Key Topics

1. Differentiating between learning impact and financial ROI
2. The importance of measuring behaviour change, not just activity completion
3. The role of organisational culture in shaping learning outcomes
4. Practical approaches to quantifying value beyond financial metrics
5. The myth of quick ROI from isolated learning interventions
6. How to foster honest conversations about measurement challenges
7. The danger of over-complicating simple problems in L&D
8. The importance of community sharing real, transparent results
9. Strategies for starting conversations that uncover true organisational needs
10. Building pragmatic, evidence-based learning strategies aligned with business outcomes

Timestamps

1. (00:00) - Introduction to the focus on ROI in learning
2. (02:39) - The challenge of measuring ROI in learning activities
3. (04:23) - How ROI in learning is tied to business impact
4. (08:00) - Beyond financial metrics: understanding emotional and cultural value
5. (12:15) - Rethinking onboarding for measurable impact
6. (16:16) - The influence of organisational culture on learning outcomes
7. (23:10) - Using simple, targeted data to measure error reduction
8. (28:00) - The significance of relevance in learning content
9. (33:10) - Practicing pragmatic measurement approaches
10. (39:20) - The importance of partnering with business teams for results
11. (45:17) - The need for community transparency in success and failure
12. (55:46) - Honest conversations about the real impact of learning initiatives
13. (60:09) - Practical tips for starting measurement conversations

Additional Notes

1. Emphasise simple, practical measurement methods over complex data models
2. Cultivate honest dialogues with stakeholders about what can and cannot be measured
3. Focus on impact areas like engagement, behavior, and culture as well as financial outcomes
4. Recognize the importance of community sharing of successes and lessons learned
5. Be pragmatic: start conversations, ask “what if we did nothing,” and adjust strategies accordingly

This episode challenges traditional notions of ROI and encourages learning professionals to adopt more flexible, honest, and impactful measurement practices. Let’s stop over-complicating and start focusing on what truly moves the needle.

In this episode, Greg Arthur and Stephen Egri delve into the complexities of learning strategies within organizations. They discuss the importance of understanding what a learning strategy entails, the various components that make up an effective strategy, and the role of technology, particularly AI, in shaping the future of learning. The conversation highlights the challenges organizations face in implementing these strategies and emphasizes the need for stakeholder engagement and data-driven decision-making. As they explore trends in learning strategy development, they conclude with insights on how learning functions can evolve to better serve their organizations.

Takeaways

Learning strategy is often seen as a complex and evolving field.

There is no one-size-fits-all approach to learning strategies.

Effective learning strategies should be in service of organizational goals.

Technology, especially AI, plays a crucial role in modern learning strategies.

Stakeholder engagement is essential for successful learning strategy implementation.

Learning functions should operate more like profit centers.

Data-driven decision-making is vital for effective learning strategies.

Testing and iteration are important in developing learning strategies.

The future of learning will involve orchestration of various elements.

Understanding employee needs is key to developing effective learning strategies.

Titles

Navigating the Complexities of Learning Strategy

The Future of Learning: AI and Strategy

sound bites

"Learning strategy is gigantic."

"AI can show up in terms of skills mapping."

"The future of learning is orchestration."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Podcast Setup

00:12 Understanding Learning Strategy

03:00 The Complexity of Learning Strategies

05:36 Common Features of Learning Strategies

08:34 The Role of Technology in Learning

11:14 The Importance of Stakeholder Engagement

14:14 The Future of Learning Strategies

21:13 Understanding Learning Strategies

24:38 The Importance of Employee Feedback

27:14 Testing and Experimentation in Learning Strategies

30:39 The Role of Learning Functions in Organizations

35:05 AI's Impact on Learning Strategies

42:53 Future Trends in Learning Ecosystems

Keywords

learning strategy, organizational development, AI in learning, talent development, learning ecosystems, employee engagement, training effectiveness, learning technology, workforce development, educational frameworks

In this episode of the Product Design for Learning podcast, hosts Greg Arthur, Ashley Hinchcliffe, and Caleb discuss the evolving landscape of Learning and Development (L&D). They explore the challenges faced by internal L&D teams, the importance of external support, and the need for a shift in how L&D is perceived within organizations. The conversation emphasizes the necessity for L&D to align with business objectives, embrace change, and focus on delivering tailored learning experiences that add real value. The role of technology and the future of learning are also key themes, highlighting the importance of adapting to new methods and tools to enhance learning outcomes.

Takeaways

L&D is facing an identity crisis and needs to adapt.

External agencies can provide valuable insights and challenge internal teams.

There is a need for L&D to align with business objectives.

Quality over quantity is essential in learning content.

The perception of L&D as a cost center must change.

Engagement and value perception are critical for L&D success.

Tailored learning experiences are more effective than generic content.

Technology can enhance learning but must be used wisely.

L&D should focus on measurable outcomes and business impact.

Collaboration between internal teams and external agencies is vital for success.

Titles

Reimagining Learning and Development

The Future of L&D: Challenges and Opportunities

sound bites

"L&D is dying or has an identity crisis."

"We're at the beginning of a rebirth."

"We need to challenge the status quo."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Guest Introductions

02:29 The Importance of External Perspectives in L&D

05:12 Challenges Facing L&D: Identity Crisis or Rebirth?

08:09 The Role of External Agencies in L&D

10:55 Navigating Organizational Dynamics and Value Perception

13:53 Reframing L&D's Value Proposition

16:40 The Future of L&D: Confidence and Investment

22:57 The Evolving Role of Learning and Development

24:34 Aligning Learning with Business Strategy

27:09 Rethinking Content Creation in L&D

30:23 The Challenge of Content Overload

33:01 The Future of Learning: Personalization and AI

40:45 Proactive vs Reactive Learning Strategies

43:46 Collaboration Between Agencies and Internal Teams

Keywords

L&D, learning and development, external agencies, internal teams, business strategy, training, education, corporate learning, engagement, value perception

In this engaging conversation, Greg Arthur and Toby discuss the current state of Learning and Development (L&D) models, the challenges posed by outdated frameworks, and the impact of ego on the industry. They explore the necessity for flexibility in learning models, the role of AI in education, and the importance of self-awareness for personal growth. The dialogue emphasizes the need for a shift in mindset within L&D, advocating for a focus on individual development rather than rigid adherence to traditional models. The conversation concludes with reflections on the future of L&D and the potential for new approaches to emerge.

Takeaways

L&D is facing a crisis with outdated models.

Ego plays a significant role in the adherence to traditional models.

Self-awareness is crucial for personal and professional growth.

AI is transforming the landscape of L&D.

Flexibility in learning models is essential for modern education.

The focus should shift from organizational needs to individual development.

Challenging existing models can lead to better outcomes.

The importance of questioning the effectiveness of current practices.

Learning styles should not be dismissed but adapted to individual preferences.

The future of L&D requires innovative thinking and adaptability.

Titles

Revolutionizing Learning and Development

The Ego Trap in L&D

Sound bites

"Models need to be flexible."

"Self-awareness is a skill."

"The Royal Rumble of ROI."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Context Setting

02:14 The State of Learning and Development Models

05:12 Challenging Outdated Models

08:12 The Role of Ego in Learning and Development

10:53 The Impact of AI on Learning and Development

13:43 Navigating Change in Learning and Development

16:34 The Future of Learning and Development

24:55 The Impact of AI on Learning and Development

27:56 The Future of L&D in the Age of AI

33:36 The Need for a Shift in Mindset

39:11 Developing Self-Awareness in Learning

43:35 Integrating AI with Human Insight

45:49 Questioning Learning Models

48:47 The Debate on Learning Styles

51:49 The Role of Learning Design

55:37 Measuring ROI in Learning

59:23 The Complexity of Development

01:05:21 The Importance of Discourse

Keywords

Learning and Development, L&D Models, Ego in Learning, AI in Education, Self-Awareness, Flexibility in Learning, Future of Learning, Personal Growth, ROI in Learning, Modern Learning Strategies

Titles

Rethinking Education and Learning

The Influence of Social Media on Learning

Sound bites

"Why don't people change?"

"It's a moral dilemma in L&D."

"Do I want to step out of line?"

Chapters

00:00 Education vs. Learning: A Fundamental Distinction

05:47 Conformity and Resistance to Change in Learning

11:19 Experience Design: Lessons from Other Industries

17:13 Transformative Experiences: The Power of Small Interactions

27:57 The Disconnect in Job Advertisements

32:47 Adapting 5DI for Real-World Applications

39:38 The Metrics of Success in Learning

50:06 The Birth of Learning Design

55:33 Revolutionizing Training for New Consultants

01:00:37 The Role of Learning Management Systems (LMS) and Experience Platforms (LXP)

01:06:49 The Evolution of Wearable Technology and User Experience

01:16:13 Swimming Against the Tide: The Role of Learning in Growth

Keywords

education, learning, experience design, social media, learning development, instructional design, performance support, data-driven learning, organizational change, engagement, Learning and Development, AI in Education, Performance Support, Experience Design, Leadership, Compliance, Future of Learning, Technology in Learning, Social Impact of AI, Career Choices in L&D

Takeaways

Education and learning are fundamentally different concepts.

Social media influences the way learning and development discussions occur.

Traditional learning models often fail to engage learners effectively.

Experience design is crucial for creating impactful learning experiences.

Contextual understanding is essential for effective learning.

Small details in experience design can lead to significant learning outcomes.

There is often a disconnect between learning theory and practical application.

Organizations may adopt new language without changing underlying practices.

Real learning experiences are often neglected in favor of traditional methods.

Data-driven approaches in learning can sometimes lead to superficial metrics. It's a moral dilemma in L&D to choose between compliance and making a difference.

Career choices in L&D often lead to a personal decision about impact.

There's a dichotomy in available roles in the learning industry.

AI is set to hollow out traditional education roles.

Performance support is a key area where human input is still needed.

Leadership skills are crucial for business performance.

Disillusionment is common among L&D professionals today.

AI's role in learning conferences often lacks real impact.

The future of learning design is evolving but still needs clarity.

An agency model could revolutionize how learning is delivered.

The conversation explores the significant changes occurring in the industry, focusing on the relevance of skills, the importance of positioning, and the need for professionals to adapt to stay competitive. It highlights the varying responses individuals have to these changes, from actively engaging to feeling left behind.

Takeaways

Our industry is undergoing significant transformation.

The relevance of existing skills is in question.

Many professionals feel unprepared for these changes.

Positioning in the market is often neglected.

Adapting to new skills is essential for success.

There is a disparity in how individuals respond to change.

Some are actively pursuing new opportunities, while others are passive.

Professional development must be prioritized.

Understanding market dynamics is crucial for career growth.

Engagement with industry changes is necessary for relevance.

Titles

Navigating the Shifting Landscape of Our Industry

The Relevance of Skills in a Changing World

Sound bites

"Chasing the bus is not enough anymore"

"We need to adapt to stay relevant"

"Understanding market perception is key"

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to the Conversation

00:27 The State of Learning and Development (L&D)

Keywords

industry change, skills relevance, market positioning, professional development, career adaptation

Takeaways

AI is a tool that can enhance talent development.

Knowledge sharing is crucial for effective AI integration.

Curiosity and experimentation are key to leveraging AI.

User stories help illustrate practical applications of AI.

Creating a culture of experimentation fosters innovation.

It's important to start with real problems when using AI.

Don't hesitate to share failures; they can be learning opportunities.

Mixing different AI tools can optimize processes.

Engaging in dialogue about AI can spark new ideas.

The future of work will require continuous learning and adaptation.

Titles

Unlocking AI's Potential in Talent Development

Navigating the AI Landscape in the Workplace

Sound bites

"You can't spell AI without HR."

"AI can help solve real problems."

