What kind of cases do you typically encounter?

Barry has been doing almost exclusively probate and trust work since 1993 so he’s had quite a bit of experience in that area. Since he’s in the middle of two major regions he gets a wide variety of cases but he often gets a lot of litigation cases but prefers to avoid the litigation if he can.

Practicing in Northern California has a very different feel than the cases in Orange County. Most of Barry’s clients find him through existing clients and other attorneys, but he’s getting a lot more from the internet than he expected would be the case.

The California court system is the biggest in the world, it’s actually bigger than the Federal system. Each county also tends to do things a little differently which can create some difficulties for the practitioners.

Are the fires in Sonoma County causing a lot of issues?

Definitely, Barry has had a number of clients that have lost all their documents along with their house to the fire. Because of the number of homes that have been lost and the number of people that want to rebuild, there is a massive labor shortage in the area and the cost per square foot is going up.

The scale of the destruction is creating really complicated issues but at the end of the day, these people are just trying to put their lives back together.

How do you approach new cases that come through your doors?

Barry’s approach has changed over the years. He usually looks for beneficiaries that are being taken advantage of, he’s been in that kind of situation before a number of times and wants to prevent it if he can.

Elder abuse and elder fraud are also pretty common in Barry’s practice. Oftentimes, the abuser ends up being a failure to launch sort of situation but when it happens, Barry is happy to fight the good fight. Barry relates a story where the daughter of a widow took over the finances after the spouse died and ended up squandering the money while bouncing mom from old age home to old age home.

The abuser is those situations often have a sense of entitlement that causes a number of problems that you wouldn’t see with a stranger. The parents have to recognize the fact that there is going to be an issue in order to not leave a mess for the more responsible child.

Links To Resources Mentioned

949 274 4760

adamsandrafferty.com

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What does your practice look like?

David’s practice is almost exclusively trust and estate litigation. He represents trustees and beneficiaries from all over the world.

No matter what planning people will do, people will die and leave messes behind. As long as there are people around, Rick and David will always be in business.

A lot of David’s cases come from other attorneys that refer him when the case becomes too litigious. The first introduction to the case where they put together the plan is the most exciting time. Discovery tends to be the most costly part of the case but you will need to do some discovery to reach a resolution.

When working in trust and estate law in California, you end up seeing the same people all the time since most cases are consolidated into the primary courthouse, which can end up being an asset.

Do you get any cases that last a long time?

Some cases can take up quite a bit of time, but David likes those cases. He prefers to be in the trenches finding a resolution for his clients.

When it comes to the opposition, it’s hard to tell if a poor performance on a case is due to the level of competence of the attorney or because of the client. Trust and estate law is a complex area, and working with a personal injury lawyer should probably not be your first choice. You need someone with experience is this particular area of law.

Do you get into messy property matters?

All the time. David has seen plenty of wacky deeds, forgeries, and everything you could think of when it comes to title. Land and property in California can be extremely complicated, especially when you go back in history.

You have to bring on other people, you can’t be an expert in everything. David has a handful of other attorneys he trusts that he can bounce ideas off of for tricky legal puzzles. Very few title inspectors are left, it’s a dwindling skill and talent that you can’t find very often anymore.

A title company should be in a position to take on some risk for a client in order to facilitate a case and get it to a resolution. Rick has cases with missing pieces all the time and that means there is risk involved, but you do have to pick and choose the kinds of people you want to get involved with. There are a lot of bad stories in probate court and sometimes you can never be quite ready for certain cases, but it’s always nice to see cases that turn out well for the families involved.

Do you work with a lot of people outside the US?

Usually, there is a lawyer that works with David’s international clients that can represent them and get them to sign documents. Language can be tricky so it’s important to work with someone who can help you communicate with the client. Even with language barriers, David usually manages to find a satisfactory resolution for his clients.

Links To Resources Mentioned

310-773-0377

davidashapirolaw.com

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What kind of work do you like to do?

Joe’s background of working at Disney gave him a taste for contract administration and project management. While he was working at Disney, he got a lot of questions about probate and estate planning. His wife eventually pointed him in the direction of focusing on the field.

