We continue our discussion on grit and resilience in healthcare professionals, focusing on the emotional toll of working in high-stakes, trauma-exposed environments. Dr. Kelly emphasizes the importance of building rapport with patients to establish trust while balancing the technical and humanistic aspects of patient care. This balance is best captured in the idea that healthcare providers must be both artists and scientists, mastering both the science of medicine and the art of compassionate care.

As an educator, Dr. Kelly shares the challenges of training future healthcare providers, particularly in honoring student diversity while ensuring that each practitioner embodies the qualities of excellent patient.

Dr. Kelly shares how her time in the Peace Corps—teaching biology in Namibia and working in health clinics—sparked her passion for nursing. Upon returning to Michigan, she pursued a nursing degree and discovered her love for teaching while working as a Supplemental Instructor at LCC, ultimately leading her to earn a doctorate in nursing.

We explore healthcare stigmas and how they prevent individuals from seeking care or receiving proper diagnoses. Drawing from her experience at the Cleveland Clinic, Dr. Kelly highlights the profound impact healthcare providers have—not just on patients, but also on their families. She emphasizes the importance of teamwork in high-stress environments, explaining how collaboration fosters both resilience and joy in a challenging field.

Dr. Kelly also discusses her research in South Africa, her five-year PhD journey, and her postdoctoral work at Columbia. One of her major findings revealed that anxiety and depression were almost never documented in patient records, despite their clear presence. She advocates for routine mental health screenings in primary care and discusses the financial and technological barriers that hinder advancements in diagnosing and treating mental health conditions.

We wrap up this part of the conversation by examining the preparation of future nurse practitioners, emphasizing the need for grit, resilience, and personal growth alongside technical expertise. Dr. Kelly’s insights offer a compelling look at the evolving landscape of healthcare and the critical role mental health plays in patient care.

We also discuss the role of gratitude in sustaining resilience while working with people in some of their most difficult moments. Mark reflects on his work in prison education, highlighting the transformative power of learning—not just for incarcerated individuals but for the broader community. Through education, lives can be reshaped, offering hope and meaningful change where it’s needed most.

Together, we discuss the rewards and challenges of working in the helping professions, particularly in high-stakes environments where people face life-altering circumstances. Mark shares insights from his 30-year career in emergency medicine and community emergency preparedness, reflecting on the personal sacrifices, lessons learned, and the enduring value of service.

In part two of this episode, Jim and Michael move from talking about the need to pursue a virtuous life, to talking about specific virtues philosophers and psychologists have proposed as necessary for the good life. Aristotle would submit that while living a virtuous life does not necessarily promise a happy life, but living without virtue does promise living an unhappy one., They explore some of the neuroscience of developing the ability to make healthy behaviors a positive and enduring habit, and conclude by discussing what Aristotle mean when he wrote about defining the great-souled person as one who neither overestimates or underestimates one’s potential to do, be and receive greatness.

1. PDF: Aristotle’s Nicomachean Ethics

This thought-provoking conversation explores Aristotle’s Nicomachean Ethics, a foundational work that examines what it takes to live a happy, virtuous, and flourishing life. They also touch on Positive Psychology, a contemporary movement in counseling and psychology that draws inspiration from ancient Greek philosophy. In this first installment, they lay the groundwork by discussing how philosophers throughout history have guided people toward lasting happiness and personal development.

1. Referenced PDF: Aristotle’s Nicomachean Ethics

Andy shares that he felt pressured in college to hurry up and make a decision about a lifelong career, since college is expensive. He now encourages students to take the time they need to make a good decision about their futures. And he discourages them from making unhealthy comparisons to others they see in college. Both he and Jim talk about how it’s impossible to know all the advantages and disadvantages that a person is carrying around, based on their life experiences and resources.

Success in life includes gaining new skills to meet novel challenges, and even to deal with familiar challenges that come to us in a new way. Jim and Andy encourage people to view challenges from a Growth Mindset, understanding that even when life may not get easier, we can become stronger.

1. LCC’s Center for Student Access (​​https://www.lcc.edu/services/access/contact.html)
2. Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americans_with_Disabilities_Act_of_1990)

Chuck grew up in North Carolina and went to college to study music and music education at Michigan State University. He and Jim discuss the process of Chuck finding a way to live parallel lives, so to speak, as an Academic Librarian and Professional Musician. They both discuss the process of finding their identity as musicians and discovering what role that passion would play in their lives.

Finally, they discuss the therapeutic benefit of listening to music as opposed to playing music. There is a raft of research on the benefits of listening to music as a therapy, and research showing that healing is often accelerated when music therapy is added as an adjunct to recovery. They also discuss the benefits of playing music and how therapeutic it can be to express oneself through an instrument and how living an artistic life can be very satisfying.

