In the conversation Katherine tells Masabi’s co-founder why transit operators need to concentrate on what they’re good at, and not get distracted by things they would be better off buying in: “To me, the purpose of public transit is to provide transportation and that is our realm,” she explains. “Do public transit really want to get into journey planning complex apps, or fare payment or all of these other things in the name of being able to control it, where you could be partnering with other companies whose whole business is doing this?”

 Also, she tells us about her international travel, how she's found traveling in London, the benefits of Open Payments, and how she doesn't want to go toe to toe and compete with Google Maps or Transit app, when trying to make public transit available.  “Keeping up with that technology is expensive and time-consuming,” she says.  “And so for any transit agency, to try and take that on, to me is ridiculous, because we'll never have the funding to be able to go toe to toe with Google Maps.”

 Katherine explains why she thinks cities should focus on providing easy, contactless payment options instead of investing in complex, customized fare systems and simplifying fares to make transit more accessible. You’ll also hear her and Ben’s thoughts on how to ensure transit agencies don't compete with each other and utilise solutions such as central call centers to ensure they operate as efficiently as possible. You’ll also hear why her boondoggle is the revenue versus capital expenditure funding conundrum.

Meep, a digital solution that connects various transportation services, is the brainchild of Guillermo Campoamor. His unexpected journey into transport technology was ignited by his frequent travels in the wine industry and the challenges he faced with inconsistent transportation systems. His passion for transforming the sector is palpable as he shares his story.

“In some cities, I managed to cover all my appointments and meetings, basically cover the agenda, as I previously planned for every trip, and in some other cities was the total opposite experience,” he explains.  “I had to reschedule tastings, I had to meet with clients on different days, and even extend my trips. So I was wondering, why on earth is this happening? And mostly it was due to a lack of public transport or inefficient transport patterns. And that's why I decided to start my own journey in transportation.”

He and Ben delve into the pressing need for a cultural shift towards more efficient and sustainable transportation modes. They underline the importance of accurate real-time information, accessibility, and connecting different data sources. The discussion also brings to light the urgent need for sustainable mobility solutions in cities, particularly for big corporations with many workers who commute.

Take a trip around the world as the transit offerings in Bangkok, Singapore, Hong Kong along with Mexico, Malta, Moscow and Madrid are all analyzed, and the ability to turn data into information is vital:

 “One of the things we realized in the early days that the big transport operators, the ones that are doing even more than a million trips per day, they have information scattered, all over the place,” Guillermo adds.  “They are getting some information from the end users, but they're also getting information from the validation machines, they're getting information from the cameras, so they have like maybe like five, four or six different channels that they need to also make sense together and put into context.”

Tune in to discover how Guillermo and his team at Meep are making transportation more efficient and sustainable, and enjoy the lively debate between guest and host on Guillermo’s choice of Boondoggle.

 India, who took the helm of GCRTA just before Covid, delves into her decision to maintain fare collection during the pandemic.  “I did not want folks to devalue the $2.50 that was paid in order to get on board our vehicle,” she says. “We understand that we help when it's needed - we’re a social service - but I didn't want to give the impression that’s free – someone pays for it”.

India Birdsong Terry sheds light on the innovative strides of GCRTA in revolutionizing the payment system. The organization is leveraging the latest technology to offer fare capping through an app: “So we're almost dangling the fair capping idea as a means to have folks get rid of the old technology in their mind that they've been promised for years, but hadn't been fully realized,” she explains, “To say, hey, you really don't need that, let's zoom ahead and get with the program on a global perspective, and be able to fair cap in another year or so.”

 The conversation then turns to the use of public transit to drive down the use of the car, especially in city centers, something Ben is very passionate about.  “Having two shops either side of a boulevard that you can't get to safely because there's no sidewalk, no bridges… six lanes to cross and it's just not a space made for people and it's killing our cities,” he comments.  “Downtown dies when you've got huge numbers of vehicle lanes stopping you wanting to be there. And it’s the complete opposite of making a nice place for people and it resulted in in shopping malls.  The shopping mall is an artificial city center where there are no cars allowed, and that's why people like hanging out in the shopping mall because they can wander around and cross from one shop to the other without cars everywhere.” 