Joe realized that he could protect people and their assets and grew to enjoy the work. He started off with a lot of referrals from a CPA firm that he worked with and this lead him to get into elder law where he could help people in very difficult situations.

There has been so much bad advice that has been given out about elder law. Joe deals with a lot of MediCal cases because a lot of people don’t realize what the requirements are. He gets quite a few cases that are in crisis mode by the time they come to him.

California is the only state that hasn’t adopted a deficit reduction act. This allows California to do a lot of other things that the other states can’t take advantage of. In many cases MediCaid falls short in ways that don’t apply in California.

Have you encountered any really difficult cases?

Joseph talks about a story where a woman who was on MediCal and had died and her family had to deal with a $250,000 MediCal claim on the home. During the conversation, the family may have been under the impression that he was willing to disable one of them with an axe.

He tells another story of a case where a woman who passed away was sold two promissory notes. The slippery part was that they were 30 year notes and the woman was 91 years old. Rick refers to this as an equity-ectimy, Joe calls it elder abuse. A lot of elders are preyed upon by bad people.

Burbank is turning out to be a great source for cold calls from people looking for estate planning and elder law. Joe also gets quite a few referrals from sources like Yelp and Google searches.

Any parting words for the listeners?

People should really be looking at the preventative stuff. There are a few documents that you should have which are power of attorney and advanced health care directive. You should try to avoid a conservatorship being taken out on you as much as you can. Do some pre-planning now and save your family a lot of grief later on.

Links To Resources Mentioned

818-241-4238

http://www.la-lawcenter.com/

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What kind of clients do you usually work with?

Jenny is a specialist in trust and estate planning as well as probate law. On the planning side, her work involves everything from the standard revocable living trust package to design and implementation of irrevocable trusts.

Her clients range from prominent landowners, to executives at technology companies, to small business owners.

Jenny focuses on advanced planning with her clients so that their families aren’t left in the mess that is so common to probate cases. Many of them are from Silicon Valley but there a lot of landowners in the area that are not necessarily involved in the tech sector. She occasionally gets clients from out of country when a local passes away.

Jenny relates a story of a 42 year old man that died in a freak accident at a work party and didn’t have a will or a trust set up.

Are most of your clients referrals?

95% of Jenny’s clients are referred from other attorneys and financial planners.

Do you get a lot of title issues?

Title issues are fairly common, Jenny gets a fair number of cases where they are trying to prove a piece of property is community property or individually owned. It’s important to make sure that a property is first converted to community property before placing it in a trust.

It’s very important to know who all the heirs are before taking on a case. Sometimes, there can be an entire side of family that gets forgotten about until someone passes away.

A common case is where the parents pass away and one of the children wants to buy the house. Prop 13 rules can make that pretty complicated.

Do you have a specific way of looking at new cases?

When it comes to probate cases, Jenny wants to know the client first and what they want from the case. She also likes to get to know the family and dig into the titles and probate estate before taking the case. Jenny is very happy to refer cases that involve tension between family members.

Practicing probate law is like dermatology in medicine, it doesn’t usually involve emergency cases.

What gets you up on a Monday morning?

You might have a tough week, but for every tough case there are a number of cases that bring you joy and satisfaction that make up for it.

Links To Resources Mentioned

408-256-0473

svestateplanning.com

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Tell us a little bit about your practice and your clients.

Marivel has been practicing for over 15 years. She always enjoyed working with and helping the senior community. When she went out on her own a few years ago, she began practicing with special needs clients and asset protection planning for seniors. Her typical clients include family businesses, probate clients that have had a loss in the family, and seniors.

Marivel gets a lot of clients going through probate that have trouble maintaining the properties in probate and their own mortgages. She usually has to work quickly to get injunctive relief for the clients to get some breathing room and time to sell the property. They can often be wild rides with a lot of work and lot of parties involved.

Where do your special needs clients come from?

