The Church Lobby

Ep 125: How People of Faith Can Help Solve the Mental Health Crisis, with Shaunti Feldhahn & James N. Sells

Thu, 02 Apr 2026 00:00:00 -0700

Karl Vaters talks with Dr. Shaunti Feldhahn and Dr. James N. Sells about the state of mental and emotional care in our culture, and how churches are uniquely situated to alleviate these needs in healthy, life-giving ways.

The conversation focuses on the CARE strategy (Coordinated Attention, Restoration, and Encouragement), and how churches of any size can be better equipped to help, starting with renewing friendships, training a CARE coordinator, and more, based on the content of their book, When Hurting People Come to Church: How People of Faith Can Help Solve the Mental Health Crisis, which was named one of Karl’s top books of the year for 2025.

Links:

When Hurting People Come to Church: How People of Faith Can Help Solve the Mental Health Crisis
CARE Pyramids Illustrations
My Top Nonfiction Books Of 2025
When Hurting People Come to Church (Free first chapter)
The Church Cares Initiative
The Church Cares Kit
Culture Making: Recovering Our Creative Calling (by Andy Crouch)

Bonus Content

Three Key People Every Church Needs to Help Hurting People, with Shaunti Feldhahn & James N. Sells

Your church doesn’t need a licensed counselor to help people with emotional needs. Karl Vaters talks with Dr. Shaunti Feldhahn & Dr. James N. Sells about the three key people every church should have in place to help the hurting people who come to every church.

This conversation is based on the content of their book, When Hurting People Come to Church: How People of Faith Can Help Solve the Mental Health Crisis, which was named one of Karl’s top books of the year for 2025.

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Mentioned in this episode:

Go to KarlVaters.com/100days for more information.

Ep 124: The Art and Science of Making Disciples, with Peyton Jones

Thu, 19 Mar 2026 00:00:00 -0700

Karl Vaters talks with Peyton Jones about the severe need for our churches to become better at the main command Jesus gave His church: making disciples.

Peyton is the author of several books, including the newly released, Discipology: The Art and Science of Making Disciples, which is the basis for this conversation.

The stats are troubling. In a recent survey, pastors acknowledged that discipleship is the aspect of church ministry that they do least well. And when church members are surveyed, only 23 percent of Christians say they were ever discipled one-on-one.

Peyton is a church planter and church planting specialist who is tackling this crisis head on. In his new book, Peyton uses the disciple-making pattern from the life of Jesus to describe the Discipology Flywheel, where three essential elements come together:

Time—Where Disciples Are Formed
Teaching—Where Disciples Are Trained
Tactics—Where Disciples Are Sent

Bonus Content Summary

The SHALOM Star: Six Aspects of Life that Find Balance as God Permeates Them, with Peyton Jones

Karl Vaters talks with Peyton Jones about Peyton’s acronym for balanced Christian living, based on the word and the concept of Shalom. From the content of Peyton’s new book, Discipology: The Art and Science of Making Disciples.

Spirit: Your soul’s connection to God
Honor: The areas of life you steward
Affections: Your family and friendships
Learning: Your intellect and creativity
Others: Your allies on mission
Mental: Your emotional well-being

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Mentioned in this episode:

Go to KarlVaters.com/100days for more information.

Ep 123: Six Things I’d Do Differently If I Was a Young Pastor Today, with Darryl Dash

Thu, 05 Mar 2026 00:00:00 -0700

Karl Vaters interviews Darryl Dash, a long-time pastor in Toronto, Canada. Darryl recently wrote the article, Advice to New and Aspiring Pastors, for The Gospel Coalition, Canada in which raised several issues that are helpful, not just for younger pastors, but for anyone who wants to be a better pastor for the long haul.

Links:

Bonus Content

8 Habits to Become More Like Christ, with Darryl Dash

Karl Vaters interviews Darryl Dash about the content of his helpful discipleship book, 8 Habits for Growth: A Simple Guide to Becoming More Like Christ. The habits include: the importance of spending time with God, daily Bible reading, involvement in a healthy local church, and more. This is a great book for discipleship in the local church, and this interview with Darryl will give you an idea of what it’s about and how to use it.

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Mentioned in this episode:

Go to KarlVaters.com/100days for more information.

Ep 122: Philip Yancey, Shattered Trust, and Rebuilding Your Integrity, with Kurt Bubna

Thu, 19 Feb 2026 00:00:00 -0700

Karl Vaters talks with Kurt W. Bubna about what to do if you’re a Christian leader who has betrayed people and broken trust. This conversation was sparked by the Facebook post, An Open Letter to Philip Yancey Regarding His Extramarital Affair, that Bubna wrote in early January.

So many have opined about Yancey, and understandably so, but most of them know little if anything about his situation, including Karl and Kurt. So, while this conversation was triggered by that news, it’s an attempt at a measured approach from a perspective that we need to hear—a pastor who broke trust and is rebuilding it again. This conversation focuses on practical help for anyone who is walking through a similar time of sinful behavior, by talking through Kurt’s helpful article, How to Rebuild Trust After You’ve Broken It.

Links:

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Mentioned in this episode:

Go to KarlVaters.com/100days for more information.

Ep 121: Six Big Shifts In How People Volunteer—And How To Respond, with Laurie Graham

Thu, 05 Feb 2026 00:00:00 -0700

Karl Vaters talks to Laurie Graham about some of the big ways volunteerism has changed, and how we, as church leaders, can respond to these trends.

Laurie runs smallchurchministry.com, an online ministry that provides resources and support for volunteers and ministry leaders in smaller churches.

This is Laurie’s second time on the podcast (the last time she was known as Laurie Acker), and in this conversation she and Karl talk about how church volunteerism has been affected by people’s changing schedules, their desire for deeper meaning, the need to restore their trust, and more.

Links:

Website: https://smallchurchministry.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/smallchurchministry/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/smallchurchministry
Creative Solutions for Small Churches Facebook Community: https://www.facebook.com/groups/smallchurchministry
Small Church Network & Academy: https://smallchurchministry.com/membership/

Bonus Content Summary

Rethinking Church Programs for Volunteer Flexibility, with Laurie Graham

Karl Vaters talks with Laurie Graham of SmallChurchMinistry.com about different ways we, as church leaders, can start to change church programs that were originally designed for the way people used to volunteer, into ministry that works for the more personal, seasonal way people live and commit today.

Website: https://smallchurchministry.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/smallchurchministry/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/smallchurchministry
Creative Solutions for Small Churches Facebook Community: https://www.facebook.com/groups/smallchurchministry
Small Church Network & Academy: https://smallchurchministry.com/membership/

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Mentioned in this episode:

Go to KarlVaters.com/100days for more information.

Ep 120: Experiencing Scripture Like Dallas Willard, with Dave Ripper

Thu, 22 Jan 2026 00:00:00 -0700

Karl Vaters talks through some helpful guidelines with Dave Ripper about how to read, meditate, and teach from the Bible in a richer, deeper way.

Dave is the lead pastor of Crossway Christian Church, a multicongregational church in southern New Hampshire, focused on spiritual formation, and is the author of Experiencing Scripture as a Disciple of Jesus: Reading the Bible like Dallas Willard.

Karl and Dave explore who Dallas Willard was, and what his way of reading the Bible can do for us, including:

Willard’s four steps on how to read the Bible
A five-step outline for meditating on a text
The IMMERSE method
Preaching out of the overflow
How to let God speak to the church instead imposing your ideas into the text or onto the congregation

Links:

Experiencing Scripture as a Disciple of Jesus: Reading the Bible like Dallas Willard, by Dave Ripper
The Dallas Willard podcast
DaveRipper.com
Deeper Experiences with God Podcast, with Dave Ripper
Dave Ripper on Instagram
Dave Ripper on Facebook
Contact Dave Ripper

Bonus video summary

Three Warnings from Dallas Willard about How Not to Read the Bible, with Dave Ripper

In this subscriber-only bonus material, Karl Vaters talks with pastor Dave Ripper, the author of Experiencing Scripture as a Disciple of Jesus: Reading the Bible like Dallas Willard, about why Bible readers should stay away from:

Bible roulette
The “It’s all in the Bible” View
Bible deism

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Mentioned in this episode:

Go to KarlVaters.com/100days for more information.

Ep 119: Pushing Back Against The Lie Of Fast Church Growth, with Jeff Hoglen

Thu, 08 Jan 2026 00:00:00 -0700

Have you ever gone to a church growth conference and been told “all healthy things grow?”

Karl Vaters talks with Jeff Hoglen about what’s happening behind that idea, and why it can be a problem for a lot of pastors and churches. The conversation is based on an article Jeff wrote, called “The Church Growth Lie No One Talks About.”

Karl and Jeff talk about what that lie is, why we keep believing it, and what to do, instead.

They also discuss alternative ways to look at church health and growth, including:

How growth feels more like farming than fireworks
How most real growth is slow, often invisible, and always hard
How the slow seasons don’t have to discourage you
How to deepen before you broaden
How to pursue health over hype
The importance of celebrating the small stuff

And more.

Links:

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Mentioned in this episode:

Go to KarlVaters.com/100days for more information.

Ep 118: Why the Body of Christ Still Matters, with Brad Edwards

Thu, 18 Dec 2025 00:00:00 -0700

Karl Vaters talks with Brad Edwards about the shift that’s happened over the last decade or so in how people perceive institutions, especially the institutional church.

In this conversation they talk about how the rise of radical individualism has replaced once-trusted institutions, why a distrust in institutions is problematic, and why institutions—especially the church—still matter.

Brad is a church planter and pastor of The Table Church in Lafayette, CO. He’s also the author of, The Reason for Church: Why the Body of Christ Still Matters in an Age of Anxiety, Division, and Radical Individualism. This conversation also includes an overview of the reasons behind the loss of institutionalism, and especially five Church Defeaters:

Church Defeater 1: Spiritual Pragmatism
Church Defeater 2: The Sacred Self
Church Defeater 3: Counterfeit Institutions
Church Defeater 4: (Un)Civil religions
Church Defeater 5: Virtuous Victimhood

(CONGRATULATIONS to Brad on his book being named Book of the Year by Christianity Today magazine!)

Links:

BONUS TALK

Our Role in the Grand Narrative of Scripture, with Brad Edwards

Karl Vaters talks with Brad Edwards about the importance of understanding the metanarrative of scripture as a foundational teaching for life and faith.

In particular, their conversation addresses two storytelling terms. First, Main Character Syndrome, which helps us understand and clarify the dangers of the hyper-individualism of our current age. Second, the MacGuffin, a term coined by movie director Alfred Hitchcock that helps us see what our role in God’s story really is.

Links:

The Reason for Church: Why the Body of Christ Still Matters in an Age of Anxiety, Division, and Radical Individualism

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Mentioned in this episode:

Go to KarlVaters.com/100days for more information.

Ep 117: The Growing Problem of Gambling Addiction in the Church, with Dr. Donald Lichi

Thu, 04 Dec 2025 00:00:00 -0700

Do you know how to spot if someone in your congregation has a gambling problem? Once it’s been spotted or confessed, do you know what to do?

Karl Vaters talks with Dr. Don Lichi about one of the fastest-growing addictions in the world, including:

How is gambling defined?
Why does it have such a strong grip on some people?
Who is most likely to be addicted?
How to get help

And more

Donald Lichi is vice president emeritus of Emerge Counseling Ministries, and author of the article, Is Gambling a Problem in the Church? You Bet! in Influence magazine.

Links:

Bonus Chat

What to Do if You’re a Pastor with a Gambling Problem, with Donald Lichi

Pastors are not immune to the temptations of gambling and other addictions.

In this short conversation, Karl Vaters talks with Dr. Don Lichi about how to recognize those tendencies in yourself, and what to do if you’re trapped in it. They also talk about who you should/should not share these problems with, and how to engage in preventative measures.

Links:

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Mentioned in this episode:

Go to KarlVaters.com/100days for more information.

Ep 116: How Your Church Can Help People Recover from Grief, with Jeff Forrey

Thu, 20 Nov 2025 00:00:00 -0700

Karl Vaters talks with Dr. Jeff Forrey about grief, recovery, and how your church can help people, both inside and outside the congregation, deal with grief in healthy ways.

Grief has no rules, but there are healthy ways through it. And churches—small churches especially—are uniquely suited to provide real comfort for people in these difficult seasons of loss.

Karl and Jeff talk about some important principles, including:

Why do we need help with grief?
What kind of damage can we experience if we don’t deal with grief properly?
What's a typical time frame for experiencing grief?
What common mistakes are made in responding to grievers?

And more

Jeff Forrey oversees GriefShare, which can come alongside your church to equip you to be a resource for people in need.

Links:

There is no bonus material for this episode.

Mentioned in this episode:

Go to KarlVaters.com/100days for more information.

Ep 115: Church, Parachurch, and Missio Dei, with Dr. Angie Ward

Thu, 06 Nov 2025 00:00:00 -0700

In recent decades, parachurch organizations have carved out an important space in church life and ministry.

Karl Vaters talks with Dr. Angie Ward about why it’s important for ministers to take a closer look at what the church is, what parachurch organizations bring to the mix, and how we can move forward more missionally, even as the emphasis on institutions diminishes.

Dr. Ward is director of the Doctor of Ministry program and associate professor of leadership and ministry at Denver Seminary. She’s also the author of Beyond Church and Parachurch: From Competition to Missional Extension, which is the basis for this conversation.

Links:

Beyond Church and Parachurch: From Competition to Missional Extension
Beyond the Local Church: How Apostolic Movements Can Change the World, by Sam Metcalf
The Church and the Parachurch: An Uneasy Marriage (A Critical Concern Book), by Jerry E. White
Polycentric Leadership: Church as a Discipleship Movement, with Dan White Jr. (The Church Lobby, Ep 039)
Uncharted Leadership: 20 Case Studies to Help Ministry Leaders Adapt to Uncertainty, by Angie Ward

BONUS TALK

The Five Advantages Of Parachurch Organizations, with Dr. Angie Ward

Every parachurch ministry needs to flow from and/or point to the local church. So why do we need parachurch ministries, at all?

In this bonus conversation, Karl Vaters talks with Dr. Angie Ward about the five benefits that churches can gain from partnering with parachurch ministries in productive ways:

Reach
Specialization
Lay involvement
Promoting unity
To call the local church to mission

Links:

Beyond Church and Parachurch: From Competition to Missional Extension

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Mentioned in this episode:

Go to KarlVaters.com/100days for more information.

Ep 114: The Art of Writing and Living a Sermon, with Austin Carty

Thu, 23 Oct 2025 00:00:00 -0700

If you’re a preaching pastor, you know what it means to feel the burden and the joy of preparing and preaching a sermon every Sunday. No matter how many years we’ve done it, we can always use a little more help to do it better.

Karl Vaters talks with Austin Carty about the craft of writing and delivering a weekly sermon, based on Austin’s latest book, Some of the Words Are Theirs: The Art of Writing and Living a Sermon. Austin is the pastor of Boulevard Baptist Church, a small congregation in Anderson, SC.

Karl and Austin talk about several of the aspects that go into sermon prep, including:

The weekly call to biblical self-reflection
How to decide what passage to preach from
How to hook the listeners into the essence of the message
Setting enough time to seriously prayerfully read, study and ponder the text
Preaching from a posture of humble conviction rather than blind certainty
And more

Links:

BONUS EPISODE (Subscribers Only)

Five Questions to Help You Preach a Well-balanced Sermon, with Austin Carty

One of the most important aspects in sermon prep and presentation today is making sure you know and acknowledge that there are points of view that are different from yours. But how do we recognize these points of view, while preaching the truth from God’s Word?

Austin Carty helps us negotiate this potential minefield in a short conversation with Karl Vaters, based on Austin’s new book, Some of the Words Are Theirs: The Art of Writing and Living a Sermon, by helping us ask these five questions:

Have I made sweeping generalizations?
Have I overargued my point?
Have I taken into account my own biases?
Have I considered other viable points of view?
Have I sufficiently justified my claims?

Links:

Some of the Words Are Theirs: The Art of Writing and Living a Sermon

Mentioned in this episode:

Go to KarlVaters.com/100days for more information.

Ep 113: What I Found on the Other Side of Church Growth, with Paul Dazet

Thu, 09 Oct 2025 00:00:00 -0700

What happens when all the church growth principles that were working in your church, suddenly stop working when you need them the most?

Karl Vaters interviews Paul Dazet about what happened to him, as the pastor of a fast-growing church shortly after he was diagnosed with cancer. Over 100 members left, saying things like “I just can’t handle being sad at church,” and “It used to be so energetic. Your illness changed the whole vibe.” Paul’s illness and the shaved head that went with it were seen as a show of weakness, need, and vulnerability that many people were uncomfortable seeing on a church platform.