"Don't rely on one tool, mix it up."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Adam Harwood and Genomics

02:52 Exploring AI in Talent Development

08:42 Understanding AI Fundamentals and Learning

14:26 Knowledge Sharing and Internal Sessions

20:19 User Stories and Practical Applications of AI

22:19 Exploring AI Tools: A Hands-On Approach

24:06 Real-World Applications of AI in Engineering

26:01 Identifying Real Problems for AI Solutions

27:28 The Impact of AI on HR Processes

29:11 User Stories: Individual Experiences with AI

31:36 Creating a Culture of Sharing and Experimentation

34:06 Navigating Permission and Social Acceptance of AI

38:09 Encouraging Experimentation and Curiosity with AI

41:23 Identifying Problems to Apply AI Solutions

42:35 Fostering Team Collaboration and Sharing Ideas

44:59 Embracing Experimentation and Learning from Failure

47:53 The Simplicity of AI Interfaces and Accessibility

49:53 Building an AI Tech Stack and Continuous Learning

52:46 Exploring AI Use Cases and Industry Trends

55:11 The Future of Work and AI's Impact on Jobs

Keywords

AI, Talent Development, Knowledge Sharing, User Stories, Workplace Innovation, Learning and Development, AI Tools, Human-Centered Design, Future of Work, Experimentation

Learning Network discount code for CONNECT, is: twocircles10

Takeaways

The Learning Network fosters a sense of belonging among its members.

Community is built on trust and openness, allowing for safe discussions.

Members range from newcomers to seasoned professionals, creating a diverse environment.

The network provides opportunities for mentorship and professional growth.

Success is measured qualitatively through member feedback and engagement.

AI is a hot topic among members, with mixed feelings about its impact.

The network evolves naturally with each new board, reflecting member needs.

Events like Tea and Talk encourage informal networking and sharing.

The Connect event focuses on the intersection of technology and humanity.

The human element remains crucial in the face of technological advancements.

Summary

In this episode of the Product Design for Learning podcast, Greg Arthur engages with members of the Learning Network to explore the significance of community in learning and development. The discussion highlights the importance of belonging, the impact of the network on its members, and the transition from being a member to a board member. The conversation also delves into how success is measured within the network, current trends such as AI, and the future of the Learning Network, culminating in an overview of the upcoming Connect event.

Timestamp

00:00:01

Titles

Building Community in Learning and Development

The Power of Belonging in Professional Networks

Sound bites

"The Learning Network fosters a sense of belonging."

"Community is built on trust and openness."

"AI is a hot topic among members."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to the Learning Network

02:55 Understanding Community in Learning and Development

05:44 Creating a Sense of Belonging

08:25 Impact of the Learning Network

11:34 Personal Growth and Opportunities

14:19 Measuring Success in the Learning Network

17:04 Current Trends and Concerns in L&D

19:43 Innovation and Evolution in the Learning Network

21:22 Innovation Through Community Engagement

25:31 Exploring Learning Communities

27:30 The Future of Learning Networks

31:43 Connect Event Insights

skills frameworks, performance improvement, learning and development, EdTech, agile learning, AI in education, stakeholder engagement, data analytics, organizational culture, continuous improvement

Summary

In this conversation, Greg Arthur and Phil Lord-David delve into the complexities of skills frameworks within the learning and development (L&D) sector. They discuss the importance of starting with business outcomes rather than merely mapping skills to roles, the pitfalls of traditional frameworks, and the need for agility and iteration in skills development. Phil emphasizes the significance of understanding the real problems within organizations and the role of technology, particularly AI, in enhancing skills frameworks. The discussion also touches on the cultural context of skills, the separation of skills from performance, and practical steps for building effective skills frameworks.

Takeaways

Starting with the right questions is crucial for success.

Focus on business outcomes rather than just skills mapping.

Agility and iteration are key in skills development.

Understand the real problems employees face.

Technology should enable insight, not just track completions.

Skills frameworks should evolve over time.

Engage with senior leadership to align on goals.

AI can help make skills development more manageable.

Don't let perfection hinder progress.

Start small and build momentum.

Titles

Rethinking Skills Frameworks

The Agility of Learning and Development

Sound bites

"Start where it hurts."

"Tech is to enable insight."

"Don't go into analysis paralysis."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Skills Frameworks

02:38 The Right Questions for Skills Frameworks

05:32 Rethinking Frameworks: Beyond Monstrous Spreadsheets

08:37 The Cost of Delay in Skills Development

11:13 Identifying Key Skills: Where to Start

14:13 The Relationship Between Skills and Performance

16:58 Cultural Issues vs. Skills Issues

20:02 The Role of Technology in Skills Development

22:49 Iterative Approaches to Skills Frameworks

25:54 Engaging Stakeholders in Skills Development

28:36 Conclusion: Building a Dynamic Skills Framework

31:16 Rethinking Skill Gaps and Business Outcomes

33:35 The Role of AI in Skills Frameworks

37:11 Essential Skills for Building a Skills Framework

39:48 Navigating Resistance and Building Resilience

43:44 Technology's Role in Learning and Development

49:21 The Impact of AI on Skills Frameworks

54:45 Actionable Advice for Implementing Skills Frameworks

future of learning, learning and development, corporate learning, accessibility, inclusivity, data-driven learning, AI in education, generational perspectives, employee experience, decentralized learning

Summary

In this episode, Greg Arthur hosts a discussion with Jess, Toby, and David about the future of learning and development. They explore the uncertainty surrounding the future of learning, the importance of accessibility and inclusivity, and the need for corporate learning to evolve. The conversation delves into generational perspectives on learning, the significance of data-driven decision-making, and the impact of AI on learning and development. The speakers emphasize the importance of understanding the problems that learning aims to solve and the need for a decentralized approach to learning, where people help people. They conclude with a call to action for learning professionals to embrace change and leverage data effectively.

Takeaways

The future of learning is uncertain and difficult to predict.

Learning will always exist, but the structure of L&D may change.

Accessibility and inclusivity in learning are crucial for the future.

Self-directed learning has proven to be powerful and effective.

Corporate learning needs to fundamentally change to meet modern demands.

Bad learning experiences should not be tolerated in organizations.

AI can serve as a powerful tool for data management in learning.

Learning should happen in the flow of work, not as a separate activity.

Data is essential for understanding the effectiveness of learning initiatives.

A decentralized approach to learning can enhance employee engagement and effectiveness.

Titles

The Uncertain Future of Learning

Accessibility in Learning: A Vision for the Future

Sound bites

"The future of learning is uncertain."

"Self-directed learning is powerful."

"Data is the missing link in L&D."

Chapters

00:00 The Future of Learning: An Introduction

01:17 Diverse Perspectives on Learning's Future

05:23 Self-Directed Learning and Corporate L&D

09:33 The Challenge of Bad Learning Experiences

12:10 Generational Perspectives on Learning

15:57 Bridging the Gap: Technology and Learning

19:06 The Role of Employee Experience in Learning

26:00 Starting the Transformation in Learning

26:48 Mapping HR to Customer Experience

28:32 The Importance of Genuine Outcomes

29:50 The Future of Learning and Development

31:27 Generational Shifts in Learning Expectations

34:34 The Role of AI in Learning and Development

38:07 Redefining Learning in the Workplace

40:43 The Impact of AI on Content Creation

45:07 The Challenge of Change in L&D

49:06 Decentralizing Learning Experiences

50:55 Transforming Online Facilitation

53:52 The Role of Technology in Learning

56:44 Data-Driven Learning and Development

58:38 The Future of Learning and Data Management

01:01:19 Understanding Learning Outcomes and Business Impact

01:05:40 The Importance of Employee Experience

01:07:55 Measuring Employee and Employer Value

01:13:37 The Path Forward for Learning and Development

learning design, cognitive neuroscience, attention, focus, engagement, product design, learning revolution, digital detox, future of learning, organizational learning

Summary

In this episode, Greg Arthur interviews Lauren, the Learning Pirate, about the intersection of cognitive neuroscience and learning design. They discuss the outdated models in the learning industry, the importance of understanding how the brain works, and the need for a revolution in learning practices. Lauren emphasizes the significance of designing learning experiences that cater to individual differences and the role of attention and focus in effective learning. They also explore the impact of technology on learning, the necessity of digital detox, and the future of learning and development in organizations.

Takeaways

The brain is the primary client in learning design.

Outdated models in the learning industry hinder progress.

Understanding cognitive neuroscience can enhance learning design.

Attention and focus are critical for effective learning.

Designing for individual differences is essential in learning.

Digital detox can improve focus and learning outcomes.

Learning is a fundamental human process that needs attention.

The future of learning requires a shift in understanding human behavior.

Engagement metrics often do not reflect true learning outcomes.

A collaborative approach is necessary for effective learning design.

Titles

Revolutionizing Learning Design

The Science Behind Learning

Sound bites

"Learning is hard."

"We are in feedback loops of shiny tools."

"Can we learn how to learn better?"

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Learning Design

03:03 The Role of Cognitive Neuroscience in Learning

05:59 Bridging the Gap: Translating Science into Practice

09:06 Designing for Individual Differences in Learning

12:00 Attention and Focus in Learning Design

15:03 Evaluating E-Learning Experiences

18:02 The Importance of Practical Application in Learning

20:57 Reactions to New Learning Approaches

24:08 The Need for a Learning Revolution

30:41 Understanding Learning and ROI in Organizations

33:47 The Impact of Technology on Learning Behavior

36:18 Managing Attention in a Distracted World

41:03 The Journey of Learning and Personal Growth

44:41 Challenges in Learning and Development

50:37 Starting Points for Effective Learning

54:47 The Future of Learning and Development

AI, production, technology, human skills, learning design, tools, job security, generative AI, digital intelligence, critical thinking, AI, collaboration, creativity, future of work, human skills, technology, problem-solving, innovation, prompt engineering, decision-making

Summary

In this conversation, Greg Arthur and Ross Stevenson explore the role of AI in production, emphasizing the importance of human skills and critical thinking in leveraging AI tools effectively. They discuss misconceptions about AI's impact on jobs, the necessity of a human-centric approach, and the challenges of navigating the growing landscape of AI tools. The conversation highlights the need for a balanced perspective on AI, recognizing it as a tool that should complement human capabilities rather than replace them. In this conversation, Ross and Greg explore the evolving role of AI in problem-solving and creativity, emphasizing the importance of human collaboration and critical thinking. They discuss how AI can serve as a tool to enhance decision-making and innovation, while also cautioning against over-reliance on technology. The dialogue highlights the need for individuals to maintain their skills and adapt to the changing landscape of work, as well as the potential future implications of AI on society.

Takeaways

AI is not a new concept; it's an evolution of existing technology.

Generative AI allows more people to become 'amateur builders'.

Critical thinking should not be outsourced to AI tools.

Human skills are essential for effectively using AI.

Overreliance on AI can lead to de-skilling.

AI tools should be seen as extensions of human capabilities.

Not all tasks require AI; traditional tools can be effective.

The hype around AI can lead to inflated expectations.

Trial and error is crucial in implementing AI solutions.

A human-first approach is necessary for successful AI integration. AI should be viewed as a collaborative partner, not a replacement.

Human thinking is essential in guiding AI's capabilities.

Experimenting with AI can lead to innovative solutions.

Critical thinking and creativity remain vital in the age of AI.

Prototyping should focus on feedback rather than perfection.

AI tools can enhance decision-making but should not replace human judgment.

Understanding the context is crucial for effective AI use.

Investing in human skills is essential for future job security.

Prompt engineering is about clear communication with AI tools.

The future of work will require a balance between human skills and AI capabilities.

Titles

AI in Production: A New Era

The Human Element in AI Utilization

Sound bites

"It's not just AI did it all."

"You can innovate bad practices."