Marivel’s special needs clients typically come from other attorneys that have represented them, or they are often the parents of special needs children that want to protect their children and leave funds behind so they are taken care of.

Guardianships are for minors, conservatorships are for adults, and both can involve real property. Marivel works with the court to make sure that the fiduciary duties are being taken care of in those cases. When working with professional fiduciaries, it always good to be in contact with their representation and understand what kind of court orders are involved in the case.

How have the judges and the bench been treating you?

There are only a few probate courts in Marivel’s area so she really gets to know the court officers in each one. They tend to be very collaborative since they involve the outcomes of families. As long as you are doing your job well, the court will respect you and what you are trying to do.

Video conferencing is becoming more common but a lot of courts haven’t made a lot of use of the technology yet.

Did you have a natural attraction to your area of law?

When Marivel was five years old she knew she was going to be an attorney, she just didn’t know what area of law. All throughout college and high school, she worked in various law firms in various capacities. This gave her the experience she needed to start her own firm later on. She naturally gravitated towards trust and estate law. Her motto is “Your life, your legacy.”

A lot of the attorneys that she resonated with have had similar stories of knowing early on what they wanted to be and do.

What is the most important thing when you’re looking at a new case?

The first thing Marivel does is spend time with the client and let them do the talking. She recognized early on that sometimes the client just needs to be heard. She usually does an intake form after the initial meeting, and then she begins digging into the bones of the matter.

She always asks what they want at the end of the first meeting. This allows her to manage their expectations and let them know how the case could potentially go. From there, it’s just a matter of servicing the client.

What is your biggest strength that surprises your clients?

Marivel is 4”11’, looks young, and she doesn’t speak unless necessary most of the time, so when she becomes aggressive and adversarial to fight for a client people don’t really expect it.

What do you wish you knew as a young attorney?

Don’t take it personally. When your client is upset or the opposing counsel isn’t playing well, it’s not about you. But it’s these kinds of experiences that give you the tough skin you need to succeed.

What gets you up in the morning on a Monday?

Mondays are a great day, they are a chance for Marivel to help her clients through some very tough times in their life and she’s up to the challenge.

Links To Resources Mentioned

909-256-6702

Mmzlawyer.com

facebook.com/mmzlaw

instagram.com/mmzlaw

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Find out about Bruce’s experience with his own 700+ property investments and his predictions for the California real estate market.

What kind of customers do you usually work with?

Bruce was a house flipper himself which was how he got started in teaching his methods to a variety of people. He eventually got into the loan business because he was borrowing a lot of money each month to fund his flipping business.

The first time Bruce went to the club he eventually started speaking at, the first thing that Jack Fullerton said was “anyone that says they can flip houses for a profit immediately after buying them is lying.” Bruce took a hundred pictures of the properties he had flipped and itemized the numbers to show him it was possible. He eventually ended up speaking to the group about his process.

Bruce’s typical clients are the people who hustle around to find whatever properties they can to buy and flip. These clients figure out how to buy and sell wholesale deals at least 20 times a month.

Around 1995, Bruce realized that he didn’t know how to get out of the way of a cycle and keep his investments safe. He collected all the date from 1970 to 1995 that might be able to predict the price of real estate and he wrote a report that got the direction and timing of the future market remarkably close.

Do you have any predictions for the market?

Bruce has noticed that the people that listen to him are either really excited or really afraid. People are very concerned about a future downturn in the market, but Bruce believes the elements that contribute to a crash are not currently present.

It all boils down to a ratio of foreclosures that have to occur. The number of foreclosures are the tipping point that can crash the market. At this point, this is one of the first real estate booms where the majority of people have a stable mortgage and their equity intact.

Bruce relates a story of the single best real estate deal that he’d ever seen. He managed to buy 93 lots and sell them with a lot cost of 1% of the project.

Have you had some crazy title puzzles?

Bruce typically doesn’t deal with title problems, the majority of his problems involve people. The personalities and foibles of dysfunctional people are what usually get in the way. The houses don’t care, people do.