But it’s not all bad news. Paul also walks us through the positive changes he has made in his approach to pastoring, including allowing space for lament, and how he now defines ministry success.

Links:

Paul’s article on Substack
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/pastorpauldazet/
Instagram - @pauldazet
Twitter / X - @pauldazet
Bluesky - @pastorpaul.bsky.social‬
Libby
Hoopla

Bonus video

The Five False Jesus’ of the “Successful” Church, with Paul Dazet

Paul Dazet found out that a numerically-growing church isn’t necessarily a healthy church. In this Bonus content, Karl Vaters talks with Paul about the 5 ways churches can be tempted to see Jesus that are not what Jesus intended for his church. They are:

“Jesus wants you rich” (Prosperity Jesus)
“Jesus votes red, white, and blue” (Nationalistic Jesus)
“Jesus is disappointed in you” (Judgmental Jesus)
“Jesus only loves people who look and believe like us” (Exclusive Jesus)
“Jesus is here to meet your every need” (Consumeristic Jesus)

Links:

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Mentioned in this episode:

Go to KarlVaters.com/100days for more information.

Ep 112: Making Room for Loss and Grief In Life and Ministry, with Leanne Friesen

Thu, 25 Sep 2025 00:00:00 -0700

Karl Vaters interviews Leanne Friesen about grief. Specifically, how pastors, family members, and other caring people can help give people the room to process their grief when they go through a profound loss. Karl and Leanne also talk about how to process those feelings ourselves.

Leanne is a former pastor and is the author of Grieving Room: Making Space for All the Hard Things after Death and Loss. She talks with wisdom and compassion about the difficult, but important principles she learned as she went through the death of her sister more than a decade ago.

Links:

Grieving Room: Making Space for All the Hard Things after Death and Loss
Instagram: @Grieving.Room and @leanne_friesen
LeanneFriesen.com
Facebook: A Little Bit of Grieving Room

Bonus video

How to Give People Room When They’re Not “Getting Over” Their Grief, with Leanne Friesen

Karl Vaters interviews Leanne Friesen about one of the hardest aspects of grief – what happens when you can’t seem to “get over it” the way people seem to think you should?

As Leanne explains, when a loved one dies, the ones who have lost them need room for grief to be a part of their lives for the rest of their life. By recognizing this, they can deal with it in a much healthier way.

Links:

Grieving Room: Making Space for All the Hard Things after Death and Loss

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 111: Using AI To Find Great Sermon Illustrations, with Darrell Stetler

Thu, 11 Sep 2025 00:00:00 -0700

Karl Vaters talks with Darrell Stetler about a new AI program Darrell has created, called Sermon Illustrator.

After a short introduction to what AI is, and some of the advantages and dangers of using it, they narrow in on this tool that helps pastors with a very specific task – finding illustrations (stories, metaphors, historical events, and so on) that can give your well-prepared sermon a story, a photo, a video, or another illustration that will help your content connect in a memorable way.

Podcast Links:

Sermon Illustrator
Get the AI Training Course ($27 offer for podcast listeners!)
Ep 038: A Discipleship Strategy Small Churches Can Actually Follow
Ep 084: Second was Trunk-or-Treat, with Darrell Stetler

Also from Darrell Stetler:

NewStart Discipleship curriculum
Free New believer Bible reading plan (1 Page PDF)
Free audiobook on discipling your children
Free NewStart Discipleship Journal: A 54-page discipleship Bible study for new Christians.
Free one-hour discipleship training workshop
Free 23 Page Planning Guide with Trunk or Treat Ideas for Churches
The Gospel Trunk or Treat Planning System

Social media:

Bonus Content

Some Strengths and Dangers of Using AI for Sermon Prep, with Darrell Stetler

Karl Vaters interviews Darrell Stetler about what AI is good for, and some of the dangers AI poses, specifically when it comes to prepping Sunday sermons.

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 110: Healthy Goal-setting and Helping The Big Church Feel Small, with Luke Simmons

Thu, 28 Aug 2025 00:00:00 -0700

Karl Vaters talks with Luke Simmons, the pastor of Ironwood Church in Mesa, AZ. Recently, Luke and his church elders decided to pursue a very ambitious goal with the aim of helping their large, growing congregation feel smaller and more connected.

As a big-church pastor, Luke is not a typical Church Lobby guest, but he and Karl follow each other on X (formerly Twitter) and when Luke posted about this plan it inspired a lot of questions and curiosity. The plan is for the members of their elder team to have one-on-one meetings with 1,000 church members over coffee or a meal this coming year.

If those numbers make you feel like this isn’t for you, give it a chance. Luke has a heart for people, and he’s interested in how to set numerical goals that help us reach non-numerical objectives of discipleship, fellowship, and service.

Links:

Bonus video

How To Conduct An Annual Leadership Meeting, with Luke Simmons

Karl Vaters talks with Luke Simmons about some of the steps he follows to gain as much as possible from an annual leadership meeting with his church elders. Points include:

Get it on the calendar as soon as possible
Make it an overnighter
Budget for it
Slow down in a relaxed environment
Set the tone with idea prompts in writing
Write a summary afterward
And more

Links:

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 109: The Future is Bivocational, with Andrew Hamilton

Thu, 14 Aug 2025 00:00:00 -0700

Over the last few months, several of our podcasts have been about bivo/covocationality, side hustles for pastors, and so on. And more are on the way.

Why? Because the future of the church is bivocational. In this episode, Karl Vaters talks to Andrew Hamilton about the content from his book, The Future is Bivocational: Shaping Christian Leaders for a Post-Christian World, including the theological foundation for bivocational ministry, how work isn’t a sinful result of the fall, but an element of God’s creative design for us, and the value of covocational ministry for the pastor, the church, and the community.

The second half of the conversation includes several very practical steps for any pastor who’s considering bivocationality, including:

Having upfront conversations with your church leaders
Deciding which tasks are essential for you to do
Knowing which tasks others can be trained for and trusted with
The non-optional tasks of leadership and communication
Why Andrew tries to function at 70 percent of his ministry capacity

And more

Links:

Bonus video

Eight Options for Finding Bivocational Work, with Andrew Hamilton

Are you considering becoming a bivocational pastor? Karl Vaters talks to Andrew Hamilton about some practical work options that mesh well with a pastoral schedule and skillset, from the content from his book, The Future is Bivocational: Shaping Christian Leaders for a Post-Christian World, including:

Project/Contract Work
Laboring
Start a Small Business
The Church Starts a Business
Retrain/Upskill/Study
Low Demand Work
Volunteer
Consulting

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 108: Creating an Environment for Discipleship to Thrive and Multiply, with Bryan Sims

Thu, 31 Jul 2025 00:00:00 -0700

*ATTENTION NEEDED* Help us get to Malaysia by going to KarlVaters.com/support

Anything you can give will be appreciated.

Karl Vaters interviews Bryan Sims about creating an environment for discipleship to thrive, from his book, Creating Space: Cultivating Environments for Disciples of Jesus to Thrive and Multiply (co-written with Craig Robertson).

In the first half of the book, and of our conversation, we talk about the importance of creating PSDs (Passionate Spiritual Disciples) and how the church needs to get better at creating space for it to happen among our church members.

Then in the second half, we get practical, talking about four tools to help this happen in your church. Plus, Bryan addresses the five characteristics of healthy disciple-making environments, and more.

Links:

Bonus video

The 4 Stages of Disciple-making Environments, with Bryan Sims

Karl Vaters interviews Bryan Sims about the 4 different types of environments that are needed for varying stages of spiritual growth, from his book, Creating Space: Cultivating Environments for Disciples of Jesus to Thrive and Multiply (co-written with Craig Robertson).

Stage 1: Engage and Befriend
Stage 2: Relate and Connect
Stage 3: Equip and Grow
Stage 4: Become and Send

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 107: Optimizing Your Church Website for Three Key Types of Visitors, with Derek Maxson

Thu, 17 Jul 2025 00:00:00 -0700

Karl Vaters interviews Derek Maxson about some simple ways to make sure your church website is reaching the three kinds of people who are most likely to use it.

Derek runs Spiffy.Church, an online ministry that specializes in helping smaller churches get the most from their websites, using limited time and resources.

Derek and Karl talk about how to optimize your church website by making it simple and affordable, and how to use it to help three types of people.

Insiders (your church members and regulars)
Shoppers (those looking for a new church home)
Seekers (those who are curious about the faith or who are needing help in a time of crisis)

Links:

Spiffy.Church

Bonus video

Three Simple Changes You Can Make To Your Church Website, with Derek Maxson

Church websites shouldn’t be as complicated as we make them. In this bonus chat, Karl Vaters talks with Derek Maxson about a few quick changes you can make to your church website that will immediately make it better for everyone.

Links:

Spiffy.Church

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 106: Segregation, Affinity Spaces, and How the Gospel Defeats Racism, with Mika Edmondson

Thu, 03 Jul 2025 00:00:00 -0700

Karl Vaters interviews Mike Edmondson about the hot-button topics of racial segregation in the American church, why affinity spaces matter, and how the gospel defeats racism – even the racism that has sometimes been promoted within the institutional church.

Mika speaks with experience, wisdom, directness, and grace, generating more light than heat.

Some of what Mika and Karl talk about includes:

What is segregation?
What is “Hereditary Heathenism?”
Why did historically black churches begin?
What are “Affinity Spaces” and why do they matter?
How can we think and act more biblically about issues of race?

And more.

Links:

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 105: Recovering from Sexually Related Trauma, with Rachel Bren

Thu, 19 Jun 2025 14:45:00 -0700

Rachel Bren is a survivor of sexually related trauma, and now she serves with SRTServices.org, which helps people recover from their trauma, and can help you and your church. She’s also the co-host of the Grace & Grenades podcast.

Karl Vaters interviews Rachel about what sexual related trauma is, how the church can help those dealing with it, some mistakes to avoid, and more.

Links:

SRTServices.org
Grace & Grenades
Our church introduction video
Brene Brown video on sympathy vs. empathy
The Allender Center Podcast
The Place We Find Ourselves Podcast
Grace & Grenades Podcast
You can reach Rachel by email at rachel@srtservices.org and the website www.srtservices.org

Bonus video

How Your Church Can Help People Recover from Sexually Related Trauma, with Rachel Bren

Karl Vaters talks with Rachel Bren about how SRTServices.org can come alongside your church to give you the tools to help people who are dealing with sexually related trauma.

Links:

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Ep 104: What Is the Minimum for a Church to be Viable? with Sam Peters

Thu, 05 Jun 2025 10:30:00 -0700

Karl Vaters interviews Sam Peters about the microchurch model, and more specifically, what are the minimum aspects that need to be in place for a church to be a church?

If you’re serving a small church that’s considering if you have a viable path forward, the microchurch model is worth considering, and Sam offers some help for thinking about it in fresh, new ways.

Sam Peters is a church consultant, and the author of several books, including Small Church, Big Opportunity; BIG Faith: Six Key Factors that Grow Your Faith in God, & Rebuilding Stronger: Navigating the Post-Pandemic Landscape of Worship.

Links:

SmallChurchCoaching.com
LinkTree
You can follow Sam on Facebook and X

Bonus video

The Limitations of the Institutional Church in Reaching the Community

Karl Vaters interviews Sam Peters about some of the limitations that are now coming to light about the institutional church model (building, salary, etc.) that we’ve both spent our lives in. The challenges we talk about include:

1. Physical and Financial Constraints: Many churches invest most of their resources into maintaining buildings and programs rather than directly engaging the lost. This is especially difficult for smaller congregations.

2. Passive Churchgoers Instead of Active Disciple-Makers: Institutional churches can unintentionally foster a consumer mindset, where members attend services but are not equipped to lead or disciple others.

3. Limited Reach Beyond Church Walls: Most churches expect people to come to them rather than embedding the Gospel in everyday life and relationships.

4. Slow Adaptation to Cultural Shifts: In an age of rapid change, large churches with complex structures often struggle to pivot quickly to meet new challenges and opportunities.

5. Overemphasis on Sunday Gatherings: The primary focus in many churches is the Sunday experience, but disciple-making happens most effectively in smaller, relational environments.

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 103: Helping Small Churches Win Guests, with Desmond Barrett

Thu, 22 May 2025 11:26:00 -0700

Karl Vaters interviews Desmond Barrett about how small churches can do a better job at reaching, welcoming, and keeping guests.

Desmond is the author of Helping Small Churches Win Guests: Preparing to Increase Attendance, which is a short, but very practical book that pastors will find great benefit in.

Karl and Desmond talk about:

How to reimagine the church facility from the parking lot to the pew
Why sharing updates about facility improvements is attractive to guests
Why so many pastors and church leaders resist doing what needs to be done
Why “we just need to attract young families” is never the answer
The good news that new Christians are not looking for programs, they’re wanting to live on mission

Links:

Bonus video

5 Options When a Church Property is Too Big for the Congregation, with Desmond Barrett

Karl Vaters talks with Desmond Barrett, the author of Helping Small Churches Win Guests: Preparing to Increase Attendance, about a subject that is a challenge for a growing number of congregations. What can you do when a church facility that was built to hold hundreds of people has just a handful or worshipers left?

The five options they discuss are:

Do Nothing
Share the Property
Rent the Property
Sell the Property
Recreate the Property

Links: Helping Small Churches Win Guests: Preparing to Increase Attendance

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 102: Five Trends In Technology and the Church, with Brad Hill

Thu, 08 May 2025 11:22:00 -0700

Karl Vaters interviews Brad Hill about some of the latest findings concerning the church and technology.

Brad is the Chief Solutions Officer at Gloo, an organization that came out of nowhere a few years ago, and now seems to be everywhere.

After clarifying Karl’s curiosity about who/what Gloo actually is, they talk about some of the important findings from a recent study Gloo conducted with Barna.

If you’re not an early adopter of technology, this can help you navigate the fast-changing landscape without getting bogged down in details.

The five findings Karl and Brad discuss are:

Christians see huge potential for churches to use digital tools effectively.
Churchgoers want pastors to address AI use thoughtfully and wisely.
Gen Z may live online, but they still crave in-person relationships over digital connections.
Practicing Gen Z Christians feel uncertain about whether AI is a faithful tool.
Pastors are intentional about using tech but still prioritize relationships and collaboration as the foundation of ministry.

Links:

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 101: Ministry Sustainability without Money Stress, with Eric Hoke

Thu, 24 Apr 2025 00:00:00 -0700

Eric Hoke is known as the “I Help Pastors Get Jobs” Guy.

Karl Vaters talks with Eric about how to build long-term sustainable ministry, reduce financial stress, and create value in the marketplace by becoming an intentionally covocational pastor.

Eric’s new book, Market Street Pastor: Ministry Sustainability without Money Stress, addresses many of the issues involved in making the shift toward covocational ministry.

This conversation covers the subjects of:

The mindset shift that most pastors must take to start down this road
The value pastors bring to the marketplace
Finding your marketable skills through using the Heart- Head-Hands-Feet method
How to get through the clutter of thousands of job applicants
How to present yourself and your skills
And so much more

Links from this episode:

Market Street Pastor: Ministry Sustainability without Money Stress
IHelpPastorsGetJobs.com
Daily Examen App: "Reimagining the Examen" for iphone and android

Bonus Content

How to Build a LinkedIn Profile that Will Get Job Leads, with Eric Hoke

LinkedIn remains a primary online site for those seeking employment, and it’s especially helpful for pastors seeking covocational employment.

In this very practical conversation, Eric Hoke talks with Karl Vaters about some common mistakes to avoid and opportunities to take advantage of that will get you noticed—and get the side hustle job that suits your skills and needs.

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 100: The Pastor, the Bible, and Growing Up In a Pastor’s Home (with Albert Vaters)

Thu, 10 Apr 2025 00:00:00 -0700

For Episode 100, Karl Vaters has a very special conversation with his father, Albert Vaters, about the pastor’s relationship with God’s Word, the Bible.

In addition to each of them spending 40 years as pastors (over 80 years of combined pastoral ministry!), they were also both raised as preacher’s kids, so they can speak from multiple perspectives about life in a pastor’s home.

In this conversation, Karl and Albert talk about:

What it was like to be raised with a positive experience in a pastor’s home
How to give the Bible a central place in our homes
The importance of living what you’re preaching
How to approach the Bible correctly as a pastor and a parent
And more

Links:

Ep 099: Russ Taff, on Childhood Trauma, Church Hurt, Alcoholism, Fame, Redemption, and His New Album

Thu, 27 Mar 2025 00:00:00 -0700

Karl Vaters talks with Russ Taff. One of the great voices of Contemporary Christian Music (CCM) in the 1970s-90s, Russ won five Grammys, 13 Dove Awards, and was inducted into the Gospel Music Hall of Fame three times (with the Imperials, the Gaither Vocal Band, and as a solo artist).