"Common sense will prevail."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to AI in Production

03:27 The Importance of AI in Production

06:36 Misconceptions About AI and Job Security

11:12 The Role of Human Skills in AI Utilization

16:08 Navigating the AI Landscape

22:00 The Future of AI in Business

23:18 The Early Days of AI and Its Context

24:22 Understanding AI's Role in Project Management

27:29 Human-Centric Approach to AI Utilization

30:22 The Binary Nature of AI and Its Limitations

32:03 Trial and Error in AI Integration

34:50 AI as a Collaborative Partner

39:39 The Future of AI in Design and Content Creation

43:48 The Role of AI in Creative Industries

46:07 Mindset and Human Skills in the Age of AI

50:04 Prompt Engineering and Effective AI Interaction

56:09 The Future of AI and Human Collaboration

Learning and Development, Startups, HR, Experiential Learning, Stakeholder Management, Problem Solving, Employee Training, Corporate Learning, Self-Awareness, Learning Culture

Summary

In this episode, Greg Arthur and Nick Bilotta discuss the unique challenges and opportunities of Learning and Development (L&D) in startup environments. They explore the importance of experiential learning, the role of HR in startups, and how to effectively manage stakeholders. The conversation emphasizes the need for L&D professionals to view themselves as problem solvers and to meet learners where they are. They also touch on the significance of intention and reflection in the learning process, and the value of practical tools like checklists and templates. The episode concludes with advice for those working in startups and the evolving nature of L&D.

Takeaways

Startups require a unique approach to Learning and Development.

Experiential learning is crucial in fast-paced environments.

L&D professionals should view themselves as problem solvers.

Intent and reflection are key components of effective learning.

Checklists and templates can be more valuable than elaborate training programs.

Understanding the business needs is essential for L&D success.

Stakeholder management is critical in learning initiatives.

Learning should be integrated into the daily workflow.

The culture of a startup can foster open communication and collaboration.

Failure is a valuable teacher in the startup landscape.

Titles

Navigating Learning and Development in Startups

The Startup Survival Guide for L&D

Sound bites

"Learning is about survival in startups."

"Managers are not a different species."

"Failure is the best teacher."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Learning and Development in Startups

03:01 The Unique Challenges of Startups

05:57 Survival Mode: The Startup Mentality

09:00 When to Introduce Learning and Development

11:56 The Evolution of HR and Learning

14:45 Experiential Learning in Startups

17:51 Reframing Learning Requests

20:49 Stakeholder Management in Learning and Development

28:21 Navigating Stakeholder Dynamics

29:59 The Importance of Audience-Centric Design

31:58 The Value of Practical Tools in Learning

35:57 Fostering Self-Awareness and Growth

38:51 Rethinking Learning and Development Roles

41:57 The Challenge of Adult Learning

45:42 Intentional Learning and Reflection

48:55 Understanding Business Needs in Learning

51:53 Advice for Startups in Learning and Development

The Future of L&D Conferences: Breaking the Mould with Anamaria Dorgo and Dinye Hernanda

Episode Summary

In Episode 16 of Product Design for Learning, host Greg Arthur is joined by Anamaria Dorgo, Learning and Community Consultant at Handle with Brain, and Dinye Hernanda, Founder and Learning Designer at haus of ilmu. Together, they explore the current state of learning and development (L&D) conferences, discussing what works, what doesn’t, and how a shift towards more participatory, community-led formats could transform the way L&D professionals gather, collaborate, and grow. From personal experiences to organising their own “nonference”, this is a candid, insightful conversation about designing conferences that actually enable learning.

Guest Profile

🎙 Anamaria Dorgo

Role: Learning and Community Consultant at Handle with Brain

Highlights:

• Creator of L&D Shakers, a global community of practice
• 
  
• Specialises in learning experience design, social learning, and facilitation
• 
  
• Advocate for experimental formats and inclusive peer learning
• 
  

🎙 Dinye Hernanda

Role: Founder & Learning Designer at haus of ilmu

Highlights:

• Extensive experience building L&D functions in startups and scale-ups
• 
  
• Focuses on leadership development, inclusion, and climate-conscious learning
• 
  
• Author of a widely discussed article critiquing conventional L&D conferences
• 
  

Key Take-Aways

• Traditional L&D conferences are often passive, overly scripted, and fail to reflect how professionals actually learn.
• 
  
• A lack of diversity in voices, especially from practitioners, limits the relevance and impact of many events.
• 
  
• Conferences need more participatory design, including workshops, discussions, and collaborative formats.
• 
  
• The L&D Shakers Nonference serves as a successful example of flipping the script—centred on co-creation, experimentation, and community energy.
• 
  
• The future of L&D events lies in designing for practice, not just performance—highlighting real stories, including failure, and welcoming all levels of experience.
• 
  

How Did You First Engage with L&D Conferences?

Dinye Hernanda:

Her first major L&D event was Online Educa Berlin, where she engaged as a speaker, attendee, and behind-the-scenes contributor. While she valued the exposure, she found the experience overly polished and lacking deeper learning impact.

Anamaria Dorgo:

Also attended OEB, describing it as large, impersonal, and not designed for solo attendees. Although it was energising to be among peers, she noticed a lack of deliberate structure to encourage meaningful networking or engagement.

What’s the Current State of Learning Conferences?

Anamaria:

Described most conferences as content-heavy marathons with minimal design for participant interaction. Often overwhelming, with too little reflection space.

Dinye:

Argued that most L&D conferences contradict what L&D professionals themselves advocate: learning isn’t an event. Conferences should embody the principles we preach—yet most don’t.

Where Are We Missing Opportunities?

• There’s a need for more voices from actual practitioners, not just polished presenters or academic experts.
• 
  
• Events should allow room for failure stories, real case studies, and unfiltered experiences.
• 
  
• Diverse formats—from fishbowls to world cafés—can enrich learning and build genuine community.
• 
  
• It’s not just about organisers doing better; attendees also need to show up actively, ready to participate.
• 
  

Why Create the L&D Shakers Nonference?

The Nonference emerged from a local L&D Shakers hub in Amsterdam—not from protest, but from curiosity. The community wanted a learning event that felt different, human, and co-created.

Key Features:

• No traditional keynote hierarchy
• 
  
• Active design based on experience design principles
• 
  
• Collaborative workshops, embodied activities, and creative exercises like a “Learning Museum”
• 
  
• A deliberate departure from perfectionism and expert-led narratives
• 
  

What Have You Learned Since the Nonference?

• Most attendees loved the fresh format, but some struggled with the lack of direct content delivery.
• 
  
• This reflects an industry still anchored to traditional expectations—that learning equals listening.
• 
  
• It affirmed the need for more layered, varied conference structures to serve diverse needs.
• 
  

What Would Your Ideal Conference Look Like?

Dinye:

Imagines a learning dojo—a space for continuous practice, shared effort, and collective improvement. Where “masters” and “students” are peers and everyone contributes to the experience.

Anamaria:

Points to the Next Learning Conference in the Netherlands as a promising model. With multiple learning tracks, creative spaces, and hands-on activities, it balances commercial needs with genuine participant experience.

What’s the Future of Learning Conferences?

• 10 Years From Now: Possibly little change unless disruption forces it.
• 
  
• 20 Years From Now: With new generations and technological acceleration, conferences may be radically different—cross-disciplinary, participatory, and focused on real-world challenges.
• 
  
• L&D might not even be called L&D—perhaps a Human Enhancement Department, focused on adaptability and systems-level learning.
• 
  

Chapters and Time Stamps

[00:00] – Welcome and Guest Introductions

[01:30] – First Experiences with L&D Conferences

[06:30] – Defining the Current State of L&D Events

[10:40] – Where L&D Conferences Fall Short

[16:00] – Opportunities for Innovation and Inclusion

[28:00] – Birth of the L&D Shakers Nonference

[40:50] – Reflections and Feedback Post-Event

[47:30] – Blending Traditional and Emerging Models

[58:00] – Future Visions for L&D Conferences

[01:07:00] – Final Reflections and Where to Connect

About the Podcast

Product Design for Learning, hosted by Greg Arthur, explores how learning professionals can apply product design thinking to build more effective, engaging, and scalable learning experiences. Each episode blends voices from L&D, design, and strategy, spotlighting real-world challenges and practical solutions.

How MAAS Marketing Elevates Learning Products Through Marketing Integration | Episode 15

Episode Summary

In Episode 15 of the Product Design for Learning podcast, host Greg Arthur welcomes Ashley Hinchcliffe and Hannah Clark from MAAS Marketing. Together, they unpack why marketing is not just a final step, but a continuous thread in learning product design. The conversation dives deep into the integration of marketing and L&D, the importance of audience research, avoiding the “tick box” trap, and building real learner engagement. Whether you’re in L&D, marketing, or product development, this episode is packed with insights you can act on today.

Guest Profile

Ashley Hinchcliffe is the Managing Director of MAAS Marketing, passionate about transforming how organizations think about learning engagement and ROI.

Hannah Clark is the Marketing Director at MAAS Marketing, with a decade of experience in learning and development, specializing in audience-focused, data-driven campaigns that drive learner action.

Key Take-Aways

• Marketing should be embedded throughout the learning design process—not just at release.
• Audience research is critical to aligning learning products with real business and learner needs.
• L&D must own its brand narrative and prove value through measurable outcomes.
• Effective internal marketing relies on multi-channel, repeated messaging—not a single “big bang.”
• You can’t “out-market” a poor learning product; product-market fit is foundational.
• L&D teams need the confidence and data to push back and align learning with strategy.

Questions Asked & Summarized Answers

How would you summarize the marketing phase in learning product design?

Ashley and Hannah challenge the idea that marketing is just a phase. They explain that marketing should start from the beginning, integrated into audience research, product development, and delivery to avoid creating irrelevant or unused products.

Why does audience research matter in learning?

The guests emphasize that understanding employee needs, motivations, and pain points helps design learning products that truly resonate—and that marketers and designers need to work together from the start.

What’s the danger of marketing a bad learning product?

Ashley points out that no amount of marketing can save a bad product. Once learners have a poor experience, it’s harder to win them back. Product-market fit and relevance are essential before launching campaigns.

Why do “big bang” launches often fail?

Hannah explains that one-off events like town halls or learning weeks create short-term noise but don’t lead to long-term engagement. Effective campaigns require repetition, consistency, and multi-channel strategies.

Where should L&D teams start with marketing?

Ashley recommends developing audience personas and identifying the “what’s in it for me” for each group. Hannah adds that L&D professionals must practice empathy, avoid personal bias, and meet learners where they already spend time (e.g., Slack, Teams, intranet).

How can L&D shift from being a cost center to a value driver?

Ashley and Hannah stress that L&D must align with business strategy, measure ROI, and proactively communicate its impact. Leadership buy-in and data-driven decision-making are key to transforming L&D’s internal reputation.

Chapters and Time Stamps

[00:00] – Introduction and Guest Welcome

[02:00] – Meet Ashley Hinchcliffe and Hannah Clark

[03:40] – Why Marketing is Not Just a Phase

[06:30] – Understanding Audience Needs

[10:00] – The ROI Crisis in L&D

[17:00] – Where to Start: Building Personas and Messaging

[25:00] – Why Big Bang Launches Fail

[32:00] – Aligning Product and Marketing for Impact

[44:00] – Leadership, Confidence, and Saying No

[53:00] – Final Takeaways and Plugs (Including Their Podcast and World of Learning Sip & Learn)

About the Podcast

Product Design for Learning is hosted by Greg Arthur and explores how learning products can be designed for maximum engagement, impact, and usability. Featuring top industry experts, the podcast delivers real-world advice, fresh perspectives, and actionable takeaways to help L&D professionals elevate their work.

If you like, I can also draft SEO keywords, a meta description, or social media captions to promote this episode! Let me know. 🚀

Episode Summary

In this episode of Product Design for Learning, host Greg Arthur is joined by Carlo José, Global Head of Leadership and Learning at GSK. Together, they unpack how data, performance consulting, and design thinking intersect to build impactful learning strategies at scale. From debunking mobile learning myths to discussing the power of personas and practical ways to measure impact, Carlo shares rich insights from his global experience at GSK and HSBC. Whether you're a solo practitioner or part of a large L&D team, this episode is packed with actionable advice for designing smarter, data-informed learning products.