Bruce tells the story of Mrs. Grey, a hoarder with an incredibly dysfunctional family. The story ends with Bruce driving a truck down an embankment at a 40 degree angle to escape a potentially dangerous encounter.

What is your biggest strength that surprises people?

The best compliment Bruce has ever gotten in business was from Mike Kantu. Bruce asked Mike what word the Norris Group had captured. A couple days later, Mike calls up Bruce and tells him that the word is ‘integrity’. Mike said he would have been willing to play high stakes poker over the phone with any of Bruce’s employees and if he was told that he lost, he’d have no problem paying up.

What gets you up on a Monday morning?

Bruce gets excited about working with a group and discovering the next a-ha moment when looking at a chart. Being able to control your circumstances enough to know that you won’t be surprised again is a great comfort.

Links To Resources Mentioned

951-780-5856

thenorrisgroup.com

tngtrustdeeds.com

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Tell us about your practice

Megan has been working as a litigator for the last 5 years and deals with both contentious and non-contentious cases dealing with fun topics like incapacitation and death.

Megan managed to help Rick out on a case where he had written off the money he advanced that he thought he would never see again. She discovered a situation where the person in the case managed to sign a deed months after becoming deceased. The suspect in the case actually had the ironic last name of Charity.

There has to be a continuous adverse possession of five years, and that can be added together between adverse possessors. The heart of the argument in that particular case that Megan made was whether or not the five periods had run.

Tell the listeners about some of your cases.

Megan sees a lot of will and trust disputes where the family members are arguing amongst themselves about whether the person who signed the document had the capacity to sign. She prefers the cases of conservatorship where the person experiencing capacity issues are still alive. As boomers age, cases dealing with Alzheimer’s and other degenerative diseases and capacity will become more common.

Megan relates an incredible story about Lillian Portnoy and her home in Beverly Hills where it appeared like she was being taken advantage of. She helped Lillian go from living in a dilapidated, rat-infested home to selling her home in one the highest court confirmation sales in that area of California.

How do you forensically determine if a decedent is incapacitated?

Finding out someone has dementia issues while they are flying a plan is not a good time to discover it. Putting someone into conservatorship is one of the most restricting things you can do to someone, short of putting them in jail.

It’s very hard to tell when it comes to dementia and what kind of capacity a person has. There are several tests and experts have to examine and recommend actions in order to judge someone else’s ability to make decisions.

What is your biggest strength that surprises your clients?

Megan grew up in a very adult household and she fell into a mediator role between her family members. Cases involving capacity are essentially like a divorce, and she recommends her clients think of it that way. She tries to get people to avoid having to go to trial and prefers to see them walk away with something rather than bleeding the estate dry in a legal battle.

People grieve in different ways, and some people hang on to a litigation as a way of holding on to their loved one. Those clients can be some of the most difficult to get to resolve their case.

What is something you wish you knew as a new attorney that you know now?

You’re going to get through it, and jumping in is the best way to get through it. You learn best from your mistakes especially in front of your peers.

Stay authentic to yourself, you don’t have to be the bully attorney if that’s not your personality.

Links To Resources Mentioned

310-337-7696

schomerlawgroup.com

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How has the local Napa economy been affected by the fires?

The wine industry has been going through some tough times due to the fires recently, in addition to all the other people having it rough. There has been a lot of money raised by the wine industry to help out because a lot of people have lost their homes, so much so that a rent gouging law is going into place.

What does your typical client look like?

James’s typical client is a family or individual that owns some amount of valuable real estate. Estate taxes are not really his focus, but income tax and Prop 13 are major parts of his practice. Everyone should have some estate planning, but especially those with valuable real estate holdings.

His business is mainly about spotting issues, and less about litigation. As an estate planner, if James finds himself in court it’s usually because he screwed up! So that doesn’t happen very often.

What do you find the most interesting about your work?

James likes to solve his client’s problems. Lawyers often get calls when things aren’t going smoothly, but James likes solving problems and then executing the solution. He prefers to be ahead of the problem rather than reacting to one.