He also spent decades struggling with alcoholism, church hurt, and shame, stemming from the severe trauma he experienced in the pastor's house of his childhood.

This interview is raw. It’s real, and it’s very emotional.

In addition to talking through his testimony at length, Karl and Russ also take a song-by-song walk through his newest album, which is a journey through his story of pain, trauma, lament, and redemption.

Links:

Ep 098: Ten Things They Didn't Tell Me About Leadership, with Alberto Bello

Thu, 13 Mar 2025 00:00:00 -0700

Alberto Bello is a church planter in Bakersfield CA, and he’s written one of those books everyone says they could write, Ten Things They Didn't Tell Me About Leadership.

Karl Vaters talks with Alberto about that book, the experiences that led to it, and the lessons to be learned from it.

Including:

Knowing who you are in Jesus
The Comparison Trap
How failure is necessary for success
How not to be people-pleasing leader
And more

Links:

Ten Things They Didn't Tell Me About Leadership

EP 097: Getting Your Church on the Road to Greater Health, with Mike Rubino

Thu, 27 Feb 2025 00:00:00 -0700

Mike Rubino is a pastor in the unique ministry environment of Long Island NY. He’s also the founder and director of Church Revitalize, which helps churches that need to revitalize their ministry, through cohorts, coaching, and more.

Karl Vaters talks with Mike about church revitalization, with a focus on Mike’s new workbook, The Revitalize Roadmap: Getting Your Church on the Road to Greater Health.

Subjects include:

The difference between church growth and church revitalization
The importance of pastoral health and renewal
How to understand and fix your church’s blind spots
Identifying your church’s God-given Geographic Responsibility
And more

Links:

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 096: Disability Inclusion In the Church, with Barb Stanley

Thu, 13 Feb 2025 00:00:00 -0700

Every church should be open to everyone who wants to attend. So, we need to be more purposeful about making sure we're not unintentionally denying access without realizing it.

Barbara Stanley oversees Wonderful Works Ministry, which equips churches to serve families affected by disability. They have a large and growing set of resources to help churches of all types.

Karl Vaters talks with Barb about a variety of subjects, including:

Why disability inclusion matters
How to come alongside families who are affected by disability
How every church can take some simple first steps toward disability inclusion
How to deal with some of the changing language around disability

Links:

Ep 95: The Clergy Sabbatical Toolkit, with Sean Nemecek

Thu, 30 Jan 2025 09:45:00 -0700

A clergy sabbatical is not a luxury for the few, it’s an essential element in recalibrating your ministry and reestablishing healthy habits for ministry longevity.

Sabbaticals are having a moment right now. With the accelerated pace of life and ministry, we’re recognizing their value in a fresh, new way.

Sean Nemecek and the team at Pastor In Residence Ministries have been working with pastors for years, helping them get the most out of a sabbatical. And now they’ve put it all in one place with the Clergy Sabbatical Toolkit,, a practical guide that will help pastors, their congregations, and their families.

Karl Vaters talkes with Sean talk about the aspects of an effective sabbatical, including:

What is a sabbatical?
Why is a sabbatical important for pastors?
What’s the ideal sabbatical length?
Dealing with common objections to taking a sabbatical
Financial considerations
And more

Links:

Bonus Content

Anger, Depression, and Temptation: Dealing with the Unexpected on Your Sabbatical, with Sean Nemecek

Stuff happens when you step away from the hectic pace of everyday ministry life to take a multi-month sabbatical. Most of it is good, some of it is surprising, and if you’re not ready for it, some of it can cause damage.

Thankfully, Sean Nemecek and the team at Pastor In Residence Ministries have been working with pastors for years, helping them get the most out of their sabbaticals. And now they’ve put it all in one place with the Clergy Sabbatical Toolkit.

In this conversation, Karl Vaters talks with Sean about some of the unexpected things that happen on sabbatical, so you can be prepared to get the most out of your time of refreshing and renewal.

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 94: Using Storytelling Techniques to Make Your Message Stick, with Payton Minzenmayer

Thu, 16 Jan 2025 09:27:00 -0700

Have you ever noticed that people don’t pay attention to sermons the way they used to? It may not be the fault of shorter attention spans (not exclusively, anyway). There’s a lot more happening — and we, as pastors and communicators can do something about it.

Karl Vaters talks with Payton Minzenmayer. He's a pastor, and the founder of ChristianStoryLab.com, a new website that offers great ideas to make our writing and speaking more engaging by using the aspects of story — just like Jesus did.

Some of what they talk about includes:

Gamification
The Open Loop Method
The Anapastic Meter

Links:

You can follow Payton on LinkedIn and X.

Bonus video (Supporters and Subscribers only)

3 Simple Habits to Elevate Your Writing and Speaking, with Payton Minzenmayer

Storytelling is the most powerful form of communication. But most of us could use help to do it better. Karl Vaters talks with Payton Minzenmayer, of ChristianStoryLab.com, about the three habits Payton uses every day to strengthen his storytelling muscles. They’re simple, repeatable, and so helpful.

Links:

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 93: Cultivating a Multiethnic Kingdom Culture, with Jamaal Williams and Timothy Paul Jones

Thu, 02 Jan 2025 09:55:00 -0700

According to John’s vision in Revelation 7:9, heaven will be filled with people who are still recognized by their ethnicity (every nation, tribe, people, and language). So, if we want the church here and now to reflect that, Sunday mornings must stop being the most segregated time of the week.

That’s the premise of Karl Vaters’ conversation with Jamaal Williams and Timothy Paul Jones, the co-authors of In Church as It Is in Heaven: Cultivating a Multiethnic Kingdom Culture, which Karl named as one of his best nonfiction books of the year for 2024.

Jamaal and Timothy focus on what we can do to create a more kingdom-minded approach to ethnic diversity, while acknowledging that ethnic diversity is not the point of the church, but a byproduct of the gospel message.

Links:

In Church as It Is in Heaven: Cultivating a Multiethnic Kingdom Culture

Bonus video

3 Steps to Move Your Church Toward Multiethnic Generosity, with Jamaal Williams and Timothy Paul Jones

One of the habits (liturgies) that Jamaal Williams and Timothy Paul Jones suggest in their book, In Church as It Is in Heaven: Cultivating a Multiethnic Kingdom Culture, is to help your church move toward multiethnic generosity.

Karl Vaters talks with them as they suggest a simple plan to visit a faithful, gospel-driven church outside your own ethnicity or culture once every three months. Embrace this habit as an opportunity to learn from sisters and brothers in other cultures. And when you do, walk through these three steps:

Consider your own preferences
Visit the other church
Be grateful for your preferences—and be willing to lay them down

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 92: How Christianity Became The Air We All Breathe, with Glen Scrivener

Thu, 19 Dec 2024 07:47:00 -0700

The crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus changed everything. Not just for eternity, but for the world here and now.

According to Glen Scrivener, the author of The Air We Breathe, How We All Came to Believe In Freedom, Kindness, Progress, and Equality, most of what we now consider to be self-evident human values were not so evident or common before Jesus.

In this conversation, Karl and Glen talk about:

How so many principles that most people consider universal, are actually the result of the Christian worldview
Why this goes unnoticed by people, Christians and non-Christians alike
Why it’s important to regain this understanding
What the values of the world looked like before the cross upended everything
How a clear understanding of the first three chapters of Genesis is the foundation for all of it

Podcast Links:

Bonus Summary

How Good Theology Became the Basis for Good Science, with Glen Scrivener

Good theology and good science are good friends. In this short conversation with Glen Scrivener, Karl Vaters asks him about the three legs upon which this reality sits.

These three principles become clear when we have a better understanding of the first three chapters of the Bible:

The freedom of God
That humans can understand God’s ways
Taking human fallibility into account

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 91: The Prophetic Voice of Deconstruction, with Scot McKnight

Thu, 05 Dec 2024 00:15:00 -0700

Karl Vaters talks with Scot McKnight about what we can learn from those who are deconstructing their faith.

This conversation is based on the content of Scot’s new book (co-written with Tommy Preson Phillips), Invisible Jesus: A Book about Leaving the Church and Looking for Christ.

This is a challenging book and a challenging conversation, especially if you are to the right of center theologically and politically (like Scot and Karl). But I encourage you not to write it off for those reasons.

Scot makes the case, through personal observation and thorough statistics, that people who use a term like “deconstruction” are probably not leaving Jesus, but are usually trying to find a simpler, more genuine representation of him than what they’ve seen in many of our churches. Deconstructors are asking important questions and shining a light on issues we need to pay attention to.

Links from this Episode:

Bonus Content Summary

The Three Stages of Deconstruction

From chapter 6 of Invisible Jesus: A Book about Leaving the Church and Looking for Christ, Scot McKnight shares the three distinct steps most deconstructors go through (Liminality, Elimination, and Liberation), and what they mean.

Knowing these phases can be very helpful for us, as church leaders, to be involved in the conversation with them. When we step into this space instead of running from it, we have the chance to learn, and to guide them as they seek to draw closer to Jesus.

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 90: How Bible Reading Can Jumpstart Your Church’s Discipleship, with Matt Lucas

Thu, 21 Nov 2024 09:35:00 -0700

Karl Vaters interviews Matt Lucas about starting your congregation on the road to spiritual maturity through increasing their Bible reading. Specifically, how reading the Bible at least four times a week is so powerful, it's been called "The Power of Four."

Matt is the CEO of Our Daily Bread (known for their quarterly devotionals) and The Center for Bible Engagement.

Karl and Matt talk about:

What is The Power of Four?
Why does reading the Bible 4+ times a week make such a difference in spiritual maturity?
The importance of reading and hearing the Bible in church
Helpful ways to gauge spiritual maturity
How to use Power of Four to help a congregation become more mature

Links:

Bible Engagement: A Key to Spiritual Growth
Center for Bible Engagement
A Non Anxious Presence by Mark Sayers

Bonus Content Summary

A Congregational Survey to Help Track Your Congregation’s Spiritual Maturity, with Matt Lucas

How do you know if your congregation is maturing? Tracking church attendance is not enough.

Matt Lucas and the team at Our Daily Bread are creating a powerful new tool to help pastors and their congregations.

In this Bonus Material, Karl Vaters talks with Matt as he shows us this new tool, explaining what it will do, how easy it will be, and how you’ll be able to use it to lead your congregation well.

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 89: Vibrant Ministry After Retirement Age, with Lisa Northway

Thu, 07 Nov 2024 05:00:00 -0700

Retirement isn’t what it used to be. In the U.S. military, retirement is mandatory at 62 years of age, but U.S. Army Garrison Chaplain (MAJ) Lisa A. Northway is an exception to that. Lisa, who’s currently stationed in Fort Sill, OK, has been called the “Grandma Moses” of the Army Chaplaincy. She recently received permission to extend her chaplaincy for a few more years.

In this podcast, Karl Vaters talks with Lisa about how to have vibrant ministry past retirement age, including

The value of long-term experience in today’s ministry environment
How to pace yourself for the long-term
How not to block the way for younger ministers
How to mentor younger ministers

Links from this Episode:

Elizabeth Fulgaro's Eagles Nest
Book: The Fantasy Fallacy by Shannon Ethridge
Book: Unwanted by Jay Stringer
Book: The Awakened Brain by Dr. Lisa Miller

Bonus Content

Navigating the Challenges of Being a Woman In Ministry, with Lisa Northway

What roles does the Bible allow women to serve in the church? This is a hot-button topic, for sure. In this conversation, Karl Vaters talks with U.S. Army Garrison Chaplain Lisa Northway about the challenges she faces as a woman in ministry, and how to address those issues among the troops she serves.

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 088: The Gift of Small: Embracing Your Church’s Vocation, with Allen T. Stanton

Thu, 24 Oct 2024 00:00:00 -0700

Small churches aren’t a problem to fix, they’re a unique part of the body of Christ that has gifts we need to embrace.

Karl Vaters talks with Allen T. Stanton about the importance of embracing what’s right about small churches, not in spite of being small, but because they’re small, in a conversation based on the content of Allen's book, The Gift of Small: Embracing Your Church’s Vocation.

Some of the subjects they cover include:

A new take on the “all growth is good growth” assumption, based on the fact that we live in a culture that is so economically driven
Why small churches should be more nimble, but often are not
The differences between a hierarchical leadership model and the Solar System Model
The importance of the “Parking Lot meeting”
The differences between regular and episodic volunteers

Links:

Bonus Content

Four Practices to Help Your Small Church Stay Nimble, with Allen T. Stanton

Karl Vaters talks with Allen T. Stanton about the importance of:

Acknowledging the places where small-membership churches are already good at change and where they already practice being adaptive and flexible.
Remembering that not everything needs to change all the time.
The looseness of small-church relational networks, rather than strict hierarchies and complicated bureaucracies.
Understanding and appropriately managing the roles of individuals in the organization.

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 087: Covocational Pastoring: What It Is, And Why You Should Consider It (with Jon Sanders)

Thu, 10 Oct 2024 10:15:00 -0700

Working a side hustle is no longer the exception for pastors, it’s the norm. Embracing it might answer a lot of your (and your church’s) needs.

Karl Vaters talks with Jon Sanders about the rise in covocational pastoring and why it’s something more pastors, especially small-church pastors, should take seriously. Jon is the co-host of the EntrePastors Podcast and the co-founder of EntrePastors.com (with Les Hughes).

The culture around us is shifting. The idea that someone entering the workplace will get a single full-time job to pay the bills is a rarity. And the church is no exception. But, unlike the secular marketplace, we shouldn’t be playing catch-up with this. We can lead.

Jon and Karl talk about several important aspects of bivo/covo ministry, including:

Why this is a growing need
How to make the shift without neglecting the church
The difference between bivocational and covocational
How to prepare your congregation for a covocational pastorate

And more.

Jon also serves as the Director of Coaching for the 95Network, a ministry that specializes in serving small to midsize churches.

Podcast Links:

Bonus Material

Finding a Covocational Job That Fits a Pastor’s Skills and Schedule, with Jon Sanders

What marketplace jobs work well for covocational pastors?

The skills you have honed as a pastor are highly desirable in the secular marketplace. But how can they be turned into a paying job that won’t interfere with your pastoral calling?

In the bonus conversation I talk to Jon Sanders of EntrePastors.com about how to make that transition, including several real-life examples of pastors who have made that transition well.

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 086: Vibrant Ministry From A Traditional Building In A Difficult City, with Tim Walker

Thu, 26 Sep 2024 00:00:00 -0700

Why would a young church planter choose to do ministry in the poorest neighborhood of a city in crisis?

Many churches are fleeing the inner cities. Grand old church buildings with deep histories sit empty. But Tim Walker and Restored Church are facing these realities head-on in Wilkes-Barre PA.

Karl Vaters talks with Tim about subjects like:

Their church’s Hub for Movement strategy
Their decision to do ministry in the poorest part of town
Ministry in a deeply post-Christian context
Honoring history, while moving into the future from a legacy church building
Their plan to plant a microchurch on every block of Wilkes-Barre

Links from this episode:

Bonus Content

How To Foster Pastoral Collaboration In Your Town, with Tim Walker

Karl Vaters talks with Tim Walker about how he and other pastors in his town have created a network of ministry collaboration that blesses all churches and reaches the community more effectively.

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 085: The Necessity of Being Offended by Jesus, with Chase Replogle

Thu, 12 Sep 2024 00:00:00 -0700

Karl Vaters talks with Chase Replogle about one of the most controversial, but unavoidable topics today—living with offense without being offended. This material comes from his just-released book, A Sharp Compassion: 7 Hard Words to Heal Our Insecurities and Free Us from Offense.

Karl and Chase talk about why offense is a necessary part of life, how to use it well, and deal with it properly.

Subjects include:

How Jesus intentionally used offensive words in strategic situations to bring about desired results
The importance of discipleship
How the absence of close relationships makes us more offendable
How church leaders can help those who struggle with being offended
And more

Chase Replogle is also the author of The 5 Masculine Instincts: A Guide to Becoming a Better Man, and is the host of the Pastor Writer Podcast. He pastors the Bent Oak Church in Springfield, Missouri.

Links from this episode:

Life Together by Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Bonus Content Summary

The Danger Of The Cult Of Self-affirmation

Karl Vaters talks with Chase Replogle about the dangers of using self-affirmation as a guide to life and truth. Recent surveys have shown that self-affirmation, and specifically “how I feel at the moment” have widely replaced universal truths in many people’s lives.

It’s also made its way into the church. While 91% of U.S. adults agree that “the best way to find yourself is by looking within yourself,” 76% of practicing Christians agreed with that statement.

