? We're looking for volunteers and need donations. Please visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>e007620b15484b2080caae65df23ded3Fri, 27 Sep 2019 07:00:00 -050015:35falsefull2929Episode 28 | RejectionEpisode 28 | RejectionWhat is something you shouldn't do when running a focus group event? In this episode, Director Christian Taylor talks about what she's learned from her recent experience attending four focus groups for The Girl Who Wore Freedom in Colorado earlier this year.

One tip: don't be afraid to ask for donations even if you'll get rejected. Speaking of which, have you considered donating to support the film? Visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>What is something you shouldn't do when running a focus group event? In this episode, Director Christian Taylor talks about what she's learned from her recent experience attending four focus groups for The Girl Who Wore Freedom in Colorado earlier this year.

One tip: don't be afraid to ask for donations even if you'll get rejected. Speaking of which, have you considered donating to support the film? Visit http://normandystories.com/donate and help us tell the veteran's stories!

]]>bac0124604b649f8acbd96a8f688a78dFri, 20 Sep 2019 07:00:00 -050014:52falsefull2828Episode 27 | Volunteers & PartnersEpisode 27 | Volunteers & PartnersProjects like The Girl Who Wore Freedom need volunteers to exist. Volunteers who are hungry for growth have many opportunities to gain real-world experience and do work they'd be proud to show others. It's a win-win situation for both parties. When should someone start getting paid for the work that they do?

And how do you find social media influencers and partners to cross-promote your work? Find out how this plan began and how we were approached by the folks at Ike's Soldiers (ikessoldiers.com).

Do you know someone with fundraising experience? The Girl Who Wore Freedom needs help and we're willing to share a percentage of proceeds to get that work done. Contact us for more information: https://www.normandystories.com/contact.

]]>Projects like The Girl Who Wore Freedom need volunteers to exist. Volunteers who are hungry for growth have many opportunities to gain real-world experience and do work they'd be proud to show others. It's a win-win situation for both parties. When should someone start getting paid for the work that they do?

And how do you find social media influencers and partners to cross-promote your work? Find out how this plan began and how we were approached by the folks at Ike's Soldiers (ikessoldiers.com).

Do you know someone with fundraising experience? The Girl Who Wore Freedom needs help and we're willing to share a percentage of proceeds to get that work done. Contact us for more information: https://www.normandystories.com/contact.

]]>473d412f6b144bb3a37d7f3fcc10bbacFri, 13 Sep 2019 07:00:00 -050014:39falsefull2727Episode 26 | MiniseriesEpisode 26 | MiniseriesWhen the idea for The Girl Who Wore Freedom was conceived a lot had to happen in a short amount of time. Now that there is a documentary of the film out there, we take stock of what we have and consider the format. What if a documentary would really work better as a three-part miniseries? What steps are necessary to get listed on Netflix, Amazon Video, or even a cable network like The History Channel? Should a documentary even consider that?

]]>When the idea for The Girl Who Wore Freedom was conceived a lot had to happen in a short amount of time. Now that there is a documentary of the film out there, we take stock of what we have and consider the format. What if a documentary would really work better as a three-part miniseries? What steps are necessary to get listed on Netflix, Amazon Video, or even a cable network like The History Channel? Should a documentary even consider that?

]]>1851473379f24574bcd6ffd9d5ff6bf9Fri, 06 Sep 2019 07:00:00 -050016:14falsefull2626Episode 25 | More Focus Group EventsEpisode 25 | More Focus Group EventsChristian has had a chance to catch her breath and is ramping up for focus group events in Denver, Colorado Springs, New York, Branson, and beyond! Find an event near you: https://normandystories.com/events.

These focus groups are being organized and spearheaded by people who are passionate about sharing The Girl Who Wore Freedom in their city and helping us raise funds to finish the film.

If you're looking to support us and get some cool clothing or souvenirs, check out the new Girl Who Wore Freedom shop: https://normandystories.com/shop.