In a very busy conversation, the episode also covers GCRTA’s efforts to enhance transit accessibility and encourage public transit usage, from extending routes to partnering with major employers. India describes their strategic approach:   “We created an RFP, a request for proposal… and we handle all of the marketing, the scheduling, all of the kind of soft services that go into transportation,” she says.  “And if an Amazon, for example, has a new plant somewhere that we don't serve, they are responsible for finding a third party operator to be able to partner with them, and they partner with us to be able to provide the shift times and they actually drive that service from our last bus stop or train stop to their front door.”

Additionally, the dialogue touches on the importance of employee benefits, including childcare, elder care, and healthcare, which India argues are essential for retaining enthusiastic staff.

Set aside 45 minutes for one of the best discussions on transit you’ll encounter this month!

Sampo and host Ben Whitaker unravel the essence of MaaS, debating whether its core lies in journey planning or payment functionalities, and draw parallels to the evolution of the telecoms market in terms of subscriptions and roaming.  

A significant portion of their discussion focuses on the competitive landscape, with Sampo pointing out that different public transport modes should not see each other as rivals but should work together.  “For MaaS to actually start thriving, we'll have to define kind of the competitive landscape in a bit of a different way,” he explains.  “20% of household costs go now into mobility, [and] 76% of that money goes into the car, and the car ownership. Now within the services industry, if we would all consider changing the paradigm of what is my competition, and if the competition is car against everything else, we would see it in a different format where it makes sense to actually collaborate in order to tap open that three quarters of the market which is blocked.”

The conversation also touches upon various subscription models tested by MaaS Global. When people are offered unrestricted MaaS, including access to a car, their car use actually falls in time as they choose public transport: “We tried for seven years with these customers having unlimited - so they have unlimited taxis, unlimited cars, unlimited public transport, everything unlimited.  And surprise, surprise, their modal split was always going up with public transport.”

Despite differing views on the importance of a single payment system within MaaS, Sampo and Ben concur that investing public funds in city-specific MaaS solutions, which compete against established transit planners, may not be the most effective use of resources. This episode of Transit Voices offers a deep dive into the challenges and opportunities within the MaaS ecosystem, providing a comprehensive look at its potential to transform urban mobility.

In the conversation with Masabi co-founder Ben Whitaker, Carlos explains why car schemes always seem to get the investment instead of public transit. “Many times, we see the large investments in roads, because they're incredibly expensive, and that is pretty clear to people in transportation” he says. “But then people who have the voice in the media, and in policy, and even in Congress, they are people who are either riding a car all day or most of the time, or would like to.”

We also get the real story behind some of the projects like Bogota’s BRT bike parks, former Bogota Mayor Enrique Peñalosa’s quotation on real developed cities having the bankers on the bus, and a few of the really gnarly problems about safety, getting people on to public transport in more dangerous areas. Carlos gives an interesting insight to the issue in Bogata: “BRT is the safest way to move in Bogota, in terms of road safety,” says.  “The worst way to travel in Bogota is walking, sadly, going by motorbike, then riding a bicycle. So public transport is incredibly safe in terms of road safety, [but] getting to the buses, not so safe.”

You’ll also hear about why road tunnels are a boondoggle in urban transportation, and why Carlos thinks cargo bikes are a big underdog in cities.

“One of the biggest issues I think, is that when you work within an agency, you are beset by all of the internal requirements about what something needs to do, as opposed to focusing on what the rider needs, as you should be,” he says.

David, who lives a car-free life, explains how traditional thinking in transit has been an issue, because sometimes the technology in the vehicle costs the same as the vehicle itself.

“We were running these Mercedes Sprinter vans around Boston,” he tells host Ben Whitaker. “We were trying to figure out how you would pay for fare in an integrated way, and the only way they could figure out how to do it was to put a farebox on this Mercedes Sprinter van. Well, the problem was that the fare box actually cost more than the vehicle.”

The episode also delves into broader topics like Mobility as a Service, open payments, the integration of bikes and various transit modes, and the MBTA’s Charlie 2.0 procurement.

You’ll also hear why driver split shifts are David’s boondoggle, while his underdog is investing in staff capability and training.

They dive into the critical role of data in transforming transit services and how agencies can pivot from providing standard services to those actually desired by passengers.

“I've felt like there has always been a friction between the riders and what is being offered,” says Satinder, “which makes it totally inconvenient. So that was indeed the one key element for us to solve as part of TransSIGHT.”