As Chase wrote in A Sharp Compassion, “Religion has not disappeared from America, as so many feared; instead, it has, like everything from our entertainment to our diets, become personalized. It has shifted from the risk of offense to the affirmation of the self.”

Ep 084: How To Do A Great Trunk-or-Treat At Your Church, with Darrell Stetler

Thu, 29 Aug 2024 00:00:00 -0700

In September and October over 1.2 million people will search online for “Trunk-or-Treat near me.” Here’s how to be one of the churches they find.

Karl Vaters talks with Darrell Stetler about practical steps to help churches of any size put on a high-quality, gospel-centered Trunk-or-Treat event. Darrell is a small-church pastor in Oklahoma City and he has created a free 23-page guide called Trunk-orTreat Planning for Churches: A Step-by-step Guide.

Karl and Darrell talk about:

The benefits of having a church Trunk-or-Treat
Picking a theme
Who it’s designed to reach
When to start planning
Recruiting volunteers
How to gather info from attenders
How to follow up

Podcast Links:

Free 23-page Planning Guide with Trunk-or-Treat Ideas for Churches
The Gospel Trunk-or-Treat Planning System
Previous Darrell Stetler Interview (Ep 38)

Also from Darrell Stetler:

NewStart Discipleship Curriculum
Free New Believer Bible Reading Plan (1 Page PDF)
Free audiobook on Discipling Your Children
Free NewStart Discipleship Journal: A 54-page Discipleship Bible Study for new Christians.
Free one-hour Discipleship Training workshop

Social media:

Bonus Summary

Yes, Your Church Can Do Trunk-or-Treat without Compromising Your Christian Values, with Darrell Stetler

If you have problems with Halloween, I'm right there with you. Not a fan. In this short video, Darrell Stetler and Karl Vaters talk about:

Why our churches do a trunk-or-treat
The three attitudes Christians can have toward Halloween
The misunderstood non-pagan origins of Halloween
Why it’s okay for churches to offer a safe, Bible-based alternative

Bonus Content Links:

Halloween: A Distinctively Christian Holiday
Free 23 Page Planning Guide with Trunk or Treat Ideas for Churches
The Gospel Trunk or Treat Planning System
To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 083: Flyover Church: Jesus' Ministry in Rural Places, with Brad Roth

Thu, 15 Aug 2024 00:00:00 -0700

Karl Vaters talks with Brad Roth about the content from his new book, Flyover Church: How Jesus’ Ministry in Rural Places Is Good News Everywhere, for which Karl wrote the foreword.

Topics include:

How the rural church is different from the city and suburban church, not just in scale, but in type
How metrics are very different in the rural church
The lure of strategy
The radically different pace of rural ministry
And more

Brad is also the author of The Hunger Inside: How the Meal Jesus Gave Transforms Lives, and God's Country: Faith, Hope, and the Future of the Rural Church.

Links:

Brad Roth Bonus Chat summary

One New Person: Toward An Authentic Metric For The Rural Church

Karl Vaters talks with Brad Roth about how and why metrics work very differently in rural churches than in urban and suburban churches. As Brad wrote, “Most of us don’t need numbers to know whether our church is thriving. Numbers often stand in for intuition and attempt to substitute with a dashboard what can only be learned through years spent with a people in a place.”

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 082: Pastoring Difficult People, with Craig T. Owens

Thu, 01 Aug 2024 00:00:00 -0700

Sometimes pastors are our own worst enemy, so we need to recognize that God chose us for this work.

There’s probably not a single pastor (at least not a long-term pastor) who can’t relate to the title of Craig T Owens’ latest book, When Sheep Bite: Help for Shepherd Leaders Who May Have Felt the Painful Bites.

In this conversation, Karl Vaters talks with Craig about what those bites mean, where they come from and what to do about them. Then they spend the bulk of the episode covering the chapters that make up the meat of his book:

When the Sheep Flatter You
When the Sheep Criticize You
When the Sheep Gossip About You
When the Sheep Slander You
When the Sheep Question Your Authority
When the Sheep Abandon You

Links:

BONUS MATERIAL

Navigating Your Way Through Good Stress And Bad Stress, with Craig Owens

Karl Vaters interviews Craig T Owens about the fact that there are two kinds of stress that we all face:

Unbalanced, unhealthy stress, which we call distress
Balanced, healthy stress, which is known as eustress

In life, as in ministry, it’s essential that we know the difference, and that we’re aware of how to reduce the negative, while embracing and growing with the positive.

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 081: Should Your Church Consider the Microchurch Model?, with Frank Wooden

Thu, 18 Jul 2024 07:00:00 -0700

Karl Vaters talks with Frank Wooden about Microchurches. Frank has been a church planter for decades, but is now concentrating on the Microchurch model as a valid, healthy alternative in a changing cultural landscape.

Karl and Frank talk about:

What Microchurch is
Why it’s so appealing right now
Some cautions to be aware of
Three reasons the Microchurch model can work for a church of any size
How the Microchurch model might be the answer for many churches in crisis

And more

Links:

Bonus Content Summary

How to Help an Existing Church Adapt to the Microchurch Model

Karl Vaters talks with Frank Wooden about the value of the Microchurch model as an alternative for a church in crisis. They discuss how this model might help answer financial challenges, the importance of being proactive, what to do with a church’s institutional assets if they adapt this model, and how to address concerns from mature members.

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 080: Practical Ideas that Work In Small Churches, with Laurie Acker

Thu, 04 Jul 2024 07:00:00 -0700

Karl Vaters talks with Laurie Acker about the changing face of small church ministry, especially as it relates to recruiting, training, and relying on the volunteers who are so essential in helping small churches survive and thrive in a changing world.

Laurie runs SmallChurchMinistry.com, an online ministry that provides resources and support for volunteers and ministry leaders in smaller churches. Ministries like this are so important because they help provide practical help for the volunteers who do small-church ministry without any prior training.

Links from this episode:

Website: https://smallchurchministry.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/smallchurchministry/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/smallchurchministry
Creative Solutions for Small Churches Facebook Community: https://www.facebook.com/groups/smallchurchministry
Small Church Network & Academy: https://smallchurchministry.com/membership/
Email: Laurie@smallchurchministry.com
Book: One Thing Remains

Bonus Content

Karl Vaters talks with Laurie Acker about Using a Planning Party to Jumpstart Youth/Kids Ministry. She suggests who should be involved, when to hold the meeting, and more.

Karl and Laurie also talk about how healthy small churches are uniquely suited to meet the needs of youth and kids in an environment that values relationships and connection over programs and professionalism.

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 079: Church Collaboration and Killing Consumerism in a Post-Christian Context, with Dan Nichols

Thu, 20 Jun 2024 07:00:00 -0700

Pastoring in a post-Christian context is different. The more counter-cultural our faith becomes, the more important it is to understand that Christian consumerism is deadly and church cooperation is essential.

Karl Vaters talks with Dan Nichols about these subjects, including:

Negotiating a cultural shift in a longstanding church
Partnering with other churches
Bridging the big/small church divide
And more

Dan Nichols is the pastor of Grace Christian Fellowship in Cortland NY, and the founder of Northeast Collaborative.

Links:

Bonus Content

Karl Vaters talks with Dan Nichols about Creating a Spirit of Generosity in a Local Church. Dan’s church takes an offering every year that they give away in its entirety to ministries outside their church. This year it will go to nine other local churches that they work alongside.

Karl and Dan talk about how that kind of generosity happens, and what a pastor can do to start moving a church away from fear and toward being outrageously generous.

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 078: De-sizing the Church (pt 10): First Reactions from Church Leaders

Thu, 06 Jun 2024 07:00:00 -0700

As we come to the end of our ten-part series based on De-sizing the Church, we’re highlighting portions of conversations Karl Vaters had with five church leaders from various backgrounds about their first reactions to reading the book.

Drew Dyck (author and editor) talks about the dangers of Christian celebrity.
Peyton Jones (author and church planter) discusses how churches operating under the church growth paradigm are more likely to be in decline than growth.
Greg Atkinson (author and church consultant) highlights the importance of broadening our understanding of church size and health.
Stan Givens (pastor) comments on the importance of churches working together, and the essential role of discipleship.
Sean Nemecek (author and soul care coach) looks at the high rates of burnout due to chasing numbers, and digs into the revivalist history of the Great Awakenings.

Links:

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Ep 077: De-Sizing The Church (pt 9): The Danger of Idolizing Outcomes, with Mike Rubino

Thu, 30 May 2024 07:00:00 -0700

Karl Vaters talks with Mike Rubino about his First Reaction to the first chapter of De-sizing the Church, The Danger of Idolizing Outcomes.

Karl and Mike look at:

The difference between a church that is trending or transforming
The biggest mistakes churches make regarding metrics
Why “idolatry” is not too strong a term for how many churches and pastors approach size, growth, and outcomes
And more.

When we’re obsessed with doing something that Jesus never told us to do we’re always in danger of it becoming an idol. And the weight of that is more than we can bear.

Mike Rubino is the pastor of Cornerstone Bible Church, Port Jefferson Station, on Long island NY, and the founder of the Church Revitalize Center.

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Ep 076: De-Sizing the Church (pt 8): Are We Too Quick to Replatform Fallen Pastors? with Matt Steen

Thu, 23 May 2024 07:00:00 -0700

A conversation with Matt Steen about the potential dangers of replatforming fallen pastors too quickly.

This is the first of three First Reaction episodes in which I talk to people who read advance copies of De-sizing the Church to get their response to some of the issues I raise in it.

As the co-founder of Chemistry Staffing, which helps churches find great staff members, and staff members find awesome churches, Matt has a unique insight about the right time to replatform pastors after they’ve failed morally.

Matt and I also address the issues of Platform Addiction, the effect on victims when we replatform fallen pastors too quickly (or at all), and the important idea that restoring someone back into ministry doesn't always mean getting them back on a platform again.

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 075: De-Sizing the Church (pt 7) How To Use Your God-given Platform Well, with Daniel Darling

Thu, 16 May 2024 07:00:00 -0700

Fame and celebrity have many downsides. But Daniel Darling brings a balanced approach to this subject by reminding us that fame is also what allows a good message to get through the clutter.

In this episode, Karl talks with Dan about a Twitter thread Dan wrote expressing appreciation for the fame of Tim Keller.

It was Tim Keller's platform and the celebrity status it gave him that allowed Dan and so many others to be introduced to Keller’s teachings. Dan’s perspective on the value of having a platform is an important balance to our conversations about the dangers of celebrity.

Dan Darling is the director of The Land Center, a columnist for WORLD and an opinion contributor for USA Today.

Links:

Karl's new book, De-sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next, is now available wherever you buy books, either electronically or in print. If you’ve read the book and you’d like Karl to speak to your group about the issues he raises in it, reach out at KarlVaters.com/Contact Me.

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 074: De-Sizing the Church (pt 6): Reframing Ministry Success to Reach the Misfits and the Marginalized, with Dave Gibbons

Fri, 10 May 2024 15:53:00 -0700

What happens when a pastor sets out, not to minister to people who look like him, but to purposely reach people who look as different from his current congregation as possible?

That’s what Dave Gibbons, the founding pastor of Newsong Church in Orange County, CA did. In this episode, Karl Vaters talks with him about the planting of Newsong, the challenges Dave faced when he decided to guide them to look more like the diverse county they were ministering in.

Dave talks honestly and vulnerably about how the Holy Spirit challenged him to reach out to the misfits and the marginalized. This challenged him and the church in huge ways, including a massive drop in attendance that he had to find his way through emotionally, financially, and spiritually.

Karl's new book, De-Sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next is now available wherever you buy books, either electronically or in print. If you’ve read the book and you’d like Karl to speak to your group about the issues he raises in it, reach out at KarlVaters.com/contactme.

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 073: De-Sizing the Church (pt 5): Forming a Goodness Culture In the Local Church, with Scot McKnight

Thu, 02 May 2024 07:00:00 -0700

Meritocracy has become embedded in the American church. In this conversation, Karl Vaters talks with Scot McKnight about why this is dangerous, how to notice the warning signs of a toxic church culture, the problems with being or following a narcissistic leader, and more.

Scot McKnight is the co-author (with Laura Barringer) of A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing.

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 072: De-Sizing the Church (pt 4): Unintended Consequences of the Church Growth Movement, with Bob Smietana

Thu, 25 Apr 2024 07:00:00 -0700

Karl Vaters interviews Bob Smietana, a columnist for Religion News Service, and the author of Reorganized Religion: The Reshaping of the American Church and Why it Matters.

Bob and Karl discuss some of unintended consequences of the Church Growth Movement from Bob's unique vantage point. They also delve into the dangers of bigness and what we can do about it.

Then they discuss Smietana’s fascinating article, “There’s a Reason Every Hit Worship Song Sounds the Same,” and what it says about the current church culture.

Links

Karl's new book, De-Sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next is now available wherever you buy books, either electronically or in print. If you’ve read the book and you’d like me to speak to your group about the issues I raise in it, reach out to me at KarlVaters.com/contactme.

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 071: De-Sizing the Church (pt 3): What Eugene Peterson Is Still Teaching Us About Pastoral Ministry, with Winn Collier

Thu, 18 Apr 2024 07:00:00 -0700

If small church pastors have a modern patron saint, Eugene Peterson might be it.

In this episode, Karl Vaters talks with Peterson’s biographer, Winn Collier about the places where Winn’s book, A Burning in My Bones: The Authorized Biography of Eugene H. Peterson, Translator of The Message, overlaps with Karl's book, De-sizing the Church.

They talk about how Winn was entrusted to write Peterson’s authorized bio, why people (especially pastors) are still so fascinated by Peterson’s writings, his life, and the way he pastored. Then they narrow in on how Peterson accurately, but fairly critiqued the church growth movement and our obsession with bigness.

Finally, they address several parts of Peterson’s life and ministry that didn’t fit into De-sizing the Church, including:

How Peterson’s life connected with people even deeper than his writings did
The importance of pastoral presence
How Peterson pushed back against our size obsession and the institutionalism of a business-centered approach to church growth
The importance of those inefficient hours in a pastor’s life and schedule
And more

Links:

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Ep 070: De-Sizing the Church (pt 2): Why Christian Celebrity Culture Guarantees Moral Failure, with Katelyn Beaty

Thu, 11 Apr 2024 07:00:00 -0700

One of the biggest dangers of our obsession with church size is the rise of the Christian celebrity culture. Katelyn Beaty is the author of Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits Are Hurting the Church.

Katelyn defines celebrity as “social power without proximity.” In this conversation, Karl Vaters talks with Katelyn about what that means, why it’s a problem, and why we in the church are so susceptible to the lure of celebrity.

There’s also great hope for those who have been led astray by Christian celebrity culture, whether you’re the one following a celebrity, or if you’re the one desiring to be followed.

Links:

Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits Are Hurting the Church

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 069: De-Sizing the Church (pt 1): How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next, with Karl Vaters

Thu, 04 Apr 2024 07:00:00 -0700

We have an unhealthy relationship with bigness in the church. Especially in the American church. And it’s killing us. The rate of church closures, departing members, and pastoral burnout is growing exponentially.

This is the first episode of a series of podcasts based on Karl Vaters’ new book, De-Sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next. Karl talks about how we became so obsessed with bigness in the church, why it’s dangerous, and what we can do to change course.

Look for upcoming De-sizing the Church episodes in which Karl interviews Katelyn Beaty, Scot McKnight, Winn Collier, and more.

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 068: The Small Church Worship Advantage, with Teresa Stewart

Thu, 21 Mar 2024 07:00:00 -0700

Have you ever felt like your church is “less than” because you don’t have a worship experience with the talented musicians you’ve seen in larger churches? According to Teresa Stewart, not only is that not needed for an excellent worship experience, but the small church actually has advantages that are not always available to our big-church friends.

In this conversation, Karl Vaters talks with Teresa Stewart about some of those advantages, including:

The Happy Birthday Effect
Seeing and adjusting our aesthetic cues
Stone Soup planning
The value of small-church symbols
How to ask better questions about our worship experience
And so much more

Teresa Stewart is the author of The Small Church Advantage: Seven Powerful Worship Practices that Work Best in Small Settings.

Teresa’s approach is simple, practical, and applicable in most small-church settings. She challenges some of the ways we’ve thought about small-church worship, offers viable alternatives, then gives some wonderful step-by-step advice about how to curate worship to be more participatory without letting chaos reign.

Links from this Episode:

Bonus Content

The Role of Conversation in Small-Church Worship, with Teresa Stewart

Karl Vaters talks with Teresa Stewart about conversation can be incorporated into the small-church experience. She encourages us to start slow and small. And she helps us curate the experience so it doesn't become a free-for-all. As Teresa wrote in her book, “Conversation in worship is not an anything-goes pursuit. It should serve and deepen the worship. Begin by curating worship in one element of your usual order.”

