Transforming with Legal Tech Podcast

The Nimble Boutique Firm

Thomson Reuters Asia and Emerging Markets — Fri, 24 Jul 2020 09:00:00 +1100

Last month we launched the Transforming with Legal Tech Podcast and explored innovation in Hong Kong. In the latest edition, two boutique Australian-based law firms reveal how they have found client (and work-life balance) success in operating nimbly.

The concept of ‘nimble’ is well-known to Charlotte Saunders, UX Researcher, who was involved with developing the new user experience for Westlaw, the smart legal research tool. For the duration of the project, Charlotte and her team ran user testing to hear feedback at every stage of the development process. New Westlaw today fits seamlessly into the day-to-day of legal practice, enabling its users to proceed with agility.

Three design partners joined Charlotte for this episode, including Danny King, Owner and Director at Danny King Legal. Danny is joined by Mark Wilson and Albert Cheung, who are Principal and Co-Founder and Associate at W Advisers respectively. Play the podcast for a deep-dive on how firms such as W Advisers and Danny King Legal achieve better outcomes for their clients with a nimble approach.

Podcast show notes

The nimble model

Coincidently, W Advisers and Danny King Legal entered the legal market in 2011, at a time when both founders identified the market’s appetite for relationship-driven legal advice.

Every start-up story is different, so what was it like for Mark? In Mark’s experience, back in 2011, there were a lot of corporate organisations and high net worth individuals looking to get more value out of the law. Mark’s legal guidance offered this, so his clients followed W Advisers and haven’t looked back since.

“I've had the good fortune to act for a lot of high net worth clients, and like large corporates, it's built on trust. But it's also built on the confidence that you're getting the right answer. In order to do that you obviously need experience and you need good tools to make sure you're getting the right answer every time,” said Mark.

Danny gained experience in the large law space before leaving to be a sole practitioner. While large law wasn’t the right environment for her, Danny experienced these early days as a bit of a launch pad.

“I started with a laptop on my couch…I'm very grateful for all the people that were there to support me emotionally because that was probably the hardest bit,” she recalled.

Danny treats every single client as precious, and during the podcast, she reminded our listeners that your ability to build dedicated relationships can make or break your business. But to be successful and compete commercially, you also need to be nimble. As Danny said:

“For me being nimble means we've got the right amount of people to do the right amount of work, and we're maximising our opportunity to make money without overworking our people or under servicing our clients.”

Driving innovation in mid-sized firms

You may hear of large law prioritising innovation, but boutique firms like Danny King Legal also values legal tech and continuous improvement.

“If something is getting in the way of us leaving at five o'clock, which is our ultimate goal every single day, then we're going to try and find a tech solution to cut through that…we aim to match the perfect level of resourcing with our service outputs and minimise waste,” Danny said.

Over at W Advisers. The firm is big on utilising technology to serve clients efficiently and with precision.

“Everyone in our business enjoys working on complex problems, but also enjoys cutting through. We look for assistance from our technology to cut through - cut through to the answer, cut through to the result, cut through the process and get to the end for the client as quickly as we can,” said Mark.

During the podcast, Albert also described how he and his colleagues benefitted from Mark’s commitment to innovation as a way to drive flexibility at the firm.

“Mark’s made the decision to invest in new hardware for the firm’s staff, so that we're able to actually utilise the hardware more efficiently and flexibly...including for staff who might require flexibility more than others,” said Albert.

Benefitting from the dividends of technology

If Mark could speak to his younger lawyer self today, he’d advise him to work smarter, not necessarily for longer hours.

“I think at large firms, there's an element of face time that you need to maintain. We try to dispense with that. We even try to kick people out of the office, to make sure that they're getting a work life balance that's increasingly important across all industries.”

As Mark invests in legal technology for W Advisers, he wants his employees to share the benefits of burdens lifted from the administration associated with the job, through flexible working.

“We all need to benefit from the technology dividend that our society is getting. It shouldn't only be of benefit to some people.”

So while you can’t always control when a client needs something, whether it is a court deadline or deal being done, you can monitor your staff to ensure they are not being overworked. For example, in a recent scenario, Mark noticed that an employee was not working flexibly, so Mark sent him on a day off.

Flexibility is a big selling point for lawyers who go to work at Danny King Legal. Quite ‘selfishly’, as she puts it, Danny created a work-life balance that enabled her to put her kids to bed and leave by 5pm should she want to.

“If I can do it, I’ve got to make sure that everybody else can do it frequently as well. It's part of the pitch of why you would come to a firm like mine instead of following a different kind of path. We prioritise different things,” said Danny.

“I also have a body of amazing Junior lawyers, paralegals, and people that are much younger with a finger to the digital pulse. And they tend to understand a lot more about these things than I do. And so we've got a bit of a culture of continuous improvement, that chips away at the common barriers that we come up against.”