Satinder and Ben discuss the difference between providing products which an agency uses to fulfil its needs, or customized solutions, which take much more work to provide based on an agency’s wish list and how to move towards products.

This will happen “Only if the agencies start to look to procure something more like a solution,” says Ben. “Because I think the habits in the industry… and the cost of a procurement process, makes people feel that they've got to fill everything on their Christmas list in, if Christmas only comes once every ten years. The tendency to fill out all possible requirements for the next five to 10 years means it's very hard to get a productized solution, and it almost always results in something customized.”

In their conversation, they also discuss APIs, how the US might catch up and even overtake Europe when it comes to new ways of paying for transit, and the procurement for small businesses. You’ll also hear why, when it comes to Satinder’s boondoggle, it has to be Chat GPT.

In this program, he tells host Ben Whitaker about the challenges in setting up the site because, as he puts it “until 2007 the industry in many ways wasn't ready for it.” Discover the blend of online transactions and fax communications that marked the early days of digital ticketing, facilitating passengers to have their tickets printed at specific stations

 “A lot of that first decade was the heavy engineering,” he explains, “How can you build a Journey Planner that takes all these feeds and within a few seconds can give you some journey results?”

The conversation about journey planning deepens as Richard talks about how even now, planners do not take into account the real world, “They'll either try and get you on the bus all the way from door to door, which will probably look slow and unappealing, or they'll give you a driving option where they assume that you'll be able to park on the pavement right outside the office that you're going to and completely ignore the issue that you'll end up parked in a multi-story a mile away from where you're going and still have a miles walk at the end of your journey,” he says.  Ben agrees, commenting “Some of the data feeds you're now consuming to find those buses and shuttles and everything else aren't fit for purpose yet, because nobody's really used them and you find out that they're wrong or out of date,” he says. “And that's hard, hard, hard work, and someone somewhere has to pay for it.” 

The discussion takes a fascinating turn toward monetizing journey planning and the allure of Mobility as a Service for some companies. While that’s a snippet to leave you hooked, this episode also unfolds discussions on contactless pay-as-you-go systems, fare policies, compensation, revenue management, and the gaps that exist in the current transit framework. Tune in to this engaging episode of Transit Voices to explore the evolution of online ticketing and the myriad dimensions of journey planning in the modern transit landscape.

Our spotlight guest is Jerome Horne, a notable “new urbanist” from TransitCenter, a foundation devoted to enhancing public transit across US cities by introducing innovative design ideas for both urban spaces and their transit systems.

In the podcast, Jerome tells host Ben Whitaker how he’s always been interested in transit, so much so that at the age of ten he wrote to the CEO of the transit system in his home city of Baltimore asking how he could get his job when he grew up.

“When I was younger, I was just playing with model train sets, maybe watching Thomas the Tank Engine,” Jerome says.  “My dad gave me an early copy of the game Sim City, and so you know, there was a fascination there.”

Speaking on the “new urbanists” movement, Jerome delves into the importance of creating cities that prioritize liveability, emphasizing the pivotal role of efficient transport systems. “It is encouraging, we are seeing more focus on the rise of urbanism - just the concept of a walkable place become more mainstream,” he says.  “What we're talking about is people, regardless of demographic, socio ideology, even political positioning.  A lot of people just like to go to a place where they can walk. This is really key to the future and how do we figure out how to orientate cities around humans.”

Jerome discusses the need to reduce parking provision so that more people are encouraged to take public transit, but also to educate them about the options.  “Some people are just either unexperienced or they're just ignorant about taking public transit,” he says.  “And I don't mean ignorant in the sense that’s a bad thing, but because there hasn't been good public education campaign.  There are simple barriers sometimes that get in the way of deciding to make a different choice, so some of that is just a marketing and education campaign to show people they only live five minutes away from a bus route that runs every ten minutes, and takes you where you like to go on the weekends.”

The conversation extends to concepts like the 15-minute cities, carrot and stick, and targeting people ready and willing to change their travel habits.  You’ll also discover why the so-called Tesla Tunnels are Jerome’s boondoggle.

The two guests explain how they have taken their agency all the way from basic ticketing through mobile ticketing barcodes, Account-Based Ticketing, cards, fare capping, and cash digitization, all the while recognizing that since COVID, transit agencies are not just about running 40-foot buses, but about providing mobility solutions to the entire community.