On a very practical level, Teresa talks about the three levels of questions and conversation. Knowing these levels will help you approach this with wisdom and patience, allowing people to participate while maintaining a sense of direction.

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 067: Beyond Burnout: Growing a Healthy Soul, with Ian Borkent

Thu, 07 Mar 2024 08:00:00 -0700

Ian Borkent is a pastor in the Netherlands who walked through a season of ministry burnout and now helps pastors address this issue in their own lives through the ministry of Grow a Healthy Soul.

In this episode we’ll talk about the causes of pastoral burnout, how to avoid it, and how to recruit church members to the task of helping pastors by employing the five-fold ministry gifts.

Also, I’ll be sharing some of content of my new book, De-Sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next (coming April 2, 2024) and how our obsession with bigness is a major contributing factor to pastoral burnout, church scandals, and more.

Links From This Episode

Bonus Chat (Available to Patreon supporters and newsletter subscribers on our YouTube channel)

Helping Your Pastor Lead Beyond Burnout

Karl Vaters talks with Ian Borkent about how congregation members have a calling to help their pastor, including what pastors can do to let congregation members know they need their help.

They also talk about Bunjee Cord Leadership, plus the importance of simply asking for help, and working through the discomfort of not doing everything.

Link:

How to Lead and Still Have a Life: The 8 Principles of Less is More Leadership, by H. Dale Burke.

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Ep 066: Brain Science, Christian Connection, and Character Development, with Michel Hendricks

Thu, 22 Feb 2024 20:46:00 -0700

Our brains are the most important, but least understood part of our body. In this episode, Karl Vaters interviews Michel Hendricks about the fascinating place where faith and brain science intersect.

Michel is the co-author (with Jim Wilder) of The Other Half of Church: Christian Community, Brain Science, and Overcoming Spiritual Stagnation, which Karl listed as one of his top ten books in 2023.

If a conversation about brain science sounds intimidating, it’s not. Both the book and this conversation put the cookies on a low shelf for all of us.

Michel is the Director of Life Model Consulting at LifeModelWorks.org where he works with churches and organizations to help bring maturity and the transformation of character back into the center of Christian practice.

Links:

BONUS MATERIAL

The Importance of Joy and Gratitude in Ministry

Karl Vaters talks with Michel Hendricks, the co-author (with Jim Wilder) of The Other Half of Church: Christian Community, Brain Science, and Overcoming Spiritual Stagnation about the concept that “God designed our brains to run on joy like a car runs on fuel.”

The conversation includes why joy "leaks", how to refill our joy tank, and the three importance points of convergence about joy.

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 065: Helping Small Churches Thrive (A special message from Karl Vaters)

Thu, 08 Feb 2024 08:00:00 -0700

This is the second of two very special episodes that we’re doing in back-to-back weeks instead of our usual bi-weekly schedule.

This episode features the message I preached in January 2024, on the day our church honored Shelley and me for our 31 years of serving the church on staff.

In this message, I talked about what we’re doing next, including why God has called us to the ministry of Helping Small Churches Thrive.

It includes some of the key points we teach to Small Church Pastors, like:

The Theory of the Long Tail
The Grasshopper Myth
The Pastoral Prime Mandate
and more.

It also includes how people can support us in this new era of ministry.

We will no longer be receiving a salary from the church, but we’re raising all our own funds to be missionaries to the small churches in need. But the churches that need the help the most can afford it the least.

To become a financial supporter, please visit https://karlvaters.com/support/.

The message ends with one of the most touching stories I’ve ever heard about a Small Church Pastor who, like so many others, is one of the unsung heroes of the faith.

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Ep 064: The Value of Pastoral Longevity (Gary Garcia interviews Karl Vaters)

Thu, 01 Feb 2024 08:00:00 -0700

This is the first of two very special episodes that we’re doing in back-to-back weeks, instead of our usual bi-weekly schedule.

In January 2024, Karl and Shelley Vaters were honored by their home church as they ended 31 years on the pastoral staff—25 years as lead pastor, six years as teaching pastor. This, and the next episode of The Church Lobby are taken from that Sunday service.

This episode features an on-stage interview in which Gary Garcia (the current lead pastor), asks Karl about their time at Cornerstone. It’s a helpful look at the value of longevity for the pastor and the church and some insights into how they were able to navigate a healthy pastoral transition.

Be sure to stick around after the interview for some of Karl's important takeways for people in ministry.

You can watch the entire service on the CornerstoneFV YouTube channel, here.

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Ep 063: Using A.I. Without Losing Your Soul: A Step-by-Step Guide, with Jason Moore

Fri, 19 Jan 2024 08:01:00 -0700

A little over a year ago, A.I. came into our lives in a big way. Suddenly, it seemed to be everywhere.

Karl Vaters talks with Jason Moore about what A.I. is, why it came into our lives so suddenly, and what its strengths and dangers are.

Then they spend the bulk of this slightly longer-than-usual episode with Jason physically walking us through using A.I. in real time, showing it to us on his computer screen.

This is a great episode to watch on our YouTube Channel, but we also describe everything verbally, so you’ll get all the key information if you’re listening to audio only.

Links From This Episode:

This podcast episode on YouTube
Bard.Google.com
Chat GPT: Chat.Openai.com
Claud.ai
Magai.co
Elevenlabs.io
Email: Mail@MidnightoilProductions.com
https://www.facebook.com/midnightoilproductions/

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 062: Maybe You Shouldn't Live-Stream Your Church Service, with Tim Fox

Thu, 28 Dec 2023 08:01:00 -0700

Everyone has an opinion about live streaming, pro or con. As I sift through it, I only want to give a platform to the most helpful, thoughtful voices, and Tim Fox is one of them.

In this podcast, we talk about the content of a Facebook post Tim wrote that challenged the reasons most churches live stream their services, while offering some thoughtful alternatives.

Tim is not anti tech, but he is good at asking deeper questions about what we’re doing and why we’re doing it. He offers eight points, all of which are thoughtful, including two that really caught my attention. And all four of his alternatives are helpful.

Tim is a denominational leader in Georgia who spent several years leading a small church into a healthy turnaround.

Also, this episode marks a change in the way I close podcasts. From this point on, if I have closing words after the interview (and I may not always) it will be to add something new to the conversation, not just to give a summation of it. And that’s what I do at the end of this episode, so stick around for my additional thoughts.

Links From This Episode:

Bonus Chat (Available to Patreon supporters and newsletter subscribers on our YouTube channel)

Creating A Digital Disciple-making Strategy, with Tim Fox

Ask better questions. This is the essence of Tim Fox’s approach to ministry and his advice for us. In this bonus content, Tim talks to us about how to think better about how we engage people online as a lead-in and as supplemental to our in-person service, not as an alternative to it.

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 061: Why Reading Matters for Ministry, with Austin Carty

Thu, 14 Dec 2023 08:00:00 -0700

Pastors need to read, not just for information, but for formation.

Austin Carty and Karl Vaters cover topics like:

The importance of reading many types of books, not just works of theology and leadership
How reading helps us become more mature, wise, and caring
How reading the Bible with a sense of wonder helps embed its truths into our lives
How important it is to take reading seriously, not a luxury, or as something I squeeze in around ministry, but as an essential aspect of growing in life, faith, and ministry

Links from this episode:

Ministry In A Secular Age, by Andrew Root
e-mail: acarty@boulevardbaptist.com

Bonus Chat

How To Become A Pastor-reader (5 Takeaways), with Austin Carty

If you’ve had a hard time reading more, check out how Austin and Karl flesh out these following steps to becoming more of a pastor-reader:

See reading as a pastoral visit
Don’t start by trying to read too much
Hold no knowledge or writing in contempt
Trust that there is beauty to be found in all sorts of books
Try to read as much material off-line as possible.

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Ep 060: How Just Showing Up Can Change Everything, with Drew Dyck

Thu, 30 Nov 2023 18:27:00 -0700

Just showing up in people’s lives is such an important aspect of life and ministry.

Karl Vaters talks with Drew Dyck about why this is so important, as outlined in Drew’s new book, Just Show Up: How Small Acts of Faithfulness Change Everything (A Guide for Exhausted Christians).

Including:

The value of our physical presence in pastoral ministry
The importance of quantity vs quality time
How showing up is not the end game, it’s the onramp for healthy life and ministry

Links from this episode:

Pocket App
Website: https://www.drewdyck.com/
Facebook: drew.dyck
Instagram: drewndyck
X: @drewndyck

Bonus Chat

The Importance Of Letting Some Things Slide, with Drew Dyck.

Drew and Karl talk about how telling people “no” is not as costly as you might expect it to be, how to be more proactive in our schedules, and even how to decide which things to drop and which things to keep.

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 059: How Churches Can Stop Burning Out Pastors, with Josh Taylor

Thu, 16 Nov 2023 08:01:00 -0700

Burnout is a huge issue among pastors. But did you know there’s a simple (but not simplistic) way to start addressing and reducing burnout? And that your congregation can help you with it?

That’s the premise of Karl's conversation with Josh Taylor, based on his book, A Preach Well Church: How Churches Can Stop Burning Out Pastors.

Josh and Karl talk about what causes ministry stress, and how to start relieving that stress by doing the two primary tasks pastors are called to do – preaching and prayer.

They also talk about:

How good stewardship of a pastor’s time and energy should not be measured by what they do, but by what they focus on – prayer and preaching
That focusing on prayer and preaching does not – and should never – mean neglecting the other hands-on aspects of pastoral care
That planning and prioritizing our sermon prep time doesn’t just help us be better preachers, but it reduces the urgency, allowing us to be better caregiving pastor as well
and more

Links from this episode:

Bonus Chat

How Prayer Helps Reduce Ministry Stress (with Josh Taylor)

While stress reduction is not the main reason for prayer, it is a wonderful, often under-appreciated side effect in three ways:

It reminds us we are not alone
It’s not just about getting things from God, but about giving things to him
It gives us strength to handle criticism

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 058: The Power of Prayer In Church Revitalization, with Lavern E. “Bud” Brown

Thu, 02 Nov 2023 07:01:00 -0700

There are so many books about how to turn a lifeless church around. Most concentrate on the pastor’s role. But what about the role of the congregation members? In small churches, this is especially important.

Karl Vaters talks with Bud Brown about how to help the congregation become agents of life and hope in a dying church through the power of prayer, from the content of the book, Lifeless to New Life: Biblical prayers to resurrect the lifeless church.

The importance of praying the evangelistic prayers of the New Testament
Preparing the soil to receive a fresh vision
How to help a congregation embrace deep transition, not just surface change

Links from this episode:

https://www.turnaroundpastor.com/
Podcast, The Genius of Thomas Sowell - https://www.buzzsprout.com/1826734
email - bud@budbrown.net

Bonus Content

The 8 Prayers We Need For Church Revitalization, with Bud Brown

There are eight specific types of prayers that the New Testament tells us to pray.

In this bonus content, Karl Vaters talks with Lavern E. “Bud” Brown about each of those prayer types, from his recent book, Lifeless to New Life: Biblical prayers to resurrect the lifeless church, including what those prayers are, why they matter, and how they apply in church turnarounds.

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 057: How to Turn Board Meetings Into God Meetings, with Dave Beckwith

Thu, 19 Oct 2023 07:00:00 -0700

In a recent survey, 80 percent of respondents said "yes" to the question, “since serving on a church board, do you feel your spiritual life has declined?” Why is this happening, and what can be done about it?

In this episode, Karl Vaters talks with Dave Beckwith about How to Turn Your Board Meetings Into God Meetings, including

How our current corporate style of board meetings isn’t just unbiblical, it’s causing great harm to boards, pastors and the churches they serve
How to shift to a more biblical model
How to choose church leaders in a more biblical way
Advice about the best board sizes and term limits

Links from this Episode:

Book - Washed and Waiting
Standing Stone Ministry
Contact - Dave.B@Standingstoneministry.org

Bonus Chat

When God Uses a Drop In Numbers to Redirect Your Efforts, with Dave Beckwith

Karl Vaters and Dave Beckwith talk about issues related to church size, based on a story that Dave tells in his book, and that Karl cites in his new book, De-sizing the Church (coming April 2, 2024). Specifically we ask, what happens when a drop in attendance numbers isn’t loss, but simply a redirection?

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 056: You're Pastoring More People Than You Think, with Chad Brooks

Thu, 05 Oct 2023 07:01:00 -0700

With people attending church less frequently now, you average Sunday attendance represents a smaller percent of your regulars than ever befofe. And it affects how we pastor them and what they expect of the church in ways we may not realize.

Karl Vaters talks about this with Chad Brooks, a co-vocational pastor, blogger at RevChadBrooks.com, and the host of the Productive Pastor podcast, about:

Why church size matters— but not in the way you think it does
How to determine how many people you’re actually pastoring, since it’s changed a lot in the last couple years
Why the main weekend service may no longer be the wide end of your church funnel, anymore

Links:

Bonus Content

The Moving Target of Small, Medium, and Large Churches — And Why It Matters

Karl Vaters talks with Chad Brooks about three different ways of deciding whether your church is small, medium, or big, including some helpful information that Chad found from actually interviewing church members about it.

This is important to know because if one person thinks 100 is small, another thinks 100 is medium, and a third person thinks 100 is big, it will change what they do, how they learn, and what leadership principles they follow.

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 055: What I Learned By Taking A Sabbatical, with Karl Vaters

Thu, 21 Sep 2023 07:01:00 -0700

In this solo episode, Karl Vaters shares 22 lessons he learned on his recent sabbatical that will help you if you’re considering one yourself. Including:

How long it should be
How to prepare for it
What to expect, emotionally and mentally
How to fade in and fade out of it slowly
and more

BONUS MATERIAL

How We Found Great Churches On Our Sabbatical

In the supplement to this episode, Karl Vaters dives a little deeper into his experiences attending other churches on sabbatical, including:

Go with a friend you trust
Check out different Christian traditions
Go whether you feel like it or not

For a sabbatical coach, go to SeanNemecek.com.

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 054: 10 Surprising Stats That Prove Church Size Matters, with Brady Shearer

Thu, 07 Sep 2023 22:50:00 -0700

Karl Vaters talks with Brady Shearer, summarizing a report about church trends and church size.

Karl and Brady talk about those stats and what they mean for small church ministry, including:

How stats don’t tell you a church’s story, but they can help you see things you might not otherwise pay attention to
Good news about racial, age and ethnic diversity in churches over the last 20 years

Plus, Brady uses his technical skills from his work with Pro Church Tools, to help churches navigate the biggest time of change in the last 500 years, including huge recent shifts in the way social media promotes content that can be a big benefit to your church.

Links:

Bonus Chat

Vertical Video and Cross-Platform Posting

Karl talks with Brady Shearer about some of the very recent changes happening in social media and how content is promoted based on people’s likes, not their relationships.

Brady also helps us understand how to use vertical videos better, plus some very practical steps on how to post that content to all social media platforms.

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 053: The Secret Power of Kindness, with Greg Atkinson

Thu, 24 Aug 2023 07:00:00 -0700

Karl Vaters talks with Greg Atkinson, the author of several books, including The Secret Power of Kindness: 10 Keys to Unlocking Your Capacity to Change the World. Greg is probably most well-known as one of the leading church experts on hospitality and First Impressions.

In this conversation, Greg talks about his brave choice to end the cycle of abuse he inherited from his family and choose kindness instead. Plus, he answers several important questions, like

What is kindness?
Why is kindness so powerful?
Practical ways to become a kinder person

Links from this Episode:

The Secret Power of Kindness: 10 Keys to Unlocking Your Capacity to Change the World
Subscribe to Greg's Newsletter
https://firstimpressionsconference.com/
Gloo.com
greg@gregatkinson.com
Socials - @gregatkinson

Bonus Chat

Karl and Greg talk about Why is Unity in Such Short Supply in the Church?

In this video chat, they address some important trigger issues that Greg writes about in the last chapter of his book, including racism, politics, and more.

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 052: The Power of Forgiveness, with Dr. Bruce & Toni Hebel

Thu, 03 Aug 2023 16:10:00 -0700

Forgiveness may be the most desired, but among the least understood virtues found in scripture, and in life.

Karl Vaters talks with Dr. Bruce & Toni Hebel, co-authors of Forgiving Forward: Unleashing the Forgiveness Revolution. In this episode we talk about The Power of Forgiveness, including a lot of ideas that may feel counterintuitive to you, so lean in and hear the biblical foundation they’re building on. It may even reframe this entire issue for you.

They also provide answers to questions such as:

Why is forgiveness so hard to do?
What are some of the dangers of unforgiveness?
What are some of the blessings of forgiveness?
What if someone is having a hard time forgiving?