James relates a story of a lawyer that made an insurance claim on a collection of cigars that he insured against loss. After smoking the cigars, he claimed they burned in a series of small fires. He ended up winning the case, but then being convicted of 24 counts of arson!

He also tells the tale of a father that passed a property on to his sons but they ran up against Prop 13. Under Prop 13 you can transfer property to children without getting the property reassessed, but not from brother to brother. They had a problem on their hands because 90% of the property would have to be reassessed and that would substantially increase their real estate taxes.

Have you seen many probate cases that go back to ancient times?

The oldest deed James had seen had to do with a property that was being sold to the SMART system. It went all the way back to the Spanish Land Grant. It was really hard to read but probably dated back to the 1870’s.

A great book to learn more is Land in California, it’s produced by the University of California Press and talks about all the issues that arose from the early history of the area. Water rights is another interesting system that is specific to the area.

James also does a fair bit of work in real estate law. He had a client that attempted to buy the house next to hers but ran into some trouble when she tried to sell a house that her mother owned in order to do it. There was a tricky situation involving power of attorney and transferring the deed, but James figured out a solution since she was ultimately the only heir.

How do identify some of the known problems when taking on a new case?

Gather the facts first. Clients will often give you all the relevant facts, they just can’t organize them in their own head. Listen a lot and avoid telling them what to do. Give them alternatives that work within the law. Approach the case from their perspective. If they were a lawyer, what should they do?

What do you think your greatest strength is?

Having the legal and practical experience has helped James quite a bit, alongside being a good listener. Sometimes people will tell you what they want to do without being able to admit it to themselves.

Links To Resources Mentioned

415-472-7808

Demartiniwalker.com

jlw4dw@spcglobal.net

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What does your typical practice look like?

George started the office of Liddle and Liddle with his sister in 1986 and he knew before he started law school what he was going to be doing once he graduated. He usually introduces himself in the manner of Alcoholics Anonymous and says “Hi, my name is George and I evict people.”

If possession of real property is not an issue, it’s not a case that ends up on George’s desk.

George does everything by the book and faces the judge straight on. If you get into an unlawful detainer action that gets complicated, you’ll be glad you’re working with someone who knows their stuff.

Who is your typical client?

George works with all sorts of people including individual mom and pop landlords, medium to large management companies, and more.

The best way to ensure the proper outcome of a detainer action is to make sure you have a proper beginning. You have to start off right or nothing in the case will go your way as the case progresses.

George relates a story of a client that purchased a real estate opportunity from the bank. The defendant in the case had been giving the bank the runaround for nearly five years and managed to give George some difficulty as well but he managed to close it successfully. He also tells a story of a tenant that had been paying his rent to the landlord in the form of marijuana.

A good rule of thumb is to not get too close to your tenants. Keep it a business relationship.

In a strange twist of fate, both Rick and George originally went to college for Zoology. Lucky for them because they do encounter a lot of wild animals around the courthouse.

Unlawful detainer is recognized by the courts as a local action, so George typically only operates in his local area. It’s best to work with someone in the county that the court is located in, but George has been known to help retain local counsel and direct a case from a distance.

Links To Resources Mentioned

626-963-1638

frontdesk@liddleandliddle.com

Liddleandliddle.com

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What does your typical practice look like?

Scott is a probate and trust specialist in addition to focusing on commercial real estate. When it comes to probate court, you’re often finding real estate so there is a lot of overlap between the two fields. Diminished capacity cases also come into play quite often and can be quite complicated.

Looking back into the past to forensically identify whether someone had diminished capacity can be very difficult. Medical evidence is the first place Scott looks when trying to prove diminished capacity because without decent medical evidence, there is often no case at all.

A cursory conversation with someone may not reveal anything obvious, you have to dig into their executive functions before you may notice a truly diminished capacity.

Scott relates a case where a man became so impaired by alcohol and drug dependency, he was convinced into refinancing a duplex he owned and giving the money to his tenant. Eventually, the tenant convinced the man to just give her the property and nothing was discovered until the man was in the hospital much later on.

What is considered undue influence on a senior?