Guest Profile

Carlo José is the Global Head of Leadership and Learning at GSK, based in London. With over a decade in L&D and nearly two decades across operations and service delivery, Carlo brings a unique blend of data fluency, leadership development, and user-focused design thinking. Previously, he held senior roles at HSBC and has led high-impact leadership programmes across global enterprises. Carlo is passionate about making data practical, using it not just to inform decisions but to drive meaningful learning outcomes.

Key Take-Aways

• Data is a thread, not just a phase – It should be embedded across the entire learning lifecycle, from scoping to impact measurement.
• 
  
• Performance consulting starts with empathy – Ask better questions before jumping into data or solutions.
• 
  
• Personas are a tool, not gospel – Use them for direction, not as hard rules, and always supplement with live insights.
• 
  
• You don’t need to be a data scientist – But you should be data-literate enough to avoid being misled or overwhelmed.
• 
  
• Leadership development needs time and real-world data – Sometimes the ROI is years down the line, and that's okay.
• 
  
• Polls, pulse checks, and social listening can be just as powerful as formal analytics.
• 
  
• Focus more on outcomes than vanity metrics like attendance or completion rates.
• 
  

Questions Asked During the Episode

How do you approach data in the learning design process?

Carlo sees data as both a standalone phase and a continual thread throughout the learning lifecycle. From identifying problems to measuring impact, data informs everything.

How has your background in operations shaped your L&D practice?

Coming from an operations background, Carlo brought a performance mindset to L&D, focusing on measurable outcomes and process improvement.

Is data still as hot a topic in L&D as it used to be?

While AI now dominates conversations, data is still foundational. Carlo explains how sentiment analysis and structured/unstructured data are becoming easier to leverage.

How do you balance qualitative vs quantitative data?

Carlo advises categorising data into textual, numerical, and opinion-based insights, all of which have value at different stages of product development.

How do you stop teams from being overwhelmed by data?

Keep it scoped, work with data partners where available, and use user-friendly tools like ChatGPT and poll surveys for fast insights.

Are personas still relevant in modern L&D design?

Yes, but they’re just one tool. Carlo uses them when available and combines them with user feedback loops like experience networks and shop-floor visits (Gemba walks).

How do you measure long-term impact and behaviour change?

It’s not always instant. Carlo shares an example from HSBC where a CEO pipeline programme showed ROI years after delivery via LinkedIn alumni tracking.

What are your thoughts on Level 1–4 evaluation models?

Use Level 1 and 2 initially, then shift focus toward Level 3 (behaviour change) and 4 (business impact) for sustainable value.

How can small teams do better with data?

Start with free tools like ChatGPT, tap into WhatsApp or Slack communities, and run small polls for direction. It’s about curiosity, not perfection.

Any practical advice for teams starting their data journey?

Use canvases (like Roman Pichler’s product canvas), document what you don’t know, and follow the clues your data reveals. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Chapters and Time Stamps

[00:00] – Welcome & Introduction

Greg welcomes Carlo and frames the episode around data in L&D.

[02:35] – Carlo’s Career Journey

From HSBC to GSK: how Carlo blends ops and L&D.

[05:01] – Why Data Deserves a Bigger Role in Learning

Why it’s more than just a one-off step in the process.

[07:53] – Storytelling, Surveys & Sentiment Analysis

Data now includes unstructured insights and AI-powered processing.

[11:41] – Performance Consulting & Asking the Right Questions

Where to start when someone says “we have a problem.”

[14:29] – Using Personas & Real-World Testing

Why personas matter and when they don’t.

[21:40] – Dealing with Data Overload

How to avoid drowning in spreadsheets and conflicting opinions.

[29:18] – Are Personas Divisive in Design Thinking?

Why Carlo takes a balanced view on their role.

[34:53] – Quick Data Tactics That Work

Polls, WhatsApp groups, and ChatGPT as everyday tools.

[39:11] – How Far Back Should You Track Data?

The ROI timeline for leadership and long-form learning.

[46:09] – Measuring Behaviour Change & Learning Impact

How programs can evolve from theory to real results.

[53:41] – Justifying Learning’s Existence

If your team vanished, would anyone notice?

[56:01] – Final Tips & Free Tools

Carlo’s practical advice for teams getting started with data.

About the Podcast

Product Design for Learning is where strategy meets storytelling in the world of learning design. Hosted by Greg Arthur, the podcast dives into real conversations with industry leaders who are shaping how learning happens in the modern workplace. Each episode blends product thinking, user experience, and learning innovation to help you design smarter and scale faster.

Episode Summary

In this episode of Product Design for Learning, host Greg Arthur sits down with Andrew Welsh, Director of Digital Learning Solutions at Instinct, a specialist L&D recruitment agency. Together, they explore the evolving recruitment landscape within Learning & Development, covering topics such as market shifts, AI's role in hiring, and the growing demand for data-driven skills. Whether you're a candidate navigating a competitive market or an employer seeking to attract top talent, this conversation is packed with actionable insights and trends you need to know for 2025.

Guest Profile

Andrew Welsh is a veteran in L&D recruitment, marking 14 years with Instinct, a Manchester-based, employee-owned agency specializing in digital learning and education-focused roles. His expertise spans interim and permanent hiring across the UK, with a growing footprint in the US and Europe. Known for his honest, people-first approach, Andrew brings a wealth of knowledge to this in-depth discussion on recruitment trends and challenges in L&D.

Key Take-Aways

• The market has shifted from a talent-scarce boom in 2021–2022 to a more competitive candidate-heavy environment in 2024–2025.
• 
  
• Permanent roles are down, with a significant increase in interim and contract-based hiring.
• 
  
• AI skills and data literacy are rising in importance, but true implementation across L&D is still lagging.
• 
  
• Remote roles increase competition, expanding applicant pools beyond local regions.
• 
  
• Recruiter ghosting and inconsistent job titles remain industry pain points.
• 
  
• Portfolios are essential for L&D designers and increasingly important for strategic roles.
• 
  
• IR35 and gig economy regulations continue to influence hiring decisions.
• 
  

Questions Asked During the Episode

What has 14 years in L&D recruitment taught you?

Andrew shares how L&D has remained a personable, tight-knit sector with a community feel. He reflects on the post-lockdown hiring boom and the sudden market reversal in 2023 due to economic uncertainty.

How do you handle inconsistent job titles and salary ranges in job ads?

Andrew explains how recruiters dig deeper through vacancy consultations to reframe roles accurately and why salary transparency is crucial for both attraction and fairness.

Where do you stand on tasks or case studies during recruitment?

He distinguishes between reasonable tasks for permanent roles and the problematic nature of unpaid tasks for contractors, emphasizing value for time and fairness.

Is it currently an employer's market?

Yes—candidates must now work harder to stand out, as competition has increased and hiring processes have become more demanding.

Why are recruiters ghosting more frequently?

Andrew admits volume is a factor but stresses the importance of communication, especially post-interview, and outlines what Instinct does to avoid ghosting.

What trends are emerging in the L&D recruitment market?

A heavy shift toward contract roles (up to 84%) as organizations navigate headcount freezes and project-based needs. AI and data skills are becoming more requested, though adoption varies.

How has political and economic uncertainty affected recruitment?

While elections don't bring immediate certainty, post-budget clarity helps businesses plan hiring. Andrew notes reactions to economic policies play a bigger role than policies themselves.

What role is AI playing in hiring and L&D?

Mentions of AI tools in job specs are increasing, but widespread adoption is slow. Compliance-based eLearning may be automated first, while AI's long-term impact on roles is still unfolding.

What skills are in demand for 2025?

Data literacy is gaining ground, with many roles expecting basic data skills rather than dedicated data scientists. Portfolios for learning designers are now expected, not optional.

What’s the ideal CV length and format?

Keep it under five pages, with clear role context, platform names, and keyword matches. CVs should tell a compelling story and align with job requirements.

Any advice for candidates and employers in 2025?

Candidates should build strong portfolios and tailor CVs with market-relevant keywords. Employers should pay fair market rates and focus on long-term retention strategies to avoid hiring stopgaps.

Chapters and Time Stamps

[00:00] – Welcome and Guest Introduction

Greg introduces Andrew Welsh and frames the discussion on L&D recruitment.

[02:42] – Biggest Takeaways from 14 Years in L&D Recruitment

Andrew reflects on market cycles and the current climate.

[06:18] – The Job Title and Salary Challenge

How inconsistent titles confuse candidates—and what recruiters can do.

[08:00] – Case Studies and Tasks: Fair or Not?

Where they belong in the process and the time-value consideration.

[10:32] – Is It an Employer's Market Now?

Why candidates must adapt to increased competition.

[11:51] – The Rise of Ghosting in Recruitment

Greg raises concerns and Andrew outlines Instinct’s feedback policy.

[14:11] – Market Trends: Past, Present, and Future

Permanent hiring is down; contract roles are surging.

[17:44] – Political & Economic Impacts on Hiring

Andrew discusses the post-election and post-budget landscape.

[21:34] – Has Hybrid Work Increased Role Competition?

Remote flexibility brings more applicants, adding complexity.

[23:07] – Is the Gig Economy Here to Stay?

A look at IR35, legislation risks, and contractor demand.

[28:41] – Are AI Skills Being Overhyped or Undervalued?

Why AI appears in job specs but real-world use remains limited.

[35:50] – What Skills Will Shape 2025?

The rising importance of data competency in L&D.

[39:23] – CV Tips: What Do Recruiters Actually Look For?

Length, content, and structure tips for standing out.

[41:01] – Final Advice for Candidates and Employers

Portfolios, salary benchmarking, and how to avoid short-term hiring traps.

[43:07] – Where to Meet Instinct in Person

Instinct will be at the Learning Technologies Exhibition in April 2025.

About the Podcast

Product Design for Learning is a podcast where design meets strategy in the world of workplace learning. Hosted by Greg Arthur, each episode explores how thoughtful design, technology, and recruitment intersect to shape better learning experiences in organizations. Whether you’re an L&D professional, hiring manager, or just curious about how learning gets built in the workplace, this show offers fresh insights and expert voices to help you stay ahead.

Episode Summary

In this episode of the Product Design for Learning podcast, host Greg Arthur sits down with Tom McDowall, Chair of The Learning Network, to dive deep into the "Understand" phase of the product design process. Tom explains why this phase is critical, sharing practical advice and strategies on assumption mapping, stakeholder engagement, and data analysis. Listeners gain insights into balancing fact and assumption, managing risk, and ensuring that learning solutions genuinely address performance challenges rather than merely looking engaging.

Guest Profile

Tom McDowall is the Chair of The Learning Network and a seasoned expert in learning design and product strategy. Known for his candid and pragmatic approach, Tom brings years of experience in tackling real-world performance issues through thorough research and data-driven methodologies. With a reputation for challenging the status quo, his insights help organisations move beyond superficial solutions to create impactful learning experiences.

Key Take-Aways

How would you summarise the "Understand" phase in 60 seconds?

• Tom stresses that the "Understand" phase is the most crucial step in the design process. It sets the foundation for all subsequent phases, and if done incorrectly, nothing else matters. He highlights that this stage involves rigorously examining assumptions and real facts, and the phase must be approached without shortcuts to mitigate unnecessary risk.

What is assumption mapping and why is it important?

• Assumption mapping involves breaking down a client’s request into facts and assumptions. Tom uses this tool to clarify which parts of the brief are evidence-based and which are speculative. This clarity prevents the design process from veering off course and helps in making informed decisions that address genuine business risks.

How do you deal with stakeholder pushback?

• Tom explains that pushback often comes in the form of pressure over deadlines and budgets. He advises identifying who truly controls these aspects (budget holders, timeline setters, and key decision-makers) to build alliances. Engaging those who may even disagree initially can provide a more realistic picture of the workplace and improve the overall output.