]]>Christian has had a chance to catch her breath and is ramping up for focus group events in Denver, Colorado Springs, New York, Branson, and beyond! Find an event near you: https://normandystories.com/events.

These focus groups are being organized and spearheaded by people who are passionate about sharing The Girl Who Wore Freedom in their city and helping us raise funds to finish the film.

If you're looking to support us and get some cool clothing or souvenirs, check out the new Girl Who Wore Freedom shop: https://normandystories.com/shop.

]]>8c10a0f375414c2581b7cfbb95b50fa9Fri, 30 Aug 2019 07:00:00 -050015:16falsefull2525Episode 24 | FatigueEpisode 24 | FatigueCreating a film is exhausting. Is it even possible to take a break when you're in the midst of creating a feature-length documentary? And what do you do when you want to finish the film, but don't have the money to pay the editor and other team members to get the work done? In this episode, Christian Taylor, director of The Girl Who Wore Freedom, shares the struggle through fatigue and satisfying rewards that shine through it.

]]>Creating a film is exhausting. Is it even possible to take a break when you're in the midst of creating a feature-length documentary? And what do you do when you want to finish the film, but don't have the money to pay the editor and other team members to get the work done? In this episode, Christian Taylor, director of The Girl Who Wore Freedom, shares the struggle through fatigue and satisfying rewards that shine through it.

]]>a328c96b82b0481d8934192cbd586691Fri, 23 Aug 2019 07:00:00 -050017:17falsefull2424Episode 23 | Getting FeedbackEpisode 23 | Getting FeedbackGetting any kind of feedback is hard. If the feedback is only positive, you worry that they're just trying to make you feel good and not being authentic. But it's also really difficult to receive negative feedback! In this episode, podcast host Josh Lindsey and director Christian Taylor talk about how the Chicago focus group event went and how real-world feedback has influenced the development of the film.

]]>Getting any kind of feedback is hard. If the feedback is only positive, you worry that they're just trying to make you feel good and not being authentic. But it's also really difficult to receive negative feedback! In this episode, podcast host Josh Lindsey and director Christian Taylor talk about how the Chicago focus group event went and how real-world feedback has influenced the development of the film.

]]>68d61b6ac8814d879c55c9c05287a577Fri, 16 Aug 2019 07:00:00 -050013:08falsefull2323Episode 22 | Q&A with ChristianEpisode 22 | Q&A with ChristianIn this episode, host of the podcast Josh Lindsey asks director Christian Taylor a series of questions to better understand what went on at the Normandy focus group screening of The Girl Who Wore Freedom. We'll hear about things she would have done differently and hear about some emotional and impactful moments.

]]>In this episode, host of the podcast Josh Lindsey asks director Christian Taylor a series of questions to better understand what went on at the Normandy focus group screening of The Girl Who Wore Freedom. We'll hear about things she would have done differently and hear about some emotional and impactful moments.

]]>8a9696da0d464a5185966e084fb2c838Fri, 09 Aug 2019 07:00:00 -050018:19falsefull2222Episode 21 | Social mediaEpisode 21 | Social mediaSocial media is an important part of promoting any project, but particularly films. In this episode, we meet Anne Evans, our first social media lead and sister of Director Christian Taylor. Anne shares how she got started in this role and dissect her plan for raising money for The Girl Who Wore Freedom.

]]>Social media is an important part of promoting any project, but particularly films. In this episode, we meet Anne Evans, our first social media lead and sister of Director Christian Taylor. Anne shares how she got started in this role and dissect her plan for raising money for The Girl Who Wore Freedom.

]]>0bd61ef3a1b648188b22c1a0b82bb659Fri, 02 Aug 2019 07:00:00 -050016:37falsefull2121Episode 20 | ScreeningEpisode 20 | ScreeningWhat does it take to run a focus group screening? In this episode, Director Christian Taylor shares how the eleven screenings were planned for Normandy to gather feedback from the five-hundred people who have seen the film.