AI and machine learning

When it comes to artificial intelligence, Mark has always been a skeptic. However, he now believes that AI is here to prove us wrong. Does this mean that the robots will take over the lawyers? In Mark’s view the answer is no, but that “lawyers will need to distinguish themselves by being the knowledge masters for unusual or bespoke situations.”

Danny King Legal specialises in employment law, which is a unique practice area in some respects. As Danny said, clients need human emotions to help them with the situation they are in. The solicitors at Danny King Legal need to carefully consider a range of factors in advising their clients. There is no algorithm for this type of service.

“I think as a service industry, it’s about providing humans with the connection and support that they need, when they are going through some really tough situations in life. That's what we're there for. That's our special sauce!” said Danny.

Mark could relate to this, citing a recent encounter with a client who was facing court examinations for a company that failed. For a good five minutes the client was sobbing on the phone.

“AI will never be able to assist in helping her [the client] overcome this [agony of losing a business]…Our role is not just to run through the rules or even just apply the rules. It's to help people,” Mark said.

Feedback on new Westlaw design partnership

Danny King, Owner and Director, Danny King Legal

This was such a great opportunity for us as a firm to get stuck in with a company like Thomson Reuters and meet more people. For us, it’s all about building community and relationships. We're chuffed to have been included!

Mark Wilson, Principal and Co-Founder, W Advisers

As boutiques, we've got Thomson Reuters’ whole team standing behind our efforts to get to know the law, which is ever more complex, ever more difficult to navigate, with various areas of law becoming more interdependent.

To be listened to, and as Albert said, for the product to develop in response to our expressed needs, and the flexibility that we've been seeking, we were really grateful that you've taken the time to hear us and to be responsive.

We are really excited to see how that will mean that we will be able to practice with more confidence, knowing we've got the right result quickly. It's terrific...For us, it's a great step forward for us in our practice.

Albert Cheung, Associate, W Advisers

I really appreciated how, [during the design process] I could actually see changes in the product that was being developed based on what I had to contribute, or feedback that I was giving to the design team. I think that the product that I'm now seeing versus the product that I saw a year ago has significantly improved. And I've actually really enjoyed working with less law throughout this process!

If you’re interested in learning about the new Westlaw, discover the time-saving benefits of cutting through to the answer via our on-demand thought leadership webinar.

Innovation in Hong Kong Firms and Corporate Departments

Thomson Reuters Asia and Emerging Markets — Wed, 03 Jun 2020 09:00:00 +1100

Transforming with Legal Tech Podcast Episode 1: Hong Kong Innovation

Thomson Reuters is pleased to launch a new podcast series on transforming with legal technologies. For episode one, Polly Poon, Senior Proposition Manager - Legal Tracker, Thomson Reuters Asia and Emerging Markets, spoke with two special guests based in Hong Kong.

Polly welcomed Sebastian Ko and Elizabeth Beattie on the program, who both have demonstrated their passion for innovative legal developments in the region. Sebastian is a ‘legal tech’ entrepreneur and chairs the InnoTech Law Hub of the Law Society of Hong Kong. He is legally qualified in Hong Kong and the U.S, and has practiced in Magic Circle and Am Law 100 firms.

Meanwhile, Elizabeth is a Hong Kong-based journalist at Thomson Reuters, covering policy changes, legal tech and market developments for Asian Legal Business. Prior to working for Thomson Reuters, Elizabeth reported for the Guardian, Sunday Telegraph, SBS and Al Jazeera.

Podcast show notes

5 critical drivers of innovation

Taking a close look at the local state of Hong Hong in respect of innovation drivers in the legal sector, Sebastian shared some industry insights during the discussion. In September 2019, the Law Society conducted an innovation value chain survey to take the pulse on the innovation priorities of the 11,000 solicitors and registered foreign lawyers in Hong Kong. Sebastian discussed his favourite insights from the survey, including the five critical drivers of innovation experienced by private practitioners.

“There are five critical drivers for innovation. Productivity and operational efficiency, work quality, risk management and cost and budget control in decreasing order of importance. These were shared by in house lawyers. But interestingly, competitive edge, team coordination and management outranked risk management. Plus, cost control factors like client demand, talent retention market growth were identified priorities, but not critical,” said Sebastian.

Legal landscape in Hong Kong

Polly invited Sebastian to weigh in on the unique legal industry in Hong Kong, to contextualise it in comparison to other jurisdictions. In response, he said:

“The [Hong Kong] legal profession tends to be a bit conservative and it's quite reserved when it comes to trying out new tech or other innovations. But we are seeing interesting changes among the first movers, which unsurprisingly tend to be the international firms and legal departments and global banks and tech companies.