How do you balance individual work with team collaboration during the "Understand" phase?

• Tom emphasises the value of interacting directly with stakeholders and end users. While solo work can lead to faster ideas, it risks missing crucial feedback. He recommends a mix of interviews, roundtable discussions, and group activities to challenge assumptions and enhance understanding, ensuring the process is inclusive and reflective of real-world conditions.

What challenges and joys do you experience during this phase?

• Tom loves the early stages of gathering data through interviews and fieldwork but admits that analysing the data can be a tedious task. He suggests that delegating data analysis to someone who enjoys it, or using technological tools to assist, can help maintain momentum without compromising the quality of insights.

How do you ensure your analysis communicates value?

• Effective data visualisation is critical. Tom argues that good visualisations should tell a story that stakeholders can understand at a glance—not just a collection of graphs. By clearly demonstrating the impact of potential risks and the benefits of informed decisions, you can secure stakeholder buy-in and move the project forward.

What advice do you have for someone struggling with the "Understand" phase?

• Tom advises not to stress about perfection; incremental improvement is key. Start by distinguishing between facts and assumptions and use that as a basis for further exploration. Even if you only conduct a few quick interviews, share your findings and adjust based on feedback. The goal is to build a robust foundation that informs the rest of the project.

Chapters and Time Stamps

[00:01] – Introduction and Guest Welcome

• Greg Arthur introduces Tom McDowall, highlighting his role as Chair of The Learning Network and teasing the focus on the "Understand" phase of the product design process.

[01:00] – The Critical Nature of the "Understand" Phase

• Tom summarises the importance of the "Understand" phase in under 60 seconds, stressing that a solid understanding is essential to prevent costly risks and errors later in the process.

[02:18] – Managing Predefined Understand Phases and Risk

• Discussion on how to handle clients who come in with preset ideas. Tom explains his approach to risk management by questioning assumptions and reinforcing the need for proper data gathering.

[04:04] – Navigating Stakeholder Pushback

• Tom details common pushbacks from stakeholders—such as tight deadlines and budget constraints—and how he leverages direct conversations with key decision-makers to clarify project objectives.

[06:16] – Starting the "Understand" Phase: Assumption Mapping

• An in-depth look at assumption mapping: its purpose, the process, and how it helps to differentiate between facts and assumptions early in the project.

[07:42] – The Role of Data and Collaboration in the Understand Phase

• Tom discusses the balance between working solo and collaborating with stakeholders, highlighting the risks of isolation and the benefits of engaging multiple perspectives.

[10:11] – Addressing the Love-Hate Relationship with Data Analysis

• Tom reveals his personal challenges with data analysis and the strategies he uses to overcome them, including hiring specialists and leveraging technology.

[16:56] – Visualising Data for Impactful Communication

• A discussion on the power of data visualisation and how effective visuals can translate complex data into actionable insights for stakeholders.

[22:00] – Identifying Key Stakeholders to Involve

• Tom explains the importance of involving the right stakeholders—especially those who are critical or even sceptical—to obtain an accurate representation of the workplace environment.

[28:00] – Measuring L&D Success Beyond Popularity Metrics

• The conversation shifts to performance metrics, emphasising that true success is measured by performance improvement rather than superficial popularity scores.

[40:21] – Debunking the Myth of Short Attention Spans

• A debate on whether learning content must be short and flashy, with Tom arguing for the necessity of deeper engagement and meaningful content to drive performance improvements.

[47:08] – Historical Perspectives on Performance Improvement

• Tom reflects on lessons from past decades, particularly from Thomas Gilbert's Human Competence, and discusses the need to focus on environmental fixes rather than over-relying on training.

[52:39] – Final Advice for Tackling the "Understand" Phase

• Tom offers practical tips for those struggling with the "Understand" phase, recommending incremental progress, careful assumption mapping, and continuous stakeholder engagement.

[56:15] – Plugs and Closing Thoughts

• Tom invites listeners to connect with him on LinkedIn and check out his YouTube channel, Instructional Design Tips, for more insights on L&D and product design.

About the Podcast

Product Design for Learning is a podcast that explores how product design principles can transform learning and development. Hosted by Greg Arthur, the podcast features deep-dive discussions with industry experts, practical insights, and strategic advice to help organisations create effective, human-centred learning solutions. Subscribe for regular episodes that blend cutting-edge product design with the latest trends in L&D.

Episode Summary

In this episode of the Product Design for Learning podcast, host Greg Arthur is joined by Charlie Kneen from Solvd Together to discuss human-centred design for a skills-first transformation. They explore the realities of skills-based organisations, the pitfalls of traditional competency frameworks, and how businesses can genuinely embed skills-first approaches.

Charlie shares his perspective on why many organisations are missing the mark with skills strategies, the importance of outcome-driven design, and how experience design can drive real behavioural change. They also tackle common challenges in workplace learning, the role of leadership, and how human-centred design can be applied at scale to shift organisational culture.

Guest Profile

Charlie Kneen is a learning strategist and human-centred design advocate at Solved Together, a consultancy focused on solving business challenges through innovative design thinking. Charlie is passionate about rethinking traditional approaches to skills development, challenging the status quo in learning and development (L&D), and designing experiences that create lasting impact.

Key Takeaways

What is a skills-first transformation, and why does it matter?

• Many organisations are rebranding traditional competency frameworks as "skills strategies" without changing their approach.
• A true skills-first organisation requires fundamental shifts in strategy, rather than just new tech or frameworks.
• Human-centred design helps companies rethink their approach by focusing on outcomes, not just structures.

How do skills, competencies, and tasks differ?

• Competencies are often compound skills that vary in different contexts, making them difficult to measure effectively.
• A task-first approach focuses on what people need to do rather than broad, vague skills.
• Businesses should start with strategic goals, then work backwards to define the skills that drive those outcomes.

Why are traditional skills strategies failing?

• Many organisations invest heavily in complex competency frameworks that don’t get used.
• There’s an overreliance on tech-based solutions that don't address the core challenges of skill-building.
• A skills-based organisation should be social and dynamic, rather than a rigid framework applied from the top down.

How can organisations shift to a human-centred design approach?

• Start with the end goal: What is the business trying to achieve? Then design backwards.
• Prioritise real-world experiences over theoretical learning. Simulating real challenges leads to more effective learning.
• Adopt an outcome-driven design mindset: rather than focusing on content, focus on the experiences that will drive behavioural change.

How can large organisations embed human-centred design at scale?

• Organisational change requires both top-down leadership buy-in and bottom-up employee engagement.
• Different teams and individuals may need different learning experiences to achieve the same overall transformation.
• Tracking data continuously, rather than relying on outdated pulse surveys, helps businesses stay agile in their learning strategies.

Chapters and Timestamps

[00:00] – Introduction to the Episode

• Greg Arthur introduces Charlie Kneen and the topic of human-centred design in a skills-first transformation.

[00:55] – What Does Skills-First Really Mean?

• Charlie challenges the idea that most companies are truly skills-based.
• The difference between competencies, skills, and tasks.

[02:38] – The Problem with Competency Frameworks

• Why traditional approaches fail to deliver meaningful skill development.
• The role of outcome-driven design in making learning effective.

[07:21] – The Two Camps in L&D

• One group believes L&D is dying, while another believes it’s thriving.
• How skills-first transformation is being used as a buzzword in both conversations.

[13:08] – How Do You Convince Stakeholders to Shift Mindsets?

• How Solved Together helps organisations embrace strategic transformation.
• The importance of working with clients who already align with human-centred design principles.

[18:24] – Why Experience Design is Crucial for Behavioural Change

• The difference between knowledge transfer and true learning through experience.
• Real-world examples of how experience design creates stronger learning outcomes.

[25:00] – Scaling Human-Centred Design in Large Organisations

• How large businesses can implement human-centred approaches without overwhelming their workforce.
• The importance of removing barriers rather than just introducing new frameworks.

[32:37] – The Role of Data in Learning & Performance

• Why businesses need to move beyond one-off surveys and adopt continuous data tracking.
• How employee experiences provide more valuable insight than traditional L&D reporting.

[47:17] – The Future of Human-Centred Design in L&D

• Will anything truly change in L&D by 2035?
• Why many companies will still be making the same mistakes in a decade’s time.

[53:07] – Practical Steps to Get Started with Human-Centred Design

• Redefining what L&D is truly there to do.
• Tracking time and resources to ensure learning interventions are strategic and impactful.

[55:10] – Final Thoughts & Where to Learn More

• Charlie shares details about Solved Together’s Learning Labs and upcoming industry events.

About the Podcast

Product Design for Learning is a podcast dedicated to exploring how product design principles can enhance learning experiences. Hosted by Greg Arthur, the podcast features conversations with experts in learning design, product strategy, and experience design, offering insights on how to create more impactful, human-centred learning solutions.

🎧 Subscribe to the podcast for more discussions on innovation in learning and development!

Episode Summary

In Episode 10 of the Product Design for Learning podcast, host Greg Arthur engages in a deep conversation with Nick Petch, a design-based researcher with over 20 years of experience in learning, strategy, and systems thinking. Together, they explore the intersections of innovation, learning ecosystems, and service design, challenging traditional approaches to L&D. Nick shares insights on how learning needs to shift from content delivery to fostering environments of experimentation, dialogue, and incremental innovation. The episode dives into the philosophical and practical aspects of designing for learning in complex systems, with plenty of real-world examples and thought-provoking concepts.

Guest Profile

Nick Petch is a multi-disciplinary designer and researcher whose work spans learning, design strategy, and systems thinking. Nick’s career has focused on building adaptive learning ecosystems that thrive in complex environments. He is passionate about applying innovation to service and product design, creating solutions that enable learning to happen naturally within work systems rather than as a separate entity.

Key Takeaways

What does innovation mean in learning design?

• Innovation in learning is context-dependent. Without understanding the ecology of a system—whether organizational, cultural, or societal—true innovation is not possible.
• The focus should shift from large-scale solutions to small, incremental experiments that build "big ripples."

Why is service design critical for learning?

• Learning and service design intersect in creating environments where learning emerges naturally.
• Effective learning isn't about standalone content but about embedding permission, opportunity, and motivation into the workplace environment.

How can research unlock innovation?

• Research fosters a relationship with the learning context, allowing designers to work with the system rather than imposing fixes.
• Storytelling and narrative-based research are powerful tools for understanding what drives real change in a learning ecosystem.

What’s the role of leadership in learning ecosystems?

• Leadership plays a vital role in modeling entrepreneurial attitudes toward learning.
• Managers who create low-risk opportunities for experimentation help establish a culture where learning is an integral part of work.

Why is the current L&D model insufficient?

• L&D often focuses on volume and compliance instead of meaningful learning outcomes.
• Much of the content delivered is "authoritative knowledge written yesterday," which doesn’t adapt to the emergent and dynamic needs of learners.

How can organizations foster a learning culture?

• Organizations should focus on systemic changes like job-task-based learning and monitoring behaviors instead of retrospective analysis.
• Providing permission for employees to experiment, fail, and reflect can lead to significant long-term growth.

What does the future of learning look like?

• Learning will become more integrated into systems through narrative-driven approaches, real-time feedback, and even AI-driven apprenticeships.
• The focus will shift from creating content to designing environments that amplify signals of learning while dampening barriers.

Chapters and Time Stamps

[00:00] – Introduction

Greg introduces Nick Petch and the theme of the episode: innovation and systems thinking in learning design.

[00:40] – Nick’s Background and Philosophy

Nick shares his background in design-based research and why he sees learning as a systems-level challenge.

[02:38] – Defining Innovation in Learning

Nick explains how innovation depends on understanding the system in which learning occurs, using small experiments as a way to test impact.

[04:53] – Where is Innovation Happening?

The conversation dives into where innovation occurs today, with examples ranging from generative AI to service-level design.