]]>What does it take to run a focus group screening? In this episode, Director Christian Taylor shares how the eleven screenings were planned for Normandy to gather feedback from the five-hundred people who have seen the film.

]]>a3cacdeb7851401e85fef92180f425baFri, 26 Jul 2019 07:00:00 -050015:32falsefull2020Episode 19 | Eleventh HourEpisode 19 | Eleventh HourDirector Christian Taylor is in France preparing to screen the film, but the drive doesn't work. In this episode, we celebrate the first focus group event of The Girl Who Wore Freedom in Normandy, France, discuss the struggle to make it a reality, and share first impressions.

]]>Director Christian Taylor is in France preparing to screen the film, but the drive doesn't work. In this episode, we celebrate the first focus group event of The Girl Who Wore Freedom in Normandy, France, discuss the struggle to make it a reality, and share first impressions.

]]>449a7dd0eb4f4ce9a90a4a6281c08d97Fri, 19 Jul 2019 07:00:00 -050017:42falsefull1919Episode 18 | Mississippi ScreeningEpisode 18 | Mississippi ScreeningIn this episode, Director Christian Taylor shares an update after visiting Mississippi and screening for veterans with dramatically moving results. Because we've been so busy with that, we're also reairing Episode 2 of the Documentary First podcast in lieu of a new episode. Check out normandystories.com for the latest information about our film.

]]>In this episode, Director Christian Taylor shares an update after visiting Mississippi and screening for veterans with dramatically moving results. Because we've been so busy with that, we're also reairing Episode 2 of the Documentary First podcast in lieu of a new episode. Check out normandystories.com for the latest information about our film.

]]>f28a828d65de4725968133f4a7037e9eFri, 12 Jul 2019 15:29:00 -050023:56falsefull1818Episode 17 | Post-Focus GroupEpisode 17 | Post-Focus GroupIn this episode, Director Christian Taylor shares an update after running a focus group for The Girl Who Wore Freedom in Normandy for D-Day Celebrations. Because we've been so busy with that, we're also reairing Episode 1 of the Documentary First podcast in lieu of a new episode. Check out normandystories.com for the latest information about our film.

]]>In this episode, Director Christian Taylor shares an update after running a focus group for The Girl Who Wore Freedom in Normandy for D-Day Celebrations. Because we've been so busy with that, we're also reairing Episode 1 of the Documentary First podcast in lieu of a new episode. Check out normandystories.com for the latest information about our film.

]]>e501ed21040d4f9dbd5f18e39c935097Fri, 05 Jul 2019 07:00:00 -050017:55falsefull1717Episode 16 | NextEpisode 16 | NextDirector Christian Taylor looks ahead to the next steps for “The Girl Who Wore Freedom” and speculates about what it will be like to watch the film at the first focus group events.

]]>Director Christian Taylor looks ahead to the next steps for “The Girl Who Wore Freedom” and speculates about what it will be like to watch the film at the first focus group events.

]]>d78fd9eeed6b4286abe253e74baef3bfFri, 28 Jun 2019 07:00:00 -050017:00falsefull1616Episode 15 | BilingualEpisode 15 | BilingualWorking with footage and audiences that represent at least two distinct languages is no small task. Director Christian Taylor talks about the complexity of subtitling and her project’s tight turnaround for sound and score.

]]>Working with footage and audiences that represent at least two distinct languages is no small task. Director Christian Taylor talks about the complexity of subtitling and her project’s tight turnaround for sound and score.

]]>937a47be54b241ba9ceb91644b139aa8Fri, 21 Jun 2019 07:00:00 -050016:36falsefull1515Episode 14 | ComposerEpisode 14 | ComposerA good composer understands both emotion and serendipity. There's no better example than how Jeff Kurtenacker came to be the Lead Composer on The Girl Who Wore Freedom. Listen in as Director Christian Taylor shares his story and how she learned to communicate with emotion.