Miguel explains how offering new, more customer-focused ticketing options only works when the customer is properly engaged and understands that new ways of paying for transit are in their interest.  “We really spent a lot of time communicating and providing hands-on education and training opportunities with our customers right at the transit center in front of our ticket vending machines and our customer service desk,” he tells Ben, “Just helping allay any of those concerns or those points of anxiety: am I buying the right fare for what I need?”

He adds that if you get it right, you get greater ridership and traveler satisfaction, explaining: “Let's stop making transit something that is a hardship, or it's just difficult, or there are challenges or barriers to using transit - we want to make it as easy as possible.”

Meanwhile,  Chris talks about simplifying the method of identification for transit payments to eliminate another obstacle to boarding the bus, revealing,  “by leveraging their employee IDs, their student IDs, their whatever it may be, so that it doesn't become a secondary item that they have to keep on themselves,” he says.  “It's just an item that is standardized to their employment or as a student becomes an item that they can utilize for transportation.”

In the fascinating conversation, you’ll also hear their views on why AI is both a boondoggle and an opportunity for the industry, and Miguel’s advice to their counterparts in the transit industry to become completely customer-focussed: “We are going through a transformation as an industry, where we don't think of ourselves just as a 40-foot bus going up and down the street anymore,” he says. “And so how do we become that next type of organization or industry that serves the customers’ expectations? I would encourage companies like Masabi and others that we need to get to a point where we know, just like many other industries know, who their customers are. The anonymity of our customers is still a big issue. ”

 Carol shares her insights with Transit Voices host Ben Whitaker, delving into her extensive analysis of various international MaaS experiments. She observed, "There are many, many deployments that ended when the pilot project ended, there was no reason to keep them operating. The results were sketchy."

Addressing earlier podcast guests' critiques of MaaS as an overpromised and underdelivered service nominated for being the boondoggle in transit, Schweiger and Whitaker examine the potential of autonomous vehicles to revolutionize our dependence on private cars.

Carol posits, "If I can summon a vehicle, use that vehicle, and either have it go back to where it is needed, somewhere else by itself, or whatever, I think that is a utopian vision of where MaaS could go.”

This episode also shines a light on Schweiger's personal motivations, positioning her as a unique figure in her field – a transit professional who had always dreamt of becoming one.   “Many of my colleagues ended up in public transit purely by accident,” she says. “But for me, it was actually planned. It started when I was around eight or nine years old. I was at my grandparents in Brooklyn who lived quite near a subway station, where there was a pedestrian-only bridge that went over the subway tracks.  I would literally spend hours standing on that bridge, watching the subways go in and out of that station, there was just something so fascinating about that when I was a little girl.”

 In a conversation with Masabi co-founder Ben Whitaker, Paul, in his role as SVP and Chief Customer Officer at Modaxo Americas, talks about the need to improve inclusion and representation in transit.

In a riveting dialogue with Masabi co-founder Ben Whitaker, Paul highlights the potential of transit as a "vehicle - pun intended" for promoting equity and inclusion within our communities. Drawing from his acclaimed book Conversations on Equity and Inclusion in Public Transportation, he highlights conversations with 20 top-ranking transit officials from the US and Australia, showcasing the real-world steps they are taking to better their services. and provide more equity and inclusion both in their agencies and the communities they serve.

Paul explains how the pandemic, which saw transit play a vital role in getting key blue-collar workers to their jobs while white-collar professionals worked from home, revolutionized our perspective on transit.  “Traditionally [the industry has] just been more riders, more riders, more riders. But the pandemic said, wait a minute, no, we can do more than that. What came out of the pandemic, [was] a closer connection with our customer… I felt like there are so many leaders doing so many great things when it came to equity inclusion, I should highlight that.”

Paul and Ben also discuss how those who deliver transit must ride the services they provide, with Ben commenting, “To find that there are people who were taking the decisions on public transit and did not ride public transit was a bit of a surprise to us,” and Paul replying that younger CEOs of transit agencies are far more likely to, explaining: “I just did a panel with eight brand new CEOs at our Think Transit conference in Nashville about a month ago. They are under one year on the job, and it's almost become de rigueur now where they're all riding their service, they get it. The new CEOs - a lot of them are car-free, or one-car families, not two-car families.”