[12:30] – The Role of Research in Learning

Nick elaborates on how research builds a relationship with the learning context, enabling real, actionable innovation.

[19:00] – Breaking Rules to Foster Learning

Greg and Nick explore the balance between rules and innovation, emphasizing the need to disrupt routines for true learning to emerge.

[28:00] – Job Tasks and Continuous Monitoring

Nick introduces the idea of job-task-based learning as a way to track progress and adapt learning in real time.

[40:00] – Marginal Gains and Systemic Change

Using examples from cycling, Nick illustrates how small adjustments can lead to significant improvements in performance and learning.

[53:00] – Narrative-Driven Approaches to Learning

The conversation shifts to how stories and narrative research can create visible changes in organizational systems.

[01:05:00] – Designing for the Social Age

Nick discusses how the shift from product-focused to experience-focused design reflects broader changes in society.

[01:15:00] – The Future of Learning

From AI-driven tools to cognitive apprenticeships, Nick shares his vision for how learning might evolve in the next decade.

[01:40:00] – Final Thoughts

Greg and Nick wrap up with a discussion on lifelong learning and the importance of embedding learning into work environments.

About the Podcast

The Product Design for Learning (PDFL) podcast explores how design principles can transform learning experiences. Hosted by Greg Arthur, the show features in-depth conversations with thought leaders in learning, innovation, and product design to uncover actionable insights for L&D professionals.

Subscribe and Follow the Podcast to stay updated on new episodes!

Episode Summary

In Episode 9 of the Product Design for Learning podcast, host Greg Arthur sits down with Laurie Barton, a learning product designer and community-led advocate, to discuss the concept of "building in public" and its transformative impact on learning products. Laurie shares insights into how engaging with communities and involving end-users throughout the product lifecycle can lead to more effective, authentic, and purpose-driven learning experiences. They also delve into the challenges, opportunities, and lessons learned when designing educational products collaboratively with stakeholders and learners.

Guest Profile

Laurie Barton is an expert in learning product design and community-driven approaches. She currently works at The Alliance, where she oversees the development of certifications and learning products with a community-led go-to-market strategy. With a background in EdTech and customer success, Laurie is passionate about bridging the gap between users' real-world needs and the learning solutions they engage with.

Key Takeaways

What does "building in public" mean for learning products?

Laurie defines building in public as involving the community and end-users throughout the design process to create learning products that are truly impactful. This approach ensures learning solutions are relevant, user-friendly, and capable of driving real-world application.

Why don’t more L&D teams adopt a product design mindset?

• Many learning teams fail to see themselves as product teams.
• Stakeholders often prioritize deadlines or preconceived ideas over audience needs.
• The disconnect between intention and implementation often results in underwhelming learning experiences.

What are the benefits of a community-led approach?

• Creates more authentic learning products by integrating real-world user experiences.
• Builds advocacy and trust by involving users early and often.
• Encourages continuous improvement through user feedback and iteration.

How do you decide what to include in your learning product?

Laurie explains how The Alliance balances user feedback, market research, and competitive intelligence to prioritize the most impactful content. They aim for users to leave with actionable skills they can apply immediately in their roles.

How does "building in public" help during MVP testing?

• Trusted focus groups or ambassadors are key for pre-launch refinement.
• Iteration with smaller cohorts prevents an overwhelming flood of opinions.
• Community involvement in testing ensures relevance and builds advocates for the final product.

What lessons has Laurie learned about building in public?

1. The Power of Community: Engage your audience to co-create impactful products.
2. Let Go of Being the Expert: Facilitate learning rather than dictating it.
3. Iteration Builds Trust: Embrace feedback and adapt continuously to create better experiences.

Chapters and Time Stamps

[00:00] – Introduction

Greg welcomes Laurie Barton to the podcast and introduces the topic of building learning products in public.

[00:30] – Defining "Building in Public" for Learning Products

Laurie explains what building in public means and why it’s crucial for designing impactful learning experiences.

[02:20] – Why Laurie Embraces This Approach

Laurie shares her career journey and how her background in customer success informs her product-led approach to learning.

[05:14] – Getting to the "Aha" Moment

Greg and Laurie discuss the importance of delivering learning products that create trust and deliver quick, actionable wins.

[07:41] – The Role of Community in Product Design

Laurie highlights how The Alliance uses community-led go-to-market strategies to co-create learning experiences.

[12:30] – Differentiating Wants and Needs

Laurie explains how to balance user input with practical product design considerations to avoid feature bloat.

[19:00] – Formats, Features, and Functionality

The conversation shifts to how formats and learning objectives influence product design, using real-world examples like Duolingo and Monzo.

[28:00] – Lessons from Everyday Products

Laurie and Greg explore how lessons from consumer products, like iPhones and Shazam, can apply to learning products.

[39:00] – The Power of Iteration and Feedback

Laurie discusses how continuous iteration based on feedback keeps learning products relevant and impactful.

[53:00] – Final Takeaways

Laurie shares her top three lessons learned from building in public and emphasizes the importance of community engagement and flexibility.

About the Podcast

The Product Design for Learning (PDFL) podcast explores the intersection of product design, learning, and innovation. Hosted by Greg Arthur, each episode dives into practical strategies, real-world examples, and expert insights to help L&D professionals create more engaging and effective learning experiences.

Subscribe and Follow the Podcast to stay updated on the latest episodes.

Episode Summary

In this insightful episode of the Product Design for Learning (PDFL) Podcast, host Greg Arthur welcomes Alice Thompson, Development Partner at M&S. Together, they explore the intricacies of marketing and releasing learning products within a global organization. Alice shares her expertise in training international teams and emphasizes the importance of storytelling, audience understanding, and relationship building in effective learning product promotion.

Guest Profile

Alice Thompson serves as a Development Partner at M&S, focusing on the international side of the business. With years of experience in learning and development, Alice is passionate about designing efficient training systems, leveraging internal expertise, and addressing the unique challenges of delivering high-quality learning experiences in diverse global markets.

Key Takeaways

• Think Like a Marketer Early On: Start considering your audience and marketing strategy from the initial stages of product design.
• Storytelling as a Superpower: Craft compelling narratives to make your learning initiatives resonate and drive engagement.
• Leverage Data and Insights: Use audience behavior and feedback to refine your approach continually.
• Build Relationships: Networking and maintaining open dialogue with stakeholders are key to understanding needs and building trust.
• Test and Iterate: Start small, gather feedback, and scale up effective ideas.

Questions Explored in This Episode

"Can you explain your role as a Development Partner at M&S?"

Alice outlines her work with global teams to create efficient training methods. She emphasizes collaboration with franchise partners and owned markets to address challenges in delivering a consistent customer experience.

"Why is the market and release phase so critical?"

Alice highlights this phase as the bridge between strategy and execution, focusing on delivering relevant content through the right channels to the right people.

"What are common mistakes in L&D marketing?"

Alice reflects on her early missteps, such as overloading audiences without understanding their needs, and stresses the value of relationship building and audience alignment.

"How can storytelling improve learning product marketing?"

Alice explains how storytelling can create emotional connections and communicate the value of learning initiatives effectively.

"What advice do you have for someone starting in this phase?"

Alice recommends understanding your audience, leveraging the right channels, and continuously learning from both successes and failures.

Chapters and Time Stamps

[00:00] – Introduction to the Episode

Greg introduces Alice and sets the stage for a conversation about marketing and releasing learning products.

[01:04] – Alice’s Role at M&S

Alice explains her work with international teams and the skills required to deliver impactful learning globally.

[03:46] – The Importance of Market and Release

Alice discusses why this phase is essential for ensuring learning initiatives succeed.

[07:00] – Audience Insights and Challenges in L&D

A deep dive into the value of understanding audience needs and habits.

[17:18] – Tips for Marketing Learning Products

Alice offers practical advice for professionals new to the market and release phase.

[36:33] – Lessons from Past Mistakes

Alice shares a candid account of a marketing misstep and the lessons learned.

[43:47] – Tools and Techniques for Success

Alice reveals her go-to tools and methods for effective learning product promotion.

[53:25] – Closing Thoughts

Greg and Alice wrap up the conversation, inviting listeners to connect and share their thoughts.

About the Podcast

The Product Design for Learning (PDFL) Podcast explores the intersection of design, technology, and learning. Hosted by Greg Arthur, the podcast features industry experts who share their insights, experiences, and strategies to help listeners create impactful learning solutions. Whether you're a seasoned L&D professional or just starting out, this podcast is your guide to navigating the ever-evolving landscape of learning and development.

Connect with Alice Thompson on LinkedIn to continue the conversation about L&D innovation and strategies!

Episode Summary

In Episode 7 of the Product Design for Learning Podcast, host Greg Arthur welcomes David James, Chief Learning Officer at 360Learning and host of The Learning and Development Podcast. The episode dives deep into the concept of "Leadership in Learning," exploring how L&D professionals can move beyond process-driven approaches to become strategic partners driving real impact within organizations. David shares insights on redefining leadership in L&D, addressing skills gaps, and combating the "conspiracy of convenience" that undermines the function's potential.

Guest Profile

David James is a seasoned L&D leader with over 25 years of experience. As Chief Learning Officer at 360Learning, he focuses on enabling organizations to close skills gaps effectively. He also hosts the popular Learning and Development Podcast, where he engages with thought leaders to challenge conventional approaches and inspire transformation in the industry.

Key Takeaways

• Leadership in Learning: True leadership in L&D requires recognizing the limitations of the status quo and driving change toward impactful practices that align with organizational goals.
• "Conspiracy of Convenience": The entrenched status quo often leads to ineffective learning programs. Breaking this cycle requires L&D leaders to challenge stakeholders and push for meaningful change.
• Purpose-Driven L&D: Defining a clear purpose and aligning strategies with organizational priorities is essential for building credibility and achieving results.
• Earning Credibility: Unlike other C-suite roles, L&D leaders must actively prove their worth through measurable impact, moving beyond popularity metrics.
• Future of L&D: The shift toward skills-based learning and internal mobility highlights the importance of proactive, strategic L&D leadership to address evolving workplace demands.

Questions Asked

What does "leadership in learning" mean to you?

David emphasizes that leadership in L&D is about moving beyond the expected and requested roles to set a vision that inspires stakeholders. It involves recognizing where the organization is, knowing what needs to be done, and taking strategic actions to benefit employees, teams, and the company.

What are common barriers to implementing impactful L&D strategies?

David introduces the concept of the "conspiracy of convenience," where stakeholders cling to ineffective models like traditional training because they’re easy to understand and implement. Breaking this pattern requires courage, analysis, and a willingness to challenge the norm.

Why is L&D often seen as a "popular but not credible" function?

David explains that many L&D functions focus on popularity metrics—like attendance and satisfaction surveys—that don’t demonstrate true impact. To earn credibility, L&D must focus on measurable outcomes such as skills development and business results.

What differentiates successful L&D leaders?

Successful leaders redefine their role by building partnerships, focusing on skills development, and aligning their strategies with organizational goals. Persistence, strategic consulting, and influencing stakeholders are key traits of impactful leaders.

How can L&D professionals overcome execution challenges?

David suggests starting with self-reflection on purpose and assessing organizational readiness. L&D professionals should focus on areas they can influence, use data to measure success, and communicate their impact to stakeholders effectively.

Chapters and Time Stamps

[00:00] – Welcome and Introduction

Greg introduces the episode theme and guest, David James, highlighting his work at 360Learning and The Learning and Development Podcast.

[00:49] – Defining Leadership in Learning

David explains leadership in L&D as the ability to challenge expectations, set a compelling vision, and bring stakeholders along on the journey.

[03:17] – Barriers to Effective L&D

Discussion on the "conspiracy of convenience" and why traditional training models fail to deliver meaningful outcomes.

[07:24] – Credibility in L&D

Exploration of why L&D is often seen as a cost center and how to shift perceptions through impact-driven strategies.