Links From This Episode:

Bonus chat

The 7 Protocols of Forgiveness with Dr. Bruce & Toni Hebel

The authors of Forgiving Forward: Unleashing the Forgiveness Revolution talk with Karl Vaters about the ingredients that go into forgiveness from a biblical standpoint. This is exclusive content for sponsors and subscribers at KarlVaters.com.

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 051: Unlock Your Bible, with Dianne Finkelde

Fri, 14 Jul 2023 18:12:00 -0700

Karl Vaters interviews Dianne Finkelde, the author of several books, including Unlock Your Bible: The How-to Study Guide for Everyday Christians.

Karl and Dianne talk about, not just the importance of reading the Bible, but how to read it in a way that the everyday person can understand it, appreciate it, and do what it says, including:

Letting the Bible explain the Bible
Hearing God as he speaks to us through its pages
How to remember what we read
Going deeper with character studies, word studies and more

Links From This Episode:

Unlock Your Bible: The How-to Study Guide for Everyday Christians

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Ep 050: How To Plan A Sabbatical, with Karl Vaters

Thu, 22 Jun 2023 23:45:00 -0700

If you've never taken a sabbatical or wondered why they matter, this podcast is a great introduction to it.

In this solo podcast, Karl Vaters talks about:

Why sabbaticals matter for pastors
An important lesson on time management from the life of the Apostle Paul
Why Karl is taking his sabbatical now
The sabbatical template he will follow
How to get the most out of a sabbatical

Links:

Bonus Chat

Karl talks about the DREAM acronym he will be using on his sabbatical:

Disengage from ministry and reengage with God
Reconnect by spending quality time with family and friends
Evaluate your ministry
Assess your needs
Move into your new way of living

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Ep 049: YouTube Strategy for Churches, with Sallie Guillory

Thu, 08 Jun 2023 17:00:00 -0700

Karl Vaters interviews Sallie Guillory, the author of YouTube Strategy for Churches: A practical guide for your church to reach more people through YouTube.

Karl and Sallie talk about some extremely practical ideas to use the world’s biggest video platform and second largest search engine to help people find your content, including:

How to get more mileage out of the content you’re already creating
Creating videos that answer the questions people are actually asking
How to create short videos from longer presentations
Why simple and helpful is more important than having high production values

And more.

Links:

YouTube Strategy for Churches: A practical guide for your church to reach more people through YouTube

Canva.com

Adobe express

Sean Cannell on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@seanTHiNKs

Bonus chat

6 Tips to Write Better Titles for Your Church’s YouTube Videos

In this bonus content, Karl talks with Sallie Guillory about some very simple, practical ways to get your titles seen through the clutter of YouTube, including:

How many words to use in your title
Using keywords correctly
The value of using question, numbers, and lists in the title

And more

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 048: Post-Pandemic Trends In Small Church Ministry, with Dale Sellers

Thu, 18 May 2023 07:00:00 -0700

Karl Vaters interviews Dale Sellers of the 95 Network, which provides resources for the 95 percent of churches that are not large.

In this conversation, Dale and Karl talk about some of the important issues facing small churches as we come out of the pandemic and look ahead to 5-10 years of fallout, including:

The need for rest and soul care for pastors
Why the expected wave of pastoral resignations hasn’t happened
What to do instead of chasing absent members
The importance of accurately defining your congregation’s current reality

Links:

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 047: Overcoming The Dangers of Elitist Christianity, with Michael Clary

Thu, 04 May 2023 07:01:00 -0700

Karl Vaters interviews Michael Clary about the dangers of what he calls Elitist Christianity.

This conversation was inspired by a Twitter thread Michael wrote in which he confessed to an arrogant attitude he had developed as a young, successful church planter. Michael found himself looking down on pastors and Christians who hadn’t had his training, even though they were the people whose shoulders he was standing on.

His vulnerability, confession, and repentance hold great lessons for all of us.

Links:

Michael Clary on Twitter: @DMichaelClary
Read Michael Clary’s Twitter Thread on Elitist Christianity
Read it here if you’re not on Twitter

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Ep 046: Team Leadership: Lessons from the Apostle Paul, with Ryan Lokkesmoe

Thu, 20 Apr 2023 07:01:00 -0700

Karl Vaters interviews Ryan Lokkesmoe, a church-planter and the author of a new book, Paul and His Team: What the Early Church Can Teach Us About Leadership and Influence.

Karl and Ryan talk about what we can learn from the way Paul worked with his ministry team, and how those lessons translate to ministry today. Including:

How Paul dealt with conflict, not seeing people as enemies to be defeated, but as people God loves and who can be redeemed just as he was redeemed.
Paul’s Kingdom Diplomacy as seen in a very helpful, eye-opening walk through the short, but challenging book of Philemon.
How Paul’s teaching and life match each other in the way he dealt with people.
How Paul prioritized constantly handing ministry off to the next generation.

Links from this episode:

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Ep 045: Dealing With Burnout In Ministry, with Sean Nemecek

Thu, 06 Apr 2023 07:00:00 -0700

Karl Vaters interviews Sean Nemecek, author of the just-released book, The Weary Leader’s Guide to Burnout: A Journey from Exhaustion to Wholeness. In this episode we’re talking to pastors who are wondering if they might be dealing with burnout in ministry.

Sean walks us through the following steps:

What is burnout, and why does it seem to be on the rise, lately?
How do I know if I’m struggling with is burnout?
How do I take steps to recover from burnout?
How do I protect myself from future burnout?

Sean also works with pastors through Pastor-in-Residence Ministries (pirministries.org), where his primary focus is on coaching pastors through burnout and recovery.

Links:

SeanNemecek.com
PastorSoul.com
PIRministries.org
@pastorsoul on Twitter and Instagram
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/sean.nemecek
The official website for the book is www.wearyleadersguide.com

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 044: Ministry in Today’s Rural Church, with Brad Roth

Thu, 23 Mar 2023 07:01:00 -0700

Karl Vaters interviews Brad Roth, a Mennonite pastor in rural Kansas, a blogger at DoxologyProject.com, and the author of God's Country: Faith, Hope, and the Future of the Rural Church.

Brad and Karl talk about four concepts from his book:

The importance of Rural church
Acedia
The importance of Place
A New Way to Measure Growth

They also have an important conversation about replacing the typical metrics of demographics and attendance with what Brad calls “getting weird” as we assess church health and growth. Specifically, Brad raises the idea of using “rule” rather than metrics as our baseline.

This episode will encourage you who serve in rural areas, and hopefully will inspire pastors in transition to keep small towns on your list of ministry options.

Links from this episode:

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Ep 043 : Church Metrics that Really Matter, with Craig T. Owens

Thu, 09 Mar 2023 20:01:00 -0700

Karl Vaters interviews Craig T. Owens, a pastor, author, co-host of the podcast “The Craig and Greg Show”, and a blogger at CraigTOwens.com.

In this conversation, Karl and Craig talk about the subjects addressed in his recent book, Shepherd Leadership: The Metrics that Really Matter.

Some of the important subjects include:

Using biblical metrics for pastoral ministry
The tendency to lead based in confidence or humility
The essential nature of sabbath in a life of ministry
The relationship of wisdom to shepherding
The importance of overcoming guilt as a motivator for decisions in ministry

There’s also an important undercurrent throughout the episode about putting our servanthood into action first, knowing that only then will a servant’s heart follow.

Links from this episode:

YouVersion Bible App

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Ep 042: Making Space for Ministry and Life In an Increasingly Cluttered World, with Daniel Sih

Thu, 23 Feb 2023 08:01:00 -0700

In this conversation, Karl Vaters talks to Daniel Sih about the information in his recent book, Spacemaker: How to Unplug, Unwind and Think Clearly in the Digital Age.

Specifically, we address three areas that are having a massive effect on our lives and ministries:

Clutter
Neuroplasticity
The stories we tell

In our increasingly tech-driven world, the technology that used to be (and still can be) so helpful is now causing significant changes to the way we work, worship, live, communicate and even the way our brains are wired. And many of these changes are not good.

But the news is not all bad. Daniel offers great Bible-based insights into how we can acknowledge these challenges, offer a far better alternative, and minister in ways that answer people’s deepest needs.

But first, we need to get and stay healthy, ourselves. Stop living by the world’s stories, and find ourselves immersed in the bigger, better story God is telling.

Links:

Movements.net

Spacemakers

Raising Humans

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Ep 041: Ministry as a Solo Pastor, with Gary L. McIntosh

Thu, 09 Feb 2023 08:01:00 -0700

An interview with Gary L. McIntosh about the principles in his new book, The Solo Pastor: Understanding and Overcoming the Challenges of Leading a Church Alone.

In this episode, Karl Vaters talks with Dr. McIntosh about:

The relentlessness of being a solo pastor
How influence works in the solo-pastor church
What expectations people have of the solo pastor
Our connectedness to the congregation
The great hopefulness of solo-pastoring

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Ep 040: How Excellence Looks Different In Small Churches, with Erik Reed

Thu, 26 Jan 2023 08:01:00 -0700

Karl Vaters interviews Erik Reed, a pastor in Nashville TN. This conversation is, surprisingly, based on a Twitter thread Erik wrote about how excellence in smaller churches looks different than it does in bigger churches.

Karl and Erik talk about

The dangers of small churches trying to imitate larger churches
The attractiveness of authenticity
The importance of investing our time and resources wisely
Examples of what small-church excellence actually looks like

Instead of pushing for the technical “wow” factor, we need to remember that people who come to a smaller church are looking for us to do the small, relational things well, so that’s where we need to put our energy.

Erik Reed on Twitter: @ErikReed

Read Erik Reed’s Twitter Thread on Small Church Excellence

Read it here if you’re not on Twitter

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Ep 039: Polycentric Leadership: Church as a Discipleship Movement, with Dan White Jr.

Thu, 12 Jan 2023 08:01:00 -0700

Karl Vaters interviews Dan White Jr.. the coauthor (with JR Woodward) of The Church as Movement: Starting and Sustaining Missional-Incarnational Communities.

They talk about why we need a complete rethinking of how we do church, from the current, popular ways of seeing it as an institution or a series of programs, to seeing it as the movement Jesus intended it to be.

Specifically, Dan builds the case for a new type of leadership he calls Polycentric Leadership.

To get there, Dan and Karl discuss the primary elements of:

The Church as Movement
The importance of church structure
The four stages of learning
Rethinking leadership and mutual submission

These seismic shifts can feel overwhelming at first, but if we really hear what the New Testament tells us about discipleship, it can become second nature to us.

Links From This Episode:

The KINEO Center Website: https://www.thekineocenter.com/
Dan's Website: http://danwhitejr.com/home
Dan's Books: http://danwhitejr.com/books
Twitter Handle: @DanWhiteJr.

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Introducing The Church Lobby Podcast! (A Bonus Episode)

Mon, 02 Jan 2023 08:01:00 -0700

Welcome to the first episode of The Church Lobby: Conversations on Faith & Ministry.

In this episode, Karl talks about some of the big news coming from this ministry over the coming months, including four big reasons for the name change:

Why The Church Lobby?

1) The church lobby is where the church meets and does ministry

2) It shifts the emphasis of our pastoral conversations from the stage to the floor

3) It’s a good place to take the temperature of a church’s health

4) The name is simple and descriptive (and, honestly, it was available)

The church lobby is where conversations about faith and ministry happen, both as a congregation, and pastor-to-pastor. And in The Church Lobby podcast, that’s what we want to continue to do.

Article link: KarlVaters.com/Introducing-Church-Lobby

Our Final CTWIASC Podcast! And What’s Next (Special Bonus Episode)

Mon, 19 Dec 2022 08:01:00 -0700

Yes, you read that title right. This is the last episode of “Can This Work in a Small Church?”

No, we aren’t stopping the podcast. We’re changing the name.

In this special bonus episode, Karl has no guests. Instead, he talks about the following:

The three big reasons we’re changing the name
What the new direction will look like
What the new name of the podcast will be

If you’d like to see the new name and logo so you’ll recognize it when it appears on your device, here’s a link to the episode article.

KarlVaters.com/Final-CTWIASC

Ep 038: A Discipleship Strategy Small Churches Can Actually Follow, with Darrell Stetler

Mon, 05 Dec 2022 21:20:00 -0700

Karl Vaters interviews Darrell Stetler, a small-church pastor, father of seven, and creator of NewStart discipleship curriculum, written with the needs and strengths of small churches in mind.

In this conversation, Darrell and Karl talk about the importance of discipleship in the life of the church – and as a central role in our calling as pastors.

Some key topics include:

The importance of helping people create discipleship habits, not just filling their heads with information
Making sure to see discipleship as a whole, not broken into individualized pieces
The essential role that mentoring plays in discipleship – especially in the early days of someone’s walk with Christ

Plus, Darrell’s way of describing new believers as infants in Christ provides a fresh insight that is especially fresh and helpful from a pastoral perspective.

Links From This Episode:

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Ep 037: Seculosity: Ministry In The Era Of Secular Religion, with David Zahl

Mon, 14 Nov 2022 08:01:00 -0700

Karl Vaters interviews David Zahl, author of Seculosity: How Career, Parenting, Technology, Food, Politics, and Romance Became Our New Religion and What to Do about It.

In this episode, Karl and David have a wide-ranging conversation about how the religious landscape has changed in our culture, but not in the ways you may have thought. According to David, we haven’t become less religious, but the objects of our worship and the rituals and rules around that worship have changed from vertical to horizontal.

If you are a church leader, this episode will help you get a handle on some of the confusing shifts in attitude and behavior that may be frustrating you as you attempt to lead a congregation.

In this episode, we narrow in on the subjects of:

• Busyness

• Parenting

• Politics

• Jesusland

and how each of them may be playing themselves out in disruptive but subconscious ways in our lives and congregations.

Mockingbird

The Mockingcast

Low Anthropology: The Unlikely Key to a Gracious View of Others (and Yourself)

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Ep 036: Why Proximity and Longevity Matter in Pastoral Ministry, with Alan Briggs

Thu, 20 Oct 2022 17:12:00 -0700

Karl Vaters interviews Alan Briggs, a pastor, the author of Staying is the New Going, the host of the Right Side Up Leadership podcast and StayForth.com. Karl and Alan talk about why geography matters in church leadership. Especially in an increasingly-mobile and increasingly-electronic world, staying planted where God put you is more important than ever for effective, incarnational ministry.

Staying in a church long-term may have its challenges, but they are far outweighed by their advantages – for the church, the pastors, the pastor’s family, and the community they’re called to serve.

Some important topics we cover include:

• Why are American pastors especially transient, and what problems does this cause?

• What does it mean to choose to be a local even if you aren’t a native?

• The importance of “faithful presence”

• Why sabbaticals matter, and why doing them with a plan is essential

Staying is the New Going

Stayforth.com

Right-Side Up Leadership Podcast

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Ep 035: Should You Start a Podcast? And Positive Ministry Trends, with Aron Utecht

Mon, 03 Oct 2022 07:01:00 -0700

Karl Vaters interviews Aron Utecht, a pastor and the host of the Good Ideas for Churches podcast. Karl and Aron talk about some of the positive trends he’s been seeing in the church and among pastors, including a refocusing on mission rather than an obsession with methods.

They also talk about the value of podcasting for pastors and churches, including what question we must answer before we’re ready to ask “should I start a podcast?”

Hint: sometimes the answer is “no”. In a lot of situations the best use of our limited time and energy may be to invest ourselves even deeper into the church and the surrounding community with low-tech, hands-on touches.

So Aron encourages us not to get enamored with the tools and toys. Know what God has called you to do, then do it in the best way you know. If that’s a high-tech answer, fine. But if it’s old-school pastoring, which it will be for most of us, stay faithful in that.

Links from This Episode

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Ep 034: Technology, Ministry, and Keeping People's Attention, with Rick Hiemstra

Mon, 19 Sep 2022 07:01:00 -0700

Karl Vaters interviews Rick Hiemstra, a former small church pastor, now serving as the Director of Research at the Evangelical Fellowship of Canada.

Rick and Karl talk about a wide variety of subjects, including the Church Growth Movement, technology and how it has affected the way we approach pastoring.

Some helpful insights include:

What has people’s attention is what shapes them, and technology has radically altered what has our attention
How technology has shaped people’s expectation of what to expect from their church and their pastor
How technology subconsciously changed pastors from shepherds to content producers
The important difference between “growth” and “scale”
How small churches are especially suited to meet the changing needs of a world whose attention is so easily diverted

And much more.