1. The effectiveness of music therapy, National Institute of Health

Island talks about the challenges of attending a large university, and how important it is to create social connections by joining clubs and organizations. She decided on a major that connected her two passions: understanding how people work, and helping people work better.

They clarify the different types of mental health providers and licenses, understanding that consumers may not understand the difference between a psychologist and a psychiatrist, for example. They discuss the necessity of seeing people not exclusively as individuals but as part of influential systems such as family and friends, and the importance of connecting with others in working through the challenges in life.

Jim and Gabe discuss the diverse needs students present and how LCC's support services are tailored to meet them effectively. Drawing from his own college experience, Gabe emphasizes the importance of acknowledging life's stresses and the strength in seeking help.

Gabe shares a key to college success: personalizing the experience by connecting the curriculum to life goals. Instead of rushing through college, Gabe embraced various employment and academic opportunities, leading him to his fulfilling role today. This approach has allowed Gabe to learn from everyone he encounters and accelerate his personal growth journey.

Learning is a lifelong process which includes both unlearning some concepts as well as learning new ones. Anthropology, Dr. Majumdar says, offers a wider view of what it means to define oneself as a member of the human race. Though everyone is having a unique experience of life as an individual, the commonalities of life and identity that we all share can live alongside a collective sense of self without subjugating one to the other. The oversimplified classifications of identity may limit a person from experiencing a more full and whole life.

Kali says we all have much in common, that we never really meet a stranger, we meet a friend, and that we need only to begin the conversation with another person to discover how connected we are.

Chief Gaines talks about how physical fitness is required to be able to perform competent policing, and it helps manage the high amount of stress that comes with the job. There are inherent physical risks in doing the work of policing, and police departments are providing better support and resources for officers to stay in shape not only to do the job, but also to manage stress.

There are many ways to approach developing aerobic (power) and anaerobic (endurance) fitness. Jim and Daryl, both avid cyclists, talk about the mental fortitude that is developed during endurance training and events. Cycling is a low-impact form of exercise and can be a way of achieving new levels of physical as well as mental fitness.

Website: LCC Police Department

Dr. Robinson and Jim talk about how professors can best support students who are experiencing mental health challenges. Both draw on their experience as educators, citing both data and anecdotes, regarding the pivotal role educators can play in helping students persevere through life challenges. Further, Dr. Robinson talks about the awesome responsibility of daily considering how best to support not only students, but the college staff, and even the members and organizations found throughout Lansing and mid-Michigan.

1. Community College Presidential Ethics, Dr. Steve Robinson
2. Mental Health by the Numbers, National Alliance on Mental Health

1. The Imposter Syndrome, Pauline R. Clance and Suzanne A. Imes
2. Brainstorm, Dr. Dan Siegel
3. Flow, Dr. Mihály Csíkszentmihályi
4. Johari Window, Joseph Luft, Harrington Ingham

Ronda talks about the importance of self-care, and the utility of compartmentalizing her roles in life to maintain balance. She shares that her diagnosis of depression led her to appreciate that she could not control everything in her life, and that she needed support, including pharmacological support, to pursue her passions. She dispels the myth that people who are successful are living a storybook life. She shares some of her core personal self-care practices that she relies on to stay in touch with her joy.

1. Treatment Approaches for Major Depressive Disorder, Mayo Clinic.
2. Impact of Gratitude Practice on Mental Health, NAMI.

As a returning adult learner herself, she wants everyone to know that they are welcome at LCC, and she encourages them to push through and finish their academic goals. She highlights the importance of relying on one’s “tribe” - to include academic support as well as family and friends - in order to finish. She highlights the concept of being “functionally dysfunctional”, meaning that too many people mistake being functional for being healthy. We all have practiced pretending and faking it to make it, but Angela talks about the importance of taking a moment to examine one’s inner anxieties and exploring what really needs to be done to achieve health. Speaking on behalf of the Black community in America, she talks about how difficult it was to go public in her community about experiencing mental health challenges and seeking mental health support, and wants to see mental health support destigmatized in all communities. Finally, she talks about the importance of exercise, seeking joy, and recognizing that self-care is not self-ish.

1. Laughter is good medicine, Mayo Clinic.
2. A laugh a day keeps the doctor away, Harvard Press.
3. Exercise reduces Anxiety and Depression, National Library of Medicine.

Felipe focuses on his “why” every single day. A powerful “why”, he shares, got him through lonely, dark times and helped him push through setbacks. He still considers himself a farmer, in a sense, but using his voice rather than hands, now, to make the world a better place. He encourages people to take on a growth mindset and take time to figure out their “why” and define some goals, dreams, and a direction.