The elderly standard statute is around 65 and most people dealing with undue influence are in their 70’s and 80’s. But that doesn’t mean you can’t also get people in their 50’s and 60’s.

Generally, the rule is it’s harder to challenge or attack lending transactions, so there is a fair amount abuse that goes on in those situations. Scott mainly deals with testamentary decisions, where a trust is amended or created. One of the very first things he looks for after medical evidence is looking at who was involved in the transaction. The minute Scott has any concerns about a client’s capacity, he contacts a professional and has the person assessed.

The concept of undue influence involves three elements: a confidential relationship, active participation, and undue benefit. If you can show all three elements in a transaction, the law presumes that is a void transaction.

Most of the problems that come up in estate planning can be avoided by always using an estate planner instead of creating ambiguity by writing up something yourself.

What do you wish you knew when you were getting started?

Get in the game and get in front of judges and clients as quickly as you can. Find somebody that will be a good mentor for you, one that will allow you to stretch your legs and try things out.

The nature of firms has changed. New lawyers don’t need to join a firm, they can get a lot of the same advantages by building a personal network.

What is your biggest strength?

Scott’s biggest strength is his ability to predict the outcome of most of his cases. When starting a case, Scott focuses on information gathering first, and then breaks it down into pieces. It’s important to not get overwhelmed by a case and to take it in small steps.

Links To Resources Mentioned

310-337-7696

Schomerlawgroup.com

Facebook.com/schomerlawgroup

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Paul focuses on delivering educational seminars in order to reach new people in the market. Paul does probate all across California so he has to analyze which cases will pay out or not. The first thing he does is pull up the grant deed and if he sees the name of the deceased, he knows for sure he has a probate case.

In California, if the amount of money involved is more than $150 000, you have a probate case. You have to analyze the case first before you take it because there are many situations that do not qualify as probate.

What do you do from there? Once Paul checks the deed and takes the case, he looks to see if there was a living trust. He uses a checklist to find out if the case is a probate or not, first by checking the deed, then looking for a trust, and finally assessing if it's more than $150 000 in value. If it turns out to be a probate case, he then has the client draw up a family tree.

If you practice enough probate, you will run into incredibly complicated family trees. Discovering if that individual has the priority over other heirs to be the administrator is important.

Where do you go from there?

You have to have the addresses of all the heirs involved. You're looking at a cost of at least $800 plus most attorneys will charge a fee of $2500 to cover the coming probate costs. As a probate attorney, you will not get paid until the case closes up to a year later.

Do you have issues with clients that change the plan?

In the initial consultation, you have to ask them point blank what the plan for the house is. If they intend to buy out their siblings, make sure they go and get pre-approved and can actually cover the costs involved.

Make sure when you take on a probate case that you are working with the right person. Have them prove their relationship with the case, you have to make sure they aren't trying to pull a fast one on you. You may not believe it, but people will lie.

Make sure there is enough equity in the house so the case makes sense before you take it on. Associated selling fees will cost around 8% and you have to factor that in.

Liens can change the game. Get a real estate professional to run a title search to learn if there are any liens on the house. Ask your escrow or title company to run the social security number to find out the unique identity of the client as well. These are some of the preliminary steps you learn that make sure you get paid and can keep your doors open.

What do you wish you knew as a younger attorney?

Take an area of law and become an expert in it. When you know the field well that's when you do the job correctly. Learn the business aspect of a law practice while you're at it. Sometimes the definition of maturity is the ability to say "no" in one word. You have to know which cases to send somewhere else.

What are the kinds of things that energize you after a tough week?

Practicing law is stressful. Drug dependency is surprisingly high in the legal profession. For Paul, his family drives him to keep working hard and trying to improve his skills.

Links To Resources Mentioned

800-380-7076

paulhornlawfirm.com

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Early on, Bryan realized that general practice was neither practical nor rewarding and has since focused on estate accounting and probate law, with a side specialty in mental health law.

What kind of stories do you hear from the bench?