Links from this episode:

Rick.Hiemstra@theefc.ca

evangelicalfellowship.ca

Andy Crouch - The Tech-Wise Family

Justin Earley - The Common Rule

The HTML of Cruciform Love: Toward a Theology of the Internet

Online Conversation | After Babel: Reclaiming Relationship in a Technological World with Andy Crouch & Jonathan Haidt

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Ep 033: Leveraging the Strengths of Your Small Church, with Ron Klassen

Mon, 05 Sep 2022 07:01:00 -0700

Karl Vaters interviews Ron Klassen of the Rural Home Missionary Association (RHMA) about seeing the unique nature of the small church, not as a problem to be solved, but as a strength to leverage, and even to exploit. Here are a few highlights:

Small churches have unique ministry gifts that shouldn’t be seen as problems to fix, but as positives to exploit.
The relational aspect of small churches is something we need to lean into, not shy away from. It will even make you come across as a better preacher!
A lot of small church ministry happens off-book and outside of organized programs. Exploit that.
Don’t take intergenerational relationships for granted. And don’t push back against them. Exploit the value of them by being intentional about them.

If you know a small town or rural church leader who could use this encouragement and these ideas, pass this episode along to them. And pick up Ron’s book, Maximize! Leveraging the Strengths of Your Small Church.

Links:

Maximize!: Leveraging the Strengths of Your Small Church

Rural Matters Institute

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Ep 032: Teaching the Bible In Your Context, with Matt Whitman

Mon, 15 Aug 2022 07:01:00 -0700

Karl Vaters interviews Matt Whitman, host of the Ten Minute Bible Hour podcast and YouTube channel.

Karl and Matt talk about the intersection of Bible teaching/preaching and pastoral care. This conversation also covers

The importance of our online presence
How to avoid the temptation of living by clicks
Taking care not to get stuck wandering down political and theological rabbit trails
Why teaching about the Bible is as important as teaching from the Bible

Links:

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Ep 031: How To Find The Right Pastor/Church Fit, with Matt Steen

Mon, 08 Aug 2022 07:01:00 -0700

Karl Vaters interviews Matt Steen, a former pastor and church planter, now with Chemistry Staffing, a ministry that helps churches find great staff members (and helps staff members find great churches).

The episode is filled with practical advice, including

What’s changed in pastoral transition/placement over the last generation
How the pandemic has accelerated pastoral transitions
The five key principles to look for when looking for a new pastor or church

Of special help will be how Matt describes the difference between “close-fisted” and “open-handed” theological issues, as well as the importance of giving churches time to get used to a pastoral departure, and to get ready for a new pastor.

These principles are especially important in a small church context because the unique characteristics of the church need to be identified and accounted for in a pastoral search. And if they are, the so-called pastoral revolving door may just slow down for a lot of churches and pastors.

Links:

Chemistrystaffing.com
Before You Go, by Wade Hodges
When to Leave, by Wade Hodges
The Pastor: A Memoir, by Eugene H. Peterson

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Ep 030: How Fixing the World Is Killing the Church, with Dr John C. Nugent

Mon, 25 Jul 2022 07:01:00 -0700

Karl Vaters interviews John C. Nugent about this subject, which is at the root of some of the biggest challenges pastors are facing today.

Dr. Nugent is the author of several books including Endangered Gospel: How Fixing the World Is Killing the Church. He is a professor of Old Testament studies at Great Lakes Christian College, and co-host of the After Class Podcast.

John’s approach helps us understand where common misunderstandings about these issues come from so we can address them lovingly and biblically. He also frames these issues according to the entire story-arc of scripture, rather than just proof-texting.

This is a great way to see the church for what Jesus called us to be. Not isolated from the world, but as a representation of the Kingdom of God within the world.

Links:

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Ep 029: When “Can’t Miss” Church Growth Answers Don't Work, with Cory Hartman

Mon, 11 Jul 2022 07:01:00 -0700

Karl Vaters interviews Cory Hartman, co-author of Future Church: Seven Laws of Real Church Growth about what happened when church growth answers didn't work for him or the church he served.

His background and experiences will sound familiar to most small church leaders. And this conversation will be very encouraging.

In this conversation, Cory and Karl talk about

How Cory, a “failed” small church pastor became the co-author of a book about church growth (including an update of what "failure" really means)
The essential distinction between what he calls Upper Room and Lower Room churches
The four “can’t miss” answers for church growth, and how they did miss for him
How he redefines some important terms like “church growth”, “success”, "discipleship” and “conversion” in more biblical ways

And more.

Links:

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Ep 028: Ending Human Trafficking, with Dr. Sandra Morgan

Mon, 20 Jun 2022 07:01:00 -0700

Karl Vaters interviews Dr. Sandie Morgan, co-author of the new book, Ending Human Trafficking.

In this episode we talk about how healthy churches are uniquely positioned to help prevent human trafficking, including:

What signs to look for in people who may be vulnerable
How to partner with other agencies and law enforcement
How to set proper policies
Why we need to pay more attention to labor trafficking, not just sex trafficking
How to find resources in our neighborhood

And so much more, including a take on the biblical story of Elisha and the widow (2 Kings 4) that any pastor can preach from to help your congregation understand the importance of this issue and how to prevent it.

Dr. Morgan is also the host of the Ending Human Trafficking podcast, and the director of the Global Center for Women and Justice at Vanguard University. She also served by presidential appointment on the Public-Private Partnership Advisory Council to End Human Trafficking.

Links from this episode:

Ending Human Trafficking

Sweat and Toil app

endinghumantrafficking.org

gcwj.org

Sandie Morgan social media: Twitter, Facebook, Instagram

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Ep 027: The Unexpected Origins of the Church Growth Movement, with Dr. Gary McIntosh

Mon, 06 Jun 2022 07:01:00 -0700

Karl Vaters interviews Dr. Gary McIntosh about Donald McGavran's role as the pioneer of the church growth movement.

But don’t let the term "church growth movement" stop you from listening. Dr. McIntosh tells us that the origins of church growth are far different than what most of us have been taught recently.

Some of the misunderstandings he clears up include:

That it came from the heart of a missionary, not a pastor
That it was about being cross-cultural, not omni-cultural
That it was focused as much or more on the impact of smaller congregations than the building of bigger ones

Donald A. McGavran: A Biography of the Twentieth Centurys Premier Missiologist

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Ep 026: Destigmatizing the "M" Word (Marketing) with Austin Savage

Mon, 09 May 2022 07:01:00 -0700

An interview with Austin Savage about the role of marketing in church leadership, including what marketing is, what it isn’t, and why we need to destigmatize it to use it effectively.

You may know Austin from the work he did with 95Network.com, including several years co-hosting the 95Podcast with Dale Sellers. Recently, he established Austin Savage & Co. to help churches with creating content and using media in the church.

In this conversation, Karl and Austin talk about

The difference between Marketing and promotion/advertising
How to put the content your church is already creating into the marketplace in creative ways
How to get started without costing any money

Links

Asana

95network.org

Austinsavage.co

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Ep 025: Why Your Church Needs A Website And Social Media, with Josh Givens

Wed, 13 Apr 2022 07:01:00 -0700

So, your church has a Facebook page? In a small church, that should be enough of an online presence, right? Wrong.

It finally happened! The answer to the question, "Can This Work In A Small Church?" isn't "yes"! (Well, not entirely, anyway.) Find out why in this interview with Josh Givens.

Topics include:

The importance of getting online
Why we must stay connected to the people we meet there
Why we must invest money and time to own online real estate (a website)
The importance of the pastor’s personal online presence
How much your church communicates before people step inside the building

Josh is the Communications Director for Northside Bible Church in Mobile AL, and for 614Ministries.org.

Links

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Ep 024: Rural Church Rescue, with Jon Sanders

Wed, 09 Mar 2022 08:01:00 -0700

An interview with Jon Sanders, the founder of SmallTownBigChurch.com, co-host of the EntrePastors podcast and author of Rural Church RESCUE: A Call to Restore Healthy Churches to Rural North America.

Jon and Karl talk about how Jon used the principles he learned as a firefighter to help churches better understand how to do ministry that matters. The parallels between the roles of firefighter and pastors are vivid, and the lessons are clear.

Subjects include the need for a clear mission and vision, the need to adapt, and the necessity of training and working as a team.

Links:

Rural Church RESCUE: A Call to Restore Healthy Churches to Rural North America

Calendly

Smalltownbigchurch.com

EntrePastors podcast

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Ep 023: A Christian's Guide To The Gender Revolution, with Dr. Vince Gil

Wed, 26 Jan 2022 08:01:00 -0700

Karl Vaters interviews Dr. Vincent E. Gil, the author of A Christian's Guide Through the Gender Revolution: Gender, Cisgender, Transgender, and Intersex (Cascade Publishing, 2021.) .

Dr. Gil taught human sexuality and counseled at a conservative Christian college for 38 years. He has been a consultant on sexual issues for church leaders and denominations, and is himself a licensed minister.

This is a sensitive subject that often causes division, or gets ignored due to some of the complexity and concerns. In this conversation, Karl and Dr. Gil talk about how to understand the current “gender moment,” and negotiate a better way than taking sides on issues.

Karl and Dr. Gil address issues of concern to pastors, and provide a dialogue on how to approach varied sex/gender concerns in congregants and beyond.

(Our apologies for a technical issue. In the front half of the podcast there are several times when you can hear a thumping in the background while Dr. Gil is talking. We have done our best to limit it, but we were not able to remove it.)

Links:

Dr. Gil’s Webpage: drvincegil.com.

Dr. Gil’s recent book: A Christian's Guide through the Gender Revolution: Gender, Cisgender, Transgender, and Intersex (2021). Available in Hardcover, paperback and Kindle editions at Amazon.

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 022: Helping Men Become More Intentional Dads, with Jeff Hamilton

Wed, 12 Jan 2022 08:01:00 -0700

Karl Vaters and Jeff Hamilton (founder of Dad Academy) talk about the importance of helping men become the dad they want to be by becoming at least as intentional in their parenting as they are in their job.

Topics include:

Why “Dadding” is so important and so challenging
The importance of having an intentional plan
The impact of building a positive culture in your home by creating a more Christ-like value system

Links:

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Bonus: Introducing the Bible-Reading Coach Podcast

Wed, 22 Dec 2021 23:09:00 -0700

The Bible-Reading Coach is a guide to help anyone read through the entire Bible in 52 weeks.

It all starts with a weekly podcast, available in both audio and video formats, hosted by pastor and author Karl Vaters, it’s designed to help beginners and longtime Bible readers get more out of your journey through God’s Word by making your reading journey Simple, Understandable, and Rewarding.

SIMPLE: A weekly introduction to readings from Genesis to Revelation that helps you know what to look for as you read.
UNDERSTANDABLE: Helps you see how this ancient wisdom applies to the way we live, think, and believe today.
REWARDING: We want to help you read all the way from Genesis to Revelation by showing you what to look for and how to apply it to your everyday life.

Are you a follower of Jesus who’s tried and failed to read through the Bible before? Follow our plan. This time, you’ll finish.

Are you new to the Bible and the Christian faith? We welcome you! This can be a helpful first step to 1) understand what the Bible says, 2) discover why this collection of ancient texts is essential to the life and faith of billions of people, and 3) inspire you to dig even deeper.

See what's coming in the weeks ahead on the Bible outline.

Transcripts will be available in advance of each episode.

Support this work. Help us keep our content free for those who need it the most.

Find more resources for small church ministry at KarlVaters.com.

Ep 021: Church Planting For Everyone, with Peyton Jones

Wed, 15 Dec 2021 08:01:00 -0700

Karl Vaters interviews Peyton Jones, a church planter and church planting specialist. He’s written several books, most recently, Church Plantology: The Art and Science of Planting Churches, which is the basis for this conversation.

Peyton and Karl talk about a lot of issues regarding church planting, but mostly about how most of our common perceptions of church planting are built on a faulty foundation. Not a church planter? Don’t let that stop you from listening. There’s a lot in this for every church leader.

Links from this episode:

Church Plantology: The Art and Science of Planting Churches

Reaching the Unreached: Becoming Raiders of the Lost Art

Through the Word

Ministry Ninja

Newbreed Training

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Ep 020: Online and In-Person Worship, with Jason Moore

Wed, 01 Dec 2021 08:01:00 -0700

An interview with Jason Moore about how to blend online & in-person worship.

Jason is the founder of the Both/And seminars which helps churches of all sizes create a better worship experience for both the online audience and the in-person congregation.

In this conversation, Karl Vaters talks to Jason about how a church of any size can use online and in-person church to make each a better experience for worshipers. If you’re having a hard time with your online experience, or even if you’re doubtful about its value listen to Jason’s heart, his experience and his ideas, including…

How online worship has gone from being expensive and rare to a common and essential aspect of church ministry – leaving many of us to play catch-up.
How to ensure that the online church experience doesn’t to detract from in-person worship, but can add to it.
The need to readjust the goal of church from getting people in the room to getting the message out.
The fact that the main roadblock to a high-quality online/in-person experience isn’t money, it’s intentionality.

Links from the episode:

Midnightoilproductions.com

facebook.com/midnightoilproductions

instagram.com/midnightoilprod/

mail@midnightoilproductions.com

Open Broadcast Software

Unsplash

Techsoup.org

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Ep 019: Current Issues in Church Law & Tax, with Matt Branaugh

Wed, 17 Nov 2021 08:01:00 -0700

Karl Vaters interviews Matt Branaugh about the important subjects of law, tax and finances in the church. Matt is an Attorney at Law and Content Editor for Church Law & Tax.

In this conversation, Karl and Matt talk about some of the biggest recent issues in these important areas – you know, the things we hate to deal with, but need to take care of. Thankfully, Matt knows how to talk about them in compelling, clear and applicable ways.

This conversation will help you know that you and your church are not alone if you’re facing these issues, where you can go to get help, and how to be proactive instead of waiting for something bad to happen.

Links:

CLT

Matt Branaugh at Church Law & Tax

ChurchLawandTax.com

Church Law and Tax Store

Richard R. Hammar at Church Law & Tax

Articles

The Top 5 Reasons Churches and Religious Organizations End Up in Court

Minimizing the Risks of Child Molestation in Churches

Your Church Needs an Insurance Committee

Seventh Circuit: Clergy Housing Allowance Is Constitutional

Housing Allowance Basics

How to Safely Reopen Your Church and Reduce Legal Liability

Lightning Round

Workflowy.com

ChristianLegalSociety.org

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Ep 018: The Small Church In God's Mission, with Bob Roberts Jr.

Wed, 03 Nov 2021 07:01:00 -0700

Karl Vaters interviews Bob Roberts Jr., a pastor, author, global strategist and more. Bob has a heart for Jesus, for the Gospel, for all kinds of people, and for the role of the small congregation in fulfilling God’s mission.

Karl and Bob have a free-wheeling conversation that touches on many subjects, all of which can help every church and every church leader.

Links from this episode:

My Promised Land by Ari Shavit

Art and Faith: A Theology of Making by Makoto Fujimura

Glocal.net

Multifaithneighborsnetwork.org

Twitter & Instagram: @bobrobertsjr

BobRobertsjr.com

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Ep 017: Pastoral Transition with Gary Garcia

Wed, 20 Oct 2021 07:01:00 -0700

My podcast guest this week is Gary Garcia — again.

This time we talk about Pastoral Transition from a unique perspective. I was Gary’s lead pastor for 25 years, then Gary became the lead pastor, while I stayed on the pastoral staff with him.

In this episode Gary and I talk about

Why that happened
How we did it
How it’s been going since

Some key points about making a successful pastoral transition will include:

We need to know God is calling us to do it, even if it’s outside our comfort zone.
We must spend the necessary time to talk, think and pray about it. It’s better to do it well than do it fast.
Each needs to support the other. The former lead pastor must truly let go of control, and the new pastor needs to honor the past without being intimidated by it.

Links from this Episode:

DownloadYouthMinistries.com

Find Gary on Instagram

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Ep 016: Pastoral Longevity and Ministry Partnership, with Gary Garcia

Wed, 13 Oct 2021 07:01:00 -0700

Karl Vaters and Gary Garcia have worked together at the same church for 29 years. For the first 25 years Karl was the lead pastor. For the last 4 years Gary has been the lead pastor.

This is the first of two episodes with them. In the next one they will talk about everything surrounding the pastoral transition, but in this episode they talk about

How to stay in ministry long-term
How to stay fresh while in the same church
How to work together well
Advice for those wanting to stay strong in ministry for the long haul

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Ep 015: Interim Pastors, with Tom Harris

Wed, 06 Oct 2021 07:01:00 -0700

Karl Vaters interviews Tom Harris about the important, but underserved topic of Intentional Interim Pastorates. Tom is the co-author of Soaring Between Pastors: 8 Actions to Thrive During a Pastoral Transition. He also serves as the president of IPM: Interim Pastor Ministries.

In this conversation, Tom and Karl talk about the importance of interim pastorates, including how an intentional interim can help prepare a church to hit the ground running when they call a new pastor.