]]>A good composer understands both emotion and serendipity. There's no better example than how Jeff Kurtenacker came to be the Lead Composer on The Girl Who Wore Freedom. Listen in as Director Christian Taylor shares his story and how she learned to communicate with emotion.

]]>73b6afc0a5d44cdc8eb6a6654723953bFri, 14 Jun 2019 07:00:00 -050016:18falsefull1414Episode 13 | ToolsEpisode 13 | ToolsWhen you're a bootstrapped documentary you sometimes have to pick free or inexpensive tools to get the job done. For The Girl Who Wore Freedom Director Christian Taylor talks about the pain of editing ("killing your babies" to get the timing and tone right) and shares some of her favorite tools that she's come to love (including Google Drive, Trello, Frame.io, and Zoom).

]]>When you're a bootstrapped documentary you sometimes have to pick free or inexpensive tools to get the job done. For The Girl Who Wore Freedom Director Christian Taylor talks about the pain of editing ("killing your babies" to get the timing and tone right) and shares some of her favorite tools that she's come to love (including Google Drive, Trello, Frame.io, and Zoom).

]]>5e33a74b4ae94c998a0f3bccd26b4a1cFri, 07 Jun 2019 07:00:00 -050015:55falsefull1313Episode 12 | EditorEpisode 12 | EditorA good editor is hard to come by and The Girl Who Wore Freedom was blessed with one of the best: Bill Ebel. Learn more as Director Christian Taylor shares her appreciation for Bill and the qualities (and hard truth) that make him the best possible editor for our documentary.

]]>A good editor is hard to come by and The Girl Who Wore Freedom was blessed with one of the best: Bill Ebel. Learn more as Director Christian Taylor shares her appreciation for Bill and the qualities (and hard truth) that make him the best possible editor for our documentary.

]]>ab1b266c50be4dbeb35cf24b03e141a4Fri, 31 May 2019 07:00:00 -050019:09falsefull1212Episode 11 | GarageEpisode 11 | GarageAll great things begin in a garage. Josh, Jason, and Director Christian Taylor explore the ins and outs of film editing from a garage in Tennessee. Christian also shares the roller-coaster that is translating, subtitling, and script-writing.

]]>All great things begin in a garage. Josh, Jason, and Director Christian Taylor explore the ins and outs of film editing from a garage in Tennessee. Christian also shares the roller-coaster that is translating, subtitling, and script-writing.

]]>a06f83bea05e423db5fd710e3772ec10Fri, 24 May 2019 08:00:00 -050019:46falsefull1111Episode 10 | BalanceEpisode 10 | BalanceIs there such thing as work/life balance in film-making? Director Christian Taylor discusses La La Land, the creative process, striking the right tone, and putting family first…always.

]]>Is there such thing as work/life balance in film-making? Director Christian Taylor discusses La La Land, the creative process, striking the right tone, and putting family first…always.

]]>e3848834ebf74ba6b2c64f4bf6ecd186Fri, 17 May 2019 18:43:00 -050019:21falsefull1010Episode 9 | Dark Night of the SoulEpisode 9 | Dark Night of the SoulWhat do you do when you're at your all time low and ready to call it quits? In this episode, producer Christian Taylor tells the story of her (extended) visit to her editor in Tennessee to get the film done, how she ran out of money, and how donors came through on the day they were going to end the project.

]]>What do you do when you're at your all time low and ready to call it quits? In this episode, producer Christian Taylor tells the story of her (extended) visit to her editor in Tennessee to get the film done, how she ran out of money, and how donors came through on the day they were going to end the project.

]]>84232d5211b543ec9e622b06f7653ffaFri, 10 May 2019 08:00:00 -050017:19falsefull99Episode 8 | RewriteEpisode 8 | RewriteIn this episode, producer Christian Taylor shares the results of her first preview of the film; and it's not good. She faces reality of deadlines, debt, and the editorial process as she considers the end of the project.