“Hong Kong has about 930 law firms. Nearly 89% of them are small, medium-sized firms with five partners or less. These firms generally don't have access to in-house IT professionals and have a very small IT budget.

A lot of work is yet to be done on basic building block projects such as digital transformation and going paperless campaigns. How to to doc [document] management easier, take the friction out of the file tagging and data reuse. Well, these are key steps for more advanced technologies like machine learning and natural language processing,” said Sebastian.

What does innovation mean to you?

As this session’s podcast host, Polly had a particular interest in the concept of innovation, in how it is subjective to interpretation. Polly queried Elizabeth on the topic, as well as asking how innovation can play out among firms and organisations.

“I think this is a really interesting one. For many law firms. Innovation does mean technology, but it can also mean adopting new ways of thinking or working as well. For some law firms, innovation is about new types of hiring, putting greater focus on D&I [diversity and inclusion] changing the physical space of the offices, or perhaps it comes in the form of offering staff new types of training.

When I think of innovation within law firms, it's often about creating an environment where people can experiment and communicate readily. Sometimes technology is the way law firms are able to do this. Other times it can be as simple as starting an internal conversation or exploring where the pain points are. When you think about it, some technologies really are quite simple, but they serve a purpose.”

Tech integration and change management

One of the key factors in a successful innovation journey is having an environment that is receptive to change and willing to challenge the status quo. Polly asked Sebastian what the commonalities are among teams that have succeeded in integrating technology into their legal work, drawing on their experiences. To this, Sebastian responded with practical insights:

“Now I want to distinguish between an IT exercise to bring in a new tool for incremental improvement, versus an innovation exercise that may involve a new tool, but it's ultimately about competitive growth and doing things a lot differently.

“There are basic change management principles to follow in both and in working with clients. I see that the problem identification and prioritisation stages of the solutions lifecycle, if done right, would already go a long way to ensure success.

"Tech today is not magic. It's a tool, the new tool you're adopting needs to address specific issues in your organisation. Have you identified what those issues are? Are those issues appropriate for the type of tech to be adopted? Who are the right stakeholders to involve in the project?"

In the Law Society innovation survey, most respondents noted that they do not regularly review market trends or opportunities for developing new services or solutions, or have periodic reviews with their clients on their service needs. Sebastian identified this as a key area for firms and legal departments to improve on, if they are to prioritise innovation.

Tips on improving your innovation journey

Once you have identified the problems to address, Sebastian advised firms and legal departments to look for potential roadblocks and make sure they're minimised or dealt with during the innovation journey.

“I think we can also have a look at the top three barriers identified by respondents to the innovation survey as a starting point for private practitioners sufficient funding of technology and the efforts to identify and adopt new ideas. That's one thing, a second, leadership support. What's the tone from the top?

“Lawyers are caught up in a lot of ‘firefighting’ day to day, leaving very little bandwidth for ideation and research. On the in-house side, it echoes some of these factors in terms of funding and time constraints, but also notes operational resource constraints, including dealing with legacy IT systems.

“Having a plan that addresses the above that has been developed with leadership buying is absolutely crucial. And even with the best laid plans, you really need to believe in the value of the innovation, the project has to be given the opportunity to run this course. And a lot of expected and unexpected risks will manifest along the way of your innovation journey. If in fact, of course, the value is not validated in the project, then there is no use to push on. But the best organisations are resilient and will then jump right back to the drawing board and start again.

Why innovation matters: Hong Kong industry perspectives

To conclude episode one of Transforming with Legal Tech, Polly asked her guests why legal innovation remains important in 2020. Elizabeth answered:

"As a journalist, I value technology that makes my work easier or improves my access to information. For example, it's the same with law firms. I would say technology can support firms to be more productive and agile. But it also sends a message to clients, too."

Polly agreed, saying that in her experience she is seeing law departments expect more from the law firms that are working with in terms of driving innovation and the use of technologies.

For Sebastian, there is a very human element to whether or not innovation ‘sticks’ or not.

“I think the old adage still holds true, which is that while everybody wants change, nobody wants to change and innovation is a very difficult thing to do. But with the right commitments, it will pay off and it's very worthwhile. So we'll need to see how legal innovation can be sustained.

The availability of tech is shaping our attitude towards innovation priorities in the profession. So this is a culturally reinforcing trend, which is a very positive thing based on my own professional experience.

Corporate innovation projects can be fragile somewhat, and can be put down by complex organisational structures and competent decision making and compliance processes. But as I said, their payoff can be substantial in the long-term, ensuring the company's market leadership even in adverse sales conditions. So understanding this means that your business will truly move the needle in the long term.”

Looking for more corporate counsel insights? Listen to Inside In-House Podcast Episode 1: General Counsel as Trusted Advisers for a conversation with a successful APAC GC.