The conversation doesn't stop there. They also ponder on fare-free vs. frequent transit services, the contribution of ride-hailing to plug transit gaps, the advent of hydrogen fuels, and even how Paul got up close and personal with transportation industry CEOs to share their favorite recipes!

In a conversation with Masabi co-founder Ben Whitaker, Jennie highlights the communication gap between the transit sector and its customers. “I do feel very strongly that we in the sector, do not communicate with the people who, at the end of the day, are our customers,” Jennie says.  “We're slightly different in the bus sector, but in big chunks of the transport sector, you are directly spending taxpayers’ money, but we seem to take almost a lofty attitude that we shouldn't communicate with these people, or if we do communicate, we communicate in our own language and through our own channels, instead of communicating in their language and through their channels.”

Ben paraphrases Terry Pratchett by saying that a lie will have gone around the world before the truth has got its boots on, with Jennie pointing out that in many debates about transport policy “the person who's being mildly inconvenienced seems to be far louder”.

Jennie also sheds light on the issue of safety on buses, referring to a recent report in Scotland on women's safety and their perception of safety. “I think we have a really good understanding of what works,” Jennie says “[A bus stop] needs to be well lit, if it's been vandalized, which sadly does happen, that needs to be fixed pretty quickly. The issue with safety on transit is not just of you actually being attacked or assaulted - it's also the perception. If you feel unsafe, that makes it a really unpleasant experience, and you're far less likely to use that mode, you'll do something else. So the stop needs to be well lit and in good condition, and it needs to be placed in a sensible position.”

Jennie and Ben also discuss rural transportation, acknowledging that policies can't be the same as those in major urban centers. Furthermore, Jennie emphasizes the need to involve a more diverse workforce in transit design. Finally, they explore Jennie's interesting ideas on addressing the digital divide, which provides plenty of food for thought.

In the conversation, Dal talks about a customer-centric approach explaining, “We used to think the customer's never really at the heart of it, it was all about the operation and getting the vehicle on the road and the passenger would have to put up with whatever ticketing option was there regardless of how intimidating, awkward or inconvenient. Whereas the beauty of bus travel should be, you don't have to think about it.”

Dal’s explains how in her years working in transit, there was no innovation at all from paper passes, but then in 2016, she oversaw the introduction of mobile ticketing and then contactless EMV. In this month’s podcast, she not only explains how bus ticketing has led to an unexpected way of encouraging more students to turn up to class, and why technology has delivered increases in ridership as people have got more comfortable with ticket pricing and the ease of quick boarding, but also her passion for getting more women into the industry, and making everyone feel safer traveling at night.

“I've got two daughters,” she explains. “They travel by bus and as the evening approaches, you become anxious if they're not home, or how are they going to get home... You've been almost a paranoid parent, but it's because you see and you hear things that it isn't safe for you to travel. That's the bit that I want to address - getting like-minded women together to influence those decisions, and guide those decisions and almost through their lived experiences.”

You’ll also hear why another Transit Voices guest thinks Mobility as a Service is a Boondoggle that should be put in Room 101, and that Dal sticks with the safety theme when discussing her underdog – apps that make the journey safer.

In this episode, Ben and Andy discuss how any technological innovations in ticketing must have the passenger at the center, “It's about the consumer at the end of the day, and what the consumer is going to use and what they the consumer actually wants,” explains Andy.  “I think there's a lot of us within the technology space, and to a certain degree, there's quite a few agencies as well, who are more concerned about optimizing the technology or optimizing the operations or reducing the cost here or making something else more efficient. But at the end of the day, we all should be looking at it from the perspective of the end user who's tapping onto that system, who actually wants to be able to travel. How should we make that as easy as possible? How do we make it cost comparable, no matter what sort of payment solution you're looking for?”

The two talk about delivering off-the-shelf ticketing solutions that work for any sized agency, so that even the smallest can take advantage of technology to the benefit of travelers, “There are now platform solutions which allow them to access something that has already got all those bits figured out and won’t need reinventing,” comments Ben, while Andy says a menu of options that suits the agency is the way forward, explaining, “They are getting the best options that they want and the flexibility that they need to be able to build a system that they think is going to deliver what they need for their citizens.”

The pair lament problems with procurement meaning some great solutions have not been implemented, while Andy explains why different banking costs around the world have a major effect on the take-up of open payments and why his underdog is a mobility ID, that would allow a traveler to use public transit wherever they are without having to sign up to a different solution in a different city.