1. Man’s Search for Meaning, Viktor Frankl
2. The Golden Circle (find your why), Simon Sinek

Some of the things he learned through those first few years of college proved challenging. Jim points out that it’s not always easy to stay motivated toward goals which are as abstract as a college diploma; it’s hard to see, semester by semester, the actual progress one is making toward that big goal. Sam suggests that we keep reminding ourselves, working toward abstract goals, of our purpose and passion for the goal we are attaining to.

Like many guests on this podcast, when prompted Sam responds that the main need he sees as fundamental to ensure good mental health is person-to-person human connection. He recommends getting involved in groups who share a similar interest be it sports, hobbies, or intellectual interests. Both Jim and Sam recognize that, given today’s social media and other technologies, it’s probably easier now than ever to find a group to connect with, but is in other ways more difficult given the changes in social mores and traditions for how to start a new relationship. The Covid-19 pandemic has certainly made this even more difficult.

Sam concludes the discussion around the topic of pain, and what it’s like to help walk someone through their trauma, pain, or whatever difficulty they may be stuck holding onto. His experience is that many people have become, unfortunately, accustomed to their pain and would sometimes rather stay there than risk moving forward. However, a good counselor can help inspire and guide someone out of their pain and into a new life.

1. Internal Family Systems, Richard Schwartz, IFS Institute
2. Student Clubs and Organizations, LCC Student Life
3. Spark, Timothy Jorgensen, Princeton University Press

He recommends practicing positivity versus complaining. At this point in his life, he is trying to develop his ability, as a primary reaction, to practice making lemonade out of lemons. Negativity can become overwhelming, but in shifting to an attitude of gratitude one can find ways to experience joy even while in the middle of a storm.

Finally, DeMarquis talks about the power of being in person with another human being absent technology. He describes 3 types of foundational relationships: 1) an “up” relationship with a mentor, 2) a “down” relationship with someone whom you can mentor, and 3) a “horizontal” relationship with someone whom you can share the journey of life with alongside one another. He concludes this interview by talking about the necessity of finding one’s passion and purpose.

1. How to write a personal mission statement, Stephen Covey.
2. 10 reasons why you need a mentor, Indeed.

They move the discussion to education and Jim shares his perspective that education is about two things: translation and transformation, meaning students take knowledge and transform it into wisdom. Finally, Stephen shares tools he uses to maintain mental health by choosing to focus on the next small step.

- Think and Grow Rich

- The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People

Curlada also encourages listeners to abandon any self-imposed limitations on one’s capabilities and instead embrace a more scientific view that one can learn and grow throughout life. She also references the Human Genome Project to underscore the universality of human experience. There are three dimensions of human experience: Universal, Cultural, and Individual. These three perspectives highlight that in some ways all human experience is shared among all humans (universal), in other ways it’s shared only by those who are in some way local or cultural to them (cultural), and finally, in other ways, is unique and unlike anyone else (individual).

Often the role of a counselor is to help a person process, organize and make sense of their (often distressing) experience as falling into any one or more of these tripartite categories. Curlada references the work of famed psychologist Abraham Maslow and his hierarchy of needs, emphasizing that we all have universal needs, cultural needs, and individual needs

1. Myelination of Neurons, National Library of Medicine
2. Human Genome Project, National Institutes of Health
3. Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs, National Library of Medicine

Pam shares how she came from a family that simply expected her to go to college. She found herself moving a long way from home and attending a few different colleges (including MSU as a Wolverine fan) and changing majors a few times before she finally discovered vocational rehabilitation counseling out of a desire to help people on an emotional level.

Pam talks about how she dealt with feeling overwhelmed going to a large university and reminds us that each of us have the power to make solution-focused decisions. Pam highlights the necessity of keeping our stress level low (self-care) and to share our inner emotional experiences with a trusted friend, family, or peer. She also talks about how self-care can take many forms, shares tips on how to schedule time for each of our various roles, and to value the power in doing nothing to restore oneself.

1. Self Care Wellness Toolkits, National Institutes of Health.
2. Emotional Wellness Toolkit, National Institutes of Health.

Jim cites some research published by Dr. Richard Light at Harvard University demonstrating that the strongest predictors for success in college are not academic readiness, but rather social connectedness to professors, advisors, and peers.  

Louise shares some ideas for how to thrive in college including the usefulness of applying curiosity rather than judgment to achieve greater understanding of self and others, and the power of in-person social connections and friendships to support lifelong mental wellbeing. 

• Tips for college success, Harvard University. 
• Psychology and Neuroscience of Curiosity,  National Institutes of Health.  
• Post-COVID-19 Psychosocial Health, National Institutes of Health.