Links from this episode:

InterimPastors.com

Soaring Between Pastors

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Ep 014: Long Term Pastorates, with Rich Brown

Wed, 29 Sep 2021 07:01:00 -0700

Karl Vaters interviews Rich Brown on the importance of long-term pastorates.

Rich is the author of Extended Stays: A Closer Look at Longer Pastorates. He has served for decades as a pastor and in Christian higher education. Currently he serves with IPM (Interim Pastor Ministries).

In this conversation, Karl and Rich talk about why long-term pastorates are good for the church, the pastor, the pastor’s family, and for the community we're called to reach.

Including:

Some shocking stats about pastoral tenure
Why a series of short-term stays can be problematic
How to make a long-term stay effective for everyone
How to grow deeper through transition without relocation

and more.

From the Episode:

Rich@interimpastors.com

Extended Stays by Rich Brown

InterimPastorMinistries.com

The Forgotten Church by Glenn Daman

Turnaround Strategies For the Small Church by Ron Crandell

Transforming Church in Rural America by Shannon O’Dell

Growing Young - Fuller Seminary

Church Revitalization in Rural America by Tom Cheyney

Small Church Checkup by Kay Kotan & Phil Schroeder

Leading the Smaller Church by Glenn C. Daman

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Ep 013: Small Churches In Denominational Leadership, with Matt Henslee

Wed, 15 Sep 2021 07:00:00 -0700

Karl Vaters interviews Matt Henslee about the importance of having small church representation in denominational leadership.

In addition to being a small church pastor and authoring/co-authoring several books, Matt has recently been appointed to leadership in his denomination (the Southern Baptist Conference) on both a regional and national level.

Karl and Matt talk about how this came happened and how important it is for all church groups, including denominations, to make a place for small church pastors in leadership.

Links from this Episode:

Jonah Over Coffee

Replanting Rural Churches

PreachingSource.com

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Ep 012: Small Church Pastor Personality Types, with Jean Morgan

Wed, 01 Sep 2021 07:00:00 -0700

Karl interviews Jean Morgan, a small church pastor who wrote a Master’s thesis about the correlation between a pastor’s personality and the size of the church they serve.

In this conversation, Jean and Karl talk about

The way Jean made this assessment
The initial results
The possible impact of his results for us as small church pastors

What we discover is that our effectiveness in small church ministry is less about our personality type and far more about

1. Our feelings of effectiveness

2. Listening closely to our calling, not to the outside voices that tell us we need to hit certain numbers

3. How God can use any personality type to accomplish his will for his church

Jean's Masters Thesis can be found here https://karlvaters.com/small-church-pastor-personality-types/

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Ep 011: Trauma, Brain Science, and Ministry, with Lori Andrews, Ed.D.

Wed, 18 Aug 2021 07:00:00 -0700

Karl talks with Lori Andrews about trauma, its effect on the brain, and how to use this information as we lead through challenging times.

Topics include:

How can we help people cope with the constant flow of low-to-moderate-level trauma?
The value of consistency in worship services.
How to help kids prepare for children’s services.
The neurobiological benefits of corporate worship.

Lori has a doctorate in Education, specializing in chronic trauma and broken family systems, with training in neurobiology. She works with at-risk youth, and she has spent many years in small-church ministry.

Links from this episode:

Freshhope.us

mentalhealthgracealliance.org

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Ep 010: Writing For Ministry, with Drew Dyck

Wed, 04 Aug 2021 07:00:00 -0700

Karl interviews Drew Dyck about Writing for Ministry, including

The differences between preaching and writing
How to get started writing for ministry publications
What book publishers are looking for (including from small church pastors)

Drew has spent decades as a writer and editor for major church publishers, and is the author of several books, most recently "Your Future Self Will Thank You: Secrets to Self-Control from the Bible and Brain Science (A Guide for Sinners, Quitters, and Procrastinators)."

Links from this episode:

“Your Future Self Will Thank You: Secrets to Self-Control From The Bible And Brain Science” https://www.drewdyck.com/your-future-self-will-thank-you

Twitter Handle @drewdyck

drewdyck.com

“Bird by Bird” by Anne Lamott

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Ep 009: First Impressions, with Greg Atkinson

Wed, 28 Jul 2021 19:00:00 -0700

Greg Atkinson is one the world’s leading voices in First Impressions for churches. He also wrote "Secrets of a Secret Shopper: Reaching and Keeping Church Guests" as a guide for small churches.

In this conversation, Karl Vaters interviews Greg about

Online presence
How everyone in a small church is on the First Impressions "team”
Why small churches may need to work harder on First Impressions than our big church friends
A few tips for small churches to increase their first impression with little or no money

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Ep 008: Recovering & Thriving In the Post-Pandemic Church pt. 2

Wed, 21 Jul 2021 07:00:00 -0700

There’s a lot of talk lately about what it will take to recover from what we've all been through over the past two years. And understandably so. It will take years for us to get a grip on what has happened, what’s still happening and how it’s still changing everything.

In this two-part series, Karl Vaters shares several lessons about responding, recovering and thriving through a challenging season. This information comes from hundreds of conversations he’s had with small church pastors, denominational leaders and others over the last 18+ months.

In this episode (Part 2), Karl covers the four essential principles that have made the differences between

1) churches that struggled the most during the pandemic, and will continue to struggle in the future, and

2) churches that have stayed healthy, become stronger and are likely to thrive into the future.

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Ep 007: Recovering & Thriving In the Post-Pandemic Church (Pt. 1)

Wed, 14 Jul 2021 19:00:00 -0700

In this episode (Part 1), Karl covers:

The two dangerous extremes people have found themselves in – and the way path to health again
The two keys for churches to recover and thrive in the coming years
The three most important principles for small churches moving forward

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Ep 006: Video Ministry Using Devices You Already Own, with Craig Forrest

Wed, 07 Jul 2021 07:00:00 -0700

An interview with Craig Forrest, who’s spent decades shooting and editing film and video for ministries and network TV.

Craig is passionate about helping people communicate the message of Jesus in a compelling way. In this interview, Karl Vaters talks with him about video ideas and tips that can be used in any size of church on a limited/nonexistent budget.

CraigForrest.com (https://www.craigforrest.com/)

MatchstickMedia.org (https://www.matchstickmedia.org/)

Six Ways to Sunday podcast (https://soundcloud.com/craig-d-forrest-813372280)

For a Transcript of this episode visit the Pivot Blog

Support This Work:

Visit the Website (https://karlvaters.com/)

Subscribe to weekly Newsletter (https://karlvaters.com/subscribe/)

Contribute financially through Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/karlvaters)

Visit our Youtube Channel (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrcGS0_tkxklJyB7wn9-aZA)

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Ep. 005: Small Church Conferences

Wed, 30 Jun 2021 07:00:00 -0700

Recorded in an RV at the Big Little Church conference in Camas WA, Karl talks with four people who host conferences for small church leaders. The conversation covers:

Why they started their small church conferences

What big church conferences can do to include the needs and voices of small church leaders

First steps if you want to host a small church conference

Guests:

Carl & Kalani Culley of BigLittleChurch.com

Dale Sellers of 95Network.org

Chris Vitarelli of SmallChurchBigDeal.com

Links from Episode:

Big Little Church Conference (http://www.biglittlechurch.com/)

Small Church, Big Deal (http://smallchurchbigdeal.com/)

95Network (https://www.95network.org/)

First 5 app - Devotional tool (https://first5.org/)

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Ep 004: Decision Fatigue, with Ira Antoine

Wed, 23 Jun 2021 07:00:00 -0700

In my conversation with Ira Antoine we talk about Decision Fatigue. You know, that exhaustion you feel when there are just ... too ... many ... decisions to be made and no one else to make them!

Ira has pastored of Minnehulla Baptist Church in Goliad, Texas for 14 years and he is also the Director of Texas Baptists Bivocational Pastors Ministry.

Ira offers a lot of practical help for an issue that every leader will face during seasons of challenge including “What is decision fatigue? Why are we facing it? And what can we do about it?”

Links From Episode:

Streamyard.com (https://streamyard.com)

Texas Baptists Convention (https://texasbaptists.org/)

Personal e-mail: ira.antoine@texasbaptists.org

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Ep. 003: Can a Pastor Change the Culture of a Small Church?

Wed, 16 Jun 2021 07:00:00 -0700

A church’s culture is defined as “the unwritten set of rules that governs everything a church does.” In a big church, the pastor and staff set the culture, but in a small church the culture is set by the long-time regular members and attenders - even if they don't know they’re doing it.

In this episode, Karl Vaters walks through the three steps that a small church pastor must use to lead the culture.

Show them you understand the culture
Show them what you appreciate about the culture
Then you will get limited permission to participate with them to lead and shape the culture

Karl also walks through the key types of church cultures and how to address each one.

Links from Episode:

Dirt Matters by Jim Powell

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Ep 002: Making a Positive Impact on Social Media, w/ Doug Bursch

Mon, 07 Jun 2021 07:05:00 -0700

Karl Vaters interviews Doug Bursch about his new book, Posting Peace. It's all about how social media is impacting us so much that it even changes how we see ourselves and relate to each other.

But Doug also offers hope for how we can be peacemakers and reconcilers in our online behavior.

As the first interview of this podcast, Karl introduces the Lightning Round questions, with questions and answers that are both profound and a little bit of fun.

Buy Posting Peace (https://www.ivpress.com/posting-peace)

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Ep 001: Can A Small Church Be An Effective Church?

Mon, 07 Jun 2021 07:00:00 -0700

Yes, small churches can be strong, healthy and effective. In this opening episode, Karl Vaters looks at the three main issues that must be in place in order for that to happen.

1. Realize you can be effective

2. Discover how small churches function differently from big churches

3. Understand and use the unique DNA of your small church for God’s glory

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

EP 000: Introducing Can This Work in a Small Church

Fri, 21 May 2021 07:00:00 -0700

Why would someone create a podcast called "Can This Work In A Small Church?" Because small churches are different.

A lot of what we learn from our big church friends needs to be tweaked for the small church environment. And sometimes they need to be done completely differently.

In this episode, Karl Vaters introduces you to what this podcast is about, and what's coming up.

To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

The Church Lobby

Ep 125: How People of Faith Can Help Solve the Mental Health Crisis, with Shaunti Feldhahn & James N. Sells

Ep 124: The Art and Science of Making Disciples, with Peyton Jones

Links:

Bonus Content Summary

Ep 123: Six Things I’d Do Differently If I Was a Young Pastor Today, with Darryl Dash

Links:

Ep 122: Philip Yancey, Shattered Trust, and Rebuilding Your Integrity, with Kurt Bubna

Ep 121: Six Big Shifts In How People Volunteer—And How To Respond, with Laurie Graham

Bonus Content Summary

Ep 120: Experiencing Scripture Like Dallas Willard, with Dave Ripper

Ep 119: Pushing Back Against The Lie Of Fast Church Growth, with Jeff Hoglen

Ep 118: Why the Body of Christ Still Matters, with Brad Edwards

Ep 117: The Growing Problem of Gambling Addiction in the Church, with Dr. Donald Lichi

Ep 116: How Your Church Can Help People Recover from Grief, with Jeff Forrey

Ep 115: Church, Parachurch, and Missio Dei, with Dr. Angie Ward

Ep 114: The Art of Writing and Living a Sermon, with Austin Carty

Ep 113: What I Found on the Other Side of Church Growth, with Paul Dazet

Ep 112: Making Room for Loss and Grief In Life and Ministry, with Leanne Friesen

Ep 111: Using AI To Find Great Sermon Illustrations, with Darrell Stetler

Ep 110: Healthy Goal-setting and Helping The Big Church Feel Small, with Luke Simmons

Ep 109: The Future is Bivocational, with Andrew Hamilton

Ep 108: Creating an Environment for Discipleship to Thrive and Multiply, with Bryan Sims

Ep 107: Optimizing Your Church Website for Three Key Types of Visitors, with Derek Maxson

Ep 106: Segregation, Affinity Spaces, and How the Gospel Defeats Racism, with Mika Edmondson

Ep 105: Recovering from Sexually Related Trauma, with Rachel Bren

Ep 104: What Is the Minimum for a Church to be Viable? with Sam Peters

Ep 103: Helping Small Churches Win Guests, with Desmond Barrett

Ep 102: Five Trends In Technology and the Church, with Brad Hill

Ep 101: Ministry Sustainability without Money Stress, with Eric Hoke

Bonus Content

Ep 100: The Pastor, the Bible, and Growing Up In a Pastor’s Home (with Albert Vaters)

Ep 099: Russ Taff, on Childhood Trauma, Church Hurt, Alcoholism, Fame, Redemption, and His New Album

Ep 098: Ten Things They Didn't Tell Me About Leadership, with Alberto Bello

EP 097: Getting Your Church on the Road to Greater Health, with Mike Rubino

Ep 096: Disability Inclusion In the Church, with Barb Stanley

Ep 95: The Clergy Sabbatical Toolkit, with Sean Nemecek

Bonus Content

Ep 94: Using Storytelling Techniques to Make Your Message Stick, with Payton Minzenmayer

Ep 93: Cultivating a Multiethnic Kingdom Culture, with Jamaal Williams and Timothy Paul Jones

Ep 92: How Christianity Became The Air We All Breathe, with Glen Scrivener

Ep 91: The Prophetic Voice of Deconstruction, with Scot McKnight

Bonus Content Summary

Ep 90: How Bible Reading Can Jumpstart Your Church’s Discipleship, with Matt Lucas

Bonus Content Summary

Ep 89: Vibrant Ministry After Retirement Age, with Lisa Northway

Ep 088: The Gift of Small: Embracing Your Church’s Vocation, with Allen T. Stanton

Bonus Content

Ep 087: Covocational Pastoring: What It Is, And Why You Should Consider It (with Jon Sanders)

Ep 086: Vibrant Ministry From A Traditional Building In A Difficult City, with Tim Walker

Ep 085: The Necessity of Being Offended by Jesus, with Chase Replogle

Bonus Content Summary

Ep 084: How To Do A Great Trunk-or-Treat At Your Church, with Darrell Stetler

Ep 083: ​Flyover Church: Jesus' Ministry in Rural Places, with Brad Roth

Ep 082: Pastoring Difficult People, with Craig T. Owens

Ep 081: Should Your Church Consider the Microchurch Model?, with Frank Wooden

Bonus Content Summary

Ep 080: Practical Ideas that Work In Small Churches, with Laurie Acker

Bonus Content

Ep 079: Church Collaboration and Killing Consumerism in a Post-Christian Context, with Dan Nichols

Ep 078: De-sizing the Church (pt 10): First Reactions from Church Leaders

Ep 077: De-Sizing The Church (pt 9): The Danger of Idolizing Outcomes, with Mike Rubino

Ep 076: De-Sizing the Church (pt 8): Are We Too Quick to Replatform Fallen Pastors? with Matt Steen

Ep 075: De-Sizing the Church (pt 7) How To Use Your God-given Platform Well, with Daniel Darling

Ep 074: De-Sizing the Church (pt 6): Reframing Ministry Success to Reach the Misfits and the Marginalized, with Dave Gibbons

Ep 073: De-Sizing the Church (pt 5): Forming a Goodness Culture In the Local Church, with Scot McKnight

Ep 072: De-Sizing the Church (pt 4): Unintended Consequences of the Church Growth Movement, with Bob Smietana

Ep 071: De-Sizing the Church (pt 3): What Eugene Peterson Is Still Teaching Us About Pastoral Ministry, with Winn Collier

Ep 070: De-Sizing the Church (pt 2): Why Christian Celebrity Culture Guarantees Moral Failure, with Katelyn Beaty

Ep 069: De-Sizing the Church (pt 1): How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next, with Karl Vaters

Ep 068: The Small Church Worship Advantage, with Teresa Stewart

Ep 067: Beyond Burnout: Growing a Healthy Soul, with Ian Borkent

Ep 066: Brain Science, Christian Connection, and Character Development, with Michel Hendricks

Ep 065: Helping Small Churches Thrive (A special message from Karl Vaters)

Ep 064: The Value of Pastoral Longevity (Gary Garcia interviews Karl Vaters)

Ep 063: Using A.I. Without Losing Your Soul: A Step-by-Step Guide, with Jason Moore

Ep 062: Maybe You Shouldn't Live-Stream Your Church Service, with Tim Fox

Ep 061: Why Reading Matters for Ministry, with Austin Carty

Ep 060: How Just Showing Up Can Change Everything, with Drew Dyck

Ep 059: How Churches Can Stop Burning Out Pastors, with Josh Taylor

Ep 083: Flyover Church: Jesus' Ministry in Rural Places, with Brad Roth