]]>In this episode, producer Christian Taylor shares the results of her first preview of the film; and it's not good. She faces reality of deadlines, debt, and the editorial process as she considers the end of the project.

]]>27bbe84b6798435dad4911faf38fb7bcFri, 03 May 2019 08:00:00 -050019:35falsefull88Episode 7 | AssemblyEpisode 7 | AssemblyA lot has developed since the last episode and the film is currently undergoing the assembly edit. In this episode you'll what that means and why everything Christian Taylor has told you up to this point is wrong.

]]>A lot has developed since the last episode and the film is currently undergoing the assembly edit. In this episode you'll what that means and why everything Christian Taylor has told you up to this point is wrong.

]]>af935ef114c3474eacbb4245ba51d92bFri, 26 Apr 2019 08:00:00 -050019:45falsefull77Episode 6 | Harry KropnickiEpisode 6 | Harry KropnickiThe wonderful story about Harry Kropnicki, Daniel Banazio and Flo Plana.

]]>The wonderful story about Harry Kropnicki, Daniel Banazio and Flo Plana.

]]>75ac2ed6363741f59eede74532d1b7d6Fri, 19 Apr 2019 08:00:00 -050012:45falsefull66Episode 5 | CutsEpisode 5 | CutsWading through 600+ hours of footage, cutting off appendages, and finding your story—we’re looking at the realities of first-time filmmaking.

]]>Wading through 600+ hours of footage, cutting off appendages, and finding your story—we’re looking at the realities of first-time filmmaking.

]]>ea3536ce848f43028d78906c3423f6c1Fri, 12 Apr 2019 08:00:00 -050020:12falsefull55Episode 4 | HelmetsEpisode 4 | HelmetsReal questions from real listeners posed to a real first-time filmmaker. Christian, Josh, and Jason explore the many uses of helmets, the smells of war, and the healing power of beer.

]]>Real questions from real listeners posed to a real first-time filmmaker. Christian, Josh, and Jason explore the many uses of helmets, the smells of war, and the healing power of beer.

]]>41924c299f924f1aac102b74576b7d3fFri, 05 Apr 2019 08:00:00 -050020:23falsefull44Episode 3 | GritEpisode 3 | GritDocumentary filmmaking takes way more than setting up a camera in a breathlessly scenic, historic destination. It starts with determination. Christian, Josh, and Jason cover the grit of getting started in filmmaking and how to craft a pitch packet.

]]>Documentary filmmaking takes way more than setting up a camera in a breathlessly scenic, historic destination. It starts with determination. Christian, Josh, and Jason cover the grit of getting started in filmmaking and how to craft a pitch packet.

]]>509a22feed6d4ebc934573bab647e642Fri, 29 Mar 2019 08:00:00 -050015:05falsefull33Episode 2 | FavoritesEpisode 2 | FavoritesChristian, Josh, and Jason explore their all-time favorite documentaries and the inspirations for “The Girl Who Wore Freedom” film.

]]>Christian, Josh, and Jason explore their all-time favorite documentaries and the inspirations for “The Girl Who Wore Freedom” film.

]]>f810abc0333041d180032a4b7d72414bFri, 22 Mar 2019 08:00:00 -050015:41falsefull22Episode 1 | OriginsEpisode 1 | OriginsToday we talk origin stories. We’re looking at how Director Christian Taylor got her start in filmmaking, the necessity of building a good team and how being a Mom helped her as a producer! Christian, Josh, and Jason discuss voiceover, working with a virtual team and the importance in belief.

]]>Today we talk origin stories. We’re looking at how Director Christian Taylor got her start in filmmaking, the necessity of building a good team and how being a Mom helped her as a producer! Christian, Josh, and Jason discuss voiceover, working with a virtual team and the importance in belief.

]]>b53cb6ff2bd740ce876a6bfefa38fd43Thu, 07 Mar 2019 03:59:00 -060014:50falsefull11