[15:51] – Addressing the Skills Crisis

David outlines the growing importance of closing skills gaps and why traditional methods are insufficient.

[27:26] – Elements of Leadership in L&D

A breakdown of key components of leadership, including purpose, influence, and aligning with organizational goals.

[44:32] – Why David Stays in L&D

David shares his passion for L&D and belief in the profession’s potential to drive transformative change.

[48:26] – Advice for Aspiring L&D Leaders

Tips for self-assessment, focusing on impact, and navigating execution challenges in leadership roles.

About the Podcast

The Product Design for Learning Podcast explores the intersection of design, learning, and innovation. Hosted by Greg Arthur, each episode features leading thinkers and practitioners who share actionable insights to shape the future of learning and development. Subscribe for expert discussions, practical advice, and transformative ideas.

Don’t miss this inspiring conversation with David James—an essential listen for anyone looking to elevate their L&D leadership game!

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Episode Summary

In this episode of The Product Design for Learning Podcast, host Greg Arthur delves into the nuances of production with Matt Ash, founder of Changeably and a seasoned expert in learning design. Together, they explore how to streamline production processes while maintaining creativity and quality, even when faced with challenging projects like compliance training. Matt shares lessons from his career, including award-winning projects and insights on balancing innovation with client expectations.

Guest Profile

Matt Ash is a consultant, strategist, and founder of Changeably. With a background in learning design, Matt has spearheaded creative, award-winning projects, including films recognized at the Cannes Corporate Film Festival and New York Film Festival. He is an advocate for using agile methodologies in learning design to improve efficiency and elevate content quality.

Key Takeaways

• Balancing Creativity and Structure: Production thrives on creative freedom but demands clear scope, deadlines, and budget to avoid pitfalls.
• Client Collaboration: Effective communication and stakeholder involvement at every stage are key to navigating changes and ensuring alignment with project goals.
• Agile Production: Iterative approaches, rooted in discovery and regular review, can prevent scope creep and enhance output quality.
• Challenging Compliance Norms: Even compliance projects can be engaging and innovative when approached with an audience-focused mindset.

Questions Explored

Who is Matt Ash, and what’s his approach to production in learning design?

Matt shared his journey from creating early-stage e-learning to scaling an agency team and pioneering agile methodologies. His production philosophy focuses on consistency, audience-centric creativity, and aligning with business goals.

How do you manage a multidisciplinary production team?

Matt discussed the importance of giving filmmakers, developers, and designers creative freedom while aligning their outputs with project goals. This approach fosters innovation even in traditionally rigid fields like compliance.

How can compliance learning be exciting and impactful?

Using an audience-centric approach, Matt transformed compliance content into compelling narratives, earning prestigious awards. His work exemplifies how purpose-driven storytelling can elevate even the most mundane subjects.

What are the essential pre-production elements for success?

Matt emphasized the need for clearly defined scope, deadlines, and budgets. He advised conducting a robust discovery phase and identifying key goals to prevent misalignment during production.

How do you handle mid-production changes?

Flexibility and open communication are crucial. Matt shared how referencing agreed-upon goals and involving all stakeholders early on helps mitigate costly scope creep.

What advice would you give to someone struggling with production?

Matt recommended following the same structured processes you advise clients to use—pausing to reflect, sharing challenges, and seeking alternative perspectives to resolve issues effectively.

Chapters and Time Stamps

[00:00] – Introduction

Greg introduces Matt Ash and the episode’s focus on the art and science of production in learning design.

[01:34] – Matt Ash’s Journey

Matt recounts his career highlights, including agile experimentation and managing award-winning creative teams.

[04:43] – Making Compliance Creative

The shift from dull compliance content to engaging, award-winning films is explored.

[09:32] – Overcoming Creative Challenges with Clients

Matt shares strategies for bringing clients on board with innovative production ideas.

[15:54] – Essential Pre-Production Elements

A discussion on scope, deadlines, and budgets as the cornerstones of successful production.

[24:20] – Handling Changes Mid-Production

Greg and Matt exchange insights on managing client-driven changes during production.

[35:44] – Final Advice for Production Success

Matt’s key takeaway: stop, reflect, and follow your established processes.

About the Podcast

The Product Design for Learning Podcast is hosted by Greg Arthur and focuses on the intersection of design, production, and learning. Each episode features industry experts who share actionable insights on creating impactful learning experiences. Whether you're a designer, strategist, or educator, this podcast will guide you in crafting innovative and effective solutions.

Episode Summary

In this episode of the Product Design for Learning Podcast, host Greg Arthur sits down with Jess Andrews, a seasoned learning and development professional with experience on both the agency and in-house sides of the table. Jess shares insights into the nuanced relationships between agencies and internal teams, the challenges of making an impact in learning and development (L&D), and how to foster collaboration for successful projects.

Guest Profile

Jess Andrews

Jess is a learning and development expert who recently transitioned to an in-house role at Multiverse after an impactful career working agency-side. She brings a wealth of experience in managing creative projects, building strong client relationships, and implementing innovative L&D solutions.

Key Takeaways

Why Do Internal Learning Teams Use External Agencies?

• Logistical Support: Small teams often need help with scalability and quick turnarounds.
• Creativity and Industry Expertise: Agencies bring fresh ideas, innovative solutions, and cross-industry insights.

Differences Between Agency and In-House Work

• Agency Work: Offers end-to-end control and responsibility but can be overwhelming due to multitasking.
• In-House Work: Requires letting go of control in some areas and focusing on influencing internal stakeholders.

What Makes an Agency-In-House Relationship Successful?

• Clear Communication: Regular check-ins and transparent discussions about goals and challenges.
• Relationship Building: Understanding each other's work styles and stress points fosters collaboration.
• Alignment on Goals: Both parties must be clear about the ultimate objectives to avoid misaligned priorities.

Challenges in Achieving Impact

• Misalignment on goals or poor initial scoping can derail projects.
• Agencies need to balance challenging their clients with respecting internal constraints.

Chapters and Time Stamps

[00:00] – Introduction

Greg Arthur introduces the podcast and welcomes Jess Andrews to discuss the relationship between internal teams and agencies.

[04:30] – Why Internal Teams Use Agencies

Jess explains the dual reasons of logistical support and creative innovation for seeking external help.

[07:20] – Transitioning from Agency to In-House

Jess shares her experiences adjusting to the in-house mindset and managing internal stakeholders.

[14:24] – Building a Successful Agency-In-House Relationship

Discussion on the importance of understanding communication styles, stressors, and shared goals.

[22:05] – What Does It Mean to Make an Impact?

Jess highlights the role of agencies in helping organizations achieve quick, measurable outcomes.

[25:09] – When Agency Use Can Hinder Goals

Exploration of how poor scoping and internal biases can undermine a project’s success.

[33:15] – Managing Differing Opinions and Data Conflicts

Jess and Greg share strategies for reconciling conflicting recommendations between teams.

[42:59] – Advice for Agencies and Internal Teams

Jess offers practical advice for strengthening collaboration and overcoming challenges.

[47:41] – The Future of Agencies and Internal Teams

Jess speculates on evolving dynamics, including potential synergies with contractors and the growing marriage of design and learning.

About the Podcast

The Product Design for Learning Podcast delves into the art and science of designing impactful learning solutions. Each episode features industry experts who share their perspectives on the latest trends, challenges, and strategies in the L&D field. Whether you’re an in-house professional or part of an agency, this podcast offers actionable insights to elevate your projects.

Episode Summary

In this episode of the Product Design For Learning Podcast, host Greg Arthur sits down with Patrick Mullarkey, Senior Leadership Development Manager at Staffbase, to discuss the pivotal role of Minimum Viable Products (MVPs) in the product design process. From idea validation to scalability, Patrick shares his expertise in creating learning strategies that drive meaningful outcomes. This engaging conversation highlights the importance of feedback, iteration, and humility in both product design and leadership development.

Guest Profile

Patrick Mullarkey is the Senior Leadership Development Manager at Staffbase and an accomplished learning and leadership professional. With over 12 years of experience, he specializes in designing strategies that empower leaders and teams to excel. Passionate about bridging the gap between concept and execution, Patrick brings a wealth of knowledge on MVPs and their role in fostering innovation.

Key Takeaways

• MVPs as Testing Grounds: MVPs are essential for moving ideas from theory to practice, allowing teams to validate concepts and uncover user needs.
• The Value of Feedback: Accepting constructive criticism and iterating on it leads to better, user-aligned solutions.
• Scaling with MVPs: By testing early, teams can address scalability issues and resource requirements before full implementation.
• Leadership Training Through MVPs: Creating impactful, emotionally engaging scenarios in leadership programs is key to fostering behavioral change.

Key Questions and Insights

How would you summarize the MVP phase?

MVPs are a critical "moment of truth," transitioning ideas into practical tests to validate whether they solve real user problems.

What are examples of good and bad MVPs?

• Good: Quickly sketching ideas for immediate feedback and collaboration.
• Bad: Overly polished prototypes that discourage user engagement or fail to address alignment issues early.

How basic can an MVP be?

An MVP should go beyond static presentations to interactive prototypes that allow users to experience and engage with the concept.

Why is an MVP phase essential?

Without MVPs, teams risk wasting resources on unvalidated solutions. MVPs provide clarity on direction, scalability, and feasibility.

How do you incorporate leadership development into MVPs?

Using scenarios that evoke emotional responses helps participants practice skills in a realistic, impactful way, leading to better retention and application.

What if an MVP fails?

Failure in MVPs isn’t a setback but a learning opportunity. Acting on feedback and having a clear plan for the next steps builds trust and ensures progress.

What tools or advice can help with MVPs?

• Embrace ambiguity and view it as a sign of progress.
• Focus on the process rather than the final product.
• Use frameworks that prioritize iterative feedback and flexibility.

Chapters and Time Stamps

[00:00] – Introduction and Welcome

Greg introduces the episode and guest Patrick Mullarkey, setting the stage for a deep dive into MVPs.

[02:13] – The MVP Phase: Moving from Idea to Reality

Patrick explains the role of MVPs in bridging the gap between concepts and practical application.

[05:16] – Real-World MVP Examples

Patrick shares lessons from both successful and less effective MVPs, emphasizing the importance of alignment and feedback.

[09:54] – Overcoming Common Roadblocks

The discussion highlights challenges like over-polished prototypes, misaligned teams, and stakeholder disagreements.

[13:59] – What Makes a Good MVP?

Key characteristics of effective MVPs include user interaction, actionable feedback, and practical testing.

[19:15] – Leadership Development and MVPs

Patrick explores how leadership training programs benefit from MVP methodologies, focusing on emotional engagement and practice.

[24:17] – Responding to Feedback and Scaling Insights

Why it’s crucial to remain humble, iterate, and plan for scalability after testing MVPs.

[36:20] – Tools and Strategies for MVP Success

Practical advice for navigating ambiguity, focusing on process, and leveraging user insights to improve products.

About the Podcast

The Product Design For Learning Podcast delves into the art and science of designing learning experiences that drive results. Hosted by Greg Arthur, the show features expert guests who share actionable insights on product design, leadership development, and user-centered strategies. Whether you’re a designer, educator, or leader, this podcast offers valuable takeaways to elevate your work.

Subscribe to the Product Design For Learning Podcast and join the conversation today!

Episode Summary

In this episode of the Product Design for Learning Podcast, host Greg Arthur is joined by Toby Kheng to discuss the provocative topic, "The End of L&D." They explore the challenges, limitations, and future possibilities of Learning and Development (L&D) as it currently operates within organisations. Toby argues for a systemic overhaul, where L&D evolves into a more holistic "employee experience design" function, integrating insights from HR, internal communications, and beyond.

Key themes include the role of data, the value of product and service design in learning, and the imperative to break down silos for more effective and engaging employee solutions.