In this episode, Ben and Mike discuss how the industry has seen new leaders in adopting the latest ticketing technology.  “I've seen a sea change in that over the past five, seven years or so a lot of the smaller and mid-size agencies are now pushing the industry forward,” Mike explains, putting it down to better collaboration. “The smaller agencies are more likely to collaborate.  Something that I saw as a real big hindrance in the larger agencies, where everybody had their little fiefdoms.”

When it comes to embracing new techniques, Mike and Ben agree that risks need to be taken, and experts within an agency’s own teams need to be listened to.  “We're paying these people, in some cases, a heck of a lot of money, for their experience and insights, we need to trust them to make decisions,” Mike continues, “and that oftentimes does not exist in these larger agencies. But again, I do sense that that's changing - some of the old guard is leaving and retiring, and I think some of the new folks coming up, have a different idea about how to deal with people.”

Mike gives some forthright opinions on procurement and not being too prescriptive, and picking the right battles when it comes to Intellectual Property.  He also explains why the legacy process-centric professional is his boondoggle, and why his underdog is collaboration.  “If you have a collaborative spirit and organization more than nine times out of 10, you are going to be very, very successful,” he advises.

 In this episode, you’ll hear Renee and Ben talk about effective uses of artificial intelligence and image processing to improve public transit, including how enforcing BRT lanes using AI processing of images from camera systems on some buses led to a 14% improvement in on-time performance and what effect that has on transit operators.

 “When you think about things like needing to pay overtime for an operator who gets delayed on a route, potentially being able to reduce by one or two the buses that you would need, because they're not getting clogged and bunching together on the route, you can really come up with operational cost savings,” Renee explains. “[That’s] in addition to providing a better customer experience for riders by having them not be delayed in the way that sometimes can happen when the bus is stuck in traffic and unable to move because they're being blocked by an illegally-parked car.”

 Renee tells Ben of some of her favorite techniques used to improve transit, while the pair also discuss how reducing fares or making transit free is not the silver bullet that some policymakers may think.  “I think for the most part, focusing on increasing the frequency of the routes, the number of the routes and improving the way that the routes operate is gonna resonate a lot more and bring more riders than just making something free,” she says.

 There’s also a plea to those who work in transit to use the transit system they administer. 

 “I have never run across someone who works full time in bike planning or operations that doesn't also ride a bike, enjoy riding a bike, want to advocate for it in their personal life,” she says, before going on to say she thought the same would happen when she started working in transit, thinking, “everyone I meet is going to be like a big nerd who rides the bus and I'm going to find my people… and the shock of the number of people in the industry, including transit agencies, who don't regularly or sometimes even occasionally ride the service, I think is a reason that the service performs poorly.”

 You’ll also find out why Renee’s boondoggle is sidewalk robots, while her industry underdog is mobility hubs.

Have a listen to this 30-minute discussion to understand how building transit into neighborhood activity and life activity is going to make it easier for people to live life, car-free or at least car-optional.

Here's what you'll hear in this episode: The two talk about removing all cash from buses and the benefits that it has brought them. "Being a medium-sized agency, we're able to be a little bit more nimble," Brandon explains. "But I think, for us, at the end of the day, it was about how we viewed accepting cash as being able to deliver less equitable services. While some see cash and taking it away as an equity issue, particularly in the transit sphere, I learned through research that cash was really creating an inequity, when you look at it from the standpoint of account-based payments and fare capping."

Not only did removing cash allow for more riders to benefit from the best fares, but Ben comments on how removing phisical payments on board gives more reliable services too. 

"In the United Kingdom, Preston buses ran a time trial where they analyzed how many customers they could get onto the vehicle with them paying in cash as they boarded, and how many people they could get on the bus in a given time if they were either using cards or mobile phones or paper tickets or anything else," he explains. "And they found it was an average of two seconds a person to board with a pre-purchased ticket of pretty much any sort, and about 15 seconds to board people on average who are chatting to the driver and paying with cash. So there was a ten-to-fifteen second speed up per passenger in getting them to not pay in cash."