Bryan's two most memorable comments came from the same judge and he relates how Judge Victor would have no problem calling someone out in the middle of a monologue during a session in court.

When you encounter a problem, you will often discover the solution seemingly at random in the middle of the night. Bryan tells a story where a woman going through a divorce wrote a cheque to her granddaughter and then committed suicide. The bank initially refused to honor the cheque. Bryan was able to get the court to find the cheque as, at worst a constructive trust and was able to solve the problem.

Sometimes you have to step back and not force the answer. It can be important to keep in mind whether there will be someone who loses on the other side of the case or not and adjust your strategy accordingly.

Can you elaborate on property and trusts?

If you have a property that you describe in your attachment to the trust showing a piece of property is a part of the estate, you may not have to record it according to precedent. That doesn't mean it isn't important to make sure your I's are dotted and t's are crossed when it comes to creating the trust correctly in the first place. As long as the trust is in writing, it won't be best practice but it won't be fatal either.

Bryan feels probate is basically another form of general practice, it can cover a variety of scenarios and life events. Probate attorneys encounter all areas of law while specializing in a distinct form.

What do you wish you knew as a young attorney that you know now?

Bryan wished he would have balanced his caseload when he was younger. You have limited time and some cases can last forever. You have to prioritize your time effectively and share the load. Realize that you are not the only probate attorney in town and it's okay to send some referrals out to someone else with more capacity. Don't just take on a client because you know how to fix them.

What is your biggest strength that surprises your clients?

As long as you're not so old that you're getting soggy, you will build up a lot of experience that will surprise people. You will learn which tools to use and when, but you'll also learn which tools not to pick up. Some tools should be a last resort.

What are the kinds of things that energize you?

For Bryan, the best news to find out on a Monday morning is that it's a holiday and no one is going to be in to bug him. The worst is when he has had tough cases in the morning and hard clients in the afternoon. The days that energize Bryan are light days that are a bit easier to get through.

Links To Resources Mentioned

bhartnell@hlmlaywers.com

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How many legal disciplines can be involved in cases?

Family law touches on to almost every area, not only the children but there is often business division issues, property issues and more. Foreclosures will only complicate the process.

What seems to be the commonalities of all these cases?

The way people invest and spend their money affects their marital relationship. When it comes to the house, it’s not obvious who gets the house and in many cases, it’s about who can buy out the other side. When you bring in bad credit, the house often has to be sold.

The most difficult part of the puzzle is how to get both parties to agree to a solution. Liz relates a story of a case where the marital property between a divorcing couple was divided into two equal parts of 25 acres each by a marital judgment. The trouble was they didn’t do the necessary documentation to get the title procured. After the wife divorced the second husband, the process became extremely complicated and took nearly two years to resolve.

The story of the Gordian Knot originated, supposedly, a few thousand years ago. It begins with a Phrygian king trying to marry off his daughter but would only the marriage if a particular knot could be unraveled by the suiter. No one could untangle the knot until one man came along and cut the knot cleanly in two with his sword, and legend has it that man was Alexander the Great.

What first got you into law?

Liz did watch quite a bit of Divorce Court while it was on television when she was younger but it was during the Gubernatorial race between Ronald Reagan and Pat Brown that really put her on the path of becoming an attorney. Her teacher suggested they hold a debate during the race and she did such a good job that she went on to join the debate squad in High School. It was there she learned that was what attorneys do and set her on her path towards law school.

After landing her first job as a lawyer in a civil litigation firm, the lead partner that didn’t enjoy doing divorce work put her on a crazy divorce case and she became hooked. Working in a major law firm before going out on her own and starting her independent practice taught Liz many valuable lessons about how to run an efficient business.

What are some of the craziest cases you’ve had?

Liz worked on one case where the father abducted the child and left for Wales. But one of the most complicated kinds of cases she’s encountered is when your client dies in the middle of a divorce. Rick tells a story of a divorce case where both the husband and wife die from unrelated causes at separate times and each own individual properties. He ended having to get another attorney involved as well as a fiduciary to settle the case and figure out how to deal with the estate.

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