Guest Profile

Toby Kheng

With over 14 years in L&D, Toby is a thought leader passionate about transforming organisational learning. He co-founded Freeformers, focusing on innovative, human-centred approaches to employee experience design. Toby’s expertise spans L&D, internal communications, and organisational strategy.

Key Takeaways

What is wrong with the traditional L&D model?

L&D often functions in a silo, designing training that validates its existence rather than addressing broader organisational needs. This narrow focus leads to duplication, inefficiency, and missed opportunities to impact engagement, productivity, and profitability.

How can L&D adopt a product and service design mindset?

• Treat employment as a product, designing for the entire employee journey.
• Borrow frameworks from customer experience design, such as human-centred design and design thinking.
• Break down silos between HR, internal communications, and recruitment to create cohesive employee experiences.

What is the role of data in the future of L&D?

Toby highlights the need for consistent, meaningful data collection across departments to inform decision-making. Without integrated insights from recruitment, HR, and internal comms, L&D operates in an informational vacuum.

Why is collaboration across departments critical?

Getting stakeholders like HR, recruitment, and communications into one room can reveal overlaps, reduce duplication, and spark innovative solutions. The future of L&D lies in its ability to lead this integration.

What’s next for L&D in the next 10-20 years?

• By 2030: Incremental improvements with AI and tech adoption but largely within the current framework.
• By 2040: Transformation driven by small-to-medium businesses adopting holistic employee experience models, influencing larger corporations to follow suit.

Chapters and Time Stamps

[00:00] – Introduction: The Clickbait Title

Greg introduces the podcast and Toby, setting the stage for the discussion on the potential "end" of L&D.

[01:00] – What’s Broken in L&D?

Toby shares his critiques of traditional L&D models and the limitations of siloed functions.

[02:30] – Evolution or Revolution?

Greg and Toby debate whether the future of L&D is a gradual evolution or a complete overhaul.

[05:30] – Applying Product and Service Design to L&D

Toby explains how frameworks like human-centred design and the double diamond can transform learning initiatives.

[12:00] – The Role of Data in Employee Experience Design

How can L&D leverage data from across the business to create better solutions?

[20:00] – Breaking Down Silos: Why Collaboration Matters

Insights into building bridges between departments to improve the overall employee journey.

[35:00] – The Future of L&D: Predictions for 2030 and Beyond

What will L&D look like in 10-20 years, and who are the real "saviours" of the industry?

[1:05:00] – Final Advice for L&D Professionals

Toby’s practical advice for those looking to implement change within their organisations.

About the Podcast

The Product Design for Learning Podcast explores the intersection of learning, design, and technology. Hosted by Greg Arthur, the show features thought leaders and innovators who share actionable insights to help organisations create more impactful employee experiences.

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L&D Data Rock: Key Strategies for Real Impact | Ep. 2

Episode Summary

In this episode of Product Design for Learning, host Greg Arthur talks with Bo Duery, Impact Lead at Lepaya, about the pivotal role of data in designing and measuring learning programs. Bo shares insights from his journey from chemical engineering to Learning & Development (L&D), discussing why data should be an integral part of the design process. From setting actionable goals to using qualitative and quantitative methods, Bo shares strategies to help L&D professionals gather, analyze, and leverage data effectively.

Guest Profile

Name: Bo Duery

Title: Impact Lead at Lepaya

Background: Bo’s career began in chemical engineering and operational improvement before transitioning into L&D, where he emphasizes data-driven decision-making for soft skills training and performance enhancement. His approach combines analytical rigor with empathy for the learner experience, advocating for data that both informs and inspires impactful learning solutions.

Key Takeaways

• Understanding Data’s Role: Data isn’t just numbers; it’s a tool for deeper insights into learner needs and program effectiveness.
• The Value of Observation: Observing people in their work environments provides context beyond raw data, uncovering practical challenges and learning gaps.
• Setting Realistic Goals: Establishing three key levels—organizational goals, audience needs, and program specifics—ensures clear alignment from the start.
• Balancing Qualitative and Quantitative Data: Combining surveys and interviews creates a balanced view, capturing both measurable outcomes and nuanced experiences.
• Iterative Analysis: Regular reflection on data helps teams adapt quickly, making data analysis a continuous, rather than a one-time, process.
• Using Gut Feeling Cautiously: While instincts can be valuable, they should be backed by data, especially in team settings where opinions vary.

Questions Asked

What led you to focus on data in the field of learning and development?

Bo shares his journey from operational improvement in industries like manufacturing and healthcare to his current role in L&D. He discusses how his experiences underscored the importance of tracking and measuring performance, which led him to advocate for data-informed learning strategies.

How do you define the role of data in the product design process?

Bo describes data as the investigative phase in design, where stakeholders align on questions, gather evidence, and distill insights. He emphasizes that data is essential in building a strong foundation, guiding teams before solutions are even considered.

How do you suggest approaching data collection in a learning project?

Bo recommends starting with a clear understanding of organizational goals, the audience’s needs, and program objectives. He advises a tiered approach that explores organizational impact, individual behaviors, and specific program details, using both qualitative and quantitative methods for a complete view.

What methods do you use for gathering data and understanding learning behaviors?

Bo emphasizes the value of in-person observation, shadowing, and direct interaction with learners to contextualize data. He advocates for exploring qualitative insights before relying solely on quantitative metrics, balancing the numbers with real-world context.

How can teams know if they have gathered “enough” data?

Bo advises balancing data collection with time and budget constraints. He suggests that confidence in presenting findings, especially to senior stakeholders, is a good indicator of having sufficient data.

How do you balance data with stakeholder instincts and gut feelings?

Bo discusses the importance of involving stakeholders early to gather their perspectives, which can help guide data collection. He notes that instincts often stem from experience, and blending these insights with data can create more informed decision-making.

What are some common mistakes when working with data in L&D, and how can they be avoided?

Reflecting on his own journey, Bo discusses early mistakes of being too rigorous and treating L&D as an exact science. He now advises a flexible approach that respects the complexities of learning, advocating for simpler, actionable insights over exhaustive data collection.

What tools or activities do you recommend for making the data phase effective?

Bo suggests tools like stakeholder check-ins, data affinity mapping, and regular reflection sessions. He highlights the importance of simplifying data insights on one slide, creating a “big picture” view that aligns with program goals.

Chapters and Time Stamps

[00:01] – Introduction to Bo Duery and the Importance of Data

Greg introduces Bo, who shares his background and explains why data is central to effective learning programs.

[02:21] – Defining Data in the Product Design Process

Bo discusses how data acts as an investigative and alignment tool, bringing clarity before solutions are crafted.

[04:42] – Tackling Challenges in L&D Data Collection

Bo reflects on challenges in L&D with data collection, especially in organizations unfamiliar with this approach.

[06:01] – Building a Three-Tiered Approach to Data Collection

Bo shares his framework of aligning data with organizational goals, audience needs, and program objectives.

[08:56] – Observing Learners in Their Environments

Bo discusses the benefits of direct observation and qualitative research to understand real-world learning challenges.

[12:12] – Knowing When You Have Enough Data

The hosts discuss balancing thoroughness with practicality, including when to rely on “gut feeling” in decision-making.

[20:13] – Analyzing Data and Recognizing Patterns

Greg and Bo discuss methods for analyzing data, including affinity mapping and using group insights to spot patterns.

[26:55] – Advice for Overcoming Data Collection Challenges

Bo provides advice for teams new to data collection, recommending curiosity and stakeholder engagement as essential starting points.

[38:45] – Tools and Techniques for Effective Data Use in L&D

Bo shares practical tools and techniques, from maintaining stakeholder relationships to simplifying data insights.

[43:15] – Closing Remarks and Resources for Further Learning

Bo gives a shout-out to influential researchers and offers to connect with listeners on LinkedIn.

About the Podcast

The Product Design for Learning podcast delves into the intricacies of creating effective, data-informed learning experiences. Each episode features expert guests who share insights, tools, and strategies for designing impactful learning solutions. Host Greg Arthur engages with leaders in the field, offering listeners practical advice on everything from the design process to implementation, helping L&D professionals enhance their skills and drive organizational impact.

Episode Summary

In this episode of the Product Design for Learning Podcast, host Greg Arthur speaks with Arash Mazanani, a dynamic learning leader from Aggreko, about the critical Understand Phase in product design, particularly in the context of learning solutions. They dive into the importance of this phase, which involves thoroughly exploring problems and defining requirements before moving into solution-building. Arash shares his insights on how to guide stakeholders, ask the right questions, and ensure that learning products meet both business objectives and employee needs.

Arash Rezeai-Mazanani Profile

Arash Rezeai-Mazanani is a learning professional with over a decade of experience in FTSE 100 and private equity companies. He specialises in leadership development, global transformation, and human-centred design. His approach centres on experimentation and disruptive thinking to create meaningful, business-aligned solutions that address employee challenges.

Key Take-Aways

• The Understand Phase serves as a North Star, helping guide teams by clarifying project goals and focusing efforts.
• Asking the right questions during this phase is critical to uncovering the real problem behind requests.
• Arash stresses the importance of curiosity and using techniques like the Toyota "5 Whys" to dig deep into stakeholders' needs.
• Starting with what people need to do rather than what they need to know ensures that learning solutions are practical and impactful.
• Stakeholder management is key: defining who should be involved and why helps streamline projects and avoid late-stage derailments.
• Don’t rush the Understand Phase; it's vital to get a comprehensive understanding before moving to the next phase.

Questions Asked

What is the Instagram vs Reality version of your professional bio?

Arash explains how everyone has a "swanky" version of their job title but emphasises the daily challenges professionals face, including doubt and striving for improvement.

How would you summarise the Understand Phase and why is it important?

Arash describes the Understand Phase as a guiding force that provides direction and clarity. Without defining the problem, projects risk scope creep or lack of focus.

How do you approach vague project requests or specific demands?

Arash emphasises curiosity and asking lots of questions to really get to the heart of the problem. Understanding assumptions and the true drivers behind requests is essential.

What happens when stakeholders come in late to a project?

Arash advises avoiding this by ensuring key stakeholders are involved from the start. He shares strategies for addressing late-stage interventions if they occur.

How do you manage stakeholder expectations and involvement?

Arash discusses the importance of identifying stakeholders with clear roles and responsibilities. Keeping stakeholder groups tight helps avoid unnecessary delays and misalignment.

How do you ensure you’ve covered everything in the Understand Phase before moving forward?

Arash stresses the importance of asking whether all aspects of the problem have been fully explored, using the "think, feel, do" model to make sure no stone is left unturned.

How do you prevent people from jumping to solutions too early?

Arash suggests encouraging stakeholders to share all their ideas upfront, then parking those ideas until the appropriate phase. This allows for a more focused problem-solving approach.

What advice would you give to someone struggling with the Understand Phase?

Arash recommends staying curious, enjoying the journey, and making the Understand Phase a non-negotiable step in the process. He also highlights the value of defining metrics to know if a problem is real.

Chapters and Time Stamps

[00:00] – Introduction to Arash Mazanani and Episode Overview

[03:30] – The Importance of the Understand Phase in Product Design

[05:04] – Arash’s Approach to Managing Project Requests

[07:30] – Stakeholder Involvement and Common Pitfalls

[10:04] – Handling Late Stakeholders in Projects

[15:30] – Problem Definition: Challenges and Insights

[20:49] – How to Know When to Move to the Next Phase

[26:05] – Focusing on the “Do” in Think-Feel-Do

[34:13] – Managing Early Solutions and Idea Overload

[40:33] – Advice for Struggling with the Understand Phase

[48:17] – How Long Should You Spend in the Understand Phase?

About the Podcast

Product Design for Learning is a podcast dedicated to exploring the intersection of product design and learning. 

Each episode features experts who share their insights on creating effective learning experiences that align with both business goals and user needs. 

Hosted by Greg Arthur, the podcast covers topics like human-centred design, performance consulting, and leadership development in the corporate learning space.