Beyond ticketing, Brandon explains how GDRTA's electric buses have full coverage of the service area. "We just replaced that entire fleet of 45 vehicles, and we operate several lines over 120 miles of overhead trolley, electric infrastructure," he explains."  That's a pretty cool, unique aspect here of Dayton, but getting our assets in a state of good repair, while it was a challenge, I believe we're successful at it, which puts us in a great position now."

You'll also find out why Brandon's boondoggle is autonomous vehicles, while he thinks the industry's underdog remains account-based ticketing.

Have a listen to this 40-minute discussion to understand how agencies in the USA can now take heart that removing cash is possible, and can improve equity and get people away from the more expensive single fares.

Here’s what you’ll hear in this episode: the two talk about Simon’s ideas on blockchain, cryptocurrency and transit, as well as his work, bringing contactless EMV to TfL and some of the big agencies and the savings that they could achieve there. They then switch topics to Simon's recently published research about the savings transit agencies can achieve by moving to shared fare payments platforms rather than bespoke design-build-operate-maintain systems.

Simon suggests that Central Bank Digital Currencies (CBDC) are further away from adoption than we might think, commenting, “We spend a bit of time sort of looking at future technologies and road mapping where they fit in terms of when one should pay attention to them, and I think there are other payment initiatives coming along that we can get excited about way before we get excited about blockchain and CBDCs in a transit space.  I've put CBDCs and digital currencies in a sort of five to 10-year window from now, rather than something that we need to worry about in the short term.”

Ben agrees and points out that the technologies are far from a low-carbon solution explaining that they “consume an obscene quantity of energy, not only in the generation of the initial tokens but in the recording of new transactions, such that all of the carbon saving benefits of using public transport could be immediately offset if there was any blockchain involvement in either stamping and processing the ticket used or in the retail of it using it as currency.”

The pair talk about the implementation of contactless ticketing solutions and how Transport for London (TfL) led the way in making it the normal way for people to pay for transit travel, and they also discuss why the adoption of new payment technologies can only really have a positive effect when legacy payment systems can be removed, such as removing cash boxes from vehicles.

You’ll also find out why Simon’s boondoggle is Mobility-as-a-Service, while he thinks APIs are the industry’s underdog. The whole conversation is 40 minutes you’ll be glad you’ve listened to.

 The two talk about removing fare boxes from bus fleets and why the removal of some forms of passenger payment options is required to ensure maximum efficiency when introducing new options. “Some things need to disappear that you previously been doing,” David comments, “Otherwise, you're just wearing one payment technology on top of another. So if you don't take some things away, you're not actually reducing the cost of payment for the agency.”

Ben agrees, but adds that removing cash payments on buses isn’t just about cost savings, but speeding up passenger boarding times. “Preston bus in the United Kingdom did an assessment on the boarding speed on a bus for passengers who are buying with cash as they bought,” he explains, “and it was somewhere nine, ten, eleven, twelve seconds.  Those who were just tapping a bank card, or using a mobile ticket or any pre-purchase ticket, they were boarding in just less than two seconds.”

The advantages to this, he adds are, “phenomenal”, saying “every time the bus gets to a new stop, everybody on the bus has to wait all of those extra seconds while everybody who boards is paying in cash and it's slowing the vehicle down. If you get everybody to board with a pre-purchased ticket, whether it's a mobile ticket, or a bank card, or a pre-loaded ticket, or a receipt-paper pass bought at a convenience store network, all of them are boarding in under two seconds,” which means that the bus gets moving quicker.

During their discussion they also talk about how smaller agencies could leapfrog bigger ones in terms of using smart technology, on-demand transit and the value of Account-Based Ticketing where Ben talks about simplifying the way people pay to travel, “We've had a number of college pass systems where instead of having to issue transit agency cards, we're just reusing the ID cards issued by the college to their students, and tying their travel entitlements to their enrolment periods,” he says, while David adds that even a decade ago he knew the future would be mobile explaining, “I concluded was that we needed to put everything we could on mobile with it, and when I looked at how many corporate passes, we had big employer passes… if we didn't do that, we weren't gonna get the numbers, we weren't gonna get the utilization rates and the total counts that we needed to make this thing worthwhile. That for me, that was always a given so we and the employers were quick to say ‘perfect, because we're tired of handing out all these physical passes’.”

They also discuss which technologies they think are being overhyped, and which are not being utilized enough, and David gives his view on who should be a future guest on the show. 

Don’t miss this half-hour of discussion!